281 replies to this topic

[TheYellowDart5]

Prelim agreement on Lowell to Tex for Max Ramirez. Red Sox owners must approve, teams must be satisfied with medicals. Red Sox eating nearly all of 12 salary.

http://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal

[bosockboy]

Waiting on Henry to sign off:

http://twitter.com/K...atus/6522415200

[Seels]

If this means the Sox sign Beltre, I really hope they have some plans to add to the anemic offense.

[SeanBerry]

I know Milton Bradley is a head case but is he that much of a problem if all you are getting is a guy that had a terrible season in his Age 24 season in AAA?

I am the first one to bitch and moan about Mike Lowell's stunningly awful range and speed but... we pay the freight and all we get is Max Ramirez?

Eh.

Edited by SeanBerry, 10 December 2009 - 12:23 AM.

[bosockboy]

I like it. The $12M means nothing to me, really. Now it's clear we're going to land Beltre or swing a deal for a 1B.

Can anyone explain why Ramirez was so putrid last year? I'd like to think he could be the catcher of the future. How does his defense stack up?

He was hurt most of 2009 I believe. Pure speculation here...but could Ramirez be a catcher that Toronto would want for Halladay? A catcher is on their wish list.

I've heard his defense is suspect and profiles more as a 1B/DH though.

[ScubaSteveAvery]

My initial thoughts are that I like the deal but don't love it. Ramirez has been pretty uninspiring above AA. But he absolutely mashed A and AA. So maybe he was rushed through the upper minors and into the majors. He's only 24 or 25, which is still young. And isn't the general consensus that catchers develop slower than other position players? We also get Lowell off the team, but now it depends on who fills the third base role. I guess I'm just mixed here, but glad that the cost of Ramirez was only Lowell and most likely $10 million or so compared to his price previously being in the Buchholz range (if I remember correctly).

Edited by ScubaSteveAvery, 10 December 2009 - 12:28 AM.

[Bowlerman9]

I know Milton Bradley is a head case but is he that much of a problem if all you are getting is a guy that had a terrible season in his Age 24 season in AAA?

I am the first one to bitch and moan about Mike Lowell's stunningly awful range and speed but... we pay the freight and all we get is Max Ramirez?

Eh.

Ditto.

If the Sox are paying all of Lowell's salary, they should get *something* in return, and after Max Ramirez's 2009 season, he doesnt seem like much.

Either save a few million or get something in return. It appears the Sox got neither.

So effectively, their opportunity cost on Beltre will be around 25M for 2010, sunk cost on Lowell and all.

If Ramirez gives the Sox more than Kottaras did in, I'll be shocked.

[Sprowl]

He was hurt most of 2009 I believe. Pure speculation here...but could Ramirez be a catcher that Toronto would want for Halladay? A catcher is on their wish list.

I've heard his defense is suspect and profiles more as a 1B/DH though.

He might be a capable backup catcher to substitute for Martinez against LHP in 2011 and onward, so he's not without value for the Red Sox too.

[NoLastCall125]

Any possibility that Ramirez could be used for a bigger deal to get a first baseman/third baseman/starting pitcher? Does he have any trade value left to other teams?

[TheYellowDart5]

Ditto.

If the Sox are paying all of Lowell's salary, they should get *something* in return, and after Max Ramirez's 2009 season, he doesnt seem like much.

Either save a few million or get something in return. It appears the Sox got neither.

So effectively, their opportunity cost on Beltre will be around 25M for 2010, sunk cost on Lowell and all.

If Ramirez gives the Sox more than Kottaras did in, I'll be shocked.

It's not much of a haul, but Lowell is a soon-to-be-36-year-old below-average fielder with bad hips who can barely run and doesn't walk. You can't really expect all that much back. And given Texas' financial problems, you can't really expect the Rangers to take on much, if any, salary in return.

That said, a left side of the infield of Scutaro and Beltre should be light years better than Lowell and Nick Green. I hope.

Edited by TheYellowDart5, 10 December 2009 - 12:33 AM.

[PedroKsBambino]

Puzzling deal, unless they feel that reputation-wise they simply needed to find Lowell another home because they are about to replace him. And I wouldn't at all discount that as a possibility---Lowell is well-regarded in baseball and in the Sox clubhouse by all accounts so treating him well is of real value.

That said, it's just an odd value exchange unless the early report is missing a piece. Lowell is flawed at 3B, but can still hit and presumably could play an adequate 1B and fill-in at 3B on occasion---for the Sox or someone else. Thus, paying him something like $10-$12 mil to play elsewhere when the return is marginal is hard to explain otherwise.

