229 replies to this topic

[Ed Hillel]

I think he realized McGwire had set certain boundaries, which limited any planned follow-ups. So yeah, he was probably trying to fill some dead space.

Maybe Costas feared the Roid Rage!

[BannedbyNYYFans.com]

Verducci and Rosenthal are *hammering* him on his contention that the performance enhancing drugs didn't enhance his performance.

I'm happy they are. Some of his answers were pretty pathetic in this interview. To say that there is no connection between his performance and his PED use is laughable.

[Wingack]

Mark clearly feels bad for what he's done, but it's hard to conclude that he's not either delusional or lying when he says it was all God-given talent. They're killing him now on MLB Network, and I think they've fully grasped what the public is going to believe.

And that is why MLBN is good, they aren't afraid to speak honestly about the tarnishing of the sport. Wouldn't happen on ESPN.

[Rough Carrigan]

Verducci making another great point that, his professed fear of prosecution as a result of testifying in front of congress in 2005 doesn't square with loud and proud steroid advocate Jose Canseco not being prosecuted for his admissions.

[mabrowndog]

And that is why MLBN is good, they aren't afraid to speak honestly about the tarnishing of the sport. Wouldn't happen on ESPN.

You're right. But we would get an awesome Stuart Scott hip-hop poetry ad-lib followed by Stan Verrett's "Freeze it! Frame it! THAT is your Canon image of the week!"

[Ed Hillel]

You're right. But we would get an awesome Stuart Scott hip-hop poetry ad-lib followed by Stan Verrett's "Freeze it! Frame it! THAT is your Canon image of the week!"

Let's cut to the Jabbawokies dancing live in studio to Rhianna's new hit single "punch my face!"

Edited by Ed Hillel, 11 January 2010 - 08:06 PM.

[nocode51]

The unexplosiveness of this thread I think speaks to the reaction that most people will have to this issue. It's clearly a story today, and it'll be talked about for a day or two but will blow over MUCH faster then earlier scandals. Each new one dilutes the power of the whole concept, not to mention everyone already knew he was on it. When Sosa comes out will anyone even care?

[mabrowndog]

Either Harold Reynolds grossly mis-spoke, or he just admitted to taking PEDs himself.

He agreed with Verducci and Rosenthal on their "PEDs obviously enhance performance" argument, and added something to the effect of "they make you stronger, you heal quicker, they made me feel faster ... they even have steroids that can improve your eyesight..."

[threecy]

While it is basically assumed that steroid use started sometime around the strike, I don't buy it. I suspect the 80s may have seen steroid use (in addition to the cocaine use) - I doubt everyone in the Hall is clean.

[Rossox]

Verducci and Rosenthal are *hammering* him on his contention that the performance enhancing drugs didn't enhance his performance.

Yup, and with regards to the HOF - he didn't have their votes before today and he definitely won't have it moving forward.

[Greg Blosser]

While it is basically assumed that steroid use started sometime around the strike, I don't buy it. I suspect the 80s may have seen steroid use (in addition to the cocaine use) - I doubt everyone in the Hall is clean.

Totally. When was it that Fenway was chanting "STEROIDS!" at Canseco and he flexed his muscles in response? I'm remembering it as '88 or '89. It seemed a given even then that he was juicing, though I can't say I remember anyone else being a glaring suspect at the time, including McGwire.

[Rossox]

Totally. When was it that Fenway was chanting "STEROIDS!" at Canseco and he flexed his muscles in response? I'm remembering it as '88 or '89. It seemed a given even then that he was juicing, though I can't say I remember anyone else being a glaring suspect at the time, including McGwire.

Yup, that was the '88 ALCS.

[Fred not Lynn]

While it is basically assumed that steroid use started sometime around the strike, I don't buy it. I suspect the 80s may have seen steroid use (in addition to the cocaine use) - I doubt everyone in the Hall is clean.

