1019 replies to this topic

[Foulkey Reese]

That makes me a saaaaad panda.

LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE!

[rembrat]

I don't understand the Hamels hate. Dude is a career 122 ERA+, a 3.79 FIP, 8K/9, and 2BB/9 pitcher. He can hold down that lineup especially a lineup that isn't doing much outside of 2 hitters.

[RIrooter09]

Hammels and Joe Blanton? A competitive series that's tied 1-1 is gonna turn into 3-1 real quick.

I don't understand why Manuel is dead set on starting Blanton over Happ. Their numbers are fairly similar (Happ leads in FIP, WHIP, ERA and HR/9 while Blanton has the edge in K/9 and K/BB).

[Kilgore A. Trout]

You're kidding, right? Kevin Brown?!

I had a feeling that some Yankees fan was going to irrationally latch onto that last name even as I typed it as if it would refute anything.

I would bet almost anything that - should a Yankee fan have mentioned any of those pitchers as an "ace" while they wore pinstripes - you would have had a host of reasons why they weren't ace material.

Um, they did. Often and repeatedly.
And even if they hadn't, I can think of a host of reasons why Sabathia isn't too. None of them are really that good, but I doubt there would be any for a lot of those pitchers in their given Yankees years.

From 2003 to this year, the Yanks lacked a true front of the rotation starter. Not for lack of trying to find one. They just made poor bets. Wang was good, but hittable. RJ was decent, but old/inconsistent. Mussina was decent, as well, but also inconsistent after 2003 (4.14 ERA/1.287 WHIP from 03-08). Clemens was gone after 2003. As was Pettitte. And when those two came back, it wasn't to be the ace of the staff.

I said the choking started in 2001, not 2003. Nice try though.
Also, its really fascinating to see how quickly and easily Yankee fans are ready to dismiss their former players once they don't help the team win anymore by retiring, getting traded, or signing elsewhere. Sticking to this claim that somehow the Yankees haven't had a real ace till this year has to be one of the most absurd arguments I have ever heard on here.
So absurd that I feel compelled to actually defend Yankee pitchers. And I never thought that would happen.
But here we go:

Roger Clemens and his HGH achieved a record of 20-3, with 213 SO, a 1.257 WHIP, and an ERA+ of 128 in 220.1 innings in 2001. That's an ace.
In 2003 he went 17-9, with 190 SO, a 1.214 WHIP, and a 112 ERA+ in 211 innings. Also an ace.

Randy Johnson in 2005 went 17-8, had 211 SO, a 112 ERA+, and a WHIP of 1.126 in 225.2 innings. Ace.
In 2006, he went 17-11, had 172 SO, 90 ERA+, 1.239 WHIP in 205 innings. Not as good as the year previous, but yeah, also still an ace.

Wang (your comment about Wang being hittable is hilarious- he's a contact pitcher) in 2006 went 19-6, had only 76 SO (which you would expect from a contact pitcher), an ERA+ of 124, and a WHIP of 1.307 in 218 innings. That's an ace.
in 2007 he went 19-7, 104 (again, expected from a pitcher like him), and ERA+ 121, and a WHIP of 1.294 in 199 innings. Ace.

Mike Mussina
2001 17-11, 214 SO, 142 ERA+, 1.067 WHIP, 228.2 IP- Ace.
2002 18-10 182 SO, 109 ERA+, 1.187 WHIP, 215.2IP- Ace.
2003 17-8, 195 SO, 129 ERA+, 1.08 WHIP, 214 IP- Ace.
Then a drop off for a few years, then:
2006 15-7, 172 SO, 129 ERA+, 1.110 WHIP, 197.1 IP- Ace again.
2008 20-9, 150 SO, 132 ERA+, 1.223 WHIP, 200.1 IP- Going out an ace.

And just for laughs-
Kevin Brown was 10-6, had 83 SO, 110 ERA+, 1.265 WHIP, in 132 innings in '04. Ace? If only he hadn't punched the wall...