I suppose it's possible the Sox have reports on Ramirez that are glowing; the age, the past scouting reports on him sticking, and the 2009 performance suggest that he's not quite a prime prospect at this point though that 2008 season and the possibility of a cost-controlled catcher with a quality bat is rather appealing upside.

Certainly highly suggestive that a deal for another corner IF is about to happen---or else they like Casey Kotchman a whole lot more than anyone suspected.

[bombdiggz]

Max Ramirez is a legit prospect. He was hurt last year, but I can't think of which talent evaluator thought this, but one of the big guys liked Ramirex better that Teagarden and Salty last year. I will try to dig it up. I guess paying most of the freight is the price you pay for getting something potentially useful back instead of a bad contract when you already announced that you would eat 6M.

If this is a precursor to a Beltre signing we will be fielding what will most likely be the best defensive infield in all of baseball next year. Beltre, Youk, Pedroia, and Scutaro are all top three defenders. I know we will be getting more offense out of SS. I like our chances of getting more out of 3B too.

Doc Hallady would love an infield like that.

[rembrat]

This just illustrates how bad Mike Lowell was at fielding and running last year, two pretty important things about a baseball player. So so bad that they are eating a chunk of his remaining 12MM to not see him play on Fenway's shitty infield.

I don't care what the return was. Big picture here is that Lowell is gone and now Theo can go to work on adding the final piece to an already solid defensive and hitting infield. Let the rumors roll in.

Edited by rembrat, 10 December 2009 - 12:40 AM.

[Dionysus]

The problem with this is that it gives Beltre - or really whoever we choose to pursue - a whole lot more power at the bargaining table since we don't have an incumbent. I particularly hope that there is SOMETHING else coming back in this deal if we are eating all of Lowell's salary.

[PedroKsBambino]

The problem with this is that it gives Beltre - or really whoever we choose to pursue - a whole lot more power at the bargaining table since we don't have an incumbent. I particularly hope that there is SOMETHING else coming back in this deal if we are eating all of Lowell's salary.

The incumbent right now is Youkilis at 3B and Kotchman at 1B, seems to me. Not anywhere near the end of the world...though not what I'd like it to be on Opening Day, either.

[ScubaSteveAvery]

Wait, so it is Lowell for Ramirez, or Lowell for "x" prospect depending on how much money Boston adds to the deal?

[FredCDobbs]

The problem with this is that it gives Beltre - or really whoever we choose to pursue - a whole lot more power at the bargaining table since we don't have an incumbent. I particularly hope that there is SOMETHING else coming back in this deal if we are eating all of Lowell's salary.

I'm sure Scott Boras wouldn't take advantage of this sort of leverage.

And I'm not trying to be a smart-ass here, but we sure seem to be paying a lot of guys not to play for us lately. In fact, I could see us paying somebody to take Beltre off our hands three years into a four-year deal!

Thanks for the memories in 2007, Mike.

Edited by FredCDobbs, 10 December 2009 - 12:54 AM.

[PedroSpecialK]

I think some of us are really overvaluing Lowell here. The value he holds is minimal, really - a defensive liability, average or worse against right-handed pitching, and while he's a good clubhouse guy by all accounts, that doesn't stop bleeders down the third base line or get you to first in less than seven seconds.

He's put up OBP's of .319 and .324 against righties the last two seasons, while enduring hip surgery and losing nearly all of his range. Even if he does rebound to hit .280/.350/.450 or so in Texas, it will likely be as a DH, or in a battle with Chris Davis for a position he's never played. Getting a mid-20s catching prospect coming off a down year for what really was a sunk cost is a win, especially if the amount we pay is less than $10,000,000 if Corsi's link is in the ballpark.

[E5 Yaz]

Wait, so it is Lowell for Ramirez, or Lowell for "x" prospect depending on how much money Boston adds to the deal?

Right now, it's not Lowell for anything. Tomorrow morning, however ...

[cannonball 1729]

I know Milton Bradley is a head case but is he that much of a problem ..

Yes. Right now, he's on suspension from his current employer for "excessive asshattery."

I believe the exact quote from his GM was that he had become "too much to tolerate."

[SoxScout]

Just looked at all the stuff from when we were talking about Salty, Ramirez and Teagarden... the consensus was that Ramirez would be a good enough hitter to play at DH/1B, but was not good enough behind the plate to stick at catcher.

FWIW, Ramirez's injuries were tendinitis in his left wrist and right wrist soreness.

