711 replies to this topic

[Tizzolator]

Best one yet... honestly the other two aren't even close at this point, because the USFL piece was just so well done.

[Senorec]

Definitely the best of the 3 so far and its not even close in my opinion. While I thought that using the director as the first person story teller may have gotten a little campy, I thought it worked well because the theme of the documentary was that the USFL was a labor of love that made so many people excited to be a part of it. And since I was born around the same time the USFL was, I found it extremely informative and I wish the NFL would learn from the USFL and stop being the No Fun League.

[BGrif21125]

As others have said, this is easily the best of the 3 so far. It was obvious that the director was passionate about the subject.

Good archival footage, tons of info, lots of interviews with key figures, plenty of funny moments. I went in knowing next-to-nothing about the USFL, and 60 minutes later I felt like I knew a lot.

[Manny ActaFool]

The schedule for the near-future... many repeats for those that haven't seen particular episodes.

http://30for30.espn.com/schedule.html

Really enjoyed the USFL piece. Thought the part where Donald Trump promised to cut down Charlie Steiner if he didn't say something out of respect of the Donald was said in a way that makes me hate the self-promoting gasbag even more (Donald, not Charlie). I think they could have done a way bigger chop job on Trump, but it gave more time for the enjoyable players' perspectives and I gained a little respect for a guy I had never even heard of, John Bassett. The piece portrays him as standing up to Trump and it sounds like he had the respect of many before his death.

If anyone knows when the ALCS piece comes up, please do share. I am either blind or it's not on that schedule yet.

[carygug]

I agree with everyone, this was by far the best of the 3 and I think they knocked it out the park. I have always had a soft spot for the USFL and was giddy for most of the hour.

I grew up in New Orleans and remember when we got the New Orleans Breakers. I was 7 at the time and just getting into sports and it was kind of a big deal in the city at the time. The first 20 years of the Saints existence was basically a disaster, so the city threw its support behind the Breakers. I just looked up the attendance figures and they drew 30K a game! My first pro game was actually a Breakers game and not a Saints game. I remember Buford Jordan being the man - dude averaged 6 yards a carry. (And just saw that Herschel Walker carried the ball 438 times in '85 - Holy Curse of 370 Batman!)
My little 5 year old nephew inherited my New Orleans Breakers pennant for his room.

When Tom Benson bought the Saints in '86, he basically hired the Philly Stars team - the one that won 2 USFL championships, including coach Jim Mora. Guys like Bobby Herbert and Sam Mills made a big impact on the team and the Saints had a decent run in the late 80's that under those Mora teams.

Hopefully Mark Cuban watched this and decides to just move the UFL to the spring.

[BGrif21125]

I thought last night's was OK, but paled in comparison to the USFL one.

It's really tough at this point to do anything about Ali that hasn't already been covered a bunch of times before.

[SeanBerry]

I didn't really like it.

It seemed like they had all this footage from 1980 and they *had* to use it. I would have rather seen more fight footage and more interviews with the experts. I could do without seeing Ali do 5 minutes of card tricks. It was jarring to hear his speech become more mumbling and then other times be fine.

The other thing that kind of stuck in my craw was that I knew he fought Berbick a year later. If this fight was so bad (and I think it was), then wasn't the Berbick fight worse (and I think that was the real crime). But they totally ignored the Berbick fight until the very end. It's almost like they did that because they had this footage of him training and they wanted to play it up.

There was one scene I liked quite a bit. Ali is in the cr and someone (the filmmaker?) says "Hey Ali, I just spoke to Holmes and he was talking about you."

"Oh yeah?" Ali says "What's he saying about me"

"He says he like you"

Ali stops for like 10 seconds and Ali the "showman" goes away for just a glimmer and and he seems to answer really honestly "I like him too."

B-. Easily the weekest entry so far.

1.USFL
2.Gretzky
3.Baltimore Colts
4.Ali/Holmes

[BGrif21125]

The other thing that kind of stuck in my craw was that I knew he fought Berbick a year later. If this fight was so bad (and I think it was), then wasn't the Berbick fight worse (and I think that was the real crime). But they totally ignored the Berbick fight until the very end. It's almost like they did that because they had this footage of him training and they wanted to play it up.

