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80-90 runs better on defense?

#1 User is online   Foulkey Reese 

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 12:14 PM

QUOTE
Dewan, who pioneered the plus/minus rating system (which measures how a player stacks up defensively in terms of numbers of plays made and runs allowed compared to an average player at his position), takes a detailed look at the Sox’ 2009 performance at third base, shortstop and in center field, and compares it to the performances of newcomers Adrian Beltre, Marco Scutaro and Mike Cameron at those positions. Those changes, coupled with the move of Jacoby Ellsbury from center (where he rated as below average) to left field (where he has been above average, and replaces Jason Bay, who rated as below average at the position), will have a significant effect on the Sox.

To wit, Dewan claims that the Sox will be roughly 80-90 runs better defensively in 2010 than they were in 2009. Defensively, the team was about 52 runs worse than the average team in 2009; in 2010, the team now projects to be well above average.


Seems a bit optimistic, but I admit that I know way less about defensive stats than I would like to.

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#2 User is offline   RingoOSU 

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 12:22 PM

It's impossible for a team that allowed 736 runs to be 52 runs worse than average. If the sox were worse defensively, the pitching more than made up for it. These numbers are over calculating the effect of defense.
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Posted 13 January 2010 - 12:36 PM

QUOTE (RingoOSU @ Jan 13 2010, 12:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It's impossible for a team that allowed 736 runs to be 52 runs worse than average. If the sox were worse defensively, the pitching more than made up for it. These numbers are over calculating the effect of defense.


Well ... if Dewan believes this, I'm guessing that at least some of the F.O. have also bought into this notion as well. I agree with RIngo that it the concept is absurd, and feel that this team is more likely to allow around the same number of runs, or perhaps 20-30 fewer at most, but score 80-90 fewer runs on offense, but we shall see.

If the F.O. has bought into Dewan's +/- and has purposefully constructed the team expecting 89-90 fewer runs allowed. If nothing else, I guess, the 2010 season could end up being a great experiment in defensive metrics ...

P.S. Have I ever mentioned how much I hate defensive metrics that are calculated in runs allowed? smile.gif
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#4 User is online   URI 

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 12:45 PM

I think, unless I'm reading the context wrong, is that Dewan is using 'defense' interchangeably with 'fielding', meaning that he's talking about the fielders, not run prevention.

So the Sox were 52 runs worse than the average team at fielding, not at overall preventing runs.

It's imprecise, since defense has usually meant fielding+pitching (run prevention). Essentially, Dewan thinks that through catching the ball, the Sox are going to shave about 80 runs off their total, independent of pitching.
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#5 User is offline   pokey_reese 

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 12:49 PM

QUOTE (Vermonter At Large @ Jan 13 2010, 12:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Well ... if Dewan believes this, I'm guessing that at least some of the F.O. have also bought into this notion as well. I agree with RIngo that it the concept is absurd, and feel that this team is more likely to allow around the same number of runs, or perhaps 20-30 fewer at most, but score 80-90 fewer runs on offense, but we shall see.

If the F.O. has bought into Dewan's +/- and has purposefully constructed the team expecting 89-90 fewer runs allowed, that would be very interesting. If nothing else, I guess, the 2010 season could end up being a great experiment in defensive metrics ...


While the 80-90 number might be a little high (assume a slight decline for the 37 year old Cameron, and a return to normalcy for Scutaro who had a career year on offense and defense last year), 60+ runs of defense seems to make sense easily. Who watched the left side of this infield last year and didn't think that there was room for massive improvement? Metrics and eyeballs agree that Lowell alone was not just below average, but horrible; how many innings were extended when balls that were 6 feet to his left got by Lowell and he just looked at them sadly?

This team took 4 positions out of 7 (excluding pitcher and catcher, where fielding is the smallest component of their run prevention) and replaced below average defense with average to great defense, as well as upgraded the rotation with Lackey. While the exact number is up for debate, I am surprised that you think that the team is likely to allow roughly the same number of runs. I certainly understand taking defensive metrics with a grain of salt, but unless you think that the pitching is going to regress greatly from last year, why wouldn't this team allow significantly fewer runs even ignoring the metrics? Better defense and better pitching should equal fewer runs, right? Plus, at least in terms of the pitching, the fact that Sox pitchers had better FIPs than their actual earned run results suggests that they shouldn't regress in front of a better defense.

