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#551 Beomoose


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Posted 11 October 2011 - 12:53 PM

I agree with what you're saying, I guess what I'm trying to express is my surprise that so many people admitted to not really paying attention to the play until the Alou hissy, and how much that kicked the storm off. I wouldn't say Moises was "called out" or anything like that, but Gibney did do something interesting by moving beyond the standard "could he have caught it? what if he caught it?" speculation.

#552 RedOctober3829


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Posted 11 October 2011 - 01:07 PM

There's a film tonight called The Dotted Line at 8 pm on ESPN. It's a behind-the-scenes look at the sports agency business. I saw some of the preview and it looks good.

#553 beezer

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 01:21 PM

Watched The Dotted Line last night and really enjoyed it. Was really interested by the scenes with Eugene Lee and also those with Luchs. Well worth a watch.

#554 Shelterdog


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Posted 12 October 2011 - 01:31 PM

Yeah, seriously. He was testing his own theory that Bartman should have known Alou was there because he was listening to the radio. For some reason though, at no point during the making of the movie, did anybody say "Hey, uhhhh, Alex? All radio is on a delay." What a pointless exercise.


Did they change the movie after the first airing? When I saw the documentary last week, they showed the play with the radio synced, and then said "we learned that radio is delayed", and showed the play with the 7 second delay, and it was just kind of pointless.

Edited by Shelterdog, 12 October 2011 - 01:58 PM.


#555 24JoshuaPoint


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Posted 12 October 2011 - 01:53 PM

Not sure if it's been mentioned but Catching Hell is on youtube in 10 parts.


ed - Some of the Buckner stuff at the beginning was quite painful for obvious reasons but the Buckner stuff at the end was pretty cool.

Edited by 24JoshuaPoint, 12 October 2011 - 03:39 PM.


#556 Spacemans Bong


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Posted 16 October 2011 - 03:00 PM

Yeah, seriously. He was testing his own theory that Bartman should have known Alou was there because he was listening to the radio. For some reason though, at no point during the making of the movie, did anybody say "Hey, uhhhh, Alex? All radio is on a delay." What a pointless exercise.

All radio isn't on a delay. I've been to Giants games and listened to the radio and it's live. They only did the seven second delay so they could sync the radio with Fox so people could watch the game and head Pat Hughes and Ron Santo instead of Thhh-om Brennaman moralizing. That said, it was still dumb, just because there's so many simpler explanations.

Edited by Spacemans Bong, 16 October 2011 - 03:01 PM.


#557 SoxScout


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Posted 31 October 2011 - 09:15 PM

The Chris Herren one is tomorrow night: "Unguarded"

NYT:

Heroin and painkillers play a larger role than basketball in “Unguarded,” an ESPN documentary on Tuesday night. “I come in here and tell you my nightmare,” the onetime star Chris Herren, long past his glory days, tells a gym full of high school students, and that’s the function of the film as well. Unlike the students, we don’t have to listen to him, but it’s a pretty good story; even if sports aren’t your thing, you might find it worth hanging around the gym for an hour and a half.



#558 Humphrey

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 11:03 AM

The Chris Herren one is tomorrow night: "Unguarded"

NYT:


Having read Fall River Dreams, I'm interested in seeing which locals they dig up for this one. Herren's HS coach was a real character (and hugely successful over the years), think he's still around.

Edited by Humphrey, 01 November 2011 - 11:03 AM.


#559 radsoxfan


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Posted 01 November 2011 - 08:27 PM

Pretty powerful stuff. Definitely worth watching.

Hopefully he stays sober, although I'm sure it's a struggle and it's certainly not assured by any means

#560 PC Drunken Friar

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 08:30 PM

Having read Fall River Dreams, I'm interested in seeing which locals they dig up for this one. Herren's HS coach was a real character (and hugely successful over the years), think he's still around.



The new book, Basketball Junkie, is very very good. It's amazing how he was able to play while high the entire time...there were nights where he would be buying dope n the players lot of the garden, in his warmups, 90 minutes before the game (I havent watched this program, so apologies if they said this,

#561 radsoxfan


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Posted 01 November 2011 - 08:31 PM

The new book, Basketball Junkie, is very very good. It's amazing how he was able to play while high the entire time...there were nights where he would be buying dope n the players lot of the garden, in his warmups, 90 minutes before the game (I havent watched this program, so apologies if they said this,


apparently it was more like 5 minutes before the game if you believe the documentary.....

