215 replies to this topic

[Gash Prex]

i don't think weiner wouldn't be doing himself any favors professionally for the MLPA, or for his bar card by going on with David and letting him talk about never taking steroids if he knows he's on the list for taking steroids

[Yazdog8]

And Manny did NOT test positive this year. He got bagged for having a prescription for something that is used as a masking agent.

I stand corrected. It's really hard to test for specific steroids with a urine test. Even harder to test for steriods you don't even know about (like the cream and the clear were for a long, long time).

[ToeKneeArmAss]

No comment on how well Ortiz or Weiner are handling this.

But I will say it's pretty Kafkaesque to be declared guilty in the press by anonymous sources, and then not have access to the evidence on which those accusations were based.

[D Jack's Dome]

Ortiz: "I have been tested 15 times and twice for the World Baseball Classic and I have never been tested positive for steroids."

HGH...its a helluva drug.

[jcd0805]

They just did. Ortiz evoked the Sargent Shultz defense. "I know nothing..........."

This is beyond comical.

Agreed, they asked him specifically about Andro and he couldn't answer yes or no, I think you know definitively if you took that particular supplement or not.

[joyofsox]

wtf flo?

say this:

"in 2003, i was taking x , y and z -- and something from one or more of those -- maybe f g h -- resulted in a positive test."

jesus -- come on, man.

...

has no idea if he took andro

...

what ortiz is NOT saying is making more of a statement than his actual words.

[BoSoxFink]

Yeah but then how did he know which one to stop taking so he wouldn't continue to test positive???

He probably stopped taking them all. It wasn't worth it to continue taking any of them and put yourself at risk

[Yazdog8]

Bullshit. He knows what he's doing and saying. Like Sosa before Congress, he's hiding behind the "no habla englais" approach.

This is not even close to the Sosa dog and pony show.

[Sprowl]

Michael Weiner needs some serious hair/eyebrow grooming.

Lawyers are in the business of making their clients look good in comparison.

[SoxFan58]

i don't think weiner wouldn't be doing himself any favors professionally for the MLPA, or for his bar card by going on with David and letting him talk about never taking steroids if he knows he's on the list for taking steroids

He was on the list for performance enhancing drugs, of which steroids is only a part. It also sounds as though the message is he never knowingly took steroids. He admitted to the supplement use.

[graffam198]

Sure could. I use to take Andro poppers before I would go to the gym.

You should be suspended from game threads for a year! -Ortiz

[joyofsox]

To be fair the question was do you know what made you tese positive? He may have been taking all kinds of supplements but he doesn't know which one made him test positive, it would be hard to remember exactly what you were taking at that time 6 years ago, I am sure.

he has had a week to think about it.

name a few, he must know ONE OF THEM

[jcd0805]

He probably stopped taking them all. It wasn't worth it to continue taking any of them and put yourself at risk

Oh c'mon he was just randomly shoving so many pills down his throat every day and then just stopped? These are professional athletes, you cannot tell me they were just sticking crap down their throat without any regard to how it was going to help/damage their bodies, their bodies that hold the key to them making millions or working at a gas station.

[BostonJack42]

Question: "Would you like to see the full 2003 list come out?"

[SoxFan58]

They just did. Ortiz evoked the Sargent Shultz defense. "I know nothing..........."

This is beyond comical.

What would have made you happy? If Ortiz came out and said "I took steroids but I don't anymore"? Seems anything less than that would make his comments "comical" to you.

[Yazdog8]

Well, that was a lot of sound and fury, but essentially no new information and a lot of hiding behind the union.

[BigMike]

Basically he is going with the. I am a complete moron defense.

You are a professional athlete, and he have no idea what drugs (er supplements) he was taking as a professional athlete? Most have dieticians. Most players do things like keep notes. If he doesn't know what he was taking, then how did he know what helped him, and what didn't?