#6 User is offline   Arock78 

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 01:02 PM

If we take the 52 number at face-value, with an average fielding team, they'd have allowed 684 runs. The average in MLB was 747 in 2009, so it's clear he's not lumping pitching in with defense.

736-80=656, so the question is whether the team's fielding is 28-38 runs above average for 2010 (assuming no change in the league average).

edit: I'll add that run prevention is much greater in the NL than AL, so 28 runs above average in MLB would have been 115 in the AL.

This post has been edited by Arock78: 13 January 2010 - 01:06 PM

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 01:14 PM

QUOTE (Vermonter At Large @ Jan 13 2010, 12:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
P.S. Have I ever mentioned how much I hate defensive metrics that are calculated in runs allowed? smile.gif


I'm not sure if you prefer "plays made" or something like that, but ironically when Dewan first came otu with his +/- system it was based on plays instead of runs and everybody in the sabre community who is used to talking in terms of runs threw a fit. Dewan's move towards Defensive Runs Saved (or whatever he's calling it) is only because of that feedback.

#8 User is offline   smastroyin 

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 01:31 PM

Without going into the details of +/-, just looking at simple defensive efficiency gives us a clue that there is a lot of room for improvement year over year.

Defensive efficiency is basically 1-BABIP.

2007 .714
2008 .708
2009 .687

You can argue about the difficulty of the balls hit in every year but the fact is that last year the Sox were horrendous, even compared to their recent selves, at converting batted balls into outs.
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#9 User is offline   phrenile 

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 01:33 PM

Assists are a very crude metric, and one year's worth of numbers is probably worthless, but for poops and giggles: based on last year's numbers, upgrading shortstop and third base is worth +106 assists.

2009 Assists
Position Player Assists
SS Nick Green 198
SS Alex Gonzalez 107
SS Jed Lowrie 52
Total SS 357
SS Marco Scutaro 421
Difference +64
3B Mike Lowell 174
3B Nick Green 4
3B Jed Lowrie 4
Total 3B 182
3B Adrian Beltre 224
Difference +42

This post has been edited by phrenile: 13 January 2010 - 01:40 PM

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#10 User is offline   Eric Van 

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 01:48 PM

I'm amazed that Dewan has the Sox as -52 last year (which apparently includes about -4 for VMart, maybe more), since UZR has them as -16.

My projections for next year, averaging FB and UZR:

Youk +10
Pedroia +8
Scutaro +7
Beltre +18
Ellsbury +4 (gains 12 moving from CF to LF; could be more)
Cameron +6
Drew +6

That's +59. If they were really -32 last year (again, averaging both metrics), then that is a 90 run upgrade.

#11 User is offline   Eric Van 

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 01:58 PM

QUOTE (Eric Van @ Jan 13 2010, 01:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
My projections for next year, averaging FB and UZR:

I'm now interested enough to do this separately with each metric.

UZR
Youk +7
Pedroia +8
Scutaro +3
Beltre +14
Ellsbury +2
Cameron +9
Drew +11

That's +54, for a +70 upgrade.

FB
Youk +13
Pedroia +9
Scutaro +10
Beltre +21
Ellsbury +6
Cameron +3
Drew +1

That's +63, for a +111 upgrade (if they were -48 without VMart).


#12 User is offline   Frisbetarian 

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 02:03 PM

QUOTE (Eric Van @ Jan 13 2010, 01:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm amazed that Dewan has the Sox as -52 last year (which apparently includes about -4 for VMart, maybe more), since UZR has them as -16.

My projections for next year, averaging FB and UZR:

Youk +10
Pedroia +8
Scutaro +7
Beltre +18
Ellsbury +4 (gains 12 moving from CF to LF; could be more)
Cameron +6
Drew +6

That's +59. If they were really -32 last year (again, averaging both metrics), then that is a 90 run upgrade.



Plus/Minus includes an assessment of pitchers and catchers including stolen bases, while UZR does not. The Sox pitchers and catchers were -25 per Plus/Minus last year, which makes the metrics a lot closer.


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#13 User is offline   Eric Van 

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 04:53 PM

QUOTE (Frisbetarian @ Jan 13 2010, 02:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Plus/Minus includes an assessment of pitchers and catchers including stolen bases, while UZR does not. The Sox pitchers and catchers were -25 per Plus/Minus last year, which makes the metrics a lot closer.