#562 bball831

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 08:31 PM

These documentaries are just fantastic. What a phenomenal job by ESPN.

#563 SoxScout


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Posted 01 November 2011 - 08:32 PM

Damn, wow.

#564 Tyrone Biggums


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Posted 01 November 2011 - 08:45 PM

Great story, what would have happened if Herren had stayed in Denver? Would his life have turned out different? You have to wonder...

Jeff Allison is another player that immediately comes to mind with the parallels of being a local guy turned junkie, with so much promise. Tough...

Edited by Tyrone Biggums, 01 November 2011 - 08:47 PM.


#565 radsoxfan


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Posted 01 November 2011 - 09:14 PM

Great story, what would have happened if Herren had stayed in Denver? Would his life have turned out different? You have to wonder...


I very much doubt it.

Although going back to Boston didn't help (yet another bad move by Pitino.....) he was probably on a slippery downward slope either way. Clearly after his first year in the NBA he wasn't close to rock bottom, and was going to start using again if at all possible. You can't babysit someone 24/7 during the season and also during the offseason.

#566 HomeRunBaker


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Posted 01 November 2011 - 11:40 PM

Great story, what would have happened if Herren had stayed in Denver? Would his life have turned out different? You have to wonder...

Jeff Allison is another player that immediately comes to mind with the parallels of being a local guy turned junkie, with so much promise. Tough...


Not sure what there is to wonder. Is alcohol, coke, and heroin and less addicting in Denver than in Boston? Herren was a user at a young age and never stopped.....it wasn't like it was the NBA influence or a return to New England that led to his demise, he was a timebomb since his Durfee days like his brother Mike was.

#567 Tyrone Biggums


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Posted 02 November 2011 - 05:15 AM

Not sure what there is to wonder. Is alcohol, coke, and heroin and less addicting in Denver than in Boston? Herren was a user at a young age and never stopped.....it wasn't like it was the NBA influence or a return to New England that led to his demise, he was a timebomb since his Durfee days like his brother Mike was.


This is true, however he didn't have his friends in Denver that could give him his pills daily. He was getting babysat after games for the most part in Denver.

#568 TheoShmeo


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Posted 02 November 2011 - 07:04 AM

This is true, however he didn't have his friends in Denver that could give him his pills daily. He was getting babysat after games for the most part in Denver.

I was going to write the same thing and I wonder whether HRB had seen the documentary when he posted.

Herren was clearly at risk and Fall River would have always been there in the off season, of course. But he had some teammates who were looking out for him in Denver and his crew wasn't there.

PS: If Herren had come back from a summer of abusing himself to Denver, would guys like Van Exel have been looking for it and interceded? One of the many "what ifs," along with what would have happened had he not broken his arm in game one at BC, in Herren's story.

Edited by TheoShmeo, 02 November 2011 - 08:10 AM.


#569 HomeRunBaker


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Posted 02 November 2011 - 08:36 AM

I was going to write the same thing and I wonder whether HRB had seen the documentary when he posted.

Herren was clearly at risk and Fall River would have always been there in the off season, of course. But he had some teammates who were looking out for him in Denver and his crew wasn't there.


No, i have not watched it yet i was only going by my knowledge of his situation during his time with the Nuggets, his actions back in New England the following summer and the fact that the Nuggets gave up on him after one season without any up and coming young PG's on the roster the following year.

There is only so long veterans can keep a time bomb like Chris down as they have their own families and don't have Chris with them in the offseason. I will try to watch it tonight but having recalled the days of Chris being "recruited" by Leo Papile and his BABC summer league travel AAU team along with the drugs and the characters that ran with them back then this was the only way Chris lived. Play hard and party even harder. The Papile/Kevin Mackey feeder system that led many of the top Boston (and USA in some cases) high school players to Cleveland State continued that pattern which ultimately failed due to the rampant drug usage among the players and coaches. When Chris returned following his rookie season in Denver he played a few games in the North Providence Pro-Am Summer League and was hanging with the same cast of characters he had growing up which was prior to the trade......it is very possible that the Nuggets had someone investigating to see what he was up to that summer as they were on the verge of making a large investment in him. That is only speculation on my part but it certainly passes the smell test from what i saw.

I suppose if Chris had lived 12 months a year with one of the Nugget veterans he would have had a better chance but that isn't a realistic scenario.