No, the Berbick fight wasn't worse because Berbick wasn't very good and therefore couldn't really hurt Ali. It was a reasonably competitive fight, in fact.

Whereas Holmes is an all-time great champ and beat the shit out of Ali.

It seemed like they had all this footage from 1980 and they *had* to use it.

Ya, I agree. I feel like the director went to ESPN and said "Hey, we've got Ali footage that no one has ever seen" and ESPN automatically just said "OK!".

Edited by BGrif21125, 28 October 2009 - 09:01 AM.

[SeanBerry]

No, the Berbick fight wasn't worse because Berbick wasn't very good and therefore couldn't really hurt Ali. It was a reasonably competitive fight, in fact.

Whereas Holmes is an all-time great champ and beat the shit out of Ali.

Berbick was actually a pretty good fighter. It's not like he was a chump like a Peter McNeely.

Everything I ever read said how the Ali/Berbick was really criminal (like they tried to say the Ali/Holmes fight was in the beginning) and that Ali was showing very obvious signs of something that was very wrong.

[BGrif21125]

Berbick was actually a pretty good fighter. It's not like he was a chump like a Peter McNeely.

You're right, he wasn't a chump at all, but the gap between Holmes and Berbick isn't all that different from the gap between Berbick and McNeeley. Holmes is a top 5 all-time heavyweight and was in his prime, which is why the Ali-Holmes fight was a one-sided massacre.

Everything I ever read said how the Ali/Berbick was really criminal (like they tried to say the Ali/Holmes fight was in the beginning) and that Ali was showing very obvious signs of something that was very wrong.

It was criminal, both fights were criminal. There's no way he should have been in the ring either time. But one fight was somewhat competitive (although still pathetic) and the other wasn't competitive at all. Have you watched both fights?

Edited by BGrif21125, 28 October 2009 - 09:13 AM.

[SeanBerry]

You're right, he wasn't a chump at all, but the gap between Holmes and Berbick is about the same as the gap between Berbick and McNeeley. Holmes is a top 5 all-time heavyweight and was in his prime, which is why the Ali-Holmes fight was a one-sided massacre.

It was criminal, both fights were criminal. There's no way he should have been in the ring either time. But one fight was somewhat competitive (although still pathetic) and the other wasn't competitive at all. Have you watched both fights?

Only clips of each. The Berbick fight hasn't been shown all that much and I was 4 when it happened. I've probably about 2-5 minutes of fighting in each with more in the Ali/Holmes fight.

Obviously Holmes in his prime is a HUGE factor but it wasn't so much that as it was that Ali's condition had worsened so much (I can't imagine the Holmes fight helped that any).

[Rick Burlesons Yam Bag]

It was criminal, both fights were criminal. There's no way he should have been in the ring either time. But one fight was somewhat competitive (although still pathetic) and the other wasn't competitive at all. Have you watched both fights?

I don't disagree with your point, but I think - based on what I read here and what I am hearing from others - that the documentary didn't fully capture the general public's feeling on the fight.

At the time people thought Holmes was a fraud champ (and indeed, many casual fans continue to do so to this day), he was overwhelmingly underappreciated. Many people - reasonable people - thought that Ali was going to go in and re-enact the rumble in the jungle. He would outsmart Holmes and come out on top. This fight and the Cooney fight were my first two heavyweight fights that I followed real closely as a kid and it wasn't like expert opinion came out overwhelmingly that Holmes would even win!

I think that was what made the fight so scarring for so many of us. We thought there was a decent chance he would win. He was the greatest and he had overcome "bigger and badder" guys before. In real time it was very painful to watch. I still remember it.

Clearly given the medical information that Ali's camp had it was a crime that he was in the ring.

[Jody Reeds Well]

I guess I am in the minority here, but I really enjoyed this one and put it second behind the USFL documentary. I wasn't around in 1980 and seeing Ali obviously on the tail end of his fighting career was pretty interesting. The video spoke for itself, especially when Ali couldn't hit the punching bag in rhythm.

While the Ali stuff was good, to me the focus of this documentary was really on Larry Holmes and not on Ali. I knew that Holmes was a great fighter, but I didn't really know much more about him. Between some of the old footage and new interviews, I definitely got a good idea of what LH is about. It really is sort of sad to know that his career isn't celebrated as much as Ali's, Frazier, or Foreman's.

