223 replies to this topic

[Sille Skrub]

Moss is going to make spectacular catches when he has 2 steps on the coverage but aside from that he has been abysmal this season.

Abysmal? Really?

If this is abysmal, I'll take 22 Homebrew abysmal™ guys on my team every day of the week and twice on Sundays. Bonus points if those guys have the same team attitude Moss has shown during his tenure in NE.

Receptions - 7th in the league
Receiving yards - 1st in the league
Receiving TD's - tied for 2nd in the league

The Pats are a flawed team no doubt, but Moss is far from the problem.

[HomeBrew1901]

Abysmal? Really?

The Pats are a flawed team no doubt, but Moss is far from the problem.

Ok Point taken, abysmal is the wrong word.

But Moss is not far from the problem because I think Brady was a far better quarterback (2007 excluded) when he didn't have Moss to throw to because I think he looks for him too often. Personally I'll take 7 Welkers over 7 Moss' any day.

[Mystic Merlin]

Ok Point taken, abysmal is the wrong word.

But Moss is not far from the problem because I think Brady was a far better quarterback (2007 excluded) when he didn't have Moss to throw to because I think he looks for him too often. Personally I'll take 7 Welkers over 7 Moss' any day.

I'd like to see you elaborate on this - I think the point is complete bullshit, but I'm willing to hear your rationale.

I.e., I think you're totally overestimating how many targets Moss gets per game. You also seem to misunderstand Welker and Moss's roles; they play two different positions on the field, and I have a difficult time believing anyone watching the games doesn't see how Moss opens the middle of the field up for Welker by drawing double teams (which, of course, he even beats sometimes, something Welker doesn't really do).

I also think you have a warped view of Brady's past seasons, which saw some really good to great defenses supporting him. I mean, these are some really strong assertions ('far better QB'?), and I don't really understand your logic.

[HomeBrew1901]

I guess it depends on why you think the Patriots signed Moss.

If they signed him to be a decoy to open up the field for Welker and make one or two spectacular catches a game then he was a great signing. I just think the Patriots expected more when they extended his contract and either because of his age or desire he can't beat a really good corner or double coverage anymore. There are a lot of great receivers that get double coverage every game and still make their share of plays whereas Moss can't seem to get open anymore and can't be relied upon for anything other than the one big play a game (I know this is starting to veer off into Buddy Ryan's "all he does is catch touchdowns" territory but that isn't my intention).

I also think you have a warped view of Brady's past seasons, which saw some really good to great defenses supporting him. I mean, these are some really strong assertions ('far better QB'?), and I don't really understand your logi

I'll grant you this, his offensive line and defense isn't even in the same league as they were in the JAG receiver years, so it is quite possible that those are warping my perception, but it seems that even when Brady does have time he doesn't have anyone to throw it to because everyone is on Moss and Welker and really he doesn't have anyone else to throw it to.

Which I guess proves that Moss isn't the problem near as much as Brady doesn't have any other options outside of Moss and Welker, so I just talked myself out of my own argument. Shit, I hate when that happens.

[teddykgb]

The problem with Moss, and I wish Felger would phrase it as such, is the same problem he's had his whole career--he's just not a complete receiver. He has tremendous speed and is great at catching the long ball. He just can't run every route on the field, so if you have some talent and scheme for him, you can take him away. In a lot of ways, it's why Welker is so perfect a complement to him, Welker runs all of those routes well, but you end up with both guys being very typecast, which makes them much more predictable. If Moss could really work the middle of the field and run his ins, slants, and comebacks and create separation off his deep threat, he'd be a more complete receiver and be able to beat more coverages. Now, whether that's a Randy problem or whether that's an coordinator problem I don't know. This is a long time knock on Moss and it's why it's so hard to hear people compare him to the Fitzgeralds of the world. Just different players.

[Sille Skrub]

breaking out...

[Mystic Merlin]

I guess it depends on why you think the Patriots signed Moss.

If they signed him to be a decoy to open up the field for Welker and make one or two spectacular catches a game then he was a great signing. I just think the Patriots expected more when they extended his contract and either because of his age or desire he can't beat a really good corner or double coverage anymore. There are a lot of great receivers that get double coverage every game and still make their share of plays whereas Moss can't seem to get open anymore and can't be relied upon for anything other than the one big play a game (I know this is starting to veer off into Buddy Ryan's "all he does is catch touchdowns" territory but that isn't my intention).

Then how is he near the top of the league in most receiving stats? I mean, he's not going to catch 100 balls and never has even remotely approached that total. He's a thoroughbred WR, not a Larry Fitzgerald-type. He has gamebreaking speed and talent few have, even if he operates mostly outside the hash marks, and I don't know what receiver people had been watching in Oakland and Minnesota. I don't think the Patriots expected any more than what they've received: a level of performance befitting a top 5 NFL WR.

