291 replies to this topic

[Cuzittt]

I like this trade. I don't love it... but that has nothing to do with the prospects going away, I'm just not completely in love with Martinez. But, he is an upgrade... and I am quite OK with the parts going to Cleveland.

Masterson could be very good if he can figure out how to get Lefties out. He is still only 24. Hagadone lost a year due to TJ and is already 23. As good as he can be, if he is a starter, he's at least 2 years away. Price is 22, has had some trouble in High-A and is a few years away.

Bard has already replaced Masterson in the Pen. Bowden, who I think gets really underrated here, is doing very well in AAA, has already had his major league cup of coffee and is only 2 months older than Price (22 years old).

We kept Buchholz (who we need right now). We kept Bowden. We kept Bard. We kept Reddick and Lowrie (who we need right now). We kept our best younger prospects (Kelly, Westmoreland).

We got better now. We have the prospects to be better in the future. There is nothing not to like about this trade.

[koufax32]

I assume this means we should say our goodbyes to Mr. Kottoras. My best guess for lineup construction now...

vs. most RHP

CF Ellsbury
2B Pedroia
1B or 3B Youkilis
DH Ortiz
C Martinez
LF Bay
RF Drew
3B or 1B Lowell/Kotchman
SS Lowrie

vs. LHP

CF Ellsbury
2B Pedroia
3B Youkilis
1B Martinez
DH Ortiz
LF Bay
RF Drew
C Varitek
SS Lowrie

That's still alot of people for a limited number of at-bats.

[mfried]

So I assume this means Buchholz stays up the rest of the year, right? In the rotation until Wake gets back, then either him, Wake or Smoltz become the longman?

Smoltz is really a good fit to be a long man: he throws strikes and won't be prey to wild pitches, errors, mental vagaries.

[Foulkey Reese]

V-Mart was going to be Wakefield's catcher at All-Star Game, telling Wake after the game "I'll get you next time". He warmed him up in OF.

Thrilled that we still have Bard and Buchholz.

[RedOctober3829]

The thing to do will be to DFA Kottaras and get whatever you can for him. I can't see him going back to Pawtucket if he doesn't get picked up creating a major logjam at catcher with Wagner and Brown there.

The best part of the day is to keep Bard on the roster. He is too big a part of the roster now to deal him.

[Bongorific]

We kept Buchholz (who we need right now). We kept Bowden. We kept Bard. We kept Reddick and Lowrie (who we need right now). We kept our best younger prospects (Kelly, Westmoreland).

We got better now. We have the prospects to be better in the future. There is nothing not to like about this trade.

This sums it up perfectly Cuz. The Sox didn't solve their catching problems going forward (it's not like they got Mauer), but they got a guy who consistently puts up an .850 OPS and doesn't strike out much. That's an above average 1B and a very good C. More importantly, he helps at two positions of need; catcher and allowing Lowell time to sit (and even Ortiz too). Most importantly, the Sox didn't give up their top prospects. Yes, they did give up good prospects. I like Masteron a lot and hope he has a nice career. Hagadone could turn out to be a very good starter or excellent reliever. The Sox have a wonderful advantage in that their farm is stocked with pitching and today they used that advantage perfectly by using their strength to improve their area of weakness. To do that without giving up your best potential future stars is a great accomplishment.

[Soxfan in Fla]

The first 5-6 pages of this thread when everyone thought it was I am an Idiot are hysterical.

That said I like this trade. Masterson was always behind Clay and Bowden as a starter and had been surpassed by Bard as a reliever. Masterson is a solid pitcher with some current flaws. The other two seem like players the Sox could do without over the long haul.

While Adrian Gonzalez was the preference I think VMart will do fine for the Sox the rest of this season and next season. Reduces Tek's playing time which is a good thing when you consider how bad his arm is. Solid bat as well.

Overall the Sox did well at the deadline.

[E5 Yaz]

The first 5-6 pages of this thread when everyone thought it was I am an Idiot are hysterical.

Speaks for itself.

[BoSoxFink]

The first 5-6 pages of this thread when everyone thought it was I am an Idiot are hysterical.

That said I like this trade. Masterson was always behind Clay and Bowden as a starter and had been surpassed by Bard as a reliever. Masterson is a solid pitcher with some current flaws. The other two seem like players the Sox could do without over the long haul.

While Adrian Gonzalez was the preference I think VMart will do fine for the Sox the rest of this season and next season. Reduces Tek's playing time which is a good thing when you consider how bad his arm is. Solid bat as well.

Overall the Sox did well at the deadline.

That sums up the 5-6 pages beautifully, thank you word filter.

[Beomoose]

Speaks for itself.

Best word filter ever.

[Omar's Wacky Neighbor]

Best word filter ever.

And thanks to Theo's hardline stand today, we can still get some use out of it for the foreseeable future.