Plenty of aces in there. Plenty of ace years. At least one a year since 2001. Often more than one. Some of them equal if not better than CC this year.

Here, let me put it another way: Those guys you mentioned... would you have taken any of them as the "ace" of your staff during the years?

Sure. Gimme Clemens in '01, Johnson in '05, Wang the year before last, and Mussina in any year. Even the weaker ones.
Let me put this to you another way: do you have a problem with your short term memory? Or are you so desperately trying not to face the fact that the Yankees have been baseball's biggest chokers since Luis fisted one to center that you're willing to pretend that New York has been fielding a AAA team until this season?

[nycdoc999]

Ahh the life of a Yankee fan. When you win it's all pomposity and an air of superiority. When you lose it's "whatever 26 championships, I'm already over it." Either way you come off sounding like a douche.

I'm over it b/c my team in the world series, not because of the 26 previous championships. I don't have the same Red Sox hate that many Yankee fans have - and honestly, I would think it would be hard to have the Yankee hate that many people have here, but whatever floats your boat. Before you go on about how I might look, you might want to re-read your posts in this thread and consider how YOU might come off to an objective observer...


2004, like 2003, is ancient history. Your team is playing golf - well everyone except probably Josh Beckett, who's shooting something. You can enjoy the DVDs, and I'll enjoy the World Series. How about that?

[Kilgore A. Trout]

Yup - I didn't even care about the WS, truth be told.

Let me fill you in on what happened:



In short, the Yankees choked.

Also, your 'sentiment' on not caring about the World Series outcome- as much as I hesitate to do this, as I prefer to take people on their word- I call bullshit, total and absolute bullshit.

[nycdoc999]

Let me fill you in on what happened:



In short, the Yankees choked.

Also, your 'sentiment' on not caring about the World Series outcome- as much as I hesitate to do this, as I prefer to take people on their word- I call bullshit, total and absolute bullshit.

Say what you want. I'm a season ticket holder for years.

I went to game 6 and game 7 of the ACLS. Was out until 5AM after game 7. Best game I've ever been to.

I didn't go to 1 WS game. Honestly. Sold the tickets. Didn't watch games 3-6. Was in New Orleans at a conference over the weekend the games were in Florida and I didn't even turn the TV on. The Red Sox series was so draining - so exhillarating - so full of ups and downs - that the WS really was anti-climactic?

Are you telling me you didn't feel at least in part the same in 2004? I call bullshit on that.

[jon abbey]

Are you telling me you didn't feel at least in part the same in 2004? I call bullshit on that.

You're kidding here, right? If not, let me help you out.

When NY won the 7 game ALCS heavyweight fight in 2003, they had already won four titles in the previous seven years, and been to the World Series six out of eight years. So your perspective is understandable.

When Boston won the 7 game ALCS heavyweight fight in 2004, they were still trying to snap the 86 year no-champions streak. So your question is pretty much insane.

[Kilgore A. Trout]

Are you telling me you didn't feel at least in part the same in 2004? I call bullshit on that.

Not even in the slightest. I did not hit the streets after game 4 because I had the Flu, but that's abut as muted as I was.

I'm sorry, I don't care of you got season tickets right next to Girardi, no real baseball fan doesn't care if their team loses the World Series. No amount of previous rings makes a difference.

[nycdoc999]

You're kidding here, right? If not, let me help you out.

When NY won the 7 game ALCS heavyweight fight in 2003, they had already won four titles in the previous seven years, and been to the World Series six out of eight years. So your perspective is understandable.

When Boston won the 7 game ALCS heavyweight fight in 2004, they were still trying to snap the 86 year no-champions streak. So your question is pretty much insane.

I'm not saying the WS was and ending the 86 year drought wasn't the most important event in many New Englander's sports lives. But beating the Yankees in the way they did was just as important to many - at least the Red Sox fans with whom I work every day.

[nycdoc999]

Not even in the slightest. I did not hit the streets after game 4 because I had the Flu, but that's abut as muted as I was.

I'm sorry, I don't care of you got season tickets right next to Girardi, no real baseball fan doesn't care if their team loses the World Series. No amount of previous rings makes a difference.

