215 replies to this topic

[Mystic Merlin]

Is your friend a professional athlete who depends on his body to make millions and has access to drs/nutritionists to make sure whatever he is going to take won't harm his body?

Nobody is absolving him. Ortiz is responsible - like any other player - for what he puts into his body. If he was careless or ignorant, he's completely culpable.

[Ed Hillel]

Is your friend a professional athlete who depends on his body to make millions and has access to drs/nutritionists to make sure whatever he is going to take won't harm his body?

So you think that every single baseball player back before this whole steroids thing had personal physicians and nutritionists that both watched over everything they put in their body, wrote it down, and tested it?

Ortiz wasn't exactly rich during those days, either.

[jdubbya]

I've sat on 4 juries, in 4 different states, and was chairperson on 3 of them.

If you can't objectively determine that Ortiz's responses were designed to be evasive, and that he was advised to stay away from certain key words, then you're blind as a bat. The union is CLEARLY hiding behind the court protections, and has carefully researched what other information any possible "leakers" might have had access to. They are CLEARLY posturing their response around the "many supplements were legal and not banned by MLB back in 2003" defense as a means of creating more doubt and obfuscation.

Papi was CLEARLY told not to acknowledge any specific supplements by name. If you don't believe that, you're an idiot.


Yeah. It says "Hey, we can't keep avoiding the microscope any longer. These leaks could bury us. So Let's come out with something that further clouds the issue without directly implicating the player. We've got a week to work on this. The whole world loves Big Papi, so now's our chance to propr him up in front of cameras and capitalize on public sympathies."

THAT'S what it says.

GREAT post 'dog. Exactly my thoughts on today.

[jcd0805]

Now how do we reconcile the statement, that once the drug policy was put into affect and certain supplements that players (obviously including him) we not longer allowed with the statement that he has no idea how or why he could have tested positive and that he has no idea what he took. If he know he took a supplement that was allowed in 2003 and not in 2004, why on earth would he not simply say that. It just makes not sense. Language barriers are one thing, but I know he could easily communicate the exact same thing that Arroyo did last week, that I took andro supplements, Loved em, and thats what it must have been.

Yeah that's what McAdam was trying to get out of him and David was totally evasive.

[Rocco Graziosa]

"David, after you initial test in 2003 were you advised by anyone to stop taking supplements"

"No, like I said, I started listen about the situation that the league was going through, that's how I started educating myself and putting attention to everything that has gone on, and then we got that drug policy coming out in 2004, that it was some supplement that players were using that you are not allowed to use anymore, so I follow it from there"

(Umms and Ahhs omitted for fairness of language barrier)

Now how do we reconcile the statement, that once the drug policy was put into affect and certain supplements that players (obviously including him) we not longer allowed with the statement that he has no idea how or why he could have tested positive and that he has no idea what he took. If he know he took a supplement that was allowed in 2003 and not in 2004, why on earth would he not simply say that. It just makes not sense. Language barriers are one thing, but I know he could easily communicate the exact same thing that Arroyo did last week, that I took andro supplements, Loved em, and thats what it must have been.

If it was simply some supplements he was taking, he must have, at some point, known what to stop taking because otherwise he would have continued to test positive, no?

[jcd0805]

So you think that every single baseball player back before this whole steroids thing had personal physicians and nutritionists that both watched over everything they put in their body, wrote it down, and tested it?

Ortiz wasn't exactly rich during those days, either.

No, but I'm pretty sure each team had a dr. and a nutritionist on staff, no?

[Mystic Merlin]

I've sat on 4 juries, in 4 different states, and was chairperson on 3 of them.

If you can't objectively determine that Ortiz's responses were designed to be evasive, and that he was advised to stay away from certain key words, then you're blind as a bat. The union is CLEARLY hiding behind the court protections, and has carefully researched what other information any possible "leakers" might have had access to. They are CLEARLY posturing their response around the "many supplements were legal and not banned by MLB back in 2003" defense as a means of creating more doubt and obfuscation.

Papi was CLEARLY told not to acknowledge any specific supplements by name. If you don't believe that, you're an idiot.