Loved the bookends of having Holmes singing his song in 1980 and still singing his song 30 years later.

[Huntington Avenue Grounds]

I liked this one a lot and put it behind the USFL and slightly ahead of the Colts band. They could have used some better editing, but I think they did what they intended to, which is to bring us to 1980 in a way that most of us, even those around that remember it, have not seen before. The wife sitting next to me at one point just said "that poor guy" when Ali was in the midst of one of his episodes with speech and coordination. As a viewer I was silently hoping the fight would be called off based on his condition, so it got me involved and I cared, which is what compelling TV is about.

After four films I retract my early fears on what this series will be about, ESPN seems to be giving up final editing and creative control of the films to allow the stories (and the directors) speak for themselves. There will be hits and misses, but overall I'm looking forward to any of the upcoming episodes.

[E5 Yaz]

At the time people thought Holmes was a fraud champ (and indeed, many casual fans continue to do so to this day), he was overwhelmingly underappreciated. Many people - reasonable people - thought that Ali was going to go in and re-enact the rumble in the jungle. He would outsmart Holmes and come out on top.

I think that was what made the fight so scarring for so many of us. We thought there was a decent chance he would win. He was the greatest and he had overcome "bigger and badder" guys before. In real time it was very painful to watch. I still remember it.

Clearly given the medical information that Ali's camp had it was a crime that he was in the ring.

This nails it completely. There was a real sense of disdain toward Holmes, for no other reason than he wasn't a "mythic" figure. Ali, Frazier and Foreman all had that sort of presence that went beyond the ring. Holmes never could attain that status.

I thought it was a good job on the fight, sad to watch considering where Ali is now and what going into the ring then might have done to contribute to it.

A small moment that was great was Holmes "car phone." Hadn't seen one of those in years

[NoXInNixon]

I'm really looking forward to the Len Bias one, even more than the 2004 ALCS one.

[BGrif21125]

Ali, Frazier and Foreman all had that sort of presence that went beyond the ring. Holmes never could attain that status.

He had a couple things working against him:
1. Holmes was a pure boxer, and America tends to fall in love with heavyweights who are devestating punchers (see: Mike Tyson). Ali's the one guy who could get away with not being a huge puncher, because he had such a unique/outsized personality.
2. Ali, Frazier and Foreman were all able to prove themselves against each other in a golden era. Holmes made it to the top several years later when Foreman was already a preacher, and Ali and Frazier were both shot fighters in semi-retirement. Holmes didn't have other great fighters to test himself against. Holmes really had no interest in fighting Ali, but he had to because Ali was the only guy who could bring him a big paycheck at that point in time.

Edited by BGrif21125, 28 October 2009 - 02:57 PM.

[Phil Plantier]

I enjoyed the Ali/Holmes one the best, because I'm not a boxing fan and I didn't expect much going into it (I only have vague memories of the match at the time - I remember all us kids being shocked that Ali lost - he was a cartoon hero).

I liked that Ali's training/sparring only got lukewarm applause from the crowd. I also thought it was a good mix of old footage/new interviews. Larry Holmes stole the show (his automobile phone call was great), and his description of his relationship with Ali was powerful.

[mcpickl]

I've been underwhelmed by all four of these so far. Feels like they need more than 45 minutes to tell these stories and too many things are being glossed over. I am hoping the Bias one will find a way to overcome this issue as well.

For instance the HBO boxing doc Assault in the Ring from earlier this year was fantastic, and ran about 90 minutes. I think if they had to cut it in half to jam into an ESPN hour time slot would have destroyed the film.

[drleather2001]

There is no mention of a 2004 ALCS one on the episode list on ESPN, and the only reference to it that I can find is from Simmons intro. There are still four episodes TBA, but is there any other evidence (other than Simmons) that the 2004 ALCS will be one of them?

[BannedbyNYYFans.com]

There is no mention of a 2004 ALCS one on the episode list on ESPN, and the only reference to it that I can find is from Simmons intro. There are still four episodes TBA, but is there any other evidence (other than Simmons) that the 2004 ALCS will be one of them?