[sibpin]

The thing to do will be to DFA Kottaras and get whatever you can for him. I can't see him going back to Pawtucket if he doesn't get picked up creating a major logjam at catcher with Wagner and Brown there.

The best part of the day is to keep Bard on the roster. He is too big a part of the roster now to deal him.

Well, if Kottaras was going to be traded for anything, it would have been between 2:30 and 4:00 today. His being DFA'd after the deadline would mean either he's being claimed by another team for free, or he would be traded for someone who has next to no upside whatsoever.

The fact that he was not traded by the deadline tells me it is not 100% that Kottaras is waived and then claimed by another team. He can still stay on the roster with Kotchman going down or no reliever replacing Masterson.

[Harry Hooper]

No complaints here as I've been driving the Victor Martinez bandwagon since last winter. Would have been nice to get him sooner, but the price would have been higher then. Nice work by the FO.


For most games:

Lowell starts at 3B
Youkilis starts at 1B
Martinez starts at C


If Sox can grab a lead, after 5-6 innings rotate into the prevent:

Youks moves to 3B
Martinez moves to 1B (or Kotchman in at 1B)
Varitek comes in as C

Add in some additional starts at 1B for Martinez (with Youks at 3B and Lowell at DH), and it will all work out.

Edited by Harry Hooper, 31 July 2009 - 06:09 PM.

[paulftodd]

Good move by the Red Sox FO.

For most games:

Lowell starts at 3B
Youkilis starts at 1B
Martinez starts at C


If Sox can grab a lead, after 5-6 innings rotate into the prevent:

Youks moves to 3B
Martinez moves to 1B (or Kotchman in at 1B)
Varitek comes in as C

Add in some additional starts at 1B for Martinez (with Youks at 3B and Lowell at DH), and it will all work out.

Martinez is unlikely to start most games at C IMO. He might get 1/3 at 1B, 1/3 at C and 1/6 at DH (mainly on the road where Papi does Jack) and 1/6 days off. It's going to take time for him to learn the pitching staff and he doesn't have Teks intangibles so. The FB has him ranked at 34 out of 35 at adjusted earned runs saved over 6 years. Tek is 33rd but thats because the rotation with Wake makes comparisons with the backup catchers problematic,

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

Martinez is unlikely to start most games at C IMO. He might get 1/3 at 1B, 1/3 at C and 1/6 at DH (mainly on the road where Papi does Jack) and 1/6 days off. It's going to take time for him to learn the pitching staff and he doesn't have Teks intangibles so. The FB has him ranked at 34 out of 35 at adjusted earned runs saved over 6 years. Tek is 33rd but thats because the rotation with Wake makes comparisons with the backup catchers problematic,

You may be right that it won't happen immediately, but I sincerely hope that Martinez's time at C gets ramped up over time as, initial adjustments aside, the team will undoubtedly be better that way.

[KiltedFool]

Good move by the Red Sox FO.



Martinez is unlikely to start most games at C IMO. He might get 1/3 at 1B, 1/3 at C and 1/6 at DH (mainly on the road where Papi does Jack) and 1/6 days off. It's going to take time for him to learn the pitching staff and he doesn't have Teks intangibles so. The FB has him ranked at 34 out of 35 at adjusted earned runs saved over 6 years. Tek is 33rd but thats because the rotation with Wake makes comparisons with the backup catchers problematic,

Like hell he doesn't. Wait and see.

Treat Victor well, he's a hell of a player and a damn good catcher. Strong in handling pitchers, blocking balls in the dirt, blocking the plate. Average arm is his only knock, and Tek's state of cooked makes Vic look like Pudge in his prime in comparison.

People keep yammering against his catching because of his time at 1B, managing to ignore the fact (noted multiple times) that he was at 1B to keep him from wearing down and keep his bat in the lineup. That and Martinez+Shoppach > Martinez+Garko.

The main way Vic doesn't catch the bulk of the games from here on out is Francona's deference to his veterans, Vic's a better player and a better catcher.

e:unclear wording

Edited by KiltedFool, 31 July 2009 - 08:09 PM.

[Worst Trade Evah]

I would gladly have seen Buchholz go in a deal for Halladay or Cliff Lee, but for some reason throwing in Hagadone in a deal for Martinez is leaving me cold. How many left-handers have his potential? I just don't love Victor Martinez. He'll spell Varitek and Lowell for a year and half at a level of offense that's good but not great, with crappy defense? What is that really worth?

[86spike]

Like hell he doesn't. Wait and see.

Treat Victor well, he's a hell of a player and a damn good catcher. Strong in handling pitchers, blocking balls in the dirt, blocking the plate. Average arm is his only knock, and Tek's state of cooked makes Vic look like Pudge in his prime in comparison.

People keep yammering against his catching because of his time at 1B, managing to ignore the fact (noted multiple times) that he was at 1B to keep him from wearing down and keep his bat in the lineup. That and Martinez+Shoppach > Martinez+Garko.