That does explain a lot. I looked up Varitek and he was +8 for Catcher's ERA (which they may or may not be including) and -8 for SB / CS.

Revising the previous numbers, you get +70 by UZR and +90 by FB. I'm comfortable saying the defense looks to be 80 runs better -- of which almost half (39) is at 3B.


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Posted 13 January 2010 - 05:08 PM

Defense certainly will not be the "fatal flaw" of the 2010 team. Let's hope it brings the same success as the post-Nomar 2004 squad.

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 08:27 PM

Well ... let's take a look at run attribution from a different slant.

It is possible to get a qualitative look at defensive run attribution by analyzing hits allowed (1B, 3B, 3B and HR) against hit trajectory (GB, FB, LD). The general notion is that by looking at, for instance, the team's 1B/GB rate against the league average, we can get a rough estimate of the singles that could be attributed to the team defense.

First, though, we need to equalize the numbers a bit, since the Sox pitching staff gave up GB, FB and LD rates quite different from the league average. In fact, the Sox pitchers gave up fewer GB's per BIP than the league average (41.5% to 43.8% league average), more fly balls (38.8 vs 35.9) and roughly the same number of line drives (18.9 vs 19.2). In total the Sox pitchers gave up 44 fewer BIPs than the league average, so in general, the Sox staff did a pretty decent job overall last season.

To equalize the rates, then, we calculate the 1B, 2B, 3B and HR per BIP rates, then multiply them by the league BIP average to yield something resembling a BABIP-neutral assessment of hits allowed for each of the hit trajectory. Here are the results for the 2009 Red Sox compared to the league average:

CODE
     1B   2B   3B   HR
-----------------------
GB  +21   -6   -1   NA
FB  +24  +23   -2   -7
LD  +18   +1   -2   -4
---------------------
Tot +63  +18   -5  -11


Looking at ground balls first, I think that it is safe to assume that the Sox 2009 infield was a bit on the pourous side, allowing 21 more singles than the league average. There are no real mitigating factors other than karma to adjust this rate, and it is probably safe to assume that we can assign all of these extra singles to shoddy defense, or roughly 10 runs.

I think that the six fewer doubles on ground balls can be largely attributed to the dimensions of Fenway. Hot grounders hit to the right or left field corners would account for nearly any extra base hit on a ground ball, but the Monster probably prevents many of these hot grounders down the left field line from becoming doubles. In general, however, I would find it difficult to penalize a fielder too badly for a ball hit hard down the line.

Fly ball analysis is a bit trickier. The Sox allowed +24 more singles on FBs than the league average, and to get a better picture of the skew, the numbers were 101 against Boston vs 77 against the league average, so the skew would probably be statistically higher if the Fenway numbers were deducted from the overall set. There are essentially two types of FBs that land for singles - seeing eye pop flies and balls hit off the Monster. I suppose that a very small percentage of these could be attributed to a fielder, but most are clearly karmic.

Similarly, the +23 doubles on fly balls were probably primarily Monster shots.

Line drive analysis is a little trickier. We should logically expect that the Monster will increase singles to some extent, and probably reduce doubles (unlike fly balls) by the same general rate (thus converting balls that would be doubles in a bigger park into wall-ball singles). I think that there are potentially more subtle effects too. A left-fielder in Fenway generally plays much shallower than in other parks. If positioned correctly, the left fielder may be able to turn an occasional potential line drive single into an out, but I also think that playing shallower limits the outfielders range to his left or right, so may cause some potentially catchable balls to go to the wall. I also think that the larger-than-average zones in CF and RF may cause a few extra line drive singles, but may reduce some doubles and triples if the fielders are deep. Conversely, they could also go the other way if the fielders are cheating (either CF toward the Monster or RF toward the corner). Perhaps the most interesting scenario would be a LF shaded toward the Monster against a righty power hitter. Many of the great righty hitters have ample power to right-center, especially if pitched outside (as most are). This duality probably increases the difficulty of playing CF in Fenway.

Much of this is speculation, of course, and I'll try to take some time to look at past seasons to see if any solid trends emerge.

The bottom line, however, is that I don't think that either UZR or FB ratings accurately account for the idiosyncracies of fielding in the Fenway outfields. I believe that Dewan has made some adjustments on fly balls, but I don't believe he has done anything with CF or RF zones. I have no idea about UZR, but just a glance at the numbers that EV provided would seem to indicate that UZR doesn't correct as much as Dewan does.

