1991 replies to this topic

[JAF1970]

Stealth ban. NOICE Sprowl.

Zinda! His face black, his eyes red!

Ugh. Too much Star Trek on the brain.

[Kull]

Done.

Not to jump on the anti-lurker bandwagon (said the lurker), but this equation should rule in game threads:

(Idiotic Post) + (Zero post count) = Insta-ban

[MoGator71]

Shit, I thought Drew had two hits, not one.

In any case, he really shit the bed in the RBI department tonite.

Drew doesn't care about RBI's. Or R's BI either.

[DieHardSoxFan1]

In any case, he really shit the bed in the RBI department tonite.

Nice touch.

For me, the most frustrating part of this game occurred when Youkilis, representing the tying run, left the bat on his shoulder on a 3-1 fastball right down Broadway.

[MoGator71]

Nice touch.

For me, the most frustrating part of this game occurred when Youkilis, representing the tying run, left the bat on his shoulder on a 3-1 fastball right down Broadway.

Looking for the walk with a worse hitter on deck...is his locker next to Drew's?

[Norm Siebern]

Nice touch.

For me, the most frustrating part of this game occurred when Youkilis, representing the tying run, left the bat on his shoulder on a 3-1 fastball right down Broadway.

Bingo. We have bingo.

[Bellhorn]

First, you assume that the ump is bad because he is black.

No, we assume he is bad because he blew two very obvious calls in one game, continuing a pattern of sub-standard competence that has been noted by many baseball people (c.f. Schilling's comments, and the anonymous surveys cited earlier in this thread.)

Second, you assume that he was hired because of affirmative action.

Which, given the factors presented above, makes it a reasonable notion - if not sufficient for an "assumption", at least to be raised as a question, which is how MaxPower phrased it in his original post. Further, while the post did say "hire", I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that this was a shorthand for "selection for post-season assignment", which is a markedly different question. No one here pretends to know the state of the umpiring pool at the time of his hire in any detail, but we can make a pretty good case that better umpires could have been found to work a post-season series.

Third, you assume that affirmative action lets unqualified people into jobs they can't handle; in my experience, to even get to the point of being considered under an affirmative action you have to work twice as hard as most people, and then you have to put up with lots of bitter white people who blame their problems--bad marriage, bad job, brutal economy, sox losing--on people of color whom they always assume are affirmative action hires.

None of which is remotely relevant to the question of how post-season umpiring assignments are determined from among the pool of MLB umpires. Again, given that a) CB has an established track-record of perceived sub-standard umpiring, further reinforced by his display tonight, and b) some flavor of affirmative action is accepted by many people (including you, apparently) as being an appropriate factor in workplace decision-making, it is entirely reasonable to raise the question - which is all that Max Power did - of whether or not such a process was at work in this case.

I wish I could agree with you, but...


...strikes me as an implication that Bucknor would not have been hired had he not been black.

Again, why is this impossible? And if it's possible, why is it so firmly verboten to speak of it? Other than it's being off-topic, as are many game thread tangents.

It brings an extraneous issue into the discussion of Bucknor's bad umpiring, which was quite bad enough on its own.

But surely it is a more interesting issue. Umpires have bad days from time to time - there's usually nothing productive to say about it. When MLB gives an habitually bad umpire a post-season game and he turns in an execrable performance, isn't it worth at least discussing what the reason for this may have been? As far as I can see, he merely put forward a very realistic candidate for a partial factor in the decision - most of the objection to this comment seems to be of the "you're saying he's bad because he's black!!11" variety - an epic logic fail if there ever was one.

Edited by Bellhorn, 09 October 2009 - 12:33 AM.

[O Captain! My Captain!]

Nice touch.

For me, the most frustrating part of this game occurred when Youkilis, representing the tying run, left the bat on his shoulder on a 3-1 fastball right down Broadway.

After seeing him rightly look at ball 4 earlier in the at bat makes it worse. That was probably the most meaningful missed call this game. Not that it probably would have mattered, but at the time...

[O Captain! My Captain!]

Shit, I thought Drew had two hits, not one.

In any case, he really shit the bed in the RBI department tonite.

That's a clutch post.

[Sprowl]

Not to jump on the anti-lurker bandwagon (said the lurker), but this equation should rule in game threads:

(Idiotic Post) + (Zero post count) = Insta-ban

It's not quite that easy -- plenty of lurkers are game-threaders first, and game-thread posts don't count in post totals, so they might appear to be noobies when they're really long-timers.