#570 Alcohol&Overcalls

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 04:32 PM

I suppose if Chris had lived 12 months a year with one of the Nugget veterans he would have had a better chance but that isn't a realistic scenario.


Per the documentary, they had him under essentially 24/7 watch for the time he was in Denver, especially while on the road - he basically got the "Josh Hamilton treatment."

Edited by Alcohol&Overcalls, 02 November 2011 - 04:32 PM.


#571 ljs252

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 05:08 PM

Does anyone know when this will re-air? Had a prior commitment last night and wasn't able to see it unfortunately.

#572 PBDWake

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 05:54 PM

I think in about an hour

#573 ljs252

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 06:08 PM

I think in about an hour


Haha thanks just saw the ad for it.

#574 radsoxfan


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Posted 02 November 2011 - 06:59 PM

I was going to write the same thing and I wonder whether HRB had seen the documentary when he posted.

Herren was clearly at risk and Fall River would have always been there in the off season, of course. But he had some teammates who were looking out for him in Denver and his crew wasn't there.

PS: If Herren had come back from a summer of abusing himself to Denver, would guys like Van Exel have been looking for it and interceded? One of the many "what ifs," along with what would have happened had he not broken his arm in game one at BC, in Herren's story.


I don't know how you can watch that documentary and think that Herren's 10 year downward spiral will just magically not happen if he had better supervision. An addict is only going to stay clean for good with some serious internal motivation. This doesn't have to come from the type of stuff Herren went through (ruining his career, losing all his money, almost losing his family, near death experiences, personal embarrasment, etc). But it often does.

It certainly does not come from a couple of guys being nice to him and baby sitting him for 6 months. From everything we saw in that documentary, his mental state at that point was nowhere it needed to be for him to get clean for good.

Edited by radsoxfan, 02 November 2011 - 07:19 PM.


#575 radsoxfan


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Posted 02 November 2011 - 08:45 PM

FWIW, the Bill Simmons Podcast today with Herren was very well done. Don't often listen to them, and dont usually find Simmons a great interviewer, but on this one he was great.

Bill asked about his time in Denver, and Herren thought staying may have prolonged his career a year or two, but he was on an addiction path regardless. He also admitted that there were many times in Denver he was out til 5 and the morning and doing drugs, it was just less in comparison to the surrounding years.

#576 Ferm Sheller

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 10:28 PM

I don't know much about Chris Herren and I haven't seen this documentary and likely won't see it, but can someone please sum up why he's an interesting story? He was second round pick and even if he was clean, he likely wouldn't have amounted to much in the NBA. Seems like there probably are a perpetual line of JAGs, in all sports, whose end of the road is expedited by drug addiction.

Edited by Ferm Sheller, 02 November 2011 - 10:29 PM.


#577 HomeRunBaker


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Posted 02 November 2011 - 11:01 PM

Per the documentary, they had him under essentially 24/7 watch for the time he was in Denver, especially while on the road - he basically got the "Josh Hamilton treatment."


Radsoxfan summed it up perfectly. The key part of your post is "for the time he was in Denver", unfortunately the NBA has an offseason which resulted in Herren reporting to Nuggets camp out of shape and 15 lbs or so over his college playing weight due to him returning to Fall River that summer.

I don't know much about Chris Herren and I haven't seen this documentary and likely won't see it, but can someone please sum up why he's an interesting story? He was second round pick and even if he was clean, he likely wouldn't have amounted to much in the NBA. Seems like there probably are a perpetual line of JAGs, in all sports, whose end of the road is expedited by drug addiction.


The only reason Herren was a 2nd round pick was due to his widely publicized drug use at Fresno State. The kid was a top HS prospect and easily a mid-1st round talent who was a pretty safe bet to be a successful player had he been able to commit to the game off the court. He shared the backcourt at Fresno with a 7-year NBA starting PG in Rafer Alston and it was Herren, and not Alston, who was the driving force and leader of that team. Herren didn't have any major weaknesses in his game and had the athleticism it takes to compete at the NBA level.....his lifestyle however made it impossible for him to round into a very good NBA player.