Did he walk into GNC every 2 weeks, and just walk over to the supplement department, and buy whatever was on sale that week?

[Rocco Graziosa]

he has had a week to think about it.

name a few, he must know ONE OF THEM

"I KNOW NOTHEEEEEEEEEEEEEN!!!"

[jcd0805]

What would have made you happy? If Ortiz came out and said "I took steroids but I don't anymore"? Seems anything less than that would make his comments "comical" to you.

No, but if you use the supplement defense you should have an idea which supplements are now banned, especially has was stated above, he's had a week to think about it and try to remember.

[Gash Prex]

Man i hope none of you ever sit on juries

And I really think it says something that the MLPA is so behind Ortiz's story. Seems to me the reason is that Ortiz is a different case - not defending somebody who they know took roids

Edited by Gash Prex, 08 August 2009 - 12:04 PM.

[Yazdog8]

At least he didn't use the "I was young and loosey goosey and experimenting" defense.

[Rocco Graziosa]

Well, that was a frickin joke. Wow.

[BoSoxFink]

Oh c'mon he was just randomly shoving so many pills down his throat every day and then just stopped? These are professional athletes, you cannot tell me they were just sticking crap down their throat without any regard to how it was going to help/damage their bodies, their bodies that hold the key to them making millions or working at a gas station.

I wasn't saying he was taking like 50 things. But it wouldn't surprise me if he was taking like 5-10 different supplements, and wasn't entirely sure which one created the positive test. I mean he may very well know but that is not a positive thing. I really believe they stopped taking supplements altogether before finally starting to take some again that are legal and don't have any traces of steroids in them.

[Yazdog8]

No, but if you use the supplement defense you should have an idea which supplements are now banned, especially has was stated above, he's had a week to think about it and try to remember.

Anything that contains a steriod precursor is banned...which for us is most of them. Have you ever walked into a GNC and looked at the ingredients? Most of them contain something that could get you banned by the new standards.

[BigMike]

What would have made you happy? If Ortiz came out and said "I took steroids but I don't anymore"? Seems anything less than that would make his comments "comical" to you.

He could have walked in with a notebook that basically had a list of what he had taken in 2003, and pointed out that 3 of the supplements he took had been known to trigger false positives.

It still wouldn't prove he didn't juice, but at least it would have proved he was somewhat serious about his profession, and would have given him real plausible deniability

[jcd0805]

Basically he is going with the. I am a complete moron defense.

You are a professional athlete, and he have no idea what drugs (er supplements) he was taking as a professional athlete? Most have dieticians. Most players do things like keep notes. If he doesn't know what he was taking, then how did he know what helped him, and what didn't?

Did he walk into GNC every 2 weeks, and just walk over to the supplement department, and buy whatever was on sale that week?

No, he opened packages from complete strangers that were mailed to him and then took the stuff inside just because

[Rocco Graziosa]

What would have made you happy? If Ortiz came out and said "I took steroids but I don't anymore"? Seems anything less than that would make his comments "comical" to you.

I said when ARoid came out with his defense, it was at least detailed. He told us what he took, when he took it, how he took it, and where he got it. Ortiz did NONE of that.

[Gash Prex]

Well, that was a lot of sound and fury, but essentially no new information and a lot of hiding behind the union.

Hiding behind the union? how about a court sealed order? that if you violate you go to JAIL and get your bar card revoked ? what exactly could they say???

[BostonJack42]

And I really think it says something that the MLPA is so behind Ortiz's story. Seems to me the reason is that Ortiz is a different case - not defending somebody who they know took roids

I was just going to point this out. My thinking was that if they saw the list and they know that Papi wasn't involved like a Clemens or a Bonds or a Sosa, it would be a good thing to come to his defense as much as the confidentiality and court orders would let them.

[JulE6]

Well, that was a frickin joke. Wow.

Dude. We get it. You've been beating this drum for two weeks now, you're not adding anything relevant or new. Give it up.