I'm glad you've declared yourself the arbiter of who's a "real" fan and who's not. Sounds eerily like the NY press....

[God's Cop]

So, does Hamels have it in him this time around?

[Kilgore A. Trout]

I'm glad you've declared yourself the arbiter of who's a "real" fan and who's not. Sounds eerily like the NY press....

Unlike the NY press, I'm not full of escort ads, never have the word 'HEADLESS' in huge letters on front, or am I in any way owned by Rupert Murdoch.
When the Pats lost to the Giants, I was heartbroken and disgusted. Didn't really matter to me that they had already won three this decade and were already the best team of the last ten years. I didn't kill anyone or even get in a fight, but even as I have gone on with my life and been as productive a member of society as I probably ever will be, it still bothers me to no end to think about it. And as much as I love football, I'm nowhere close to as avid a football fan as I am a baseball fan.
Am I safe in assuming that your season ticket seat is one of those empty ones we all have been seeing on the TV the last few weeks?

[nycdoc999]

When the Pats lost to the Giants, I was heartbroken and disgusted. Didn't really matter to me that they had already won three this decade and were already the best team of the last ten years. I didn't kill anyone or even get in a fight, but even as I have gone on with my life and been as productive a member of society as I probably ever will be, it still bothers me to no end to think about it.

I think you need psychiatric help. I'd be happy to recommend someone.

Am I safe in assuming that your season ticket seat is one of those empty ones we all have been seeing on the TV the last few weeks?

Try again.

Edited by nycdoc999, 30 October 2009 - 05:00 PM.

[aichtal]

Enough with the Kilgorian hijack. Hell, I'll even stipulate that the Yankees are the biggest chokers in the history of the world.

Here's hoping that Pettitte can keep up his solid post season run, especially in light of the fact that no one seems to be hitting. I was part of the crowd that wanted the Yankees to cut ties with him in the offseason last year. Keep proving me wrong old man!!!!

[brs3]

I'm not saying the WS was and ending the 86 year drought wasn't the most important event in many New Englander's sports lives. But beating the Yankees in the way they did was just as important to many - at least the Red Sox fans with whom I work every day.

It's easy to live in hindsight. If the Red Sox didn't win the WS in '04 after the epic collapse of the MFY, that WS loss would've been more crushing than the 2003 ALCS loss, by a significant margin. It's so goddamn hard to get to the World Series, let alone WIN it. Then again, it's easy to live in hindsight.

[nycdoc999]

It's easy to live in hindsight. If the Red Sox didn't win the WS in '04 after the epic collapse of the MFY, that WS loss would've been more crushing than the 2003 ALCS loss, by a significant margin. It's so goddamn hard to get to the World Series, let alone WIN it. Then again, it's easy to live in hindsight.

Well said, and I agree.

[rman726]

Only a matter of time before Howard and A-Rod break out. The ball has been flying out of Citizen Bank Park in the postseason and both teams will be turning to guys on short rest and maybe even their #4 starters. Advantage hitters. I expect some football scores in some of these games.

As great of a player as Howard is, he is truly awful vs left-handed pitchers... .207/.298/.653 vs LHP this year with 6 HRs. His next 5 pitchers might be LHP, LHP, RHP, LHP, LHP. Not sure if he will ever "break out." Maybe the short rest will help him, but his LHP numbers are bad.

[Zen]

Plenty of aces in there. Plenty of ace years. At least one a year since 2001. Often more than one. Some of them equal if not better than CC this year.

I'm going to edit out the bulk of your post, since they're stats that anyone can look up. And, yes, I am aware of how the Yankee pitchers performed in those years.

Sure. Gimme Clemens in '01, Johnson in '05, Wang the year before last, and Mussina in any year. Even the weaker ones.

You don't get to pick the years that the pitcher performs well. And you don't get to insert them as the second or third best pitcher in your rotation. You're telling me that you would've wanted the Red Sox to trade for or sign RJ to be their #1 guy? Or would have put Wang in that spot?

