229 replies to this topic

[xjack]

While I agree that virtually every player from the past 15 or 20 years is suspect, HOF voters cannot rule out candidates absent proof that they used PEDs.

Isn't this exactly what they'd been doing with McGwire up until two days ago?

At the very least, the PED question should be put to all these guys before their HOF vote, and they should all be forced to give a straightforward yes or no answer.

Edited by xjack, 14 January 2010 - 11:00 PM.

[GoJeff!]

What about Nolan Ryan? How come he gets a pass for being a "freak of nature" playing great late into his 40s? His top six seasons:

Age 34
Age 40
Age 30
Age 44
Age 25
Age 42

[barbed wire Bob]

What about Nolan Ryan? How come he gets a pass for being a "freak of nature" playing great late into his 40s? His top six seasons:

Age 34
Age 40
Age 30
Age 44
Age 25
Age 42

Do you have any evidence that he was using PEDs other than his age and the fact that he was a teammate of Canseco's with the Rangers in 92-94? I personally think it is unlikely that Ryan is the mystery HOF player that Canseco alludes to since Canseco would have outed him by now. But, I can't disprove any allegation that Ryan used them. That's what makes this whole thing a mess. Everyone who played during the 90's is suspect. Maybe the best thing to do is accept it. Call it the Steriod Era and evaluate players accordingly like we do with players who played during the Dead Ball Era.

Edited for clarity.

Edited by barbed wire Bob, 15 January 2010 - 12:21 AM.

[GoJeff!]

Do you have any evidence that he was using PEDs other than his age and the fact that he was a teammate of Canseco's with the Rangers in 92-94?

Not at all. He just has an extreme case of great performance at a late age.

[DukeSox]

hey!

we got cy young winners over here!!

Edited by DukeSox, 15 January 2010 - 12:29 AM.

[GBrushTWood]

Once a current hall-of-famer is outed as a steroid user (e.g. Nolan Ryan), then it will open the door for Mark McGwire, Barry Bonds, and Roger Clemens to enter the hall of fame.

There seems to be a preposterous assumption among the sports writer cognoscenti that baseball hall of famers are beacons of all that is pure and sacred with the sport. Thus, by their bird logic, those deemed as vile and repugnant steroid cheats of baseball should not be allowed admission. Once these bozos realize that many current hall of famers are proven cheaters (e.g. - Gaylord Perry, a steroid user TBD), this foolish logic will be blown out the water and there will be even less reason to exclude McGwire.

To me, it's pretty astounding that they can induct Perry and at the same time, say McGwire can't be inducted. And yes, I understand the differences between Perry's spit-balling/vaseline act and shooting up with a syringe. Just because one results in a comical haa-haa/hee-ee response from the audience, doesn't mean they both aren't cheats.

Just let this all go to rest..

Edited by GBrushTWood, 15 January 2010 - 03:50 PM.

[Alternate34]

Once a current hall-of-famer is outed as a steroid user (e.g. Nolan Ryan), then it will open the door for Mark McGwire, Barry Bonds, and Roger Clemens to enter the hall of fame.

I don't think it would open the door. It is more likely that they would try to force that player out of the Hall rather than open the doors for all steroid users. If multiple Hall of Famers were outed as roiders I would agree. But 1 Hall of Famer would lead to hand wringing, some "I knew it all alongs" and many "Let's get the fucker out of the Hall!"

[xjack]

To me, it's pretty astounding that they can induct Perry and at the same time, say McGwire can't be inducted. And yes, I understand the differences between Perry's spit-balling/vaseline act and shooting up with a syringe. Just because one results in a comical haa-haa/hee-ee response from the audience, doesn't mean they both aren't cheats.

If the HOF voters refused to induct any pitcher known to doctor the baseball at some point in his career, there would be some legendary pitchers whose HOF status might need to be revoked. There's at least one other well-known spittballer in the HOF -- Red Faber. HOF pitchers infamous for scuffing the baseball include Whitey Ford and Don Sutton (and I'm sure many others whom I just can't recall right now).