Having open game threads is good karma, so that particular bandwagon isn't going anywhere fast.

[BucketOBalls]

It injects the issue of his race into a discussion that did not need it. It implies that anybody whose job came through a race-conscious process is held to a lower standard and can get away with poor performance. It invites the kind of responses that you have received. You could have made your criticism of Bucknor without raising the issue of race and affirmative action at all.

Yeah, that was bad.

MLB rightfully takes a "color blind" policy in this regard. They seem to have taken it a bit literally in his case though.

I thought the NBA was the sport with the scab umpires...

[NomarRS05]

It's not quite that easy -- plenty of lurkers are game-threaders first, and game-thread posts don't count in post totals, so they might appear to be noobies when they're really long-timers.

Having open game threads is good karma, so that particular bandwagon isn't going anywhere fast.

Good karma maybe, but not sure it helped the quality of the game thread tonight. The sheer volume made it a very tough read IMO.

[barbed wire Bob]

But surely it is a more interesting issue. Umpires have bad days from time to time - there's usually nothing productive to say about it. When MLB gives an habitually bad umpire a post-season game and he turns in an execrable performance, isn't it worth at least discussing what the reason for this may have been? As far as I can see, he merely put forward a very realistic candidate for a partial factor in the decision - most of the objection to this comment seems to be of the "you're saying he's bad because he's black!!11" variety - an epic logic fail if there ever was one.

There is a simpler explanation as to why CB is working the post-season: He has seniority in the union.

Edited by barbed wire Bob, 09 October 2009 - 12:46 AM.

[TFisNEXT]

I've been here for like 5 years now (3.5 as an actual member)...and I'm preparing to go racist and disrespectful tomorrow night and get banned if need be for the greater good.

Beckett better have an even more ambitious attitude tomorrow night. This fucking guy lives for this shit. I want game 5 2007 ALCS back-to-our-walls Josh F. Beckett tomorrow night.

And for the Red Sox hitters to take the bats out of their asses.

[jon abbey]

Having open game threads is good karma, so that particular bandwagon isn't going anywhere fast.

Wasn't Boston still in first in the East when they were opened this year? Weren't they closed in 2004 and 2007 (rhetorical question)?

[Sprowl]

Again, why is this impossible? And if it's possible, why is it so firmly verboten to speak of it? Other than it's being off-topic, as are many game thread tangents.

It's hardly verboten -- here we are speaking of it, and nobody's getting banned or deleted as a consequence. Nevertheless, raising a hot-button issue in a one-liner without any evidence to back it up invites other readers to conclude that the poster's leap from incompetence to race is unjustified, and to call him on it. It may be defensible, but it's also an invitation to sweeping categorizations that devolve very quickly into political baiting. Generally, we keep politics out of the game thread precisely so that they don't get sidetracked (like this)...

... but the Sox lost the playoff opener, Lackey shut them down, we're disappointed and disgruntled, so no point in stifling the discussion now.

[SemperFidelisSox]

AmalieBenjamin: Victor will catch Beckett tomorrow.

[Adirondack jack]

Praise Jesus.

[MoGator71]

Praise Jesus.

When I read that I literally said to myself "Praise Jesus". To the word.

I think it's a good sign.

[ElijahPumpsieGreen]

No, we assume he is bad because he blew two very obvious calls in one game, continuing a pattern of sub-standard competence that has been noted by many baseball people (c.f. Schilling's comments, and the anonymous surveys cited earlier in this thread.)

Which, given the factors presented above, makes it a reasonable notion - if not sufficient for an "assumption", at least to be raised as a question, which is how MaxPower phrased it in his original post. Further, while the post did say "hire", I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that this was a shorthand for "selection for post-season assignment", which is a markedly different question. No one here pretends to know the state of the umpiring pool at the time of his hire in any detail, but we can make a pretty good case that better umpires could have been found to work a post-season series.
None of which is remotely relevant to the question of how post-season umpiring assignments are determined from among the pool of MLB umpires. Again, given that a) CB has an established track-record of perceived sub-standard umpiring, further reinforced by his display tonight, and b) some flavor of affirmative action is accepted by many people (including you, apparently) as being an appropriate factor in workplace decision-making, it is entirely reasonable to raise the question - which is all that Max Power did - of whether or not such a process was at work in this case.


