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Wagner to Boston for 2 PTBNL


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123 replies to this topic

#101 I am an Idiot


  • "Duke"


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Posted 25 August 2009 - 06:51 PM

QUOTE (SoxFanPJ @ Aug 25 2009, 07:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Verducci on MLB's Batting practice show said its Chris Carter and a PTBNL from the GCL.


Daisuke?

Kidding - If this is the package that is being sent, I am completely fine with Billy Wagner coming over to the good side. I feel that he won't accept the arb, and we'll net some great picks (performance-willing). I am just nervous about his transition to the AL East. Hopefully one of these NL pickups will pan out, we haven't had too much luck in that department (outside of JB).

#102 FanSinceBoggs

  • 488 posts

Posted 25 August 2009 - 06:56 PM

QUOTE (The Gray Eagle @ Aug 25 2009, 06:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This has Gagne redux written all over it.


The Gagne comparison doesn't work for me--he was a steroids guy and so we don't know what kind of role the juice was playing. . . .

I'm guessing that the Red Sox will use Wagner mostly as a lefty specialist. I don't expect him to play a larger role in the bullpen. I think Okajima will generally be the 8th inning guy, with Bard, Ramirez, Delcarmen, Saito, and Wagner pitching in the 6th and 7th innings. I doubt they have more ambitious plans for Wagner.

The key: the Red Sox must keep the bullpen fresh throughout September so that it performs at a high level in October.

Edited by FanSinceBoggs, 25 August 2009 - 07:00 PM.


#103 NDame616


  • will bailey


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Posted 25 August 2009 - 07:25 PM

I think he will be the 2nd lefty out of the pen. He will probaby slide in ahead of Saito/MDC/Ramirez in the "trust factor" but not in the Bard/Oki/Paps camp.

#104 Reverend


  • needs sharper knives


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Posted 25 August 2009 - 08:08 PM

QUOTE (Jed Zeppelin @ Aug 25 2009, 07:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Maybe less margin for error but Papelbon, Oki, Bard, MDC, Ramirez, Saito is worlds better than what the 2007 pen had to offer. Wagner doesn't need to step in and be a savior.

Gagne netted the Sox the 45th pick in the 2008 draft.

Yes they would have, because they aren't giving up much and have the chance to add another high draft pick along with a potentially decent lefty reliever.

I think this analysis is on point. It's really easy to fall into looking at a guy and saying, "How good is he?" The appropriate question, though, is to what degree he makes the team better or worse. So the question is: will Wagner offer more relief quality than would the guy whom he replaces.

A secondary issue is whether or not he ties up money or picks going forward that prevents the Red Sox from being better in the future. That doesn't seem to be a problem here.

A tertiary issue is whether or not he, as a person, can poison the whole team. (And yeah, as someone else said, I'd love to have been a fly on the wall for certain conversations, because as I watched coverage of this online, I saw what appeared to be that gap where nothing is said, but it's like that moment in a cartoon where someone's dragged into a room and you can't see in but you hear furniture being thrown around.)

QUOTE (paulftodd @ Aug 25 2009, 07:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Well since he can only pitch every 3rd day, so one wonders how many high leverage situations he will have available to him.

I think he is mainly insurance in case somebody is injured or blows up during the remainder of the season. He will have more value in the post-season where there are more off days. Of course, if he sucks in the regular season, he won't get much work in the post season.

This sounds solid and to me, it means that Theo and the rest of the brain trust decided they needed pitching. Pitching, pitching, pitching, right?

One wonders if the streakiness of the offense has led the FO to try to completely nail down the bullpen because, well, it appears possible.

Edited by Reverend, 25 August 2009 - 08:12 PM.


#105 Bellhorn


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Posted 25 August 2009 - 10:52 PM

QUOTE (FanSinceBoggs @ Aug 25 2009, 07:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm guessing that the Red Sox will use Wagner mostly as a lefty specialist. I don't expect him to play a larger role in the bullpen. I think Okajima will generally be the 8th inning guy, with Bard, Ramirez, Delcarmen, Saito, and Wagner pitching in the 6th and 7th innings. I doubt they have more ambitious plans for Wagner.

I agree - I think a secondary benefit to this move will be that on days where Wagner is available to pitch, Francona is free to use Okajima however he sees fit, without the constraint of keeping him available for an important PA against a LHB. I think there's at least the potential for a positive ripple effect throughout the bullpen as long as Wagner shows he can be reasonably effective.

#106 OBPercent1

  • 276 posts

Posted 27 August 2009 - 06:13 PM

I was at the McCoy this afternoon and spoke with Chris Carter and he confirmed to me he is on trade waivers right now and is heading to the Mets tomorrow, which is ironic because their AAA team Buffalo was in town yesterday and today for a quick two game series.

#107 Comeback Kid

  • 759 posts

Posted 27 August 2009 - 06:18 PM

QUOTE (OBPercent1 @ Aug 27 2009, 07:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I was at the McCoy this afternoon and spoke with Chris Carter and he confirmed to me he is on trade waivers right now and is heading to the Mets tomorrow, which is ironic because their AAA team Buffalo was in town yesterday and today for a quick two game series.