You're mistakenly expecting him to be a player he never has been.

Also, when I mentioned his 'decoy' role, that obviously doesn't operate mutually exclusive of his actual production. Look at his game logs and stat line: he's having a huge impact. I just meant to emphasize how he demands double coverage and perhaps I demeaned his importance to the team by using that specific term.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Ok Point taken, abysmal is the wrong word.

But Moss is not far from the problem because I think Brady was a far better quarterback (2007 excluded) when he didn't have Moss to throw to because I think he looks for him too often. Personally I'll take 7 Welkers over 7 Moss' any day.

That's Brady's problem, not Moss'. If Brady's dumb enough to pull a Favre and just huck it up there every time expecting Randy to go up and get every one, then Brady's the one with the problem. Hell, Brady tried to do that yesterday on the INT in the end zone when Randy was double-covered but threw a line drive for the easiest pickoff Vontae Davis will ever see. It was a lazy and stupid throw and 100% Brady's fault.

[DaughtersofDougMirabelli]

I.e., I think you're totally overestimating how many targets Moss gets per game. You also seem to misunderstand Welker and Moss's roles; they play two different positions on the field, and I have a difficult time believing anyone watching the games doesn't see how Moss opens the middle of the field up for Welker by drawing double teams (which, of course, he even beats sometimes, something Welker doesn't really do).

Doesn't seem like his targets are out of the ordinary. As the WR1 on a pass first offense he is currently targeted 7th most in the NFL. His catch% is a bit lower than some of the top tier WR/QB combos which can be attributed to the fact that balls thrown his way have a lower success rate than those passed to possession type receivers (5-10 yarders compared to 20-40 yarders).

Target Report Top 10

Player	Pos	Tm	Targets	Rec	Catch%	ReYds	ReTds	TotPass	Thrown%
Andre Johnson	WR	HOU	130	70	0.54	1044	6	443	0.29
Roddy White	WR	ATL	127	65	0.51	874	8	432	0.29
Larry Fitzgerald	WR	ARZ	125	83	0.66	969	10	460	0.27
Wes Welker	WR	NE	122	95	0.78	1053	4	473	0.26
Reggie Wayne	WR	IND	121	83	0.69	1035	9	460	0.26
Steve Smith	WR	NYG	119	78	0.66	979	5	403	0.30
Randy Moss	WR	NE	116	68	0.59	1058	9	473	0.25
Santonio Holmes	WR	PIT	105	64	0.61	987	3	396	0.27
T.J. Houshmandzadeh	WR	SEA	104	61	0.59	669	3	458	0.23
Brandon Marshall	WR	DEN	104	65	0.63	808	7	386	0.27

[bakahump]

That's Brady's problem, not Moss'. If Brady's dumb enough to pull a Favre and just huck it up there every time expecting Randy to go up and get every one, then Brady's the one with the problem. Hell, Brady tried to do that yesterday on the INT in the end zone when Randy was double-covered but threw a line drive for the easiest pickoff Vontae Davis will ever see. It was a lazy and stupid throw and 100% Brady's fault.

No one has been more vocal about Randy recently then me.

I will hedge by saying that the "Randy Moss Problem" is not or may not Just be Randy Moss.

Its Brady and his "wasting" 1-2 plays a series throwing 40 yds to RM. Whats the completion % on throws that far? Why continue to force it? Will RM sulk otherwise??? I dont know. He has been a model citizen as far as I have ever heard.....but in past stops this kind of rumor was rampant.

Its the fact that 75-80-90% of RM routes are "I am going that way VERY Fast, I will not cut." Is that a Play call issue? (I imagine it must be as RM cant simply freelance). Or does Randy "avoid" going over the middle? A safet (WAY) over the Top is negating RMs contribution to the team. How does the Pats and RM use that against a Defense?

Is it a coaching issue Or Talent? With Randy taking 2 guys 30 yds upfield every play why isnt someone OTHER THEN Welker Open?

Is the Line so bad now that RM is less effective due to lack of time? If so then the Coaches AND RM need to get him effective.

Has Brady drank the cool aid? Every announcer out there (and many fans) all say "With a Randy Moss you throw it up there and let him go get it!" As SJH rightly points out....thats STUPID. Especially for a QB who made his bones being Very Accurate on the Short and Intermediate stuff.

Regardless.....SOMETHING IS WRONG. When he makes 2 catches.........in a big Divisional game.....Something is very wrong with "RM".