Again, why is this impossible? And if it's possible, why is it so firmly verboten to speak of it? Other than it's being off-topic, as are many game thread tangents.

But surely it is a more interesting issue. Umpires have bad days from time to time - there's usually nothing productive to say about it. When MLB gives an habitually bad umpire a post-season game and he turns in an execrable performance, isn't it worth at least discussing what the reason for this may have been? As far as I can see, he merely put forward a very realistic candidate for a partial factor in the decision - most of the objection to this comment seems to be of the "you're saying he's bad because he's black!!11" variety - an epic logic fail if there ever was one.

no, bellhorn.

you (we all) know cb is a bad ump because he made bad calls. you then assume that badness is related to him being black. and you then claim that that relationship between his badness and his blackness is maintained by affirmative action. this claim is "a very realistic candidate for a partial factor in the decision" only because you have claimed that it is, not because it is true or correct. no one is saying you are unreasonable. just that you are wrong factually and that you are using faulty logic.

and don't cry "verboten." no one is forbidding anything. actually, mods are letting you post and people are responding to your posts by disagreeing.

do the right thing, think more clearly: blame lugo. that will be a more realistic candidate for a partial factor in helping the sox win.

[StuckOnYouk]

There is a simpler explanation as to why CB is working the post-season: He has seniority in the union.

Actually seniority has nothing to do with it. Here are the facts.

Top umpires seniority

20+ years (18 umps)
John Hirschbeck 25.5
Dale Scott 23
Tim Tschida 23
Bob Davidson 20
Tim Welke 25
Gary Darling 22
Bill Hohn 20
Joe West 31
Rick Reed 27
Dana DeMuth 25
Ed Montague 33
Jerry Layne 20
Gerry Davis 25
Jerry Crawford 32
Tim McClelland 26.5
Derryl Cousins 30
Randy Marsh 27
Mike Reilly 32

15-19 years (9 umps)
Wally Bell 16
Angel Hernandez 16
Larry Vanover 16
Ed Rapuano 18.5
Jeff Kellogg 16.5
Brian Gorman 17
Tom Hallion 16
Mike Winters 19
Chuck Merriwether 17

CB Bucknor has 10 years of service. He is tied for 35th, along with 13 other umpires with 10 years of experience. So they could have slotted him 46th if they valued his seniority and then rated him worst among those 13 umps with 10 years of experience.

Instead he's 1st base ump in game 1 and home plate ump in game 2 in what was the best divisional series of the four.

Edited by StuckOnYouk, 09 October 2009 - 01:40 AM.

[barbed wire Bob]

Actually seniority has nothing to do with it. Here are the facts.

I stand corrected. By the way, where did you find that info?

[StuckOnYouk]

no, bellhorn.

you (we all) know cb is a bad ump because he made bad calls. you then assume that badness is related to him being black. and you then claim that that relationship between his badness and his blackness is maintained by affirmative action. this claim is "a very realistic candidate for a partial factor in the decision" only because you have claimed that it is, not because it is true or correct. no one is saying you are unreasonable. just that you are wrong factually and that you are using faulty logic.

and don't cry "verboten." no one is forbidding anything. actually, mods are letting you post and people are responding to your posts by disagreeing.

do the right thing, think more clearly: blame lugo. that will be a more realistic candidate for a partial factor in helping the sox win.

You keep repeating that there are some on this board who are saying he's bad--or at least badness is related to him--because he's black. Where are you getting this from?

[StuckOnYouk]

I stand corrected. By the way, where did you find that info?

MLB.com

[Adirondack jack]

I think it's a good sign.

Josh F. Beckett will deliver.
___________________

Start a god damned poll on affirmative action, jesus fuck, there's a baseball game to be won.

[Sprowl]

Good karma maybe, but not sure it helped the quality of the game thread tonight. The sheer volume made it a very tough read IMO.

Yeah, the volume was hard to keep up with. On the other hand, compare tonight's thread (1,965 posts, 95,163 views) with the ALCS game 1 in 2008 (also Lester v. Lackey): 2,826 posts, 171,384 views. Having some of the posters in the chat room actually kept the volume down.

Wasn't Boston still in first in the East when they were opened this year? Weren't they closed in 2004 and 2007 (rhetorical question)?

Hmmm. Dunno about 2004; yes, two separate threads in 2007 -- and the sandbox threads were way better.

You've got a point about this year's post-merger record -- but you're a Yankee fan, right? It's gotta be a plot.