Edited by SoxScout, 10 December 2009 - 01:19 AM.

[Savin Hillbilly]

The problem with this is that it gives Beltre - or really whoever we choose to pursue - a whole lot more power at the bargaining table since we don't have an incumbent.

Is it possible that we already had a deal for Beltre worked out in principle pending disposition of Lowell?

[gammoseditor]

Rosenthal twitters:

Lowell hip, thumb issues could derail trade to Texas. "This thing could still blow up," one source said.

http://twitter.com/K...atus/6523621133

Edited by gammoseditor, 10 December 2009 - 01:18 AM.

[Quintanariffic]

Ditto.

If the Sox are paying all of Lowell's salary, they should get *something* in return, and after Max Ramirez's 2009 season, he doesnt seem like much.

Either save a few million or get something in return. It appears the Sox got neither.

So effectively, their opportunity cost on Beltre will be around 25M for 2010, sunk cost on Lowell and all.

If Ramirez gives the Sox more than Kottaras did in, I'll be shocked.

I think that's discounting Max Ramirez pretty significantly. Here's what Max Ramirez has done in the minors:

Age 19 R .275/.339/.480
Age 20 R .347/.424/.527
Age 21 A .292/.417/.454
Age 22 A+ .304/.419/.504
Age 23 AA/AAA .347/.439/.628
Age 24 AAA .230/.318/.334

Which of these things is not like the other? A two second google search tells you that Ramirez dealt with two wrist injuries last year, hence his lousy season. If the Sox are convinced that he is now healthy, then this looks to be a really good buy low opportunity.

[cannonball 1729]

The problem with this is that it gives Beltre - or really whoever we choose to pursue - a whole lot more power at the bargaining table since we don't have an incumbent.

Well, the Sox still have the option of trying to find a first baseman instead.

[Alcohol&Overcalls]

Well, the Sox still have the option of trying to find a first baseman instead.

And, speaking of, Ramirez might make an interesting option as Nick Hundley Insurance/Replacement within a larger package.

[ScubaSteveAvery]

Rosenthal twitters:
http://twitter.com/K...atus/6523621133

Rosenthal really has no clue what is going on. In the matter of two hours he goes from Lowell for Ramirez is just "Sox kicking tires" to "done deal" to "this thing could blow up." Is he just grabbing any random source he can find on this and shooting it out there?

[Wingack]

Man, it feels like the Sox trade more bad contracts eat more salary then any other team in the league, but hey that is better than them having dead weight on their team.

I do like this deal however, because I have read quite a few articles from Toronto about how the Jays want an upside catcher in a trade for Halladay, and Max Ramirez surely fits that bill.

[Papelbon's Poutine]

Rosenthal really has no clue what is going on. In the matter of two hours he goes from Lowell for Ramirez is just "Sox kicking tires" to "done deal" to "this thing could blow up." Is he just grabbing any random source he can find on this and shooting it out there?

It's odd, especially from him. He usually is one of the better sources during the Winter Meetings.

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Rosenthal really has no clue what is going on. In the matter of two hours he goes from Lowell for Ramirez is just "Sox kicking tires" to "done deal" to "this thing could blow up." Is he just grabbing any random source he can find on this and shooting it out there?

I was thinking the same thing. Logically speaking, how do the Rangers go from "done deal" to "this thing might blow up" due to Lowell's health concerns? Did Lowell's hip take a turn for the worst in the last hour?

I think it's a case of the "gotta get the scoop" thing combined with Twitter instantaneousness resulting in the worst case scenario for a reporter: just blurting out what he hears as he hears it whether it makes sense or not rather than checking and double checking before making one coherent and rational "scoop" report once he's confident he has the right info.

[Ed Hillel]

Man, it feels like the Sox trade more bad contracts eat more salary then any other team in the league, but hey that is better than them having dead weight on their team.

To be fair, this one was pretty much forced on Theo by rabid Bostonians who thought Lowell's heart and hatred for Fidel Castro would win out over his clearly aging body. The love for this guy was insane after 2007. I think people kind of viewed him as the anti-ARod and never wanted to see him leave.

Edited by Ed Hillel, 10 December 2009 - 02:41 AM.

[Eric Van]

Wonderful that this broke while I was doing my Adrian vs. Adrian comparison.

I'll be surprised if they don't have a Beltre deal worked out as well.

[curly2]

To be fair, this one was pretty much forced on Theo by rabid Bostonians who thought Lowell's heart and hatred for Fidel Castro would win out over his clearly aging body. The love for this guy was insane after 2007. I think people kind of viewed him as the anti-ARod and never wanted to see him leave. Good call, Boston.