I liked the Mussina signing, and still do. But they paid for past performance to some degree, and didn't get as much value on the back end of that contract. That's fine with me. The first few years were worth it, and they could afford it. I'd say it's similar to the CC contract.

But the others you mentioned? Not even close.

ETA: Just did a little check. Since 2001, the only full-time starting pitchers to surpass CC's 133 ERA+ this year was Mussina (in 2001, 142), and Pettitte (in 2002, 135... injury shortened year). After that, no one was close except for Moose's 2008 season. The Yanks might have thought or hoped they were signing aces... but other than Mussina, they clearly weren't getting that kind of performance from them.

Let me put this to you another way: do you have a problem with your short term memory? Or are you so desperately trying not to face the fact that the Yankees have been baseball's biggest chokers since Luis fisted one to center that you're willing to pretend that New York has been fielding a AAA team until this season?

Nice straw man.

I'm beginning to think that - given your posting history and your "arguments" - you're not really worth discussing this with.

Edited by Zen, 30 October 2009 - 10:01 PM.

[5belongstoGeorge]

Never mind...

Edited by 5belongstoGeorge, 30 October 2009 - 10:55 PM.

[EvilEmpire]

SoSH Yanks Fans: Best of luck tomorrow night. I ain't rooting for your team but will be happy for you if they win.

Thanks Nip, appreciate the sentiment from you and some of the others. That is part of what makes this such a great community. At least for me. I may hate the fucking Sox, but I like a lot of their fans.

Back to the game. I'm happy Pettitte is going to be on the mound tomorrow. Big game pressure doesn't get to him and he seems to be able to keep his team in the game even when he doesn't have his best stuff. I also like that he can control the running game pretty well. I'm curious to see how Hamels performs. I see him as sort of like an AJ Burnett for the Phillies -- I think he'll be either very good or very bad. And maybe both in the same game.

The Phillies seem pretty confident. They have home field advantage now. Rollins pretty much told the media that they had Mariano figured out. So they have that going for them too. And you have to figure that Howard will start hitting at some point. Getting a split of the first two games in NY was exactly what they planned on, and they have good reason to be confident. Well, except for the figuring out Mariano part. Everyone has Mariano figured out, but knowing and doing are different things.

However, when all is said and done, I think the Yankees are going to take two of three in Philly and then close it out at home anyway. And when the Phillies look back and assess what went wrong, the key to the series will be that they wasted a superb outing from Pedro. They got so much more from him than they could have counted on, but they didn't get the win.

Can't wait for this game to start.

[RFG]

The winning pitcher of this game gets A-Rod's Centaur painting.

Neigh.

[Kilgore A. Trout]

Enough with the Kilgorian hijack.

Hey. I'm now an adverb. Cool.

[Kilgore A. Trout]

I'm beginning to think that - given your posting history and your "arguments" - you're not really worth discussing this with.

Aw, I'm not worthy. I'm so crushed.
I hope you don't expect me to care. You want to pretend that the Yankees aren't chokers, that they didn't choke in 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2006, and 2007, all series they were favored in, then that's your problem. The rest of us in the real world are still waiting to see if they will finally come through when it ultimately counts.

[Zen]

Aw, I'm not worthy. I'm so crushed.
I hope you don't expect me to care.

No. I don't.

You want to pretend that the Yankees aren't chokers, that they didn't choke in 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2006, and 2007, all series they were favored in, then that's your problem. The rest of us in the real world are still waiting to see if they will finally come through when it ultimately counts.

Again with the straw men.

The Phillies seem pretty confident. They have home field advantage now. Rollins pretty much told the media that they had Mariano figured out. So they have that going for them too.

Do you believe him, though?

Can't wait for this game to start.

Same.

I like to think that this is the best matchup the Yanks will have all series. Pettitte has been great for a few months now, and Hamels has... well... has not.

[luckysox]

Stop the madeness!

I fear for the lives of any Yanks fan in CBP tomorrow night...world series against the hated Yankees on Halloween in a city of angry, rabid fans. Holy shit someone could get killed. There might actually be D-cells flying from the upper deck.