Yeah. It says "Hey, we can't keep avoiding the microscope any longer. These leaks could bury us. So Let's come out with something that further clouds the issue without directly implicating the player. We've got a week to work on this. The whole world loves Big Papi, so now's our chance to propr him up in front of cameras and capitalize on public sympathies."

THAT'S what it says.

I have no doubt the PA and MLB looked to spin this as best as they could.

But I think you're assuming - perhaps incorrectly - that Ortiz actually knows what he took.

[Mystic Merlin]

If it was simply some supplements he was taking, he must have, at some point, known what to stop taking because otherwise he would have continued to test positive, no?

I am pretty sure he said he stopped taking supplements.

[jdubbya]

If it was simply some supplements he was taking, he must have, at some point, known what to stop taking because otherwise he would have continued to test positive, no?

Does anyone actually think that Ortiz was waltzing into GNC or going online to buy his pills? When the list of banned substances came out in 2003/04, he handed it to his 'buyer', asked him if he takes any of these pills, if so told him he can't take these anymore and get me what I can take.

Edited by jdubbya, 08 August 2009 - 12:23 PM.

[joyofsox]

He would not name even one legal supplement he took.

Better to be thought of as an idiot, I guess.

[Ed Hillel]

No, but I'm pretty sure each team had a dr. and a nutritionist on staff, no?

Yeah, but how much can one nutritionist do to monitor an entire roster? We also don't know what the nutritionists knew what was ok to take and what they were telling the players to take.

[Sprowl]

Yeah. It says "Hey, we can't keep avoiding the microscope any longer. These leaks could bury us. So Let's come out with something that further clouds the issue without directly implicating the player. We've got a week to work on this. The whole world loves Big Papi, so now's our chance to propr him up in front of cameras and capitalize on public sympathies."

That's a plausible union mindset, but I think they are wrong about the whole world loving Big Papi. This awkward televised avoidance of the key questions will sap most of what remains of his credibility, and the love won't endure for long when both the credibility and the performance are gone. All that will be left is the ear-to-ear Cheshire Cat smile.

[fuzzy_one]

I am pretty sure he said he stopped taking supplements.

Because of the changes in MLB drug policy and because of related issues (anyone remember O's prospect Steve Bechler dying after taking ephedra?), I believe the general player approach to supplements changed pretty dramatically from 2002-2004. Many players interviewed about the subject have been clear about the shift. Before 2004, players had little impetus to chart and track everything they put in their bodies -- unlike, say, Olympic athletes, who had been doing so for years. Fear concentrates the mind greatly; it also creates a drive for structure and caution.

[D Jack's Dome]

Does anyone actually think that Ortiz was waltzing into GNC or going online to buy his pills? When the list of banned substances came out in 2003/04, he handed it to his 'buyer', asked him if he takes any of these pills, if so told him he can't take these anymore and get me what I can take.

Yes, the guy with 57 career home runs and 455 career games played in 2003 was such a high roller that there was no way he'd walk into GNC or--heaven forbid--read a magazine to find out about weight training and supplements like all us normal everyday Joe's. He clearly got designer steroids rolled up to his 30 million dollar mansion in a gold plated brinks truck with custom spinners on the side. And he shot everything into his ass using a diamond studded needle...which he threw away after using of course.

[Maalox]

No comment on how well Ortiz or Weiner are handling this.

But I will say it's pretty Kafkaesque to be declared guilty in the press by anonymous sources, and then not have access to the evidence on which those accusations were based.

I was very condemning of Ortiz when this news first came out, but I am starting to come around to your angle. I was critical of his "I have to find out what's going on" silliness, but at the same time it does seem that this is what happened from Ortiz's perspective:

1. A leak came out saying "Ortiz did something bad."
2. The media asked, "Well did you do it?"
3. Ortiz says, "Did I do what bad?"
4. The media basically says to him, "we don't know, but you must tell us."
5. The league basically says to him, "we're not going to tell you."