Moreover, by this standard, you might even need to disqualify Hank Greenberg and Charlie Gehringer from the Hall. In the terrific Hank Greenberg documentary -- "The Life and Times of Hank Greenberg" -- there's an interview with Greenberg in which he admits that during the 1940 season, the Tigers routinely stole signs by placing a coach in the stands with binoculars, and having him use hand signals to relay pitchers' signs to the hitters.

To me at least, this kind of gamesmanship is different from using performance enhancing drugs.

Edited by xjack, 15 January 2010 - 06:34 PM.

[Synovia]

Weren't steroids not even banned from the game till the early 2000s?


I say, vote em in on performance. If you get caught going forward, too bad, but this shit about trying to keep people out of the HOF for things that weren't even against the rules is pretty ridiculous.

[Rough Carrigan]

What about Nolan Ryan? How come he gets a pass for being a "freak of nature" playing great late into his 40s? His top six seasons:

Age 34
Age 40
Age 30
Age 44
Age 25
Age 42

I thought the nasty rumor about Ryan was that, starting some time in the mid 80's, he threw a whole lot of scuffed baseballs.

[xjack]

One thing to keep in mind re Ryan.... The guy pitched an absolutely insane amount of innings during the years that should have been his statistical prime.

Here are his inning totals from age 25-30: 284, 326, 332, 198, 284, 299.

It's certainly possible that Ryan would have been even better during his 20s (at least statistically, as ranked by ERA+) were not for all those innings he had to pitch.

[SumnerH]

Weren't steroids not even banned from the game till the early 2000s?

They were explicitly banned (barring a legal prescription) in 1991. Fay Vincent's memo said:

• The possession, sale, or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance by major league players and personnel is strictly prohibited. Those involved in the possession, sale, or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance are subject to discipline by the commissioner and risk permanent expulsion from the game.
• In addition to any discipline this office may impose, a club may also take action under applicable provisions of and special covenants to the uniform player's contract. This prohibition applies to all illegal drugs and controlled substances, including steroids or prescription drugs for which the individual in possession of the drug does not have a prescription.
• MLB recognizes that illegal drug use has become a national problem, and that some players and baseball personnel may fall victim to drugs. Baseball will not hesitate to permanently remove from the game those players and personnel who, despite our efforts to treat and rehabilitate, refuse to accept responsibility for the problem and continue to use illegal drugs. If any club covers up or otherwise fails to disclose to this office any information concerning drug use by a player, that club will be fined $250,000, the highest allowable amount under the Major League Agreement.
• MLB believes that its testing program is the most effective means available to deter and detect drug use. For admitted or detected drug users, testing will be a component of that individual's after-care program for the balance of his or her professional baseball career.
• This office will continue to search for positive and constructive methods of dealing with drug use. While baseball will attempt to treat and rehabilitate any player or personnel who falls victim to a drug problem, we will not hesitate to impose discipline, especially in those cases involving repeated offenses or refusals to participate in a recommended and appropriate course of treatment.
• If any club has a question about any aspect of the drug use program, please contact Louis Melendez, Associate Counsel, Major League Baseball Player Relations Committee.

Sincerely,
Francis T. Vincent Jr.
Commissioner, Major League Baseball

CC: League Presidents
Player Relations Committee
Major League Baseball Players Association

Before that there was a general ban on the use of illegal substances that presumably applied to steroids, but I suppose some people could plead confusion or think that illegal substances meant something else (not a very tenable position, but I guess there's some wiggle room there. Post-1991, they'd been banned explicitly by name.

[Fred not Lynn]

While the Vincent memo establishes a certain recognition of the threat of doping to MLB, I can't quite understand how in light of the fact that at that time the International Olympic Committee had extensive lists of banned substances, testing procedures, education programs, rules, specified penalties, protocol and due process, MLB figured two paragraphs in a one page memo, sent once, would be a sufficient anti-doping policy.

That's what gets me on this. It's not like there wasn't any precedent in the sports world for dealnig with doping. It's not like other sports hadn't been developing and implementing anti-doping policy. Why did MLB chose to navel-gaze and make a very 1/2 assed effort on the subject, when experience had shown more than a 1/2 assed effort was required?

[JAF1970]

NY Daily News is reporting that McGwire was under no legal threat when he asked for immunity in 2005 - that is, there was no South Florida probe at the time.

