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Sept 23--Beckett vs Hochevar


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#351 TFisNEXT


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Posted 23 September 2009 - 10:19 PM

QUOTE (bosockboy @ Sep 23 2009, 11:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Foulke gave up his career in October 2004. He's the real hero of all that, #1 above anyone else. Never really gets talked about.



I still don't know how he managed to throw over 100 pitches in games 4, 5, and 6 without any rest between.


That Tony Clark AB at the end of game 6 with 2 outs still gives me the heebie jeebies....but he struck him out.

#352 Brianish

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Posted 23 September 2009 - 10:20 PM

QUOTE (Papelbot @ Sep 23 2009, 11:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The sad part is I've heard two different (idiot) announcers (I think Steve Phillips and the fast talker from the Texas Rangers booth) say in reference to Papelbon "Well, he's got a couple of rings"

...


He does. He beat Gagne up and took his.

#353 TFisNEXT


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Posted 23 September 2009 - 10:20 PM

Watah

#354 Sox-and-Bees

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Posted 23 September 2009 - 10:20 PM

WATAH! (5! at a minimum)

Edited by Sox-and-Bees, 23 September 2009 - 10:27 PM.


#355 Harry Agganis

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Posted 23 September 2009 - 10:21 PM

5!

#356 Sprowl


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Posted 23 September 2009 - 10:21 PM

Dirty water is disaster relief after losing the first two games of the series.



#357 bosox188

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Posted 23 September 2009 - 10:22 PM

QUOTE (TFisNEXT @ Sep 23 2009, 11:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I still don't know how he managed to throw over 100 pitches in games 4, 5, and 6 without any rest between.


That Tony Clark AB at the end of game 6 with 2 outs still gives me the heebie jeebies....but he struck him out.


I could be in the minority here, but for that Clark at bat I KNEW he was going to strike him out. After all we had seen happen I really wasn't that worried. I remember realizing only after the first 2 pitches that a home run would end the season.

Edit: Water.

Edited by bosox188, 23 September 2009 - 10:22 PM.


#358 BucketOBalls


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Posted 23 September 2009 - 10:22 PM

QUOTE (Brianish @ Sep 23 2009, 11:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
He does. He beat Gagne up and took his.


He deserves it. Paps and Oki basically WERE the bullpen for the last 7 games.

Water! Anything but a 1-2-3 there would have been mildly dissapointing.

Edited by BucketOBalls, 23 September 2009 - 10:22 PM.


#359 martybarrettoverdrive

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Posted 23 September 2009 - 10:24 PM

El Numero Mágico: Cinco

#360 bosockboy


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Posted 23 September 2009 - 10:25 PM

QUOTE (Sprowl @ Sep 23 2009, 10:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
In fairness, that gets talked about all the time. He got 21m for 3 years contract, and earned it all in the first year. Never recovered either. He was one of this relievers who went from great to awful, without any recovery phase in between. Lidge is more of a cyclical great/awful reliever. With velocity and slider like his, he'll be back again.


I suppose, but Schilling and Damon's granny and Lowe's 3 clinchers, etc..seems like it got the most pub. And of course the Roberts steal.

Foulke threw 80-90 pitches where the season hung in the balance of every single one of them over 3 days.

The Clark AB in Game 6 I was nearly snorting whiskey and sniffing glue at the same time. He had nothing left and got him...I'll never forget the shot of him on the mound smiling and the mic picked him up saying "had to make it interesting" and laughing out loud. I knew we won the series right there.

Edited by bosockboy, 23 September 2009 - 10:26 PM.


#361 SemperFidelisSox


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Posted 23 September 2009 - 10:27 PM

Ha. MLB.com just had Red Sox playoff sweatshirts up but then took them down. They looked good.

Soon.

#362 Sprowl


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Posted 23 September 2009 - 10:30 PM

QUOTE (bosockboy @ Sep 23 2009, 08:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I suppose, but Schilling and Damon's granny and Lowe's 3 clinchers, etc..seems like it got the most pub. And of course the Roberts steal.

Foulke threw 80-90 pitches where the season hung in the balance of every single one of them over 3 days.

The Clark AB in Game 6 I was nearly snorting whiskey and sniffing glue at the same time. He had nothing left and got him...I'll never forget the shot of him on the mound smiling and the mic picked him up saying "had to make it interesting" and laughing out loud. I knew we won the series right there.