Now, Ortiz probably did something bad and probably knows what. But absent a criminal charge (and perhaps even then) he's under no obligation to unburden his soul to anyone. Why didn't he tell Sean McAdam a week ago he hadn't used steroids? I'll tell you fucking why.

a) because NO ONE is under ANY obligation to tell Sean McAdam ANYTHING; and
b) because if Ortiz had been so dumb as to say such a thing before he knew what he'd tested positive for, he'd look a like a prize idiot when that leaked, too.

You don't wipe your ass in public unless absolutely necessary. Some fat harp reporter's feigned indignance does not count as "absolutely necessary."

It seems to me that whether a player has done something bad or not -and I suspect Ortiz has- he's still not being treated very fairly if he's being treated like this. People guilty of crimes (which taking steroids wasn't at the time Ortiz tested positive for whatever he tested for) get better treatment.

Companies were sending him things to try. He could have simply said to them, "Great, but no steroids." Or he could have said, "If you send me steroids I will deny ever using them." His lawyer is good both at dissembling and at deflecting the outrage at Ortiz onto himself, so I have to think he has thought through whatever strategy they're taking. An avowal that Ortiz never took steroids would not seem to fit in with that strategy unless it is based on some actual knowledge either of a) what Ortiz actually took or b) what Ortiz can get away with lying about not taking.

What I think I think about this "list":
1) MLB is trying to cleanse its own image essentially throwing players to the wolves without allowing those players the full means to defend themselves;
2) The players' union (as opposed to the players themselves or certainly the particular players identified) is going along with it because they know baseball has/had a PED problem and this seems like the easiest way out.

[ReggieSmith]

Yeah but then how did he know which one to stop taking so he wouldn't continue to test positive???

I would think that after 2003 players that took things without checking on the contents became much more selective. I think a good question would have been "have you ever received and taken samples from BALCO?".

[pokey_reese]

Agreed, they asked him specifically about Andro and he couldn't answer yes or no, I think you know definitively if you took that particular supplement or not.

Honestly, I took a few supplements when I was a wrestler in high school, and I am now wondering if I took andro or something like that. I don't remember the particular names of the things I took, so I have no way of finding out, they were powders that I mixed into Gatorades. I was tested once and came up clean, but I have no way of remembering if I was taking anything at that time, or what they were looking for.

[PedroKsBambino]

I don't think anyone who is or has talked to a lawyer about how you handle a situation like this would be surprised he didn't state specifics about his supplement use.

You can argue that his risk of being prosecuted is very, very low and his PR need to say specifics is very, very high and that this suggests he should have taken a different approach. However, and I say this having talked to several white collar crim attorneys about this and having done that a bit myself in the past, I think if he has a lawyer (and he nearly certainly does) they would have strongly advised him not to say what many here are asking him to say.

If you think he should have said more, ask Roger Clemens how that approach is working out for him. Different facts, huge difference in prosecution risk due to the testimony, etc. but fundamentally, Ortiz really shouldn't from a legal perspective say anything more than he did today, imo. It looks damning to some, I realize, but I think he has to play it about has he did today.

Frankly, even saying "I didn't use steroids" is more than he might have been advised to say but since it's not under oath I think on that one the risk/reward suggests saying it if you are 100% sure it's true.

Edited by PedroKsBambino, 08 August 2009 - 12:39 PM.

[jdubbya]

Yes, the guy with 57 career home runs and 455 career games played in 2003 was such a high roller that there was no way he'd walk into GNC or--heaven forbid--read a magazine to find out about weight training and supplements like all us normal everyday Joe's. He clearly got designer steroids rolled up to his 30 million dollar mansion in a gold plated brinks truck with custom spinners on the side. And he shot everything into his ass using a diamond studded needle...which he threw away after using of course.

He was paid $1.25m by the Red Sox in 2003, and his career earnings before that was close to $1.5m, just a little more than minimum wage.

You don't think pro athletes have trainers and hanger-ons that run errands for them? Even at the lowest level?