[teddykgb]

That's Brady's problem, not Moss'. If Brady's dumb enough to pull a Favre and just huck it up there every time expecting Randy to go up and get every one, then Brady's the one with the problem. Hell, Brady tried to do that yesterday on the INT in the end zone when Randy was double-covered but threw a line drive for the easiest pickoff Vontae Davis will ever see. It was a lazy and stupid throw and 100% Brady's fault.

Agreed on this completely. Hearing people try to blame Moss today for that abortion of a throw is very frustrating. That play used to be a bread and butter play for the Pats, and I think the loss of that end zone fade route has been one reason why the red zone efficiency has dipped (seemed like they canned it last year because Cassell just couldn't throw it properly, can't imagine they've forgotten it since). The throw was just not anywhere near where it needed to be, unless Brady was anticipating Moss coming inside the corner, in which case he didn't see the double team and the throw is still atrocious.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

No one has been more vocal about Randy recently then me.

I will hedge by saying that the "Randy Moss Problem" is not or may not Just be Randy Moss.

Its Brady and his "wasting" 1-2 plays a series throwing 40 yds to RM. Whats the completion % on throws that far? Why continue to force it? Will RM sulk otherwise??? I dont know. He has been a model citizen as far as I have ever heard.....but in past stops this kind of rumor was rampant.

Its the fact that 75-80-90% of RM routes are "I am going that way VERY Fast, I will not cut." Is that a Play call issue? (I imagine it must be as RM cant simply freelance). Or does Randy "avoid" going over the middle? A safet (WAY) over the Top is negating RMs contribution to the team. How does the Pats and RM use that against a Defense?

Is it a coaching issue Or Talent? With Randy taking 2 guys 30 yds upfield every play why isnt someone OTHER THEN Welker Open?

Is the Line so bad now that RM is less effective due to lack of time? If so then the Coaches AND RM need to get him effective.

Has Brady drank the cool aid? Every announcer out there (and many fans) all say "With a Randy Moss you throw it up there and let him go get it!" As SJH rightly points out....thats STUPID. Especially for a QB who made his bones being Very Accurate on the Short and Intermediate stuff.

Regardless.....SOMETHING IS WRONG. When he makes 2 catches.........in a big Divisional game.....Something is very wrong with "RM".

Jeez, baka, I know full well you watched the game yesterday. How could you say all the long throws are to Moss?

Brady was throwing deep to EVERYONE yesterday. The long TD to Moss. The bomb to Welker for 50+. Just missing another 50+ yard catch by Aiken. The long incomplete in the 4th off Aiken's hands. Another long incomplete to Welker on 3rd and 6.

Stop focusing on Moss. He is not the problem. The QB's decision making process is a problem. The coaching scheme calling for Brady to just chuck it up there is a problem. The inability to get key first downs is a problem. The four inches between Brady's ears are a big problem lately. His decision-making has been Cutler-esque.

[Synovia]

There are a lot of great receivers that get double coverage every game and still make their share of plays whereas Moss can't seem to get open anymore and can't be relied upon for anything other than the one big play a game

We're talking about the guy who leads the league in receiving yards, right?


I agree with you that Brady tries to force too many balls to him, but thats not a problem with Moss. Thats Brady.

[teddykgb]

Doesn't seem like his targets are out of the ordinary. As the WR1 on a pass first offense he is currently targeted 7th most in the NFL. His catch% is a bit lower than some of the top tier WR/QB combos which can be attributed to the fact that balls thrown his way have a lower success rate than those passed to possession type receivers (5-10 yarders compared to 20-40 yarders).

Target Report Top 10

Player	Pos	Tm	Targets	Rec	Catch%	ReYds	ReTds	TotPass	Thrown%
Andre Johnson	WR	HOU	130	70	0.54	1044	6	443	0.29
Roddy White	WR	ATL	127	65	0.51	874	8	432	0.29
Larry Fitzgerald	WR	ARZ	125	83	0.66	969	10	460	0.27
Wes Welker	WR	NE	122	95	0.78	1053	4	473	0.26
Reggie Wayne	WR	IND	121	83	0.69	1035	9	460	0.26
Steve Smith	WR	NYG	119	78	0.66	979	5	403	0.30
Randy Moss	WR	NE	116	68	0.59	1058	9	473	0.25
Santonio Holmes	WR	PIT	105	64	0.61	987	3	396	0.27
T.J. Houshmandzadeh	WR	SEA	104	61	0.59	669	3	458	0.23
Brandon Marshall	WR	DEN	104	65	0.63	808	7	386	0.27

Man, that data is surprising. So Moss + Welker only get 51% of the team's targets? Who the hell is being thrown to the other 49% of the time? Feels like those two get 80%...hell, given the success rate, maybe they're not throwing to those guys enough.