I think the crowd will help turn the tide of tomorrow's game. If the Phillies can get Andy out by the 6th, whoever comes in from the Yanks BP is in for a world of hate filled expletives and personal attacks on their mothers and 2 year old kids. Seriously, it can get nuts there, and the place literally rocks, almost like Fenway, when it's loud. That stuff carries the Phils - they just feed off of it. I am really looking forward to this game.

[jon abbey]

Yes, for the love of god and for the sake of the rest of us, please stop.

Sunday might even be worse than tomorrow, Giants/Eagles game right before it at 4. It's going to be a crazy weekend.

[SonsOfCharlieZink]

Meh. Enough of the Sox vs. Yanks. There are only two teams left in baseball today. Focus folks!

And honestly, how can you rip the Yanks fans here? Its ballsy to be Yankee fans on a Sox site.

Edited by SonsOfCharlieZink, 31 October 2009 - 12:42 AM.

[Wakefield's Heart]

Meh. Enough of the Sox vs. Yanks. There are only two teams left in baseball today. Focus folks!

And honestly, how can you rip the Yanks fans here? Its ballsy to be Yankee fans on a Sox site.

How is it ballsy to be a Yankees fan on a Sox site that has MLB discussion threads for every team, has Sox fans actively and openly embracing the feelings and luck and "ballsiness" of said Yankee fans on a Sox site, and that is a whole hell of a lot more intelligent and analytical about the game of baseball than any Yankee fan message board in existence?

I think you can rip a lot of the Yankees fans here because, well, they're Yankees fans.

[SemperFidelisSox]

However, when all is said and done, I think the Yankees are going to take two of three in Philly and then close it out at home anyway. And when the Phillies look back and assess what went wrong, the key to the series will be that they wasted a superb outing from Pedro. They got so much more from him than they could have counted on, but they didn't get the win.

The Phillies needed Game 2 more than people think.

[joyofsox]

If the Red Sox didn't win the WS in '04 after the epic collapse of the MFY, that WS loss would've been more crushing than the 2003 ALCS loss, by a significant margin.

At the risk of prolonging this discussion, I have a hard time agreeing with this. Not winning the 2004 WS would have been quite bad, but I can't imagine anything being worse than the 2003 loss, let alone significantly worse. (Having the 2004 ALCS results flipped would be worse, I suppose.)

I guess it all comes down to the emotions of the individual fan.

***

I used to watch the entire WS without fail every year. Until 2003. Just couldn't do it then, though I did watch Game 6. Saw bits of 2005 and 2006, saw only the conclusion of the suspended game last year. I'm not a completist about it anymore. But post-2004 and having the MFY in a WS for the first time since 2003 has brought me back.

[cheesypoofs]

SoSH Yanks Fans: Best of luck tomorrow night. I ain't rooting for your team but will be happy for you if they win.

I can not lie. This made me a little misty.

The winning pitcher of this game gets A-Rod's Centaur painting.

Neigh.

The self-love is old news but I would've bet on The Little Mermaid as A*Rod's fantasy human/animal hybrid self.

Oh, yeah, I vote for a cessation of the rubber/glue stuff, too, if it's up for debate.

[jon abbey]

This is the second World Series game ever played on Halloween. Hopefully it will end with a similar result as the first:

http://www.baseball-...200110310.shtml

[Al Zarilla]

This is the second World Series game ever played on Halloween. Hopefully it will end with a similar result as the first:

http://www.baseball-...200110310.shtml

And the overall series the same.

[InsideTheParker]

There's a sweet article on J. Rollins in the Times by Doug Glanville: The Meaning Of Jimmy Rollins

This kind of rookie wasn’t always embraced in a warm and fuzzy way. Once, when Jimmy appeared to be going for the major league record for words spoken in a 10-minute period, Scott Rolen could not take it anymore. We were all in the same batting practice group, and throughout the round Jimmy would talk to every ball he hit. “Ooh, look at that.” “Yeah.” “Don’t come inside.” “Watch out.” “Uh-uh.” I couldn’t tell if he was working on his swing or on his commentary as a play-by-play announcer. He did both with panache.