None of what Ortiz said today can be taken as a huge surprise -- in my mind it was highly unlikely he would come out and admit to knowingly using anything, so the "I took so many things, anything could have done it" defense makes sense. It was pretty sad seeing him answer the "why didn't you say it right away" question, and it makes you wonder a little bit. At this point we'll just have to wait and see

[Ed Hillel]

I can't believe people find it so hard to believe that athletes used to go into GNC and ask the guy working there what the best supplement was for getting bigger, and bought it.

And why would they take notes on it? Nobody gave a shit back then. This isn't about Ortiz, btw, it's about how unfair this whole process has been to the players. Not the current one, the old one, including this list.

[Follow33]

And Manny did NOT test positive this year. He got bagged for having a prescription for something that is used as a masking agent.

It's entirely possible my memory is crap but for clarification Manny got suspended for fertility drug which he didn't test for at all. The investigation that turned up the prescription for it was triggered by elevated (and if I recall synthetic? after the second lab test) testosterone levels.

[BigMike]

No, he opened packages from complete strangers that were mailed to him and then took the stuff inside just because

That was the part that completely got me.

If he admits to taking stuff that was mailed to him unsolicited, then he is admitting has no idea if he took illegal steroids or not

[Jody Reeds Well]

Does anyone know what actually triggers a positive test?

[BoSoxFink]

I can't believe people find it so hard to believe that athletes used to go into GNC and ask the guy working there what the best supplement was for getting bigger, and bought it.

And why would they take notes on it? Nobody gave a shit back then. This isn't about Ortiz, btw, it's about how unfair this whole process has been to the players. Not the current one, the old one, including this list.

This is exactly what I am saying. I am sure Ortiz wasn't just shoving pills down his throat. But he would go into GNC and buy something on a recomindation and use it. There was no testing back then and if something was dangerous, someone would have told him, but other than that he had no reason not to be using them.

[Reggie's Racquet]

No comment on how well Ortiz or Weiner are handling this.

But I will say it's pretty Kafkaesque to be declared guilty in the press by anonymous sources, and then not have access to the evidence on which those accusations were based.

Finally and intelligent and literate post in this thread. My Yankee friends (and I use that word loosely) were all over me this past week and I pointed out to them exactly what was said above and what I have gleaned from the press release and this press conference. The press and the public consistently jump to conclusions about things they know little or nothing about. All you have to do is read the posts in the trade deadline threads on this board to confim that assertion.

[ronald47]

I can't believe people find it so hard to believe that athletes used to go into GNC and ask the guy working there what the best supplement was for getting bigger, and bought it.

And why would they take notes on it? Nobody gave a shit back then. This isn't about Ortiz, btw, it's about how unfair this whole process has been to the players. Not the current one, the old one, including this list.

I think the whole steroid debacle doesn't matter in the long run and I agree with your logic in principle, I'm just amused that I remember seeing absolutely none of it during the whole A-Rod affair.

As for this press conference, it tells us nothing, confirms nothing, and probably shouldn't be referred to as a confirmation of one thing or the other. Which is about what I expected. The only thing people can do now is wait.

[Sprowl]

"I KNOW NOTHEEEEEEEEEEEEEN!!!"

It was LeBeau's fault: he put PEDs in my strudel.


Papi has reached the Lawyers, Guns and Money stage of his career. He'll be hiding in Honduras soon, a desperate man.

[SoxFan58]

I said when ARoid came out with his defense, it was at least detailed. He told us what he took, when he took it, how he took it, and where he got it. Ortiz did NONE of that.

After, of course, ARod went on 60 Minutes and said he never took steroids. But I digress.

Like others have said in this thread, there are an incredible amount of supplements he could have gotten in 2003 that could have triggered the false positive. I suppose he could have simply listed all of them he took in 2003, but since that was six years ago I don't find it to be such a stretch that he didn't remember every one.