#578 Ferm Sheller

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 11:07 PM

The only reason Herren was a 2nd round pick was due to his widely publicized drug use at Fresno State. The kid was a top HS prospect and easily a mid-1st round talent who was a pretty safe bet to be a successful player had he been able to commit to the game off the court. He shared the backcourt at Fresno with a 7-year NBA starting PG in Rafer Alston and it was Herren, and not Alston, who was the driving force and leader of that team. Herren didn't have any major weaknesses in his game and had the athleticism it takes to compete at the NBA level.....his lifestyle however made it impossible for him to round into a very good NBA player.


Oh, OK. He was the "guy who was on the cusp of having it all, but threw it away". That's the hook here. Wikipedia and other site I looked at didn't mention that he likely was on track for a long NBA career but for the addiction.

#579 rembrat


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Posted 02 November 2011 - 11:30 PM

This was really well done. I put it slighty below "The Two Escobars" which was top notch.

#580 nattysez

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 11:50 PM

Oh, OK. He was the "guy who was on the cusp of having it all, but threw it away". That's the hook here. Wikipedia and other site I looked at didn't mention that he likely was on track for a long NBA career but for the addiction.


If you lived anywhere in Massachusetts east of Worcester when he was in high school, he was a superstar and it was big news that he was going to BC. All of which, I'm sure, got Simmons interested in getting this made (assuming he did, which I think is a fair assumption).

I thought the doc was really good.

And thanks to the person who mentioned Jeff Allison -- I was trying to remember that guy's name...

Edited by nattysez, 02 November 2011 - 11:51 PM.


#581 TheoShmeo


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Posted 03 November 2011 - 05:53 AM

I don't know how you can watch that documentary and think that Herren's 10 year downward spiral will just magically not happen if he had better supervision. An addict is only going to stay clean for good with some serious internal motivation. This doesn't have to come from the type of stuff Herren went through (ruining his career, losing all his money, almost losing his family, near death experiences, personal embarrasment, etc). But it often does.

It certainly does not come from a couple of guys being nice to him and baby sitting him for 6 months. From everything we saw in that documentary, his mental state at that point was nowhere it needed to be for him to get clean for good.

I don't disagree. My point wasn't that Denver would have been a cure all. It was that being taken out of that environment increased the degree of difficulty and probably accelerated things.

But no doubt, Herren was a prime candidate to implode in any environment and it was probably always a matter of time.

Even now, who would be surprised if he fell back? I hope he doesn't but the odds are not in his favor.

#582 Dehere

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 09:05 AM

Don't really think this is thread-worthy but it's such an insane story that I wanted to post it somewhere. I'm putting it here because this guy's department was responsible for shepherding the 30 For 30 series: http://m.deadspin.co...of-erin-andrews

I guess Tom Shales is going to have to write an addendum for the paperback version of his book.

#583 mabrowndog


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Posted 08 November 2011 - 09:23 PM

Figured those of you who watched the "Unguarded" documentary on Chris Herren might be interested in this piece, which details his 3-month stay at a rehab center here in Falmouth.

link

#584 julesfan

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 12:01 AM

The Auburn/Alabama episode was top notch. Living in this area, it completely captured the frenzy of this rivalry.
On a side note, living in this area means I'm subjected to the Paul Finebaum show. His callers are beyond awful.

#585 TheGodfather

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 09:25 AM

The Auburn/Alabama episode was top notch. Living in this area, it completely captured the frenzy of this rivalry.
On a side note, living in this area means I'm subjected to the Paul Finebaum show. His callers are beyond awful.


I thought it was well done too. A little too heavy on the Harvey Updike for my taste (even if he was the one who made the rivalry go nuclear). Did we really need to see more of him than Saban and Stallings (or even Gay Talese)?

Totally agree about the Finebaum show. I gave it a try on Sirius and gave up after about a month. If listenting to a bunch of rednecks tell inside jokes is your idea of a good time then knock yourself out. Also, spare me the Paul Finebaum as dispassionate observer while the madness swirls around him. He is an Alabama fanboy through and through, and would probably have Nick Saban's love child if it were biologically possible.

#586 JMDurron

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 07:50 PM

I thought it was well done too. A little too heavy on the Harvey Updike for my taste (even if he was the one who made the rivalry go nuclear). Did we really need to see more of him than Saban and Stallings (or even Gay Talese)?

Totally agree about the Finebaum show. I gave it a try on Sirius and gave up after about a month. If listenting to a bunch of rednecks tell inside jokes is your idea of a good time then knock yourself out. Also, spare me the Paul Finebaum as dispassionate observer while the madness swirls around him. He is an Alabama fanboy through and through, and would probably have Nick Saban's love child if it were biologically possible.