[barbed wire Bob]

MLB.com

Thanks.

[ElijahPumpsieGreen]

You keep repeating that there are some on this board who are saying he's bad--or at least badness is related to him--because he's black. Where are you getting this from?

from lugo! how many times do i have to say it!? oh, and: go sox.

[TFisNEXT]

Actually seniority has nothing to do with it. Here are the facts.

Top umpires seniority

20+ years (15 umps)
John Hirschbeck 25.5
Dale Scott 23
Tim Tschida 23
Bob Davidson 20
Tim Welke 25
Gary Darling 22
Bill Hohn 20
Joe West 31
Rick Reed 27
Dan DeMuth 25
Ed Montague 33
Jerry Layne 20
Gerry Davis 25
Randy Marsh 27
Mike Reilly 32

15-19 years (9 umps)
Wally Bell 16
Angel Hernandez 16
Larry Vanover 16
Ed Rapuano 18.5
Jeff Kellogg 16.5
Brian Gorman 17
Tom Hallion 16
Mike Winters 19
Chuck Merriwether 17

CB Bucknor has 10 years of service. He is tied for 30th, along with 13 other umpires with 10 years of experience. So they could have slotted him 43rd if they valued his seniority and then rated him worst among those 13 umps with 10 years of experience.

Instead he's 1st base ump in game 1 and home plate ump in game 2 in what was the best divisional series of the four.

Doesnt Tim McClelland still work? He has been around since 1983.

[paulftodd]

Interesting article that touches on the touchy issue at hand. You stand a better chance of winning the lottery or a supreme court justice than becoming a MLB umpire, white or black.

http://articles.lati...ts/sp-umpires12

Bucknor is a bad ump, I don't care what his color is, but fortunately his lousy calls did not impact the games outcome.

[desertrat75]

Done.

I haven't read through all the posts.. but based on the page 11, foulkehampshire needs to go too; re: post #219. This is as fucking disgusting as it gets. Really, is this what SOSH is about? Jokes about Lester are ban-worthy, but game threads revolved(!) around Munson's horrible fate and infantile drawings depicting Nick Adenhart's death? Talk about duplicitous. Fuck you....and fuck SOSH for allowing this. Desertrat75 is out.

[JAF1970]

Interesting article that touches on the touchy issue at hand. You stand a better chance of winning the lottery or a supreme court justice than becoming a MLB umpire, white or black.

http://articles.lati...ts/sp-umpires12

Bucknor is a bad ump, I don't care what his color is, but fortunately his lousy calls did not impact the games outcome.

I just have an issue there is zero accountability for dreadful calls. Not bad calls, mind you, but astounding bad calls.

Before, an ump told Jeter that because the ball beat him to the bag, he's automatically out, even after he did the swim move and the ump acknowledged that the ball did not touch him. This same ump thought you didn't need to have the ball in the glove to tag someone out. What are these umps being taught?!

[StuckOnYouk]

Doesnt Tim McClelland still work? He has been around since 1983.

You're right, I missed 3 umps with 20+ years seniority. Just fixed the list.

So now there are 34 umps with more years than CB and 10 other umps with as many years as him, meaning he could be seen as anywhere from 35th-44th on the seniority list if they sprinkle in some talent evaluation for "tied" years of service.

Horrendous, who the hell is accountable for this list of umps?

[BucketOBalls]

http://articles.lati...ts/sp-umpires12

Nice read:

Summary: MLB umpires have incredibly low turnover(like 1 per year). This has hampered diversity efforts.

Secondary conclusion(not from the article): Performance has absolutely no impact on them whatsoever. A turnover of 1 a year can pretty much only come from natural causes.
Honestly, have some sort of performance criteria would actually help with the diversity aspect also.

[tmc78]

It's 2009. Discussion centered on race are not verboten. They're simply sad.

Subtle or not, the inkling of the inference to affirmative action as hot button topic is a pitiable nod to an era when one's own lack of traction in matters of the world could be attributed to the easy path of another. oh lucky them. if only we all had the good fortune of being so lucky as to have been stolen, bought, sold, disenfranchised and jim crow'd.

cb is a sad excuse for an umpire based upon consistently shit calls and a smug look despite his super-obvious failings. nothing else. he invites controversy and welcomes it at the expense of the game. similarly, certain postings do so at the expense of an intelligent and exciting discussion of baseball.

this shit make baby jesus cry and tiny kittens die. nice going. keep it up and we will be sans savior and sans adorable felines.