I thought it was widely agreed that Foulke was clearly the playoff MVP of 2004, especially the Yankee series, but not limited to that. Giving Big Manny the World Series MVP was a national media mistake due to his greater notoriety, but I would have thought Foulke's performance could not have been overlooked. He was throwing 84-mph fastballs by the end of the series, and I'm still amazed that the Yankees never really caught up with them.

#363 Steven S. Dallas

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Posted 23 September 2009 - 10:38 PM

Foulke's effort isn't forgotten, but was kind of overshadowed by the hack job the CHB and others did on him afterwards. Not that Foulke did himself any favors, but the stuff about not liking baseball and the stuff about fans who don't understand the game etc. burned a lot of goodwill with the press and casual fans.

To me, he was unquestionably the postseason MVP.

Edited by Steven S. Dallas, 23 September 2009 - 10:38 PM.


#364 Foulkey Reese


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Posted 23 September 2009 - 10:39 PM

QUOTE (bosockboy @ Sep 23 2009, 11:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I suppose, but Schilling and Damon's granny and Lowe's 3 clinchers, etc..seems like it got the most pub. And of course the Roberts steal.

Foulke threw 80-90 pitches where the season hung in the balance of every single one of them over 3 days.

The Clark AB in Game 6 I was nearly snorting whiskey and sniffing glue at the same time. He had nothing left and got him...I'll never forget the shot of him on the mound smiling and the mic picked him up saying "had to make it interesting" and laughing out loud. I knew we won the series right there.

Thanks a lot asshole. Now I have to pop in my 2004 WS DVD and fast forward to that part.

Edited by Foulkey Reese, 23 September 2009 - 10:44 PM.


#365 bosox188

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Posted 23 September 2009 - 10:41 PM

QUOTE (Foulkey Reese @ Sep 23 2009, 11:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Thanks a lot asshole. Now I have to pop in my 2004 WS DVD and fast forward to that past.


I don't have my 2004 DVD handy, but after all this discussion I did just spent 20 minutes watching highlights of the 2007 postseason.

#366 TFisNEXT


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Posted 23 September 2009 - 10:41 PM

QUOTE (bosockboy @ Sep 23 2009, 11:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I suppose, but Schilling and Damon's granny and Lowe's 3 clinchers, etc..seems like it got the most pub. And of course the Roberts steal.

Foulke threw 80-90 pitches where the season hung in the balance of every single one of them over 3 days.

The Clark AB in Game 6 I was nearly snorting whiskey and sniffing glue at the same time. He had nothing left and got him...I'll never forget the shot of him on the mound smiling and the mic picked him up saying "had to make it interesting" and laughing out loud. I knew we won the series right there.



One of the spookiest ABs I've ever witnessed. It was a weird feeling...I knew that one swing could end the series, and I knew Foulke had absolutely nothing left after walking two guys and throwing 85-86mph on his FB...but I somehow managed to keep it together and actually think positive. But that certainly doesn't mean I wasn't nervous as hell.

I was chain smoking the final 3 innings of that game (the Bronson Arroyo/ARod thing had already given me a heart attack) even though I don't normally smoke. High 86mph "cheese" finally got Clark...still the best 86mph FB I have ever seen.

#367 Bob Montgomery's Helmet Hat


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Posted 23 September 2009 - 10:43 PM

Okay, so anyway, I don't think any closer has had the extreme roller coaster ride that Lidge is on.

He must have a huge problem between the ears.

#368 paulftodd


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Posted 24 September 2009 - 12:13 AM

This would have been a great series if not that 6 run abortion by MDC/Bard in the 1st game. Even Byrd was unlucky last night with the angry BABIP and incredible strike zone in the 1st, perhaps a temporary bridge from another universe where strikes are balls. Losing to Greinke was somewhat expected anyways, so no big deal.

In any event, all is well with the world, the lowly KCR are back to getting their butt kicked, and the Red Sox lose no ground to the MFY.


QUOTE (Steven S. Dallas @ Sep 24 2009, 11:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Foulke's effort isn't forgotten, but was kind of overshadowed by the hack job the CHB and others did on him afterwards. Not that Foulke did himself any favors, but the stuff about not liking baseball and the stuff about fans who don't understand the game etc. burned a lot of goodwill with the press and casual fans.

To me, he was unquestionably the postseason MVP.


Fans need someone to hate, a scapegoat of sorts, and most have the memory of gnats. Foulke of course was a key to 2004, and his bad times were related to injury. What fans need to do is when a player opens his mouth to speak, just turn the TV on mute. MLB players do not live in the real world and those with big bank accounts think this makes them smarter than they are, most of what they say is not worth hearing, especially when they feel they are getting a raw deal.
Some of the hate may be jealousy. I still remember my grandfather ranting at how Yaz made more money than the President every time he made an out.