I'd love it if you could direct me to where I could find this list (even w/out the missing four). I'm looking forward to the next three episodes. All three should be great. I'm especially interested in the Jimmy the Greek piece. The guy's life story was pretty amazing and his fall was so public that it has the potential to be awesome. I think this it's a story that has been largely ignored as well.

Next 3:

Without Bias
The Legend of Jimmy The Greek
The U

[kenneycb]

I'd love it if you could direct me to where I could find this list (even w/out the missing four). I'm looking forward to the next three episodes. All three should be great. I'm especially interested in the Jimmy the Greek piece. The guy's life story was pretty amazing and his fall was so public that it has the potential to be awesome. I think this it's a story that has been largely ignored as well.

Next 3:

Without Bias
The Legend of Jimmy The Greek
The U

Bada Bing

[BannedbyNYYFans.com]

Bada Bing

I've been searching for this. Thanks so much.

[8slim]

I enjoyed Holmes/Ali. Thought it did a good job of telling two compelling stories: the physical decline of Ali, and how Holmes was the forgotten great champ.

I couldn't help but think that on the latter, it showed how hypocritical we are as fans. So many of us talk about wanting to root for down-to-earth guys who appreciate their success, and man that's Larry Holmes. The footage of him trying to rhyme like Ali, building his "mansion", training next to his baby, was just so endearing. Isn't that the guy we say we want as a sports "hero". But of course we ignore those guys and focus on the Ali's. Human nature I guess.

Stupid question though, could Ali's Parkinson's actually be caused by his ring career? I thought that was a genetic thing. I've always wondered where the line was between the typical punch-drunk affect he had (like Frazier) and the disease.

[BGrif21125]

Stupid question though, could Ali's Parkinson's actually be caused by his ring career? I thought that was a genetic thing. I've always wondered where the line was between the typical punch-drunk affect he had (like Frazier) and the disease.

I have no medical background, but my understanding has always been that Parkinson's can either be a genetic disorder or be caused by chronic head trauma. So in Ali's case, it's assumed to be the latter.

Freddie Roach, an ex-boxer who's now best known for being Manny Pacquiao's trainer, also suffers from boxing-related Parkinson's.

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

Looking at the schedule, while not all look interesting to me, some should be incredibly fascinating. Like, for example, "The Two Escobars."

Throughout the 1980s and 1990s, many believe, Pablo Escobar’s Medellín Cartel and the Cali Cartels were largely responsible for financing and building the Colombian National soccer team into one of the world’s best. But in an early match against the United States in the 1994 FIFA World Cup, a Colombian defenseman named Andres Escobar—no relation to Pablo—committed an own goal that led to the team’s elimination. Less than ten days later, Escobar was gunned down outside a bar in a suburb of Medellin. He was shot 12 times, and the murderer shouted “goal” each time the trigger was pulled.

I remember when that happened and getting such a sick feeling -- the idea that making an honest mistake on the field costs you your life.

The 46-minute (plus commercials) imposed time length does seem to be the one factor holding these docs back. Why ESPN couldn't give each a two-hour time slot (about 90 minutes total film length), I don't know. Air each in two parts over two nights if they have to. I've only seen two so far (Bias and USFL) but both seemed to suddenly rush to wrap up just as they started really rolling.

I'm also a bit surprised that ESPN hasn't been promoting this series more heavily. I didn't even know it existed until I happened to channel surf onto the USFL doc.

Otherwise, amazing stuff. Best original programming ESPN has ever done.

Edited by Gene Conleys Plane Ticket, 04 November 2009 - 09:51 AM.

[Vinho Tinto]

Looking at the schedule, while not all look interesting to me, some should be incredibly fascinating. Like, for example, "The Two Escobars."
I remember when that happened and getting such a sick feeling -- the idea that making an honest mistake on the field costs you your life.

A UK magazine called "Four-Four-Two" did a story on the 10th anniversary of Escobar's murder. The main point was that his murder may have not been related to the world cup game, but a case of wrong place at the wrong time (He was out with his brother in law at a nightclub well past midnight & may have insulted a drug dealer). While it is a huge story, the details as to why it happened remain sketchy.