Most of the time, I just laughed. He kept everything loose, adding something new to the repertoire of not only young players in general but especially young African-American players. Jackie Robinson had to stand silent for the door to open, but now players could be volatile and passionate (like a Carl Everett) or garrulous and showy (like Rollins). Neither was my style, but I had more room to “be myself” than the mentors to my generation of black players who didn’t feel so empowered.

But Rolen was tired of Rollins’s background buzz filling up his time to think. So he pulled Bobby Abreu and me aside to take a vote on kicking Jimmy out of our hitting group, which resulted in his exile. This was certainly a first in my experience, but if a key player like Scott couldn’t concentrate, then he needed to do what he had to do. Privately, he scolded Jimmy for his endless chatter, adding that no rookie should feel so comfortable. Even veterans with eight years in the game don’t talk that much, Scott explained, which was probably true.

For a couple of days, Jimmy wore a long face in the dugout. Instead of announcing what he had done on that last base hit, he was silent.

And just as we were getting used to Jimmy being mum, the word party began anew. Every noun, adjective, verb, adverb and preposition was invited, as were more than a few “words” that had escaped Webster’s attention.

Whenever Jimmy was the subject of a post-game interview, I enjoyed listening to him ramble. He had to represent his hometown area of Oakland, and “Oaktown” had its own language. He filled a few word voids with “you know what I am saying” or accented phrases with “sucker-free” words, which is something only people from Oakland understand. But as much as I smiled, I had to put on my Bull Durham-Crash Davis hat and talk to Jimmy about interviewing. Get in, get out, be clear, I advised. I guess I was “so ‘90s.”

Jimmy had too much personality to get in and get out. He could not wait to be seen and heard, so silence was not an option. Neither was sit back and wait, or stay below the radar. He was going to be in your face on the field and in front of the camera. Kevin Jordan and I, discussing our teammates Rolen and Rollins, agreed that while Scott preferred to do his job and then go home to his own space, Jimmy wanted to be “the man,” and couldn’t wait to be a star.

[Papelbot]

The winning pitcher of this game gets A-Rod's Centaur painting.

Neigh.

That is almost as cool as White Goodman's portrait of him taking the bull by the horns. (its a metaphor)

[Kilgore A. Trout]

The winning pitcher of this game gets A-Rod's Centaur painting.

Neigh.

I am so glad this came out before the game tonight. The Phillies fans just didn't have enough to get on Arod about.

[crow216]

SoSH Yanks Fans: Best of luck tomorrow night. I ain't rooting for your team but will be happy for you if they win.

thanks man. You have to admit, as much as you hate the yanks it wouldnt be bad for theo to get a little angry and spend some money or acquire some impact players, while cashman probably doesn't go as nuts.

[yeomen]

Aw, I'm not worthy. I'm so crushed.
I hope you don't expect me to care. You want to pretend that the Yankees aren't chokers, that they didn't choke in 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2006, and 2007, all series they were favored in, then that's your problem. The rest of us in the real world are still waiting to see if they will finally come through when it ultimately counts.

Here is my question, is not winning the WS = Choking. Did the Red Sox choke this year? (favored) in 2008 vs TB (favored) the whole 2006 season (definitely favored to make the playoffs is you are using the lines to determine who was the favorite), 2005 VS White SOX (favored) 2003?

If so arent they also chokers, and havent they choked more often than not this decade also?

I am simply trying to understand what makes a choke in your mind, if it is when the odd favorite does not win then I would say the Yanks have choked as you say, but that the Sox have also proven to be chokers the majority of the time. (Every year this decade except 03,04, and 07, as they have only been odd underdogs in series vs the Yanks.

I know they were this year, because it paid well...

On the ace agruement, agreed Yanks had aces, but if you go back and look at the playoff match ups, almost every year they lost, one could easily make the case that the opposing Ace was at a higher level when they met. Though, I am just going to admit that I write that out of memory and am not going to go back a look up the pitching match-ups.