Given the fact that steroid use in baseball may well have started with the Cuban National Team in the 1960s (or even sooner), I am always amazed at how it's assumed MLB steroid use didn't start until much later....rememebring that other forms of doping in MLB well predate what is called the "steroid era".

Edited by Fred not Lynn, 11 January 2010 - 08:54 PM.

[mabrowndog]

Based on McGwire's complete disconnect (whether feigned or genuine) over the link between PEDs and his performance, I'm going to pull a John Kerry and reverse my earlier stance that he'll eventually be inducted into the HOF. He may well be, but this supersedes any sway or tug of his emotional display. It's also now clear many prominent writers with HOF votes (including Verducci, Rosenthal & Gammons) will never put him on their ballot since he's removed all doubts of steroid usage.

One has to wonder, however, how the public door-closing by these writers might affect any future admissions of PED use from potential candidates going forward. It would seemingly eliminate any chance we'll ever hear such a confession from someone who strongly desires HOF membership.

[Harry Hooper]

No matter how contrite he may have appeared, the timing of this announcement by McGwire is so obviously due to stage-managed tactics that I find it hard to see him getting "credit" for coming clean here.


Is someone going to ask Bud why this admitted PED-using man will be allowed on a MLB payroll in 2010?

[Statman]

Is someone going to ask Bud why this admitted PED-using man will be allowed on a MLB payroll in 2010?

Someone mentioned up thread that MLB has banned anyone associated with PEDs from entering a club house.

Is that true and if so, then how is McGwire able to hold a hitting coach position?

[Bob Montgomery's Helmet Hat]

Is someone going to ask Bud why this admitted PED-using man will be allowed on a MLB payroll in 2010?

What's the difference between him and ARod, Pettitte, et al, in terms of being on a payroll?

[glennhoffmania]

Someone mentioned up thread that MLB has banned anyone associated with PEDs from entering a club house.

Is that true and if so, then how is McGwire able to hold a hitting coach position?

How can this possibly be true? Last I heard, ARod and Manny were still allowed in their clubhouses.

[Smead Jolley]

You're next Sammy.

No speaka English!!!!

[Comfortably Lomb]

Verducci making another great point that, his professed fear of prosecution as a result of testifying in front of congress in 2005 doesn't square with loud and proud steroid advocate Jose Canseco not being prosecuted for his admissions.

I suspect the difference is McGwire consulted a competent attorney.

[Harry Hooper]

How can this possibly be true? Last I heard, ARod and Manny were still allowed in their clubhouses.

They were identified during via the results generated during the voluntary testing phase, which MLB could not use for punitive actions by agreement with the PA. Players identified by mandatory testing now in place are subject to punishment.

Edit: Manny got suspended for positive test results under mandatory testing.

Beyond that, the standard for MLB players is different from the one for minlor league players and team personnel/trainers/etc.

Edited by Harry Hooper, 11 January 2010 - 10:24 PM.

[Jnai]

Here's the thing that doesn't make sense to me.

The big thing here is admitting guilt to steroid use. I got home expecting to read all sorts of details about what McGwire did. What was he taking? When was he taking it? But we get none of that.

If this were real guilt and these were real tears, wouldn't he be coming completely clean? Telling us what he did? Telling us the details of his usage? The real motivation behind it?

Instead, we get this BS "I took steriods to make me heal". Look, if the reason you are coming clean is because you've been living with this incredible guilt of being one of the world's biggest frauds for the last ten years, at least have the decency to make your apology real. Otherwise it's just lame.

[Mr Jums]

Based on McGwire's complete disconnect (whether feigned or genuine) over the link between PEDs and his performance, I'm going to pull a John Kerry and reverse my earlier stance that he'll eventually be inducted into the HOF. He may well be, but this supersedes any sway or tug of his emotional display. It's also now clear many prominent writers with HOF votes (including Verducci, Rosenthal & Gammons) will never put him on their ballot since he's removed all doubts of steroid usage.