[yeomen]

Lastly, and I have not heard it addressed anywhere yet, but he did say that these "legal over the counter supplements" were bought in the US and the DOMINICAN, after which Weiner immediately got in Ortiz ear. Now, I do not think the "legal over the counter supplements" in the US and the Dominican are the same. Considering that, I can see why Ortiz can not say with conviction that is was only an andro based GNC supplement. Lots of people are throwing around GNC, but is these "supplements" were legally bought in the DOMINICAN, there could be a hell of a lot more than just Andro in his positives.

I suspect that is why he will not just say it was and ANDRO based GNC thing, like Arroyo did, because he knows it could be a lot worse

By including the fact he bought some in the DOMINICAN he basically removed the conditions and assumptions we generally attach to"legal over the counter" as defined in the USA

[joyofsox]

1. A leak came out saying "Ortiz did something bad."
2. The media asked, "Well did you do it?"
3. Ortiz says, "Did I do what bad?"
4. The media basically says to him, "we don't know, but you must tell us."
5. The league basically says to him, "we're not going to tell you."

It seems to me that whether a player has done something bad or not -and I suspect Ortiz has- he's still not being treated very fairly if he's being treated like this. People guilty of crimes (which taking steroids wasn't at the time Ortiz tested positive for whatever he tested for) get better treatment.

I agree. But he still could have been far more forthcoming if he was indeed clean.

I was expecting a bit of honesty, but perhaps I was naive. Arroyo came right out last week and said Fuckin' A right I took andro, and I loved it, but when it was banned, I stopped. He's not a Ortiz-level star, but did that make much of a wave at all? How hard is it to say I took something when it was legal and allowed by MLB and when I was told it was now not allowed, I stopped?

I guess he has to play dumb since he apparently doesn't know what he tested positive for.

[bd11]

The whole show was so confusing that it probably made people lose interest, which was likely the union's strategy in the first place.

Regardless I thought Papi came off ok.

[PedroKsBambino]

I agree. But he still could have been far more forthcoming if he was indeed clean.

I was expecting a bit of honesty, but perhaps I was naive. Arroyo came right out last week and said Fuckin' A right I took andro, and I loved it, but when it was banned, I stopped. He's not a Ortiz-level star, but did that make much of a wave at all? How hard is it to say I took something when it was legal and allowed by MLB and when I was told it was now not allowed, I stopped?

I guess he has to play dumb since he apparently doesn't know what he tested positive for.

I think there's two things to consider.

1. Arroyo is likely a lot more carefree on these issues than Ortiz
2. One source of risk for Ortiz is that he could have used a supplement in DR that is banned in US, and he has potential exposure if he brought some of that supplement with him from DR to US.

Is that likely? Nope. But it's part of why I suspect he was told by a high-priced crim attorney to stfu about details.

[Swingandadrive]

I guess I'm an idiot because I actually thought the whole thing sounded pretty credible to me. I thought Weiner was very good. It was news to me that there are apparently 3 different numbers going around, the 104 on the government list, 96 possible positives of which 83 were confirmed. It was also news to me that those were test results not individual players. So one guy could tested positive multiple times and he takes up 2 or 3 of the 83. I didn't realize before that there were 13 tests the union would have "contested" as false positives but since the 5% threshold had already been reached they didn't bother to because this survey was just to determine + or - 5%.

I know a bunch of guys at my job that used to be gym rats that would be mixing powered shit with water or gatorade all the time and they had no idea what was in the stuff, just that the guy at GNC told him it would help them bulk up.

Ortiz said that once 2004 rolled around and the testing program was going in place he stopped taking supplements or at least became more educated and careful about what he was taking. I don't find it that hard to believe that he could have come home one day and thrown everything he had out and would become more careful about what he took.

[SoxFan234]

I guess I'm an idiot because I actually thought the whole thing sounded pretty credible to me. I thought Weiner was very good. It was news to me that there are apparently 3 different numbers going around, the 104 on the government list, 96 possible positives of which 83 were confirmed. It was also news to me that those were test results not individual players. So one guy could tested positive multiple times and he takes up 2 or 3 of the 83. I didn't realize before that there were 13 tests the union would have "contested" as false positives but since the 5% threshold had already been reached they didn't bother to because this survey was just to determine + or - 5%.