I think it's a much fairer assessment of the 2009 team to suggest that the defense accounted for maybe 20 or 25 runs below the league average. If you give the defense full penalty for all of the +64 1Bs and +18 2Bs in the chart above, that still only accounts for 37 runs (using standard LWTS values). I also think that adding the new fielders will help the infield, perhaps to the tune of a 20-run swing, but will have much less effect on the outfield defense than predicted. Even the infield numbers may be smaller, given the fact that the Sox pitchers allowed 120 fewer groundballs than the league average last season, and adding Lackey is likely to increase that gap. My general rule of thumb with UZR and FB fielding runs is that if you cut them in half, you're probably in the ballpark, so we may see a 40-run swing, probably less.

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#16 User is offline   Papi's Mango Salsa 

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 08:47 PM

What about the offense? If we are saving 90 runs on defense because we have great defensive guys, what happens if we don't score as many runs because they are a drop off on offense. Isn't there a netting that should also be looked at. If the 90 runs translates into 9 more games won, but we give back games because on lack of run creation, we haven't really changed much, have we?

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 09:29 PM

QUOTE (phrenile @ Jan 13 2010, 01:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Assists are a very crude metric, and one year's worth of numbers is probably worthless, but for poops and giggles: based on last year's numbers, upgrading shortstop and third base is worth +106 assists.

2009 Assists
Position Player Assists
SS Nick Green 198
SS Alex Gonzalez 107
SS Jed Lowrie 52
Total SS 357
SS Marco Scutaro 421
Difference +64
3B Mike Lowell 174
3B Nick Green 4
3B Jed Lowrie 4
Total 3B 182
3B Adrian Beltre 224
Difference +42

Is this missing Youkilis' 3B assists last year?

#18 User is offline   Bowlerman9 

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 09:46 PM

QUOTE (Mugsys Jock @ Jan 13 2010, 09:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Is this missing Youkilis' 3B assists last year?


Yup. And Lugo & Company for SS.

Last year's numbers:

Sox SS: 413

Sox 3B: 287
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#19 User is offline   PrometheusWakefield 

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 09:53 PM

Out of curiosity, I ran through what a 90 run differential might look like in terms of impact on our pitchers ERAs. Assuming that all runs saved are equally distributed, and assuming that the 90 runs saved come out of earned rather than unearned runs (both highly questionable assumptions, of course), this is what I got:

Red Sox pitchers if we had 90 runs better Defense
IP ER Adj. ER ERA Adj. ERA
Lester 203 77 64.28 3.41 2.85
Beckett 212.33 91 77.70 3.86 3.29
Wakefield 129 66 57.92 4.60 4.04
Penny 131.67 82 73.75 5.60 5.04
Matsuzaka 59.33 38 34.28 5.76 5.20
Papelbon 68 14 9.74 1.85 1.29
Okajima 61 23 19.18 3.39 2.83
Bard 49.33 20 16.91 3.65 3.09
Delcarmen 59.67 30 26.26 4.52 3.96


If the numbers end up anywhere close to that, it would make for a very exciting year...

EDIT: Heh. Looking over those numbers it became obvious that what you're seeing is a .56 decline in ERA regardless of innings pitched. Which, in retrospect, I could have calculated arithmatically.

This post has been edited by PrometheusWakefield: 13 January 2010 - 09:57 PM


#20 User is offline   Rough Carrigan 

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 10:12 PM

I think it's possible.

In 2007, Tampa Bay gave up 944 runs.

In 2008, Tampa Bay gave up 671 runs.

That's an amazing 273 run improvement, which an article at Baseball Prospectus attributed roughly half to defensive improvemnent (going from a 50+ years of MLB low defensive efficiency in 2007 to a top of the league defensive efficiency in 2008) and half to improved pitching.

So, you could say that Tampa improved about 135 runs on defense in 2008.

Of course, the Red Sox didn't have the worst team defensive efficiency since records are available post 1954 as the Rays did. But they were third worst in MLB last year (before park adjustments), only beating the juggernauts of Houston and KC (yes, the Dayton Moore "process").

And the Sox have made big defensive turnarounds before. They were near the bottom of the league in 2006 and then near the top in their championship year in 2007. 80 runs is a lot but seems possible given where they're coming from and where they might go.
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