One has to wonder, however, how the public door-closing by these writers might affect any future admissions of PED use from potential candidates going forward. It would seemingly eliminate any chance we'll ever hear such a confession from someone who strongly desires HOF membership

The thing is, for every somewhat informed Verducci, Rosenthal, or Gammons, how many voters do you think there are out there who are more than happy to let this thing slide now that he's simply admitted it? Before you answer, consider how they voted this year, and all the absurd incomprehensible votes that individuals have made over the years. Whether he gets in or not is very much up for debate (I still don't know where I stand on it. Push comes to shove I think he probably won't, but I don't know), but I don't think we should be taking this group of writers as representative of the overall group, when they are clearly at the top.

What I'm interested to see is how other steroids tainted players will react if McGwire has a big boost in his voting come next year. Say hypothetically he gets into the 40-50% range next year, and it's clear that the confession has helped him in the minds of voters. What does, say, a Sammy Sosa do in that situation? If he continues to deny it, his situation stays the same. If he comes out and admits it, it looks like the most cynical ploy imaginable just to get more votes because it worked for McGwire. That would be an interesting situation.

As a total aside, boy does Andy PettiTTe owe Roger Clemens a lot. He came out with the same basic oh I took it to heal, it only happened once or twice, boo hoo spiel, and because it was contrasted with the Amazing Neverending Roger Clemens Freakshow that was happening at the same time, people basically said it's ok Andy, we still love you. A very fortunate one, that Andy is

[Jnai]

Okay, hold on. Congress had a hearing to gather information about steroid use in baseball. McGwire went to congress and said, "Look, I'll come clean, just give me immunity". And they didn't fucking grant him immunity? Out of all the epic failures from the steroid era, that might be the biggest one.

[Ed Hillel]

Fwiw, ESPN is running a headling at the bottom that Tom Davis has confirmed that McGwire wanted to testify that he used steroids, but that they refused to grant him immunity. I can't really figure out why Congress would make such a refusal, but that's why they're Congress.

Edit - Didn't see above. Right, I agree.

Edited by Ed Hillel, 11 January 2010 - 10:40 PM.

[Mr Jums]

Okay, hold on. Congress had a hearing to gather information about steroid use in baseball. McGwire went to congress and said, "Look, I'll come clean, just give me immunity". And they didn't fucking grant him immunity? Out of all the epic failures from the steroid era, that might be the biggest one.

You're surprised about a dumb decision made by the US Congress?

[jk333]

You're surprised about a dumb decision made by the US Congress?

I don't vote because I don't think it makes a difference either way, but this just confirms it.

US Congress: EPIC FAIL

Can we make that a word association on this site?

[Van Everyman]

Beyond the whole "I only took steroids for health reasons" vs. the ridiculous boost in power numbers, the one thing that is always missing from these debates is that "doing it for health reasons" *does* give someone an advantage over the guys who didn't have the ability to stay on the field. I mean, in 1961, who's to say Mantle doesn't blow Maris out of the water if he uses steroids to recover from/prevent the abscessed hip that limited him to 153 games?

[accidentalsuccess]

epic yawn, really. No one is shocked or even mildly surprised. The timing obviously is set to minimize the distraction in spring training. Whatever. I also totally agree with the upthread post about 'roids since BEFORE the 80's (the east german swim team was the 1976 olympics). There are scattered quotes (unsubstantiated) about a certain 70's football dynasty, too. This stuff has been part of pro sports for a LONG time. It probably still is, unfortunately.

The one thing I DO buy is that congress refused to grant immunity. I don't know if it's true or not and, yeah, that was dumb if it's true.

edit: I still watch pro sports, too. I love the competition and I want the athletes to be safe. That's why I want all of it to come out. It's better that some kid realizes that he can't hit 80 homers a year and spends time on the other parts of his game or, even better, other parts of his life (using MLB as an example).

Edited by accidentalsuccess, 11 January 2010 - 11:03 PM.