I know a bunch of guys at my job that used to be gym rats that would be mixing powered shit with water or gatorade all the time and they had no idea what was in the stuff, just that the guy at GNC told him it would help them bulk up.

Ortiz said that once 2004 rolled around and the testing program was going in place he stopped taking supplements or at least became more educated and careful about what he was taking. I don't find it that hard to believe that he could have come home one day and thrown everything he had out and would become more careful about what he took.

Agreed. What he said is definitely plausible. He hasn't tested positive since the drug testing program started, so really, big fucking deal.

[PedroKsBambino]

Supposedly, the union plan was to challenge the tests in order to get the overall positive number below the 5% threshhold which triggered the 2004-forward testing program.

It is that decision which kept the samples and lists alive, as they were originally supposed to be destroyed quickly. In the interim, while that was going on, the Feds got the list and samples and now it's being leaked out by lawyers.

So if I were a player I'd be running the union leadership out over this and considering suing them for legal malpractice. I don't think they'd win that suit, mind you, but I do think the union approach here was beyond misguided and (due to bad facts) has blown up in their faces in an unimaginably harmful way

[E5 Yaz]

Red Sox statement has some strong backing evidence for Ortiz:

As important, Major League Baseball has informed us that David has been tested every year since the implementation of the MLB/MLBPA program in 2004 and, under the program, he has been tested 15 or more different times. We have been informed that, during this entire 6-year period (2004-2009), David has never tested positive for a steroid.

Also during this period, David voluntarily submitted himself to the Olympic standard of drug tests administered in connection with the World Baseball Classics in 2006 and in 2009. We are informed he did not test positive for steroids under those tests either, and he participated actively in both international tournaments.

http://www.boston.co...as/extra_bases/

Edited by E5 Yaz, 08 August 2009 - 01:03 PM.

[ronald47]

The more annoying thing about this whole mess is how every player, for valid legal reasons or not, decide to not be forthcoming when shit hits the fan so to speak. Bonds, as I recall, didn't say much of anything. Palmeiro, McGwire, etc went the lying/misinformation route, Sosa forgot how to speak English, Manny didn't say anything of substance, Ortiz didn't say anything of substance, and A-Rod makes a three-year-old getting caught for stealing a cookie from the cookie jar sound more credible. Actually, the funny part is that A-Rod arguably comes off as the most transparent guy in the group despite the fact that I'm absolutely sure he still hasn't told nearly the whole story.

Just get all the information out there and let us move on with our lives.

[E5 Yaz]

Just get all the information out there and let us move on with our lives.

But that's the point. getting the information out there won't do this, because some people involved are likely to face the possibility of legal action. This won't end with the release of the names.

[Varitekstheman]

Also during this period, David voluntarily submitted himself to the Olympic standard of drug tests administered in connection with the World Baseball Classics in 2006 and in 2009. We are informed he did not test positive for steroids under those tests either, and he participated actively in both international tournaments.

Am I mistaken or doesn't the Olympic standard drug tests include HGH?

[dcmissle]

Since this is a game thread ...

Screw this. Really. When is this team going to stop being a punching bag on and off the field?

I know how Billy B -- NOT Beane -- would use this: close the clubhouse doors boys. It's us against the world, and we're going to lay waste to MF'ers. Your only friends are in this clubhouse.

And if you're only of those guys who feel obligated to trot out the "baseball isn't football" line a half dozen times a season > screw you too. This is a game thread.

[ronald47]

But that's the point. getting the information out there won't do this, because some people involved are likely to face the possibility of legal action. This won't end with the release of the names.

Then they deal with that when it happens. I know it's not realistic, but I'm just trying to think ideally for once. The whole thing is a fiasco.

[Dogman2]

Under the guidelines of the over the counter stuff anyone can buy from GNC, I would have tested positives for PED's and I never have taken steroids. I never bought Andro.