[Super Nomario]

Jeez, baka, I know full well you watched the game yesterday. How could you say all the long throws are to Moss?

Brady was throwing deep to EVERYONE yesterday. The long TD to Moss. The bomb to Welker for 50+. Just missing another 50+ yard catch by Aiken. The long incomplete in the 4th off Aiken's hands. Another long incomplete to Welker on 3rd and 6.

Stop focusing on Moss. He is not the problem. The QB's decision making process is a problem. The coaching scheme calling for Brady to just chuck it up there is a problem. The inability to get key first downs is a problem. The four inches between Brady's ears are a big problem lately. His decision-making has been Cutler-esque.

This is ridiculous - Cutler's problem isn't that he throws deep, it's that he throws deep into triple coverage. The long bombs Brady threw yesterday were good decisions - he just missed on two of them late. Brady's accuracy was the problem, not his decision making - he had guys open deep, what is he supposed to do, throw to guys short who are covered?

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

This is ridiculous - Cutler's problem isn't that he throws deep, it's that he throws deep into triple coverage. The long bombs Brady threw yesterday were good decisions - he just missed on two of them late. Brady's accuracy was the problem, not his decision making - he had guys open deep, what is he supposed to do, throw to guys short who are covered?

Several times yesterday he threw into double coverage. The pick in the end zone was into double coverage. The long incomplete to Aiken late was into double coverage. The long attempt to Welker on 3rd down was into double coverage.

He threw some balls late. He made very poor decisions on others. Whatever happened to taking what the defense gave you and hitting those 10-15 yarders? Lately Brady's been trying to get the TD all in one play. It's fucking maddening. It's entirely opposite of the way they used to win games in the SB years and I cannot for the life of me understand why they got away from it.

[lithos2003]

That's Brady's problem, not Moss'. If Brady's dumb enough to pull a Favre and just huck it up there every time expecting Randy to go up and get every one, then Brady's the one with the problem. Hell, Brady tried to do that yesterday on the INT in the end zone when Randy was double-covered but threw a line drive for the easiest pickoff Vontae Davis will ever see. It was a lazy and stupid throw and 100% Brady's fault.

I'm not going to pretend that the INT wasn't 100% Brady's fault, but, would it have killed Moss to at least try to break it up when he saw it wasn't coming for him? Sometimes I wonder whether or not Moss is 100% invested in this year's team. I don't see him hanging around Brady and talking on the sidelines anymore. To be fair, I don't think Moss is THE problem on this team or anything, but maybe his attitude lately is an example of what Brady was talking about when he said people are not giving full effort for 60 minutes...

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I'm not going to pretend that the INT wasn't 100% Brady's fault, but, would it have killed Moss to at least try to break it up when he saw it wasn't coming for him? Sometimes I wonder whether or not Moss is 100% invested in this year's team. I don't see him hanging around Brady and talking on the sidelines anymore. To be fair, I don't think Moss is THE problem on this team or anything, but maybe his attitude lately is an example of what Brady was talking about when he said people are not giving full effort for 60 minutes...

You're insane. The ball was supposed to be a fade. Brady threw it short and low. Davis was in such good position it was as if he was the intended receiver, not Moss. Moss couldn't do anything about it because it was supposed to be to his back shoulder and he was angled that way.

[Super Nomario]

Several times yesterday he threw into double coverage. The pick in the end zone was into double coverage. The long incomplete to Aiken late was into double coverage. The long attempt to Welker on 3rd down was into double coverage.

He threw some balls late. He made very poor decisions on others. Whatever happened to taking what the defense gave you and hitting those 10-15 yarders? Lately Brady's been trying to get the TD all in one play. It's fucking maddening. It's entirely opposite of the way they used to win games in the SB years and I cannot for the life of me understand why they got away from it.

Sorry, I was referring to the decision-making specifically on those deep balls - he did make a couple stupid throws.

My point is that I think Brady was taking what the defense gave him on these deep balls - Miami wanted to stop the 10-15 yarders and was willing to gamble (in the form of limited / no safety help) that the Pats wouldn't connect on the long ball. For the Dolphins, this was a bad gamble early and a good one late. I didn't think Brady was trying to force the deep ball - it was there, he just missed it.

[Ed Hillel]

Several times yesterday he threw into double coverage. The pick in the end zone was into double coverage. The long incomplete to Aiken late was into double coverage. The long attempt to Welker on 3rd down was into double coverage.