[JakeRae]

Interesting article that touches on the touchy issue at hand. You stand a better chance of winning the lottery or a supreme court justice than becoming a MLB umpire, white or black.

http://articles.lati...ts/sp-umpires12

Bucknor is a bad ump, I don't care what his color is, but fortunately his lousy calls did not impact the games outcome.

The fact that it is so hard to become a major league umpire just makes it harder to comprehend why bad umps are not discarded and are instead given playoff assignments. I realize that major league umpiring is hard to do and that most minor league umpires are worse. But, there has to be something that can be done.

Hearing about the pay situation in the minors, maybe MLB could seek to identify umpire "prospects" who display great potential and supplement their minor league based income to keep them on track to make the majors. The sort of investment this would take would be trivial within the context of MLB revenue but could substantially improve the game.

If the talent doesn't exist to replace bad umpires, develop it, then get rid of the bad umpires. If it already exists, then what are we waiting for? Bad calls happen. Bad umpires do not need to happen.

[jon abbey]

You've got a point about this year's post-merger record -- but you're a Yankee fan, right? It's gotta be a plot.

Why do you think I didn't say anything sooner?

[paulftodd]

The fact that it is so hard to become a major league umpire just makes it harder to comprehend why bad umps are not discarded and are instead given playoff assignments. I realize that major league umpiring is hard to do and that most minor league umpires are worse. But, there has to be something that can be done.

Hearing about the pay situation in the minors, maybe MLB could seek to identify umpire "prospects" who display great potential and supplement their minor league based income to keep them on track to make the majors. The sort of investment this would take would be trivial within the context of MLB revenue but could substantially improve the game.

If the talent doesn't exist to replace bad umpires, develop it, then get rid of the bad umpires. If it already exists, then what are we waiting for? Bad calls happen. Bad umpires do not need to happen.

One word. Unions. Once an umpire is in, it's hard as hell to get them out under the rules both parties agreed to. Someone like Bucknor makes you wonder how they got in in the first place though.

I haven't read through all the posts.. but based on the page 11, foulkehampshire needs to go too; re: post #219. This is as fucking disgusting as it gets. Really, is this what SOSH is about? Jokes about Lester are ban-worthy, but game threads revolved(!) around Munson's horrible fate and infantile drawings depicting Nick Adenhart's death? Talk about duplicitous. Fuck you....and fuck SOSH for allowing this. Desertrat75 is out.

Look at the bright side, you can call me a dick and if I defend myself in kind I will get warned for lurker baiting. I agree with you on some of it though, folks even wishing death on Tek and Green in other GT's, but hey, it's the game thread. The Lester wish was a bit much. Now if he sucked, I guess anything goes. I guess thats the rule, you can say these things only about guys who are not Red Sox, or Red Sox players who are perceived to suck by the majority

Edited by paulftodd, 09 October 2009 - 02:41 AM.

[Kull]

One word. Unions. Once an umpire is in, it's hard as hell to get them out under the rules both parties agreed to. Someone like Bucknor makes you wonder how they got in in the first place though.

Didn't have to be this way. MLB broke the union in '99 and could have redefined the rules. Missed opportunity.

[ivanvamp]

Lester's last two postseason starts:

13.0 ip, 10 h, 6 r, 6 er, 4 bb, 13 k, 4.15 era, 1.08 whip, 9.0 k/9

Sox' offense in Lester's last two postseason starts:

60 ab, 1 r, 7 h, 0 2b, 0 3b, 1 hr, 1 rbi, 6 bb, 17 k, .117/.194/.167/.361

Not that he's been dominant, but plenty of pitchers have gotten postseason wins with lines far worse than Lester's. But that offense....holy smokes. That's basically as bad as it gets.

[CharlesFenway]

Beckett threw at Abreu b/c Abreu backed out of the batter's box and got timeout when Beckett was half way into his windup. It had nothing at all to do with Adenhart being killed by a drunk. Do you think they will really try extra hard, really really extra hard b/c that mean poopy head Beckett was "dissing" Adenhart on his special nght?

You would not believe the number of Angels fans who kept bringing that up last nite .... "Beckett drilled Abreu right after Nick died!" over and over and over again. Absurd.

[EastCoasterOutWest]

dumping beer on the uniform of a man who was killed by a drunk

Yeah. I just don't get that part either.