Lastly, If the Yanks did in fact screw up Joba for the long term this year, Than all Sox fans should love Hamels, because ultimately he is one of the neames most often cited (along with Prior and Wood) for making the case that the 40+ innings workload increase has a negative long term affect on a pitcher.

[Kilgore A. Trout]

Here is my question, is not winning the WS = Choking. Did the Red Sox choke this year? (favored) in 2008 vs TB (favored) the whole 2006 season (definitely favored to make the playoffs is you are using the lines to determine who was the favorite), 2005 VS White SOX (favored) 2003?

If so arent they also chokers, and havent they choked more often than not this decade also?

I am simply trying to understand what makes a choke in your mind, if it is when the odd favorite does not win then I would say the Yanks have choked as you say, but that the Sox have also proven to be chokers the majority of the time. (Every year this decade except 03,04, and 07, as they have only been odd underdogs in series vs the Yanks.

I know they were this year, because it paid well...

This isn't about the Red Sox, and I have actually not talked about them here, other than to refer to them once or twice in passing. But real quickly- 2003 was a choke, and nobody could say different. This year might have been as well. But they were not favored against the Rays, who won the division and the season series, and the Red Sox were not favored against the White Sox, who had the best record in the AL by four games or so. And I really don't care what they said at ESPN back then about either series. If Vegas had them favored then you woulda been a fool not to take those odds. And 2006- that season they got hit with so many injuries a starting pitcher got cancer. I honestly wanted them to forfeit the whole last month before somebody got killed. So that's not a choke job either.
Choking is not about losing the World Series exclusively. Its about losing a series you're supposed to win. Or, more dramatically, losing in a specific situation that is overwhelmingly in your favor.
Just to use as a very clear example, the Sox were the underdogs against the Mets in 1986. In game six, we all know what happened. If the Red Sox had finished off the Mets, then the Mets would have choked for losing a series they were pretty respectably favored in. But instead what happened was the Red Sox got them one out away, one strike away a couple of times, and could not get it done. So, even though they were the underdogs in the series as a whole, because they didn't come through in a very specific situation that was overwhelmingly in their favor, the Red Sox choked.
Every team chokes from time to time. Over the course of the season in all those three game and four game sets, each team stumbles through a few and loses a series against a team they really have no business losing to. Or a closer blows it in the ninth, a hitter misses a meatball that would've tied it etc. In the playoffs too. Broxton and Holliday have this year. The Yankees are not the only team to choke in the playoffs in this decade. I can point to a few. The Mets choked against the Cardinals in '06, or the Cardinals choked against the Astros the year previous, for example. The Cubs in '04. It happens.
But I am not talking about a few times. The Yankees year in and year out since this decade began go into the post season with half an all star team and the best record in the AL if not all of baseball (with the exception of two years- 2005 & 2007), and promptly crap out in the first round unless they're facing the Twins. This year, actually, is only the second time the Yankees have beaten a team other than the Twins in the playoffs since 2002. And they were not the underdogs in a single one of those series, except maybe against the Indians in '07. That, to me, is a pattern, and it is yet to be seen if this year is going to be any different, as pretty much everyone had them as the favorite against the Phillies going into the World Series.
But enough. I've said my piece. This is the last time I am going to talk about this. Much to the exasperated relief of Jon Abbey, no doubt.

[RIrooter09]