The throw to Moss was terrible. The other two, though, it's much more difficult to tell. Welker was open. Strangely enough, it was Welker who appeared to break off of his route there. If Welker was Brady's possession target there, what is Brady supposed to do other than to make a better throw? In the other situation, Aiken dropped the friggin ball. He absolutely should have caught it. And, in that situation, can we really be mad at Brady for making the throw? Welker was actually again open. The problem was that he and Aiken ran to the exact same spot and cluttered everything up. He probably was not expecting that to happen, since plays are designed not to have it happen. And again, the ball still should have been caught.

The main problem with your argument is that, on most plays, there's really just no way of knowing whether or not Brady made the right or wrong decision. They rarely show replays of the entire field and the camera usually doesn't use a panoramic view of the secondary. Only on certain plays, like the Moss play, is it clear that Brady made a poor decisions. On others we're just guessing.

You're insane. The ball was supposed to be a fade. Brady threw it short and low. Davis was in such good position it was as if he was the intended receiver, not Moss. Moss couldn't do anything about it because it was supposed to be to his back shoulder and he was angled that way.

Disagree. I think it was both a poorly thrown ball AND a poor effort from Moss. Moss kind of stuck his hand in, but once Davis touched the ball Moss stopped moving. He could have at least gone for the strip while the ball wasn't secured in Davis's hands. If you're asking me to diagnose whose fault the play was, though, it's definitely Brady's.

Edited by Ed Hillel, 07 December 2009 - 02:59 PM.

[ifmanis5]

It's fucking maddening. It's entirely opposite of the way they used to win games in the SB years and I cannot for the life of me understand why they got away from it.

Yup. Even more maddening is in the 2nd half, like yesterday when they had a lead and all they had to do was move the chains and eat clock, you'd think the offense would be all about the short patterns, play actions, screens and quick outs of the Weiss-era attack. Nope. More chuck it long into double coverage.
Brady & the offensive coaches need to dig out the films from pre-2007 and re-learn a better work flow. And that's not Moss' "fault."

[SeanBerry]

Going into last week, Randy Moss was leading the NFL in receiving yards.

[lithos2003]

You're insane. The ball was supposed to be a fade. Brady threw it short and low. Davis was in such good position it was as if he was the intended receiver, not Moss. Moss couldn't do anything about it because it was supposed to be to his back shoulder and he was angled that way.

You're probably right, I'm probably insane

I guess I just don't see the 2007 Randy Moss out there on a weekly basis, so that's why I started questioning the little things. He's not getting open like he used to and his body language seems to indicate that this frustrates him. I'm sure it certainly can't help seeing how many catches Welker gets a game. My overall point is, he's been immature about this type of thing before and while I know we all would like to believe he turned a corner when he joined the Pats, it's entirely possible that that was just him reacting to being in a really good situation following a really bad situation.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

You're probably right, I'm probably insane

I guess I just don't see the 2007 Randy Moss out there on a weekly basis, so that's why I started questioning the little things. He's not getting open like he used to and his body language seems to indicate that this frustrates him. I'm sure it certainly can't help seeing how many catches Welker gets a game. My overall point is, he's been immature about this type of thing before and while I know we all would like to believe he turned a corner when he joined the Pats, it's entirely possible that that was just him reacting to being in a really good situation following a really bad situation.

He's 2 years older than he was in 2007 and he's starting to slow down a bit. I don't see any need to make it more complicated than that. And as Berry points out, he was still leading the NFL in receiving yards last week. He's not the problem.

[HomeBrew1901]

Which I guess proves that Moss isn't the problem near as much as Brady doesn't have any other options outside of Moss and Welker, so I just talked myself out of my own argument. Shit, I hate when that happens.

From my follow up post...

What's funny is how many of you decide that you just want to argue my initial point with me when I've already admitted that I was wrong.

[BucketOBalls]

You need throw some deep balls to force the defense to choose between double covering Moss and opening up Welkers routes. I think part of the problem is that the protection is so bad that the deep routes don't have time to develop. Yesterday, Brady missing/drops were also a part of the problem. Brady puts the ball on Moss's back shoulder and he catches it or if Aiken doesn't Watson one and we arn't having this conversation. A couple of thoughts

1) Think they should mostly abandon the spread offense. There seem to be two problems with the Pats spread offense.
a)The protection is so bad with a thin front that Brady just doesn't have enough time to find the holes in the defense.
b)They don't have 5 guys who teams believe can catch the ball.
This allows teams to cheat on the primary options and pretty much stop the shotgun. Not to mention that few times it worked, Brady missed or the receiver dropped the ball.

The problem is, you end with one of the tackles needing help and there isn't anyone. I'd love see something like results by offensive formation, but I have no idea where you would get that.

Edited by BucketOBalls, 07 December 2009 - 03:35 PM.