[smastroyin]

I don't think they face legal ramifications because that list is the only evidence and it was obtained illegally. This is why these guys are not going to self-incriminate, because there is literally no case against them pending the outcome of the illegal search and seizure.

[E5 Yaz]

I don't think they face legal ramifications because that list is the only evidence and it was obtained illegally. This is why these guys are not going to self-incriminate, because there is literally no case against them pending the outcome of the illegal search and seizure.

You're right. I worded it poorly.

[mabrowndog]

Why didn't he tell Sean McAdam a week ago he hadn't used steroids? I'll tell you fucking why.

a) because NO ONE is under ANY obligation to tell Sean McAdam ANYTHING; and
b) because if Ortiz had been so dumb as to say such a thing before he knew what he'd tested positive for, he'd look a like a prize idiot when that leaked, too.

You don't wipe your ass in public unless absolutely necessary. Some fat harp reporter's feigned indignance does not count as "absolutely necessary."

You're absolutely right. But surely you must admit that such posturing, while in keeping with his legal rights, does nothing to eliminate the cloud of suspicion that still hovers over him -- especially in light of his brash and bold "ban 'em for a year!!" statement earlier this year.

An avowal that Ortiz never took steroids would not seem to fit in with that strategy unless it is based on some actual knowledge either of a) what Ortiz actually took or b) what Ortiz can get away with lying about not taking.

Agreed. And this is why the cloud of public doubt still hovers. Ortiz was playing the "I don't know" and "I can't remember" cards concurrently, yet still proffered an unequivocal denial of steroid use. It just doesn't add up. He told us he'd give us answers, and after huddling with the union and his own legal advisors, he's now clamming up. He may well want to come clea, but he's attempting to be clever, which is what the union and his lawyers want, but he's failing miserably. Right now I see a lot of parallels between how Ortiz and McGwire approached their public posturing, but the biggest difference is that McGwire never offered his thoughts on how steroid users should be punished.

What I think I think about this "list":
1) MLB is trying to cleanse its own image essentially throwing players to the wolves without allowing those players the full means to defend themselves;
2) The players' union (as opposed to the players themselves or certainly the particular players identified) is going along with it because they know baseball has/had a PED problem and this seems like the easiest way out.

3) The posturing by both MLB and the union has been a massive shell game, one more complicated and complex than the computer program that manages aviation traffic for the FAA, and more confusing than "Who's On First?" being played on 1,000 different stereos at 1,000 different speeds and delay intervals.

Edited by mabrowndog, 08 August 2009 - 01:16 PM.

[BoredViewer]

Papi wasn't entirely forthcoming.

I believe he knowingly took some stuff that if not specifically outlawed in baseball at the time he took it, was illegal in the U.S..

[PlayerDevelopmentMachine]

It just doesn't add up. He told us he'd give us answers, and after huddling with the union and his own legal advisors, he's now clamming up.

How is he "clamming up"? What other answers are you looking for? The actual supplement that led to his name being listed? If the answer you're looking for is for him to admit steroid use and he never touched steroids then what else can he say?

[ronald47]

Unfair or not, everyone involved in the steroids fiasco has been treated with suspicion and Ortiz will be no different. If this really was the results of supplements or whatnot then, well, he should have been more careful.

3) The posturing by both MLB and the union has been a massive shell game, one more complicated and complex than the computer program that manages aviation traffic for the FAA, and more confusing than "Who's On First?" being played on 1,000 different stereos at 1,000 different speeds and delay intervals.

I know this is a digression, but this absolutely needs to be done by someone in the future cause it's a fantastic idea.

Edited by ronald47, 08 August 2009 - 01:22 PM.

[BoredViewer]

How is he "clamming up"? What other answers are you looking for? The actual supplement that led to his name being listed? If the answer you're looking for is for him to admit steroid use and he never touched steroids then what else can he say?

He could detail his workout programs.

Did he take a shake after every meal? Did he inject himself with something once a week? Did he take pills? What were the things like he got in the mail? Liquids? Powders? Creams?

Did he ever buy things in the DR? Who suggested these things to him?