Edited by JAF1970, 16 January 2010 - 11:57 AM.

[Average Reds]

NY Daily News is reporting that McGwire was under no legal threat when he asked for immunity in 2005 - that is, there was no South Florida probe at the time.

Look, McGwire is nothing but as ass no matter how you slice it, but can we please stop suggesting that he had no reason to ask for immunity in order to testify about PEDs?

If McGwire were to answer any questions in front of Congress about using steroids and without immunity, the panel had free reign to ask about anything, including questions that wold have placed him in legal jeopardy:

• Where did you get the steroids?
• Did any other players provide steroids to you at any time? If so, who were they?
• Did you ever provide PEDs to another player?
• etc.

Now, these fears were clearly overblown, since Canseco admitted his use and they didn't go down that road with him. But neither McGwire nor his lawyer knew this prior to the hearing, and both the request and his actions at the hearing are consistent with what most lawyers would advise their clients.

[Montana Fan]

Friends of mine who cover baseball tell me that McGwire is as dumb as a bag of hammers. No, seriously, which explains a lot.

This was exactly my thought when I watched the interview. McGwire is an oaf, and a dumb oaf at that. If he had half a brain he'd have read a statement saying that he had used steroids, greatly regrets it and apologizes to the fans and the Maris family. During the 2010 season he is going to be a hitting coach and will take questions pertaining to the 2010 Cardinals only. And that's it.

[JAF1970]

This was exactly my thought when I watched the interview. McGwire is an oaf, and a dumb oaf at that. If he had half a brain he'd have read a statement saying that he had used steroids, greatly regrets it and apologizes to the fans and the Maris family. During the 2010 season he is going to be a hitting coach and will take questions pertaining to the 2010 Cardinals only. And that's it.

I feel sorry for the non-star Card hitters. Love to hear McGwire if Pujols gets into a prolonged slump.

[Smead Jolley]

I thought the nasty rumor about Ryan was that, starting some time in the mid 80's, he threw a whole lot of scuffed baseballs.

Yeah, I remember a manager collected a whole bucket full of balls that Ryan cut during a game and the umps wouldn't even look at them.
The guy still had great stuff well into his 40s, though...I saw a lot of him on TV in Dallas. I think that Nolan just started to learn what pitching was about at an unusually advanced age. Bill James summed it up well when he said something to the effect that (younger) Nolan would try to throw absolutely unhittable pitches on the black to all batters at all times.

[bosockboy]

Timely to throw this in...I was at TLR's animal rescue benefit last night and had green room access (long story, my brother-in-law is a country musician and is in TLR's little sanctum of entertainers). I spoke with McGwire for 10-15 minutes, he was more forthcoming than you would think with a stranger; he basically said he wished he would have done his admission a little differently, for reasons I couldn't quite figure out. He looked like a guy that just had a giant monkey taken off his back, pretty relaxed.

His physical attributes are what shocked me; he's not much bigger than me in thickness. I'm like 6 foot 1/195 lbs.....pretty average. It was like his body was a tire someone let the air out of.

[mabrowndog]

Carlton Fisk hammers McGwire, Clemens

Former Red Sox catcher Carlton Fisk has weighed in on the steroids controversy and Mark McGwire's recent admission of use, saying it was "a crock" for McGwire to assert that steroids didn't help him hit 70 homers in 1998.

Fisk says it's hard to believe McGwire's claim that steroids did not help him hit, and that he only used them to recover from injury.

"(McGwire) says, 'Well, it doesn't help eye-and-hand coordination.' Well, of course it does. It allows you more acuity physically and mentally and optically. You are going to be stronger and you are going to be better," Fisk told the Tribune.

Fisk also criticized former Red Sox pitcher Roger Clemens, who was named in the Mitchell Report and has been accused of using performance-enhancing drugs, but vehemently proclaims his innocence.

"The reason he got let go from the Red Sox was because he was starting to break down," Fisk told the Tribune. "His last couple of years in Boston just weren't very productive, a la 'The Rocket.' Then all of a sudden he goes to Toronto and he wants to show somebody something. Then he gets two consecutive Cy Young Awards (in '97 and '98). Come on, give me a bucket."