Look, I don't think Ortiz covered himself in glory and there are many, many questions that still need to be answered, but considering he doesn't even know what he tested positive for, and was not told he tested positive in 2004, I think he did an OK job. Far from comical, at least.

[Gash Prex]

That was the part that completely got me.

If he admits to taking stuff that was mailed to him unsolicited, then he is admitting has no idea if he took illegal steroids or not

Funny because I would normally agree with you but....

My buddy who does supplements said he ordered some stuff and he got a bunch of free samples. Thought he would try one and said it made him feel like he was on crack but he could barely remember the exact name. Now ask him 7 years from now what exactly he took and see what kind of answer he gives you.

I think the key is that he says he never took roids, and the MLPA stood behind him as best as they could with a court order. Also we found some more info about the 2003 list and its not as cut and dry as people have made it out to be,

[Ed Hillel]

This is exactly what I am saying. I am sure Ortiz wasn't just shoving pills down his throat. But he would go into GNC and buy something on a recomindation and use it. There was no testing back then and if something was dangerous, someone would have told him, but other than that he had no reason not to be using them.

And, believe me, I'm sure there were plenty of guys taking needs and sticking them into their ass like Clemens. The problem is that this list, or at least the leaks, don't distinguish between the two. There is a HUGE difference between the two scenarios.

Does the list actually say what drug they tested positive for, btw? What do we even know about it?

[Mystic Merlin]

This is exactly what I am saying. I am sure Ortiz wasn't just shoving pills down his throat. But he would go into GNC and buy something on a recomindation and use it. There was no testing back then and if something was dangerous, someone would have told him, but other than that he had no reason not to be using them.

Assuming this is true (and it is far more plausible than some skeptics are giving credit for), why would Ortiz admit to using any specific banned substance? If he doesn't know, why would he do that?

I'm certainly not 100% convinced he's telling the truth, but his demeanor and cadence didn't come across as deceptive to me; similarly, his defense has some plausibility, even if others have used it as a false shield in the past.

EDIT - Also, if he was truly playing the ignorance card, why would he definitively deny using a steroid? That doesn't add up.

Edited by Mystic Merlin, 08 August 2009 - 12:16 PM.

[yeomen]

"David, after you initial test in 2003 were you advised by anyone to stop taking supplements"

"No, like I said, I started listen about the situation that the league was going through, that's how I started educating myself and putting attention to everything that has gone on, and then we got that drug policy coming out in 2004, that it was some supplement that players were using that you are not allowed to use anymore, so I follow it from there"

(Umms and Ahhs omitted for fairness of language barrier)

Now how do we reconcile the statement, that once the drug policy was put into affect and certain supplements that players (obviously including him) we not longer allowed with the statement that he has no idea how or why he could have tested positive and that he has no idea what he took. If he know he took a supplement that was allowed in 2003 and not in 2004, why on earth would he not simply say that. It just makes not sense. Language barriers are one thing, but I know he could easily communicate the exact same thing that Arroyo did last week, that I took andro supplements, Loved em, and thats what it must have been.

[D Jack's Dome]

In defense of David Ortiz (who I believe took more then just supplements) I will play devils advocate and say that I know plenty of people--and these aren't professional athletes--that wouldn't be able to list what they took back in 2003 when they were trying to pack on muscle. Could they have mentioned some things? Sure. But I had friends taking 20-25 different pills/shakes a day. And that stuff was just from GNC/weight lifting magazines. Back then it was different. Knowing what we do now, we know the damage it wreaks on the body.

I can guarantee that more then half of the things that were ingested into his body in 2003 aren't even in production in 2009, and he's going to remember what they were? No. I can't even count the number of times I would lift with friends and a conversation would transpire that went something like...

"Man, this shit I'm taking gives me so much energy. I jumped my bench from 280 to 315 over the past 3 weeks"

"The fuck is it?"