Not just yet. Yankees claimed him on waivers so he won't go to the Mets this season.

Amalie Benjamin via Rotoworld



Edited for clarity.

Edited by Comeback Kid, 27 August 2009 - 06:19 PM.


#108 j44thor

  • 3969 posts

Posted 27 August 2009 - 07:06 PM

QUOTE (Comeback Kid @ Aug 27 2009, 07:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Not just yet. Yankees claimed him on waivers so he won't go to the Mets this season.

Amalie Benjamin via Rotoworld



Edited for clarity.


What a petty, BS move...

I'm sure they only did because it irks two of their rivals.

All it really does is fuck Carter who won't play baseball again this season.

#109 MoGator71

  • 4840 posts

Posted 27 August 2009 - 07:26 PM

QUOTE (j44thor @ Aug 27 2009, 08:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
What a petty, BS move...

I'm sure they only did because it irks two of their rivals.

All it really does is fuck Carter who won't play baseball again this season.


How commonplace is this? I can only remember 2 specific cases, this one and the TB claim of Stern when the Sox dealt him for Javy Lopez. Is it done often, or is it more of a specific dick move against Boston?

#110 CSteinhardt


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Posted 27 August 2009 - 07:54 PM

So does this mean we're going to see a Fenway crowd going wild to the strains of 'Enter Sandman'?

#111 Bowlerman9


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Posted 27 August 2009 - 08:02 PM

QUOTE (MoGator71 @ Aug 27 2009, 08:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
How commonplace is this? I can only remember 2 specific cases, this one and the TB claim of Stern when the Sox dealt him for Javy Lopez. Is it done often, or is it more of a specific dick move against Boston?


I think the unwritten rule is that you dont claim a player in a trade like that. I think its only done out of spite.

The difference here is, this fucks over Chris Carter far worse than anyone else.

At least Stern was on the Sox ML roster for the month of September.

Not only would Carter have had a month as (most likely) a full time player with the Mets, he would have received a ML salary. If Boston doesnt call him up (and I doubt they will) he wont have a chance to prove himself AND he wont receive a ML salary.

Total dick move on the part of the Yankees. Doesnt hurt Boston one bit. Hurts the Mets a little. Hurts Chris Carter a ton.

#112 cannonball 1729

  • 1895 posts

Posted 27 August 2009 - 10:30 PM

QUOTE (Bowlerman9 @ Aug 27 2009, 09:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If Boston doesnt call him up (and I doubt they will)

They can't. A PTBNL "may not be an active Major Leaguer player during the interval between the trade and the date the player is named," as the Biz of Baseball points out. It used to be that the PTBNL had to play in a different league at the time of the trade (so AL to NL was okay), but I believe the rule was recently changed so that a team can't get production from a player and the player he was traded for at the same time. Now, the PTBNL and traded player cannot play in the same league between the time of the trade and the time the PTBNL is named.

The one way this does hurt the Sox is that they have to burn a 40-man roster spot on somebody who can't play for the major league team. Unless the Sox can convince him to go on the 60-day DL with Wagneritis, it forces the Sox to jettison a player.

Edit:
QUOTE (Bowlerman9 @ Aug 27 2009, 09:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
At least Stern was on the Sox ML roster for the month of September.

He wasn't. The last game he played for the Sox was on April 19 of that year.

Edited by cannonball 1729, 27 August 2009 - 10:55 PM.


#113 Noah

  • 3164 posts

Posted 28 August 2009 - 12:59 AM

Why didn't the Mets claim Carter? I thought waiver order was reverse standings. I know a few years ago it used to be that the whole league would get dibs before the other league, but I thought they did away with that and just went with overall worst record first, etc.

#114 findguapo

  • 421 posts

Posted 28 August 2009 - 01:53 AM

QUOTE (Noah @ Aug 28 2009, 12:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Why didn't the Mets claim Carter? I thought waiver order was reverse standings. I know a few years ago it used to be that the whole league would get dibs before the other league, but I thought they did away with that and just went with overall worst record first, etc.


AL teams get dibs before NL teams

#115 smastroyin


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Posted 28 August 2009 - 07:03 AM

I agree that it sucks but I also don't think it's something that our FO wouldn't do if it thought it gave them an edge.


#116 Boggs26

  • 254 posts

Posted 28 August 2009 - 07:25 AM

QUOTE (smastroyin @ Aug 28 2009, 08:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I agree that it sucks but I also don't think it's something that our FO wouldn't do if it thought it gave them an edge.


what possible edge could that give to the Yankees? They blocked a trade thats going to happen anyway...it doesn't hurt the redsox and the yankees won't be playing the Mets this season so although I agree that the Sox would do it if it gave them an edge, that's not the case here as far as I can tell...

#117 TheoShmeo


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Posted 28 August 2009 - 07:26 AM

QUOTE (smastroyin @ Aug 28 2009, 08:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I agree that it sucks but I also don't think it's something that our FO wouldn't do if it thought it gave them an edge.