There are sooooo many questions that don't require Papi to remember the names of specific 'drugs' that he could answer... it's simply not plausible that he 'forgot.'

Edited by BoredViewer, 08 August 2009 - 01:25 PM.

[irinmike]

Shell game my ass, this whole soap opera is getting tedious and silly. If a guy took supplements in 2002-2003 before a drug policy was formally instituted but since has tested negative 15 plus times, what else do you want? It is what it is and players in that era were looking for an edge, as athletes in every competitive sport were. The league has addressed the issue and instituted a policy. Those who test positive for banned substances currently, are hammered. Is it not time to put this soap opera behind us and get on with the business of making the MLB playoff tournament eight?

[ronald47]

Shell game my ass, this whole soap opera is getting tedious and silly. If a guy took supplements in 2002-2003 before a drug policy was formally instituted but since has tested negative 15 plus times, what else do you want? It is what it is and players in that era were looking for an edge, as athletes in every competitive sport were. The league has addressed the issue and instituted a policy. Those who test positive for banned substances currently, are hammered. Is it not time to put this soap opera behind us and get on with the business of making the MLB playoff tournament eight?

I agree with you but it's not going to happen, and no one should be outraged if Ortiz gets the same treatment as everyone else.

Though really, no one really gives a shit about A-Rod or Tejada or Giambi anymore so I guess all that's needed is some time for this mess to blow over.

[PlayerDevelopmentMachine]

He could detail his workout programs.

Did he take a shake after every meal? Did he inject himself with something once a week? Did he take pills? What were the things like he got in the mail? Liquids? Powders? Creams?

Did he ever buy things in the DR? Who suggested these things to him?

The reporters had ample opportunity to ask him anything. I wanted a reporter to ask if he ever injected himself with anything (steroid or otherwise) and they never did. I thought that from a really tough spot he did the best he could considering the union's legal issues and not being able to tell him why he was on the list.

[vyrago]

Kinda lame. If he was taking supplements that would come up positive for steroids, he must have known which one because he obviously stopped taking them, hence never testing positive after that. He should know which ones he had to stop taking and be able to tell us.

Was he told or was anyone told that he tested positive for steroids? Are all PEDs steroids?

[teddywingman]

I wouldn't be suprised if Ortiz was advised: "whatever you do, don't mention the specific names of any supplements that you took." Legal reasons and all...

[vyrago]

Shell game my ass, this whole soap opera is getting tedious and silly. If a guy took supplements in 2002-2003 before a drug policy was formally instituted but since has tested negative 15 plus times, what else do you want? It is what it is and players in that era were looking for an edge, as athletes in every competitive sport were. The league has addressed the issue and instituted a policy. Those who test positive for banned substances currently, are hammered. Is it not time to put this soap opera behind us and get on with the business of making the MLB playoff tournament eight?

It won't be put to rest so long as assclowns like the two dimwits I just heard on EEI get to pontificate. They don't even seem to understand what Weiner or Ortiz said, but they're not letting that little fact get in the way of their bumbleheaded opinions.

[PlayerDevelopmentMachine]

Most telling to me is how the Union is now coming out and doing a press conference alongside Ortiz (and not for Manny who was leaked the same day), when the other players leaked from the list were left to deal with it mostly on their own. Especially considering that they know the test results. Sorry, call me a homer but I believe.

[vyrago]

wow 15 tests since 2003 and never positive

Plus the WBC tests.

[pokey_reese]

Since this is a game thread ...

Screw this. Really. When is this team going to stop being a punching bag on and off the field?

I know how Billy B -- NOT Beane -- would use this: close the clubhouse doors boys. It's us against the world, and we're going to lay waste to MF'ers. Your only friends are in this clubhouse.

And if you're only of those guys who feel obligated to trot out the "baseball isn't football" line a half dozen times a season > screw you too. This is a game thread.

Billy Bulger? You want the people who leak this list to get shot?

[E5 Yaz]

Billy Bulger? You want the people who leak this list to get shot?

Billy Bulger is the former politician and UMass president. "Whitey" Bulger's first name is James.