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

A UK magazine called "Four-Four-Two" did a story on the 10th anniversary of Escobar's murder. The main point was that his murder may have not been related to the world cup game, but a case of wrong place at the wrong time (He was out with his brother in law at a nightclub well past midnight & may have insulted a drug dealer). While it is a huge story, the details as to why it happened remain sketchy.

That's why I'm fascinated to see this documentary. The description I quoted above says that the killer shot Escobar 12 times, shouting "goal" every time he pulled the trigger. I hadn't heard that detail before, but if true, it wouldn't seem to leave much doubt.

[Sille Skrub]

To keep things somewhat organized:

I moved all the Len Bias discussion here.

[MoGator71]

Good call.

As someone who knows next to nothing about Jimmy the Greek I'm pretty intrigued by tonight's installment.

[Mirabelli28]

I am very excited about tonight's Jimmy the Greek episode. I am 39 and grew up on the "NFL Today." As a result I am a HUGE NFL fan. That was the best pregame show ever produced for TV and makes the meaningless fluff they put on today look like children's programming. The NFL Today was a serious and informed look into that day's games. It took itself and the subject it was covering seriously, but not too seriously. It is what pregame shows should always strive to be. When the Greek was fired and then Brent and Irv dismissed in 1990, the show never recovered. The current version isn't even in the same universe as that show. If you are in my age range or older you know what I am talking about. If not, I would expect this installment to give you a good idea what the show was like. I'm very curious about what happened to the Greek after the firing as not much was ever really said about him after that. That's why I like this 30 for 30 series so far: it is looking at subjects that happened in my lifetime and telling me things I didn't know or couldn't understand at a younger age. As an avid fan of the old NFL Today this should be a bonanza of good information. Hopefully it won't disappoint.

[BannedbyNYYFans.com]

I loved tonight's program (Jimmy the Greek). I was really looking forward to it and it didn't disappoint in my opinion. I'm 38 and remember The Greek very well. I thought the piece captured how big of a public figure he was and how incredibly quickly his star fell. This one and the USFL documentary have been my two favorite so far.

[bosockboy]

It was sensational. The Greek is part of the sporting fabric of the last 40 years that had slipped out of our consciousness and many youngsters had never heard of; ESPN told his story very well.

I especially was intrigued by what his son said; Greek was at the right place at the right time and could've made billions by buying property in and around Vegas or selling his name to a Sports Book. He never did it and died stone broke.

[8slim]

That was a fantastic documentary. Best of the bunch by far.

[loshjott]

I thought the Greek episode was OK. The "Good Fellas" style 1st person narration was grating at first, but it grew on me during the show. My biggest problem was the comparatively few scenes of the Greek himself on screen, rather than the aforementioned narration or people talking about him. He was on TV so often during his career that a few more scenes of the Greek himself would have been better.

Overall I enjoyed it, however. The bit about the Greek having the feeling Dewey would lose to Truman because his sister had once told him that women don't like men with mustaches was outstanding. Plus the stuff about him continually razzing Phyllis George until they had to start taping his bits in advance so they wouldn't be on the set together. Fascinating story.

[HomeBrew1901]

I thought the Greek episode was OK. The "Good Fellas" style 1st person narration was grating at first, but it grew on me during the show. My biggest problem was the comparatively few scenes of the Greek himself on screen, rather than the aforementioned narration or people talking about him. He was on TV so often during his career that a few more scenes of the Greek himself would have been better.

Overall I enjoyed it, however. The bit about the Greek having the feeling Dewey would lose to Truman because his sister had once told him that women don't like men with mustaches was outstanding. Plus the stuff about him continually razzing Phyllis George until they had to start taping his bits in advance so they wouldn't be on the set together. Fascinating story.

Yeah, I didn't get as much out of this one as I did the Len Bias episode. The first person narration annoyed me throughout because it wasn't fact it was conjecture. It would have been one thing if the guy had been reading from The Greek's diary or letters he had written but unless I missed something it wasn't so the Dewey stuff could have been made up through whole cloth.

There were some interesting scenes and moments, but it didn't resonate with me.