But what's the edge? That it irks and inconveniences the Red Sox? It seems to me that it would only go beyond slight irritation if it caused the Sox to increase the compensation they had to give to the Mets. Or is the edge only vis-a-vis the Mets, who now don't have the ability to evaluate Chris Carter for the rest of the season? If so, I'm surprised the Yankees care this much about the Mets player development with respect to a player like Chris Carter.

It seems like all of those edges are tiny, at best, and that this was nothing more than a finger in the eye to both teams.

All that said, if I'm wrong and what the Yankees did actually harms the Sox in some way that I'm not seeing, then I'd indeed want the Sox to do the same thing to the Yankees if given the chance. I just don't see how they did anything material other than screw Chris Carter.

Edited by TheoShmeo, 28 August 2009 - 07:27 AM.


#118 Joshv02

  • 1380 posts

Posted 28 August 2009 - 07:35 AM

The edge is that it forces Carter to stay on the 40 man roster, no? It isn't the end of the world, but its a pain in the ass if you want to bring up Byrd, or if you wanted to add Kalish (unlikely) or someone else.

#119 Worst Trade Evah


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Posted 28 August 2009 - 07:43 AM

How about just letting him go to the Yankees and finding someone else for the Mets? Does he actually have any value bigger than making the Yankees make a roster move for him? Seems unlikely the Sox would actually worry about Carter's performance for the Yankees.

#120 smastroyin


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Posted 28 August 2009 - 07:46 AM

Materially it may add up to nothing, that's why I used the "thought"

But it does take up a roster spot and prevents a team that has already used 48 players this year from grabbing another. Personally I don't think that's worth much, in fact it's probably not worth the trouble it took to place the waiver claim. But, it is not beyond me to believe that the Yankees want the Red Sox to have just that little bit less felxibility and are not doing this to spite people. In general, while there is a lot of talk of bad blood, the owners and front offices of these clubs are all in business together. They often screw players but they don't often screw each other just for fun. And, frankly the team that has done the most screwing over of other organizations with regards to violating "gentlemen's agreements" is the Boston Red Sox.

On the other hand, while I don't see Cashman doing the petty bullshit, maybe little SiaS decided to.

edit: WTE I thought the same thing, but it's possible the Mets just like Carter for whatever reason.

#121 Boggs26

  • 254 posts

Posted 28 August 2009 - 07:52 AM

QUOTE (Worst Trade Evah @ Aug 28 2009, 08:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
How about just letting him go to the Yankees and finding someone else for the Mets? Does he actually have any value bigger than making the Yankees make a roster move for him? Seems unlikely the Sox would actually worry about Carter's performance for the Yankees.


If the Mets were open to someone else of similar value (maybe bailey?) I think this would be a great way to thank the Yankees for claiming him. We still get the free slot and suddenly its the Yankees with slightly less maneuverability. Guess it depends on whether the Sox think Carter and whoever his equivalent might actually have value or if this was just a way to clear him off the roster without just cutting him...

Obviously I don't expect this to happen because most likely Carter has some value and we wouldn't want to toss two 'Carters' just to get that minimal edge of sticking the Yankees with one of them, but it really does hinge entirely on what value we think Carter has and what the alternative move to the Mets would be.

#122 Bowlerman9


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Posted 28 August 2009 - 09:04 AM

I just want to point out that the Yankees have Kevin Cash on their 40 man roster as a 4th catcher, so while I also had the idea to let them have Carter to screw them over, all they would do is DFA Cash and acquire Carter. Not really a bad scenario for them.

#123 xjack


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Posted 28 August 2009 - 12:29 PM

QUOTE (Joshv02 @ Aug 28 2009, 08:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The edge is that it forces Carter to stay on the 40 man roster, no? It isn't the end of the world, but its a pain in the ass if you want to bring up Byrd, or if you wanted to add Kalish (unlikely) or someone else.

How is it a pain in the ass? Jeff Bailey and Dusty Brown are currently on the 40-man roster and both are totally expendable.

#124 SoxScout


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Posted 29 August 2009 - 03:13 PM

QUOTE
One reason the Yankees put in a claim for Chris Carter was because of Paul Byrd. Stick with us here.

Byrd spent most of this season as a free agent and the Yankees were negotiating with him around midseason to bring him in as rotation insurance, a source told The Post. The Yanks were told by Byrd that they were his first choice, the source said. However, the Yanks refused Byrd's request to be assured of a Sept. 1 promotion.

So Byrd signed earlier this month with the Red Sox.

When the Yanks learned that Carter was one of the players that was going to the Mets in the Billy Wagner deal, they claimed Carter him on waivers and forced Boston to pull the outfielder/first baseman back. One reason was they assumed Boston had to make the same deal with Byrd -- to bring him up on Sept. 1 -- that the Yanks refused. So that meant Byrd has to be put on the 40-man roster. So the Yanks figured they could cause some 40-man roster havoc for their main nemesis by forcing Carter back on the 40-man, as well, at a time when Wagner, too, had to be added and Daisuke Matsuzaka is close to coming back from the 60-day DL.
Joel Sherman