[xjack]

One thing that bugged me about the MLB Network coverage: they had Bob Costas on afterwards and he said the McGwire just confirmed what we already knew or should have known. After all, players don't suddenly get better in their mid-30s.

Well, this was the same cast of characters who a few days earlier on MLB Network was singing the praises of Randy Johnson and describing him as a surefire HOFer without once questioning how it is that the best stretch of Johnson's career occurred after he turned 33 and how his career year came at age 38.

[Fred not Lynn]

Instead, we get this BS "I took steriods to make me heal".

In his defense...that's EXACTLY why you take steroids; To make you heal, faster, so you can work out again, sooner and more often.

[502 to Right]

6 of the top 15 career homerun hitters in baseball history used steroids. According to the majority of Hall of Fame voters they are never getting in.

Bonds
Sosa
McGwire
Rodriguez
Palmeiro
Ramirez

3 others played in the steroid era but have not been implicated (but who knows whether they really did or did not use):

Grifffey
Thomas
Thome

This is complete long term disaster for baseball.

[Razor Shines]

If guys like Bonds or A-Rod actually don't get into the Hall of Fame, I think it just renders the Hall of Fame (and the term "Hall of Famer") completely useless. People will simply stop using it as any sort of credible performance benchmark, if three of the top 5 players of all time are not in there. In a way, the HoF has always been sort of a subjective popularity contest, but this will nail that point home even further.

[threecy]

You're surprised about a dumb decision made by the US Congress?

The dumb decision was to hold those hearings in the first place. Considering the issues our country was facing back then, it was ridiculous to see Congressmen grilling baseball players over drug use. It's entertainment - if they want to grill entertainers who use illegal drugs, they'd have a heck of a lot of people from various sports and industries in there!



I think Conseco made reference that there's at least one steroid user in the HOF. I suspect there is more than one.

Also, are steroids dramatically worse than cocaine? There are cocaine users in the HOF. Certainly cocaine could help performance. And certainly cocaine use is a worse message (in that it's a more readily available and illegally used drug) to send to kids.

[kneemoe]

Okay, hold on. Congress had a hearing to gather information about steroid use in baseball. McGwire went to congress and said, "Look, I'll come clean, just give me immunity". And they didn't fucking grant him immunity? Out of all the epic failures from the steroid era, that might be the biggest one.

I have a tough time buying this. It just seems far too long after the fact, and comes off as a wayto say 'look, I'm really a good guy, I swear I would have admitted it, BUT...'
I have a tough time buying his fake tears too I think the only reason he's close to tears (if they are indeed real) is because he's admitting he's a fake, not because he actually feels bad about cheating the game.

Maybe I'm being overly cynical here, as it looks like a huge portion of the league was doing something to gain an edge, but I think all of this is a well crafted PR stunt in some lame attempt for Big Mac to regain his legacy and possibly get into the Hall.

[djbayko]

Yup, that was the '88 ALCS.

I've seen this statement on the site before. I vividly remember the '88 campaign and Greenwell's contention for the MVP against Canseco, as this year was during the peak of my childhood fanatacism with baseball.

The "steroid" chants for Canseco at Fenway began long before the playoffs. I remember Remy (and Montgomery?) kind of ignoring it, not quite being sure how to address the situation.

Bayko

[threecy]

I've seen this statement on the site before. I vividly remember the '88 campaign and Greenwell's contention for the MVP against Canseco, as this year was during the peak of my childhood fanatacism with baseball.

I wonder if Greenwell would be in the Hall today, had he used McGwire's roid recipe?

[Guapos Toenails]

He basically said that he was going to retire because of being a walking MASH unit after 1993. He took PEDs so his body could heal, feel better, etc.

So everything he did on a baseball field after 1993 was thanks to steroids and HGH.

He refuses to believe that the drugs he took enhanced his performance, but how can he deny that they werent performance extending drugs?