This isn't about the Red Sox, and I have actually not talked about them here, other than to refer to them once or twice in passing. But real quickly- 2003 was a choke, and nobody could say different. This year might have been as well. But they were not favored against the Rays, who won the division and the season series, and the Red Sox were not favored against the White Sox, who had the best record in the AL by four games or so. And I really don't care what they said at ESPN back then about either series. If Vegas had them favored then you woulda been a fool not to take those odds. And 2006- that season they got hit with so many injuries a starting pitcher got cancer. I honestly wanted them to forfeit the whole last month before somebody got killed. So that's not a choke job either.
Choking is not about losing the World Series exclusively. Its about losing a series you're supposed to win. Or, more dramatically, losing in a specific situation that is overwhelmingly in your favor.
Just to use as a very clear example, the Sox were the underdogs against the Mets in 1986. In game six, we all know what happened. If the Red Sox had finished off the Mets, then the Mets would have choked for losing a series they were pretty respectably favored in. But instead what happened was the Red Sox got them one out away, one strike away a couple of times, and could not get it done. So, even though they were the underdogs in the series as a whole, because they didn't come through in a very specific situation that was overwhelmingly in their favor, the Red Sox choked.
Every team chokes from time to time. Over the course of the season in all those three game and four game sets, each team stumbles through a few and loses a series against a team they really have no business losing to. Or a closer blows it in the ninth, a hitter misses a meatball that would've tied it etc. In the playoffs too. Broxton and Holliday have this year. The Yankees are not the only team to choke in the playoffs in this decade. I can point to a few. The Mets choked against the Cardinals in '06, or the Cardinals choked against the Astros the year previous, for example. The Cubs in '04. It happens.
But I am not talking about a few times. The Yankees year in and year out since this decade began go into the post season with half an all star team and the best record in the AL if not all of baseball (with the exception of two years- 2005 & 2007), and promptly crap out in the first round unless they're facing the Twins. This year, actually, is only the second time the Yankees have beaten a team other than the Twins in the playoffs since 2002. And they were not the underdogs in a single one of those series, except maybe against the Indians in '07. That, to me, is a pattern, and it is yet to be seen if this year is going to be any different, as pretty much everyone had them as the favorite against the Phillies going into the World Series.
But enough. I've said my piece. This is the last time I am going to talk about this. Much to the exasperated relief of Jon Abbey, no doubt.

Seriously stop. The Yankees have been losing the past 9 years because they haven't had the starting pitching or bullpen to go deep into the playoffs. That's not choking, that's simply not having the best team. Now they have it, and they're in the World Series. I don't know what you've been trying to accomplish with this line of discussion, but your bias as a Sox fan is crystal clear. To be honest, it makes the rest of us look bad and you need to stop getting into these petty arguments with Yankee fans. Most of the time they're making coherent points while you're just banging your head against the wall.

[brs3]

It's Halloween, Yankees!

1, 2
Phillies coming for you
3, 4
Better lock your 'pen door
5, 6
Pitchin' Andy Pettitte
7, 8
Better hope he goes late
9, 10
Never win again!

[Papelbot]

Speaking of choking, did you know A-Rod is into auto- erotic asphyxiation, Micheal Hutchens / David Carradine style? Its true, and the real reason his lips are purple.

[Mystic Merlin]

thanks man. You have to admit, as much as you hate the yanks it wouldnt be bad for theo to get a little angry and spend some money or acquire some impact players, while cashman probably doesn't go as nuts.

I don't know. Personally, I would find it pretty 'bad' if Theo made decisions based on the Yankees winning the World Series. I would prefer whatever strategy he employs be totally independent of the World Series outcome.

[Mystic Merlin]

Game 7 is scheduled for Nov. 5th? Jesus fuck, why don't they just play thru Thanksgiving?

[rembrat]

[Spacemans Bong]

Game 7 is scheduled for Nov. 5th? Jesus fuck, why don't they just play thru Thanksgiving?

You just heard about this now?

[Mystic Merlin]

You just heard about this now?

Evidently.

Am I supposed to flog myself now or something?

Edited by Mystic Merlin, 31 October 2009 - 02:48 PM.

[Andrew]

YOUR TEAM SUCKS AND THEY ARE CHOKERS!

NO, YOUR TEAM SUCKS AND THEY ARE CHOKERS!

[Rough Carrigan]

MLB Network is showing Game 3 of the 1969 World series right now. (I love when they show old games!)In another inning or two, Nolan Ryan's going to come into the game in relief for the Mets. I hope they have a behind the plate shot of young, pristine armed Ryan throwing unprecedented smoke to the Orioles.