No it wasn't. Yes, people love Lowell as a person, including me. But I'd say as much as Mike Lowell meant to fans in 2007, Pedro Martinez in 2004 meant a lot more. And Theo didn't let "rabid Bostonians" force him to keep one of the greatest pitchers ever when the terms would have been too much.

Johnny Damon was pretty popular in 2005, too, and Pedro let him go. Lowe won all three clinchers in 2004, and he left, too.

Nobody forces anything on Theo.

[E5 Yaz]

Rosenthal really has no clue what is going on. In the matter of two hours he goes from Lowell for Ramirez is just "Sox kicking tires" to "done deal" to "this thing could blow up." Is he just grabbing any random source he can find on this and shooting it out there?

Actually, that's exactly how things transpire ... especially at the Winter Meetings

[ScubaSteveAvery]

Actually, that's exactly how things transpire ... especially at the Winter Meetings

Theo should have held a press conference at 9:00pm with a banner that read "Mission Accomplished."

[SoxFanSince57]

I was a big Max Ramirez fan last off-season during the team's unsuccessful search for the "catcher of the future". He has been a monster hitter all the way through the minors, but based on all the reports from last winter, I tend to doubt that he will ever be a catcher or 1B in Boston. Given the team's emphasis on defense, I would bet that the Sox only regard him as potential DH. Wonder if they will stash him in AAA next season as a candidate to replace Ortiz in 2011.

I am intrigued with the idea that he may be part of a package for someone else, but feel that the Sox "just" got the best prospect they could for Mike Lowell.

Sure hope his wrists are healed.

Edited by SoxFanSince57, 10 December 2009 - 08:29 AM.

[Ed Hillel]

No it wasn't. Yes, people love Lowell as a person, including me. But I'd say as much as Mike Lowell meant to fans in 2007, Pedro Martinez in 2004 meant a lot more. And Theo didn't let "rabid Bostonians" force him to keep one of the greatest pitchers ever when the terms would have been too much.

Johnny Damon was pretty popular in 2005, too, and Pedro let him go. Lowe won all three clinchers in 2004, and he left, too.

Nobody forces anything on Theo.

The fans in Boston had seen enough of Pedro to know he was in decline, and Pedro said a few things about management that struck some fans the same way. Fans were sad to see him go, but I think people generally understood that it was his time. That decline hadn't quite happened yet with Lowell (at least in front of Sox fans), and Lowell was always saying the right things at the right time. The Sox also signed Jason Varitek in 2004, which kept the fans happy.

In 2005, Damon went to the Yankees, and the blind hatred for them covered that and transferred to Damon. The Sox also consummated a blockbuster trade that netted us Josh Beckett (and some scrub named Lowell). The fans were happy.

In 2007, the Yankees signed ARod again to a megadeal, and the Sox had done nothing. As there is every single year, there was huge pressure for the FO to sign a big name FA. People wanted that man to be Lowell, because he was the WS MVP, and a great guy, and played so well, etc. If ARod, the loser, can get 300 over 10 years, why can't Lowell, the winner, get 37.5 over 3? Since there were no other major signings, I believe the FO felt pressured to just make it happen even if they thought the deal was a year too long. That doesn't mean they HAD to do it, but I can certainly understand why they did.

Even with all that said, though, it's not a backbreaking deal or anything like that for a big market team like the Sox. Lowell was serviceable-ish for a couple of years and they can afford to eat the 12 million now. And if Max Ramirez can get over his injury, the guy has some nice potential at the plate or as trade bait.

Edited by Ed Hillel, 10 December 2009 - 02:42 AM.

[curly2]

In 2007, the Yankees signed ARod again to a megadeal, and the Sox had done nothing. As there is every single year, there was huge pressure for the FO to sign a big name FA. People wanted that man to be Lowell, because he was the WS MVP, and a great guy, and played so well, etc. If ARod, the loser, can get 300 over 10 years, why can't Lowell, the winner, get 37.5 over 3? Since there were no other major signings, I believe the FO felt pressured to just make it happen even if they thought the deal was a year too long. That doesn't mean they HAD to do it, but I can certainly understand why they did.

When the Sox signed Lowell, A-Rod, who had opted out of his contract, was a free agent who Hank Steinbrenner said the Yankees would NOT sign. Lowell signed on Nov. 19. A-Rod signed his megadeal on Dec. 13.