Timlin was another target of the hate crowd as he wore down to age and injury, but he was also a key and he could have been remembered for the 2003 ring that never was, him and his closer by committee crew, Williamson and Embree. In fact the Red Sox probably don't get into the playoffs without BH Kim, another hater target. Little literally blew Kims arm out, not to mention blowing the ALCS. And then there are guys like Tek and Wake, also targets of the hate crowd, but 2004 probably does not happen w/o either one. Wake saving innings in game 3 of the ALCS saved the BP for game 4.

It's not a new phenomenom, guys like Yaz and Ted Williams were boo'ed most of their careers as the media fed them to the fans who need to hate.


QUOTE (martybarrettoverdrive @ Sep 24 2009, 11:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Ortiz with an outside chance at 100 RBI. Surprising given his start


Funny how the RBI has become so discredited, such as when Youk was an MVP candidate last year, or when you point out Drews lack of RBI's.

Hitting behind Youk and Bay was probably beneficial to Papi. He is ranked 3rd in the AL in PA w/ROB per PA (51.2%) and has a ROB driven in % of 14.3%, which is ranked 42nd in the AL (low due to his rough start). He has had 420 ROB and driven in 60 of them (before tonight). (stats from BP stats page)

Almost 1/2 of those RBI (42)_ came against interleague, Orioles, Blue Jays and KCR in 54 games, not that it means anything. Of course, he has done well against the MFY (13 RBI), so as long as this continues over the weekend.

QUOTE (Sprowl @ Sep 24 2009, 10:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yea, Bill James would say that -- in part because it justifies the demand for his services. rolleyes.gif

I'm not sure that one can evaluate things like defensive positioning and quick (or slow) breaks on batted balls without trusting your eyes. I think defensive quality depends more than offensive performance on attributes that are inherently difficult to measure, but still tangible.


At the end of the day, on offense what counts is getting hits and getting on base (and HR and RBI), and on defense it's about turning batted balls into outs.

The defensive metrics and offensive metrics both tell you this, although the defensive metrics have issues related to transparency and lack game logs and splits, and are pretty useless for 1Bman and catchers. But on offense you need 2 years of data and on defense you need 3 years of data to tell you a players talent level for what is being measured.

For shorter periods, especially 1-2 months, the data simply indicates the players results. The results may reflect good luck, bad luck, psychological or medicinal effects, injury, quality of opponent or lack thereof, etc. On defense, players may get bad breaks, be poorly positioned due to pitchers missing location or poor scouting, GB's take funny hops. On offense, bloops fall for hits, players who can run beat out weakly hit GB, LD are hit right at someone, etc.

The eyes tell you a lot too, but the average player get up offensively 4-5 times, and makes a play in the field 3-4 times. Many of these are routine plays, and most of us don't remember what we had for breakfasts, and are unlikely to have storage capacity to remember every play. So what we remember from our eyes tend to be the exceptionally good plays or exceptionally bad plays.

Just like pitching. The eyes tell me a lot over 1 game about a pitchers performance, more so than his box score stats or pitch f/x data, especially if you have a good camera angle of the plate. However, for assessing performance over multiple appearances, one really needs to capture what the eyes told you into some kind of metric or data that is accumulated and can be broken down.

For any aspect of baseball evaluation, you need both eyes and stats, and a mind not clouded with mush or bias.

But you hit the nail on the head by bringing up conflict of interest and the biases that can result, there are few if any analysts who are not selling something or not dependent on the MLB PTB for something. Thats why they stay away from the PED issue, juiced ball issue and other stuff.

I prefer Dewans plus minus (Fielding Bible). Volume II is a big improvement. The 2009 data and previous years are available on Bill James sight for like 3 dollars a month but you can't sort like you can UZR on Fan Graphs which is more user friendly.


#369 dynomite

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Posted 24 September 2009 - 12:25 AM

QUOTE (TFisNEXT @ Sep 23 2009, 11:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
One of the spookiest ABs I've ever witnessed. It was a weird feeling...I knew that one swing could end the series


To this day the only high-leverage Sox at-bat I was too nervous to watch.

I saw it between my fingers from across the room, sort of, but the thought of having consecutive seasons end at the hands of Aaron effing Boone and Tony effing Clark was too much to bear.