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Carlton Fisk hammers McGwire, Clemens

And Joe Posnanski hammers Fisk right back.

We don’t know. And while some people seem endlessly interested in standing on soap boxes and shouting down at the cheaters who have been caught or have come forward for whatever reason, it seems like we don’t want to know. Yes, the era may be defined by steroids, but it’s like people don’t want to hear that steroids were not the only reason that people hit a bunch more home runs. There are a lot of reasons people hit home runs.

For instance, there was a player, a really good player, who had never hit more than 26 home runs in a season. He was a good hitter but he was just not a 30-home run guy. And he was also a catcher, which meant that it was likely his body had taken a terrible beating and had worn down.

But this is the point I want to make: When you talk about the three greatest power hitting catchers of all time — Mike Piazza, Johnny Bench and Yogi Berra, right? Well, there’s Josh Gibson, of course, but we don’t have his numbers. When the three power catchers (Piazza, Bench and Berra) were 37 years old, how many home runs do you think they averaged? The three greatest power-hitting catchers of all time averaged 11 home runs at age 37. How many do you think our guy hit? He hit 37!

Of course, our guy is Carlton Fisk. And I am not suggesting that he did anything illegal — I am in fact entirely convinced that he did not do anything illegal and never would. But he had never hit more than 26 homers in his career. And he was a 37-year-old catcher — no 37-year old catcher had ever even hit 20 homers before. And at 37, he hit 37 home runs because, well, baseball isn’t always easy to reduce to a few indignant words.

[Average Reds]

And Joe Posnanski hammers Fisk right back.

I really like Joe Posnanski. And yet, I have to say that this column was something of an abortion.

The basic philosophical thread of the entire article is that there are so many varibles involved in the game of baseball that it's difficult to know what is authentic and what is not authentic. And yeah, this makes a certain amount of sense, but only to a point.

That point where it stops making sense is when we know that someone used PEDs. In the absense of that knowledge, you can make Joe's argument. But once you know, it's no longer credible to pretend that the accomplishments are the product of random chance or one-season athletic outliers.

In McGwire's case, he cheated. A lot. If reports are true - and I believe them - Clemens cheated. A lot. And because of it, both of these players had a late-career resurgance that was not simply a one year fluke like Fisk's age 37 year. Now, we can't measure what part of the performace was based on PEDs and what part was based on statistical outliers, but we can't pretend the PED factor isn't important. To argue otherwise is to exhibit willfull blindness.

Not Joe's best work.

[RGREELEY33]

Good old Fergie Jenkins is up on his soap box now demanding apologies from McGwire to the
pitchers whose career he ruined. Pretty comical considering pitchers were juicing too.

http://sports.espn.g...tory?id=4846734

And this was the best part:

"You need to apologize to your family for depriving them of your presence as time goes on because
you are likely going to die earlier than if you had never relied on andro to carry you to all your successes."

He may be right about that, but coming from a guy that was arrested for cocaine possession, its pretty
funny.

[Kilgore A. Trout]

Good old Fergie Jenkins is up on his soap box now demanding apologies from McGwire to the
pitchers whose career he ruined. Pretty comical considering pitchers were juicing too.

http://sports.espn.g...tory?id=4846734

And this was the best part:

"You need to apologize to your family for depriving them of your presence as time goes on because
you are likely going to die earlier than if you had never relied on andro to carry you to all your successes."

He may be right about that, but coming from a guy that was arrested for cocaine possession, its pretty
funny.

You don't know Jenkins didn't apologize to his family for his drug abuse. For that to be something that occurred to him to say, he might very well have. And I doubt he'd be any kinder to Clemens if he ever tried to confess and not confess at the same time and then get back into the game like McGuire is.
Unless you think Jenkins was using cocaine to improve his play on the field, there is no comparison to McGuire. Its worse than Bill Lee or Mickey Mantle's extra caricular activities, true, but just not even close to the same thing as PEDs.
And Joe Ponanski can blow me.

[RGREELEY33]

You don't know Jenkins didn't apologize to his family for his drug abuse. For that to be something that occurred to him to say, he might very well have. And I doubt he'd be any kinder to Clemens if he ever tried to confess and not confess at the same time and then get back into the game like McGuire is.
Unless you think Jenkins was using cocaine to improve his play on the field, there is no comparison to McGuire. Its worse than Bill Lee or Mickey Mantle's extra caricular activities, true, but just not even close to the same thing as PEDs.
And Joe Ponanski can blow me.