I wish Costas asked him that.

edit: 93, not 03

Edited by Guapos Toenails, 12 January 2010 - 01:50 PM.

[mabrowndog]

Considering the issues our country was facing back then, it was ridiculous to see Congressmen grilling baseball players over drug use.

It was a total embarrassment. Despite having parents of kids who'd died from steroid abuse present in the senate chamber, that session was nothing but a dog & pony show. And only a couple of the committee members did any actual "grilling" designed to get to the root of the issue rather than pompous grandstanding. The majority of those fucking phonies spent the day sucking up to their baseball heroes, telling America how much they admired them and enjoyed watching their majestic achievements.

[JimD]

And that is why MLBN is good, they aren't afraid to speak honestly about the tarnishing of the sport. Wouldn't happen on ESPN.

Exactly. Even more annoying is the high and mighty stance taken by various ESPN personalities tsk-tsking about baseball while their employer studiously avoids upsetting its partners in the NFL, NCAA and major universities and virtually ignores the rampant PED usage in the NFL and college football.

[InsideTheParker]

According to the NYTimes, yesterday's confession was part of a carefully plotted (one-month) strategy by Ari Fleischer, the former White House Press Sec'y and the St. Louis Cardinals:Times Unfortunately, the writer Richard Sandomir doesn't tell how he knows about Fleischer's firm's involvement. His business is this: Fleischer Sports

[LoweTek]

I think McGwire sincerely believes everything he said. The biggest stretch in my mind is the contention that "nobody knew before yesterday." I have a lot of trouble believing he and LaRussa, possibly joined by MLB (Selig) and the Cardinals brass, did not discuss some sort of disclosure prior to McGwire's suggestion. I guess all things considered, it might be true, but it sure sounds like a stretch. Surely LaRussa knew his job offer to McGwire would bring this subject to the forefront. The idea that LaRussa and McGwire did not discuss it or the Cardinal FO did not agree to the hire with some reticence or at least contingent upon this admission doesn't ring true.

I think McGwire came across as sincere, egotistical and somewhat ignorant. It's an interesting study in self-image. He was an elite hitter with or without, not on the level of Bonds but still an elite talent. His ego and self-confidence are so out of proportion he believes the incidental "enhancement" of the drugs are more or less tarnishing his legacy as an elite hitter, rather than augmenting or extending it. His shame seems based purely in what he lost in terms of personal legacy and if true, the entire concept of hiding it from everybody around him. He does seem to recognize he came across as an idiot during the hearings. I can accept his reasoning for doing as he did while there.

It renders as fiction however, the whole staging of the Maris honor and respect thing, the Sosa drama, hugging the kid at home plate, the needed resurgence of the game that year, that day. It confirms it all as a fabrication; a lie. The thing that makes me shake my head is while McGwire seems genuinely ashamed of all of it, through the lens of his ego he can't see the reason clearly, the cause and effect. Maybe that's part of the mindset required to be an elite hitter. The greatness in the mirror can never devalue, lest the meaning of the man in his own mind's eye be obliterated.

That the game is tarnished is pretty much behind us now. My past indignation seems trite in retrospect. Now, it's just sort of sad.

[Mr Jums]

It was a total embarrassment. Despite having parents of kids who'd died from steroid abuse present in the senate chamber, that session was nothing but a dog & pony show. And only a couple of the committee members did any actual "grilling" designed to get to the root of the issue rather than pompous grandstanding. The majority of those fucking phonies spent the day sucking up to their baseball heroes, telling America how much they admired them and enjoyed watching their majestic achievements.

That was the major problem. I think if the session hadn't been televised, or at least been relegated to it's normal spot on C-SPAN, then they might have actually gotten something done. But by having it televised on ESPN, it was guaranteed to have a lot more viewers than normal, people who would never otherwise watch a congressional hearing. Because just about every politician is a self-important attention whore anyway, they saw this as one of their few chances to really get face time with an audience that is usually apathetic about politics. And actually trying to solve the problem and getting to the root of the issue is apparently a lot less entertaining than the pointless bombast we were exposed to.