[E5 Yaz]

When the Sox signed Lowell, A-Rod, who had opted out of his contract, was a free agent who Hank Steinbrenner said the Yankees would NOT sign. Lowell signed on Nov. 19. A-Rod signed his megadeal on Dec. 13.

And there was absolutely no one who believed that ARod was going to wind up anywhere else but with the Yankees. IIRC, the Hankenstein comments even made ARod's return to NY even more likely in the majority of those commenting on the situation

[curly2]

And there was absolutely no one who believed that ARod was going to wind up anywhere else but with the Yankees. IIRC, the Hankenstein comments even made ARod's return to NY even more likely in the majority of those commenting on the situation

True, most people expected A-Rod to return, but signing Lowell was not a response to his 10-year deal. The larger point is that I just don't believe Theo makes deals under fan pressure. He could have chosen to let Lowell go and it still would have been impossible to get a ticket in 2008.

I'll drop the thread-jack now.

[SoxScout]

Heyman and Brown both are tweeting the framework is done, but the both are still mulling. Heyman says good chance TX gets Lowell.

[Hoser Awfulman]

MLB Trade Rumors updated that Heyman is reportingSox kicking in about $8-9M.

Heyman also saying on SI.com that Texas is signing Harden for $7.5M guaranteed, so we can cross him off our reclamation list.

[BigJimEd]

I was one who thought Ramirez might be worth a look last offseason. He had a poor season but injuries likely played a big factor. There are significant questions about his D. However, I remember some scouts last off season saying he was improving.

[The Boomer]

Any possibility that Ramirez could be used for a bigger deal to get a first baseman/third baseman/starting pitcher? Does he have any trade value left to other teams?

He would be a perfect piece to flip in a deal with other major league ready but not crucial prospects (e.g. Bowden, Lars Andersen) to get arbitration eligible switchhitting Ryan Doumit from the Pirates. He and V Mart would perfectly complement each other dividing time between 1B and catcher (with Youks shifting to 3B). A. Beltre might be too costly and, as with Bay and Holiday, I see the Sox drawing a line in the sand for him in terms of how much and for how long they would sign him. Nick Johnson, if you are willing to take on the injury risk, wold be another more reasonably priced option in free agency.

[Miskatonic PhD]

He would be a perfect piece to flip in a deal with other major league ready but not crucial prospects (e.g. Bowden, Lars Andersen) to get arbitration eligible switchhitting Ryan Doumit from the Pirates. He and V Mart would perfectly complement each other dividing time between 1B and catcher (with Youks shifting to 3B). A. Beltre might be too costly and, as with Bay and Holiday, I see the Sox drawing a line in the sand for him in terms of how much and for how long they would sign him. Nick Johnson, if you are willing to take on the injury risk, wold be another more reasonably priced option in free agency.

While I'm not a Beltre fan, at least he's a FA. Speculatively throwing out names like Doumit is not helpful. More to the point, you've just eaten up to 12 million on Lowell, and NOW you want to go cheap?

Oy.

[someoneanywhere]

I was one who thought Ramirez might be worth a look last offseason. He had a poor season but injuries likely played a big factor. There are significant questions about his D. However, I remember some scouts last off season saying he was improving.

If you go back and read Ramirez's history -- I did this morning in the database at Baseball America -- that has been the line on him for the better part of his minor-league career. You can read that two ways, at least. First, that his bat is so good (there is no real scouting question there) that the reports are trying to justify moving him along by noting improvement; or, that he has, as many catchers do, genuinely shown defensive improvement as he's matured into the position. I guess all I'm really pointing out here, without making any judgment about it, is that "scouts say he was improving" is a line tied to Ramirez like a tin can on a cat's tail.

I found the last bit in the report -- from a scout talking Ramirez in July 2007 -- especially telling.

“You have to love the bat, but you somewhat question his overall tools defensively,” the scout said. “Still, if he can catch a little bit I don’t think you can ignore the offensive potential. This is definitely a guy who will hit for high average and I think he’ll be a guy who has the ceiling to hit 20 homers a year in the big leagues.

“He smokes balls to right-center (as a righthanded hitter). I mean, he just wears out that gap. But there’s also big power to that side of the field, which is impressive. He hits to all fields, he’s not afraid to shorten up his stroke when he has to . . . he’s just the complete package as a hitter. He turns on inside fastballs like nobody’s business and handles offspeed pitches well. Great pitch recognition.

“The only things Victor Martinez had on him at this stage is his ability to hit from both sides of the plate with a little more raw power. They’re both even in terms of their defensive ability at the same level."