He is more of an attention whore than a fanboy of any particular school. He panders to Alabama fans more because there are more of them and because it gets him better ratings. He's also perfectly willing to troll them when things are going Auburn's way, plus that keeps the misguided Auburn fans who expose themselves to his schtick on board. I believe he is actually a Tennessee grad, which might mean that UT is actually thinking way more long term when it comes to torturing a rival's fanbase.

I didn't watch the piece, but it seems like enough fans from both camps are annoyed about it that they probably did a fair job. I just have no interest in ESPN's take on the rivalry, particularly "through the perspective of Finebaum and his callers", or whatever the premise was.

#587 julesfan

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 09:00 PM

He is more of an attention whore than a fanboy of any particular school. He panders to Alabama fans more because there are more of them and because it gets him better ratings. He's also perfectly willing to troll them when things are going Auburn's way, plus that keeps the misguided Auburn fans who expose themselves to his schtick on board. I believe he is actually a Tennessee grad, which might mean that UT is actually thinking way more long term when it comes to torturing a rival's fanbase.

I didn't watch the piece, but it seems like enough fans from both camps are annoyed about it that they probably did a fair job. I just have no interest in ESPN's take on the rivalry, particularly "through the perspective of Finebaum and his callers", or whatever the premise was.



You should really watch it, the main focus was the take of the former players. Finebaum was a minor character in this, at least to me.

#588 Stu Nahan

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 08:24 PM

I am finally getting around to seeing the Luis Tiant documentary. Amazing. Made me love El Tiante
more and I only know his pitching through ESPN Classic, etc.

#589 PBDWake

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Posted 02 February 2012 - 11:32 AM

For those interested, Amazon's running a sale today on these. You can either get Vol 1 and 2 on DVD for $25 apiece, or do what I did and get the BluRay box set, which is apparently all 30, for $50.

#590 Papelbon's Poutine


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Posted 04 February 2012 - 03:48 AM

Thanks for the tip...picked this up as I missed...well...about 27 of them.

(null)

#591 johnmd20


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Posted 04 February 2012 - 12:17 PM

Thanks for the tip...picked this up as I missed...well...about 27 of them.

(null)


1800 minutes for 60 bucks. Not a bad deal.

#592 Lose Remerswaal


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Posted 15 May 2012 - 10:08 AM

A new 30 for 30 is coming


This time, short subjects on Grantland.com

#593 drleather2001


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Posted 15 May 2012 - 10:17 AM

If it's not related to the 30 years that ESPN's been around, and it's not on ESPN, and it's not full-length features...

Tell me why it's called "30 for 30" again?

#594 Vinho Tinto

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 10:37 AM

If it's not related to the 30 years that ESPN's been around, and it's not on ESPN, and it's not full-length features...

Tell me why it's called "30 for 30" again?


For the same reason it's still called the Big Ten: Branding.

#595 kenneycb


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Posted 15 May 2012 - 10:38 AM

Brand recognition.

Edit: What Red Wine said.

Edited by kenneycb, 15 May 2012 - 10:38 AM.


#596 BGrif21125

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 10:38 AM

I believe the digital shorts on Grantland are in addition to a new round of full length docs on ESPN.



#597 gammoseditor


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Posted 15 May 2012 - 10:56 AM

I believe the digital shorts on Grantland are in addition to a new round of full length docs on ESPN.


This is right. From the linked story:

As the films roll out, they will be augmented on Grantland by podcasts, feature stories and oral histories. A short digital film — which will be unrelated to the longer ones — will make its debut each month on Grantland.



#598 Gdiguy

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 02:10 AM

The first short is up, and it's a (really pretty sad) view of Pete Rose's current life signing memorabilia in Vegas (look down towards the bottom of the page)

http://www.grantland...d-our-attention

Edited by Gdiguy, 16 May 2012 - 02:11 AM.


#599 DaveRoberts'Shoes


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Posted 20 May 2012 - 10:20 PM

I just watched Four Days in October. Again.

I think I should watch that weekly. If not daily. I could get by on five and a half hours of sleep a night...

#600 Vandalman

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 10:45 AM

I just watched Four Days in October. Again.

I think I should watch that weekly. If not daily. I could get by on five and a half hours of sleep a night...


The "home movie" feel of it with all the cell phone footage from various angles just adds to the drama.



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