"Its XYZ from GNC. Its got creatine/nitrogen/XXX amino acid so that it gets into your system quicker and stays their longer"

"...oh..."

Don't forget in 2003, none of this stuff was illegal. Take as much as you can, and watch the weight jump.

Now, back to reality, I believe Papi took steroids. I believe he took--and is still taking---HGH. But I also believe him when he says he took so many supplements that hes not sure which one triggered a positive test. Ii bet you that he can list the supplements he was on, but why implicate himself any further then he has to?

[Ed Hillel]

I think the whole steroid debacle doesn't matter in the long run and I agree with your logic in principle, I'm just amused that I remember seeing absolutely none of it during the whole A-Rod affair.

As for this press conference, it tells us nothing, confirms nothing, and probably shouldn't be referred to as a confirmation of one thing or the other. Which is about what I expected. The only thing people can do now is wait.

I agree with you completely. I was partially guilty of it myself, but I was more interested in his complete social awkwardness than the steroids. Other than Pedro, I really don't care.

[jcd0805]

Funny because I would normally agree with you but....

My buddy who does supplements said he ordered some stuff and he got a bunch of free samples. Thought he would try one and said it made him feel like he was on crack but he could barely remember the exact name. Now ask him 7 years from now what exactly he took and see what kind of answer he gives you.

Is your friend a professional athlete who depends on his body to make millions and has access to drs/nutritionists to make sure whatever he is going to take won't harm his body?

[jdubbya]

Dude. We get it. You've been beating this drum for two weeks now, you're not adding anything relevant or new. Give it up.

None of what Ortiz said today can be taken as a huge surprise -- in my mind it was highly unlikely he would come out and admit to knowingly using anything, so the "I took so many things, anything could have done it" defense makes sense. It was pretty sad seeing him answer the "why didn't you say it right away" question, and it makes you wonder a little bit. At this point we'll just have to wait and see

There's no way the Union wants these guys copping to anything or talking off the cuff about the supplement/steroids isssue. Ortiz said nothing until the Union told him what to say. He also took a page from Sammy Sosa and was intentionally 'poor-spoken' to help mask some of the sting of the press conference. All in all, it was exactly what I expected. And I'm not looking for anything more.

[mabrowndog]

Man i hope none of you ever sit on juries

I've sat on 4 juries, in 4 different states, and was chairperson on 3 of them.

If you can't objectively determine that Ortiz's responses were designed to be evasive, and that he was advised to stay away from certain key words, then you're blind as a bat. The union is CLEARLY hiding behind the court protections, and has carefully researched what other information any possible "leakers" might have had access to. They are CLEARLY posturing their response around the "many supplements were legal and not banned by MLB back in 2003" defense as a means of creating more doubt and obfuscation.

Papi was CLEARLY told not to acknowledge any specific supplements by name. If you don't believe that, you're an idiot.

And I really think it says something that the MLPA is so behind Ortiz's story.

Yeah. It says "Hey, we can't keep avoiding the microscope any longer. These leaks could bury us. So Let's come out with something that further clouds the issue without directly implicating the player. We've got a week to work on this. The whole world loves Big Papi, so now's our chance to propr him up in front of cameras and capitalize on public sympathies."

THAT'S what it says.

[BostonJack42]

Does the list actually say what drug they tested positive for, btw? What do we even know about it?

I think the lawyer said that the list did state what they tested positive for but that at this time, because of the court seal, the player did not have access to what they tested positive for. Which is why I think they came to Papi's defense here. Knowing that he didn't take steroids - maybe something less evil like Andro or the like. Which was legal at the time.

[D Jack's Dome]

He could have walked in with a notebook that basically had a list of what he had taken in 2003, and pointed out that 3 of the supplements he took had been known to trigger false positives.

Again, why implicate yourself? You name three things you took, and the samples get released and none of the things you said were what you tested positive for...now what? You're a liar again? Why bother?