The PED use is far worse than any drug use when it comes to the competition, my point was that here's a guy
that did just as many bad things to his body and put his health in jeopardy, and he's acting all self-righteous about McGwire
owing his family an apology. Bringing that aspect into this is a fucking joke and none of Jenkins' business. If he wants to
comment on McGwire using PEDs and being a cheat, okay. But even his comments there were ridiculous, naively thinking
that those same pitchers that McGwire was hitting bombs off weren't also juicing.

[threecy]

I really like Joe Posnanski. And yet, I have to say that this column was something of an abortion.

The basic philosophical thread of the entire article is that there are so many varibles involved in the game of baseball that it's difficult to know what is authentic and what is not authentic. And yeah, this makes a certain amount of sense, but only to a point.

That point where it stops making sense is when we know that someone used PEDs. In the absense of that knowledge, you can make Joe's argument. But once you know, it's no longer credible to pretend that the accomplishments are the product of random chance or one-season athletic outliers.

In McGwire's case, he cheated. A lot. If reports are true - and I believe them - Clemens cheated. A lot. And because of it, both of these players had a late-career resurgance that was not simply a one year fluke like Fisk's age 37 year. Now, we can't measure what part of the performace was based on PEDs and what part was based on statistical outliers, but we can't pretend the PED factor isn't important. To argue otherwise is to exhibit willfull blindness.

Not Joe's best work.

Of course, no mention was made to that season being Fisk's first season with a significant amount of time as DH (28 games). His previous career high was 6 games at DH.

[ItOnceWasMyLife]

The Dealer Speaks

"Will it help you hit a baseball?" Wenzlaff said. "Let me put it to you this way. If Paris Hilton was to take that array, she could run over Dick Butkus."

Edited by ItOnceWasMyLife, 22 January 2010 - 02:21 PM.

[InsideTheParker]

There is a nice article in today's NYTimes about reaction within the Cardinals family of former owners, players, and fans.
Examples:

First and foremost was the recent criticism of McGwire by several members of the Cardinals family. Adolphus Busch IV, scion of the family that once owned the team, said in a statement that McGwire “deliberately cheated the game,” “stole its most coveted records” and “was paid millions while perpetrating a fraud.” Jack Clark, a popular first baseman on two pennant-winning teams in the 1980s, said that seeing McGwire in uniform made him want to throw up and that McGwire, like all steroid users, should be barred from baseball forever.

Perhaps the most resonant criticism came from Whitey Herzog, a beloved former manager, who at a dinner in Appleton, Wis., said he could not fathom how McGwire received a standing ovation at the Winter Warm-Up and that Clark was roundly booed. “Now what the hell is the matter with society when that happens?” Herzog said.

The former Cardinals great Bob Gibson has also come out in support of McGwire. He said Monday on the Post-Dispatch Web site that it was time to move on, an echo of what many fans have said. Gibson also took issue with Herzog and Clark.

“Those two aren’t in the Cardinals family,” he said. “I don’t think that’s going to be an issue with anybody other than between McGwire and them — which it probably should be. I don’t think it’s their place to criticize him the way they did.”

NYTimes

[xjack]

I would love to know what kind of definition of "Cardinals' family" doesn't include Whitey Herzog. Among managers, the guy has the third most wins in Cardinals history.

[zenter]

McGwire's estranged brother (and bodybuilder) Jay McGwire coming out with a book, "Mark and Me: Mark McGwire and the Truth Behind Baseball's Worst-Kept Secret".

ESPN Report...

Nothing really new here, except why the two became estranged:

The brothers haven't spoken since 2002. They fell out after Jay McGwire's stepson, Eric, tickled Mark and caused Mark to spill coffee on himself. Mark then swatted Eric on the backside. Jay's wife, Francine, then refused to attend Mark's wedding.

Seriously? Dude hit is stepson-in-law for spilling coffee?! That tells me more about Mark McGwire and what kind of "guy he is" than anything else in the article.