[Bongorific]

This is ridiculous - Cutler's problem isn't that he throws deep, it's that he throws deep into triple coverage. The long bombs Brady threw yesterday were good decisions - he just missed on two of them late. Brady's accuracy was the problem, not his decision making - he had guys open deep, what is he supposed to do, throw to guys short who are covered?

Several times yesterday he threw into double coverage. The pick in the end zone was into double coverage. The long incomplete to Aiken late was into double coverage. The long attempt to Welker on 3rd down was into double coverage.

He threw some balls late. He made very poor decisions on others. Whatever happened to taking what the defense gave you and hitting those 10-15 yarders? Lately Brady's been trying to get the TD all in one play. It's fucking maddening. It's entirely opposite of the way they used to win games in the SB years and I cannot for the life of me understand why they got away from it.

Sorry, I was referring to the decision-making specifically on those deep balls - he did make a couple stupid throws.

My point is that I think Brady was taking what the defense gave him on these deep balls - Miami wanted to stop the 10-15 yarders and was willing to gamble (in the form of limited / no safety help) that the Pats wouldn't connect on the long ball. For the Dolphins, this was a bad gamble early and a good one late. I didn't think Brady was trying to force the deep ball - it was there, he just missed it.

I'm with Super Nintendo on this one. I'll preface with two points. First, as others have said, it's very difficult to judge a lot of the decisions because the TV presentation doesn't allow us to see the entire field. We really just get to see the pocket the QB got to work with, the flight of the ball, and the result of the throw. It's sort of like judging baseball fielding. We wouldn't know if Jacoby was positioned poorly or just got a bad jump on the fly in the 9th inning of the ALDS unless others that were there told us. Second, football tends to be very reactionary. If Aiken catches the deep ball off his fingers, we wouldn't question it. If Welker catches up to the deep ball on 3rd down that was thrown over double coverage, we would be discussing how amazing Brady was to perfectly place it over the defenders.

Two of Brady's worst decisions yesterday were the the end zone INT and the short pass to Welker's feet in triple coverage in the 4th that was almost picked to end the game. Neither of these were deep passes Brady shouldn't have made. I definitely agree that it has been maddening this year watching the Pats unsuccessfully go deep so often, and at terrible times. It's as if last year, without Brady, they went back to their more conservative play calling that worked so well during the SB years. Then, with Brady back, they said, "fuck it, remember how many awesome plays Brady and Moss made in 2007? Let's start winging it again!" However, regarding some of the plays in question yesterday, maybe Nomario is right. Aiken blew past the coverage and had a shot to ice the game. Welker was able to get some space on double coverage deep. Maybe that was all the defense was giving on those play calls. A debate on the play call, and what routes were run, might be more significant than questioning Brady's throwing decision. He might have been making the correct throw.

[JokersWildJIMED]

Brady & the offensive coaches need to dig out the films from pre-2007 and re-learn a better work flow. And that's not Moss' "fault."

If there is anyone to blame it is Brady, but that is too simplistic. It is certainly not Moss's "fault", although he is one of main the "causes"...if it was not for such a game-changing player as Moss, perhaps the Utah/Florida offense is never implemented.

Brady loses his voice when it comes to Moss, and it has affected his role as a leader on the team. Moss has affected Brady both positively and negatively, and the results so far have been a fundamental change to the team's offense, a change that led initially to a lost Super Bowl. I certainly liked it better when Brady just won games by throwing to seven or eight different receivers in a game.

[Super Nomario]

If there is anyone to blame it is Brady, but that is too simplistic. It is certainly not Moss's "fault", although he is one of main the "causes"...if it was not for such a game-changing player as Moss, perhaps the Utah/Florida offense is never implemented.

Brady loses his voice when it comes to Moss, and it has affected his role as a leader on the team. Moss has affected Brady both positively and negatively, and the results so far have been a fundamental change to the team's offense, a change that led initially to a lost Super Bowl. I certainly liked it better when Brady just won games by throwing to seven or eight different receivers in a game.

Some of what you're saying has some legitimacy, but the Patriots didn't lose that Super Bowl because Brady was forcing the ball to Moss - they lost it because the O-Line, which had been spectacular all year (only 24 sacks allowed in 18 games) was completely unable to handle the Giants' pass rush. Last year the trend continued, with the Pats allowing 48 sacks (some of which, no doubt, was the inexperienced Cassel holding on to the ball too long). This year, Brady's only been sacked 15 times, but he's been battered repeatedly, including yesterday.

[Myt1]

If there is anyone to blame it is Brady, but that is too simplistic. It is certainly not Moss's "fault", although he is one of main the "causes"...if it was not for such a game-changing player as Moss, perhaps the Utah/Florida offense is never implemented.