[Guapos Toenails]

through the lens of his ego he can't see the reason clearly, the cause and effect. Maybe that's part of the mindset required to be an elite hitter. The greatness in the mirror can never devalue, lest the meaning of the man in his own mind's eye be obliterated.

This was a great post.

Can we call this hyper-ego the 'OJ effect'?

[dwightinright]

And that is why MLBN is good, they aren't afraid to speak honestly about the tarnishing of the sport. Wouldn't happen on ESPN.

Which is completely backwards if you think about it. The network OWNED by the sport isn't afraid to tarnish itself, but ESPN? Nothing hard-hitting.

And, case in point--Greenburg this morning, saying that during the HR race with McGwire and Sosa he didn't even know a thing about steriods. Yet, 10+ years prior Fenway was chanting "Steroids" at Canseco. But Greenburg, a sports guy, 10 years later, had no idea about steroids in baseball?

The thing is, for every somewhat informed Verducci, Rosenthal, or Gammons, how many voters do you think there are out there who are more than happy to let this thing slide now that he's simply admitted it?

Buster Olney this morning was asked about HoF voters and said that he thinks fully 50% of them will not vote for any "known" steriod guy.

Edited by dwightinright, 12 January 2010 - 10:10 AM.

[Rough Carrigan]

Okay, according to Dennis and Callahan this morning, someone at espn previously wrote or reported that McGwire was nearly a Canseco around the batting cage as far as advocacy for using steroids. Supposedly he used to tell other players, "Yeah, XYZ works great for me, try it.".

So, what I thought was a fairly principled refusal to name any other players when he told Costas that he never talked about it with any other players, never, was . . a line of bullshit to avoid revealing just how deeply into it he was.

[BucketOBalls]

Bond's ARod and Clemens will be the real tests. In Bonds case, you could knock 10-20%(at a guess) off his numbers and he would STILL be a hall of famer. This doesn't really apply in McGwire's case.

I would love for some guy to come forward and say exactly what they did medical history style. "I took 2 doses of X in august XXXX, 1 srynge of blah at the start of XXXX, etc, etc". Won't happen though.

[Rough Carrigan]

IMO, if Bonds had retired before he ever did steroids, which apparently started in 1999, he was already a clear hall of famer.

[LoweTek]

So, what I thought was a fairly principled refusal to name any other players when he told Costas that he never talked about it with any other players, never, was . . a line of bullshit to avoid revealing just how deeply into it he was.

This is probably more about The Code than anything else. If you think about it, of those implicated only Canseco has crossed this particular line, implicating other players. It's just not done. Go back to Bouton and the reaction he got. His stuff is tame, almost charming in hindsight. This is nothing new.

As much as I dislike him, I agree on Bonds had he not indulged. It could be said about some of the others as well. Strangely though all of them, Bonds, Clemens, Canseco, McGwire, et al share the Super-Ego thing. Think of the mindset of a Palmeiro, wagging his finger at Congress sitting there knowing he had an initial positive pending retesting. Is it just stupidity? Did he really believe he could make it go away by saying Tejada gave him vitamins? In Bonds' and Clemens' case their egos are even further enhanced by a profound anger, enough to lead both to trash themselves through reckless denial. It seems to drive them more so than even the money or any other reward aspect of the game. Apparently it's part of the required makeup to achieve at these levels.

[cannonball 1729]

He basically said that he was going to retire because of being a walking MASH unit after 2003. He took PEDs so his body could heal, feel better, etc.

So everything he did on a baseball field after 2003 was thanks to steroids and HGH.

He refuses to believe that the drugs he took enhanced his performance, but how can he deny that they werent performance extending drugs?

I wish Costas asked him that.

McGwire retired in 2001. I'm not sure what the question is.