[MoGator71]

Yeah, I didn't get as much out of this one as I did the Len Bias episode. The first person narration annoyed me throughout because it wasn't fact it was conjecture. It would have been one thing if the guy had been reading from The Greek's diary or letters he had written but unless I missed something it wasn't so the Dewey stuff could have been made up through whole cloth.

There were some interesting scenes and moments, but it didn't resonate with me.

I was under the impression that he was reading from some sort of diary/memoir of The Greek, or at least stuff that he'd told other people, if not that really hurts it for me. I thought it was OK, I started watching football toward the tail end of his tenure, and I generally skipped the pregames and just tuned in at gametime. The story was pretty fascinating though.

[Vinho Tinto]

I liked it a lot. There has been talk of not having enough time to tell some of the stories, but Jimmy the Greek's felt just right.

THREE kids passed away from cystic fibrosis! I can't even imagine how he was able to cope.

[TheGodfather]

I could have done without the guy doing the Greek's voice trying WAY too hard to sound like a gangster. Other than that it was great, probably the best so far.

[Dollar]

I was under the impression that he was reading from some sort of diary/memoir of The Greek, or at least stuff that he'd told other people, if not that really hurts it for me.

I was under that impression as well, and then it became confusing when there were some parts that certainly wouldn't have been in his memoir, such as details about his last days before he died. I thought the entire documentary was very good, but that one thing really stuck out as a strange way to tell the story.

It was pretty jarring to see how the documentary credited Jimmy with being the force behind televised poker, then seeing how his life ended so tragically, and then immediately following the program with the World Series of Poker theme song as it went into the final table. His life was such a roller coaster ride, much like his gambling life.

Edited by Dollar, 13 November 2009 - 01:00 AM.

[jose melendez]

Anyone know where these are available online?

[HoyaSoxa]

Anyone know where these are available online?

They are on iTunes for download at $5 each. Don't know if there is any free source.

[moondog80]

They are on iTunes for download at $5 each. Don't know if there is any free source.

I watched a bunch of them on youtube, but I wouldn't be surprised if they've been removed.

[dirtynine]

Jimmy the Greek was the first one I've watched, and while it was compelling, it seemed stretched out to fill the full hour. The voiceover, zooming in on gritty polaroids, etc. I came away with some good info, but also thinking JtG's story can be told in a half hour.

Some of these stories probably don't have a "definitive" hour-long documentary yet because they don't quite scale to that level.

[FungosWithJimy]

I was under that impression as well, and then it became confusing when there were some parts that certainly wouldn't have been in his memoir, such as details about his last days before he died.

As I was watching it, I don't remember becoming confused or questioning that the first person narrative wasn't from Jimmy's own writings. Did I miss something? Did they just make up that whole narrative?

I guess I just assumed it was from something he'd written or spoken (biography, diary, memoirs, interviews, etc.).

[RingoOSU]

As I was watching it, I don't remember becoming confused or questioning that the first person narrative wasn't from Jimmy's own writings. Did I miss something? Did they just make up that whole narrative?

I guess I just assumed it was from something he'd written or spoken (biography, diary, memoirs, interviews, etc.).

He said something about the day he died. It all sounded made up to me.

[FungosWithJimy]

He said something about the day he died. It all sounded made up to me.

I thought they might have lifted some quotes from this book:

http://www.amazon.co...s/dp/1571681442

[SemperFidelisSox]

Unfortunately there's now a three week break until the next one airs about The U, and then the series won't return until March.

[Mirabelli28]

Bad job by ESPN with this hiatus. The fact is they have 4 different networks and can't find a place and time slot to air this series continuously? Why have all these outlets and then not use them for a series that is supposed to show they can do serious film making? I'm sure after 6 weeks, they had an audience in the routine of tuning in Tuesday at 8 and now they've blown that. Typical ESPN. Toot your horn about this series and then limit yourself to 6 weeks and out because you have to show Monmouth vs St. Peter's basketball (or whatever) that no one in America cares about. I really like the series but the people who run ESPN have no clue. 24 hours of meaningless college basketball? Check. A documentary series that actually has some teeth? Nah, can't fit it in and bump these scintillating hoop games. (And I love college basketball). Disappointing to say the least.

[RingoOSU]

Is this show supposed to run for 3 years then?