Brady loses his voice when it comes to Moss, and it has affected his role as a leader on the team. Moss has affected Brady both positively and negatively, and the results so far have been a fundamental change to the team's offense, a change that led initially to a lost Super Bowl. I certainly liked it better when Brady just won games by throwing to seven or eight different receivers in a game.

He completed passes to 7 receivers yesterday. Moss was only targeted 5 times to Welker's 13. And Brady won those games in no small part because he had a defense that could cover receivers, put pressure on the QB, and actually make tackles, which he doesn't have this year.

I like having Randy Moss because he's fucking awesome and makes the Patriots a drastically better team. The Patriots have left a ton of points on the field this season because of Brady's failure to execute. Combine that with the questionable play calling (e.g. taking your two best receivers out and putting in a tailback at the FB position on a 4th and short, and the desire to call slow moving draw plays on 3rd and 6) and you have the reasons why the offense goes through bouts of uselessness.

Moss is only a problem inasmuch as having really awesome players is a detriment.

[dwightinright]

Not all long throws are created equal. The long TD to Moss was a great play and a great route. He and the other receivers set up the DBs, and Moss rubbed one off when he crossed the field, and he had a couple steps on everyone, even though he was technically being double covered. As long as the pass is thrown long enough, it's a TD. A deep throw to Welker always seems to be when he heads up the seam, because he seems to run a slant or crossing route 94% of the time, and he catches everyone asleep.

Heave hos because Moss is a gifted receiver are another thing. In certain situations, it's an okay play-call (maybe 2nd and 1 or something), but just going long for no reason (other than Moss's talent) makes little sense.

[jsinger121]

Jon (New England)


Mort, what is the likehood that Randy Moss is with the Patriots next year? It seems Brady has been a better QB with more Welker types than Moss types. Is this up to BB or Brady?

Chris Mortensen (11:06 AM)


I think Moss and Welker complement each other. And if you look at Moss' stats since he arrived in New England, it's hard to project him being gone. HOWEVER, Moss appears to me to be slipping into some old habits that can distance himself from the team and, perhaps, the quarterback. I'm going to watch as the season winds down.

[lithos2003]

That's what I was saying earlier in the thread... Believe me, as a Pats fan I'm hoping and praying it's not true, but it does seem like he's pouting more and he and Brady seem to not be on the same page much of the time. Look at the screen pass that Brady decided to dump to Moss in last week's game against Miami. He wasn't even looking for it. I know it's a hard play to predict, but in 2007, they just needed to look at each other the right way and they were on the same page, it seemed.

[Alternate34]

Several times yesterday he threw into double coverage. The pick in the end zone was into double coverage. The long incomplete to Aiken late was into double coverage. The long attempt to Welker on 3rd down was into double coverage.

He threw some balls late. He made very poor decisions on others. Whatever happened to taking what the defense gave you and hitting those 10-15 yarders? Lately Brady's been trying to get the TD all in one play. It's fucking maddening. It's entirely opposite of the way they used to win games in the SB years and I cannot for the life of me understand why they got away from it.

Because their defense sucks shit compared to the Super Bowl defenses. Chad Henne was able to march down the field on this defense. A good defense allows you to go ball control because you don't need as many points to win. Throw for first downs, don't worry too much about a deep strike, and get good field position. If you don't score a TD, it's not a big deal because your defense will never let up a TD drive of 80 yards, and has a good chance of getting a turnover and giving you awesome field position.

I don't like Brady missing long TD passes, but the offense doesn't just become better if they go for shorter passes and first downs. They score less points, give the ball to the other team, and watch their defense give the game away.

[Miskatonic PhD]

Defense no longer super-elite, giving less room for error.

Offensive line a sell of its former self, making for less time/protection hurts passing game.

No 3rd option at receiver lets teams key more on Moss/Welker.

Brady possibly still rounding into form after horrific injury.

People getting older.

Questionable play calling being raised as a potential concern.

Every great team goes through this towards the end of a dynastic run, with the possible exception of play calling, etc. I think some of the problem here is that people want to put their fingers on one, presumably fixable issue, when in fact there's a lot of rust setting in.

[Synovia]

I don't like Brady missing long TD passes, but the offense doesn't just become better if they go for shorter passes and first downs. They score less points, give the ball to the other team, and watch their defense give the game away.

Actually, thats pretty much the opposite of what happens when they throw short more often. This offense is much more effective working underneath.

[Rick Burlesons Yam Bag]

I didn't see this. Did the team put out a statement? I only read that Belichick wouldn't comment on discipline matters which has been the norm.

My apologies, you are correct. The team did not make a statement one way or another. I heard it from a phone call from a Pats fan, I just assumed.

[Bellhorn]

It's interesting to note that Moss's catch rate is virtually the same this year (59%) as it was in 2007 (61%), and is on pace for 143 targets, not wildly different from 160 in 2007. The spectacular big-gain success hasn't been there at nearly the same rate this year, but I don't see much evidence that Brady has been going overboard with low-percentage throws in his direction.

[Rocco Graziosa]

Looked like Moss checked out today. Brady gave him an earful near the end, but it was unclear whether it was "calling him out". It will be interesting to see how this plays out.........late to practice Wednesday followed by an absolute stinker today and you can be sure the moutbreathers in the press and talk shows will be out in full force. Does Moss take the bait and let this whole thing go south like it did in the end in Minnesota and Oakland? Should be interesting.

[Obstructed View]

Looked like Moss checked out today. Brady gave him an earful near the end, but it was unclear whether it was "calling him out". It will be interesting to see how this plays out.........late to practice Wednesday followed by an absolute stinker today and you can be sure the moutbreathers in the press and talk shows will be out in full force. Does Moss take the bait and let this whole thing go south like it did in the end in Minnesota and Oakland? Should be interesting.

I doubt he takes the bait; they are 8-5, and with a strong finish will be in decent shape. He can still shake of the past few doggish games.

My guess is that he doesn't talk to the press and the team circles the wagons to protect their man.

[Mooch]

I think Moss is playing hurt and is pretty far from 100% out there.

[Rocco Graziosa]

I think Moss is playing hurt and is pretty far from 100% out there.

Do you honestly think that was what was going on out there?

[Mystic Merlin]

Do you honestly think that was what was going on out there?

My take:

He gives up when things don't go well. Plain and simple. He isn't ignoring the coaches or moping about not getting the ball; instead, he just shuts down when he makes a mistake.

It's not a good sign, but at least it isn't disgruntlement.

[lithos2003]

My take:

He gives up when things don't go well. Plain and simple. He isn't ignoring the coaches or moping about not getting the ball; instead, he just shuts down when he makes a mistake.

It's not a good sign, but at least it isn't disgruntlement.

After today, I think it's fairly obvious that Moss isn't giving 100%. No one should question that now.

[smokin joe wood]

Panthers say Moss shut it down

Ouch.

"We knew he was going to shut it down," Panthers corner Chris Gamble told me after the game. "That’s what we wanted to do him. That’s what we did. ... He’d just give up a lot – Slow down, he’s not going deep, not trying to run a route. You can tell, his body language."

"You get physical with him, and I don’t want to say he quits, but he kind of doesn’t run the routes the way they’re supposed to be run," safety Chris Harris told me after that. "If you get a jam on him, he’ll just ease up. He had the one catch, and he fumbled. ... We stayed on top of him. We were not gonna let him catch a deep pass. That’s his game. If he can’t get it going, he gets out of sync."

Gamble said, "We know from watching film on Moss, once you get him out of the game early, he’s gonna shut it down."

Edited by smokin joe wood, 13 December 2009 - 06:00 PM.

[KenTremendous]

Panthers say Moss shut it down

Ouch.

I wish I thought this would motivate him.

[kolbitr]

I think that what is happening now is just what happened after his domestic incident in 2008: he is feeling criticized, he feels like the world is an unfair place, he feels misunderstood and maybe even feels like he screwed up, and when that happens he gets unfocused and insecure. And his game suffers. I don't think that he is quitting, but he's shown time and again that he is a very temperamental and emotional guy, who doesn't seem to fight through bad times. You'd like to think he'd have grown past that, but he isn't going to.


The good news, I guess, is that if this is accurate, it won't take much for him to change back. A good week of practice, some good times, and some support, and the manchild will be making highlight reel catches again.

They needed this game badly, and they did it without Randy. But to do anything in the playoffs they'll need him to pull himself together.

[dcmissle]

Panthers say Moss shut it down

Ouch.

With a 5 and 8 record, I would be saying nothing. They are DBs in more than one sense of the word.

[Mooch]

So the Panthers forced Moss to shut it down as part of the their game plan...


...and in the process, gave up 185 yards rushing and allowed Wes Welker to take over the second half.

Great job, guys. Way to go.

[Reverend]

So the Panthers forced Moss to shut it down as part of the their game plan...


...and in the process, gave up 185 yards rushing and allowed Wes Welker to take over the second half.

Great job, guys. Way to go.

This is kind of how I feel about the notion that the passing game is a team effort.

That said, I would like to see Moss look much better than he did. That one drop wasn't right, and we know Brady doesn't think it's ok.

Belichick didn't hammer Moss in the press conference like he did AT though, so that suggests they think this is redeemable.