The main way Vic doesn't catch the bulk of the games from here on out is Francona's deference to his veterans, Vic's a better player and a better catcher.

e:unclear wording

I've been listening to you KF and I thank you for your Ohio insight.

VM is not the turd behind the plate that most of you think he is! I guarantee you he will be a better option at C than the 68 year legs of Saint Varitek.

This was a great return for what Theo gave up.

[86spike]

I would gladly have seen Buchholz go in a deal for Halladay or Cliff Lee, but for some reason throwing in Hagadone in a deal for Martinez is leaving me cold. How many left-handers have his potential? I just don't love Victor Martinez. He'll spell Varitek and Lowell for a year and half at a level of offense that's good but not great, with crappy defense? What is that really worth?

VM is not here to "spell Lowell and Varitek"!

He is a starter and will log at least 90% of games in the starting lineup.

Lowell and Tek will spell him.

And again, he' not a bad defender at C!

[Jed Zeppelin]

VM is not here to "spell Lowell and Varitek"!

He is a starter and will log at least 90% of games in the starting lineup.

Lowell and Tek will spell him.

And again, he' not a bad defender at C!

Even the average arm doesn't matter. Tek not only can't throw runners out, he never even throws down anymore. If VMart at least does what Tek does behind the plate, it will be an upgrade because of the bat.

[j44thor]

I would gladly have seen Buchholz go in a deal for Halladay or Cliff Lee, but for some reason throwing in Hagadone in a deal for Martinez is leaving me cold. How many left-handers have his potential? I just don't love Victor Martinez. He'll spell Varitek and Lowell for a year and half at a level of offense that's good but not great, with crappy defense? What is that really worth?

Rather simple actually, they just draft another Hagadone in 2 yrs with the 2 picks they get when VMart walks.
They turned two supplemental picks plus a 2nd rd pick (Masterson) into 1+ yrs of VMart and two picks when he walks.
You make that kind of trade 10 out of 10 times. Hagadone is 23 and hasn't pitched above Low A ball.
Masterson is a nice piece but someone you expect to be able to replace given their draft record and Price is still an unknown.
All 3 are probably destined for the bullpen with Masterson having the best chance as a starter assuming he can get lefties out.

Hagadone did have a ton of potential but hasn't been quite the same since coming back from TJ.
Essentially you hope that the next time you draft a Hagadone he doesnt' end up having TJ in his 1st full season.

[SoxFanSince57]

If I remember correctly, the rap about V-Mart's catching was his footwork and not so much his arm. Still, he doesn't throw out enough runners.

Mark Shapiro: "In my 18 years in this game, I have not had the privilege to be around a finer person, a finer teammate, a finer father, husband and friend than Vic. ... I know that he will be a friend long after his playing days and my GM days."
Indians Website

[SoxFanSince57]

Rather simple actually, they just draft another Hagadone in 2 yrs with the 2 picks they get when VMart walks.
They turned two supplemental picks plus a 2nd rd pick (Masterson) into 1+ yrs of VMart and two picks when he walks.
You make that kind of trade 10 out of 10 times. Hagadone is 23 and hasn't pitched above Low A ball.
Masterson is a nice piece but someone you expect to be able to replace given their draft record and Price is still an unknown.
All 3 are probably destined for the bullpen with Masterson having the best chance as a starter assuming he can get lefties out.

Hagadone did have a ton of potential but hasn't been quite the same since coming back from TJ.
Essentially you hope that the next time you draft a Hagadone he doesnt' end up having TJ in his 1st full season.

Fair points, but the Indians plan to stretch Masterson out and put in into the rotation this season. They see him as a starter.

You may be a little hard on Hagadone. His arm seems sound. Shapiro was talking about him hitting 99 on the gun when they scouted him recently.

[j44thor]

Fair points, but the Indians plan to stretch Masterson out and put in into the rotation this season. They see him as a starter.

You may be a little hard on Hagadone. His arm seems sound. Shapiro was talking about him hitting 99 on the gun when they scouted him recently.

Regarding Hagadone, velocity is one thing but 12BB in 25IP in Low A is another, I will add that he had 32K's so there is potential.
Again you aren't going to get VMart for free, but all things considered I see this as pretty good value.

I can see Masterson as a starter but probably not in the AL East where he has to face stacked LH lineups.
He might be a good 3-4 starter, a poor mans Derek Lowe if you will.
He just didn't fit that role on the Sox thus was likely underutilized and ultimately more valuable in trade than his current role as MDC insurance.

[Rudy Pemberton]

Defense at the catching position includes throwing out runners, but I would guess that the organization places a lot more value on Varitek's preparation, developing a game plan, calling a game, etc (those things we can't really get at but seemed to be valued). They seem to think he's been successful in that regard; obviously the major part of it is the pitchers but throwing out base runners seems fairly minimal in the grand scheme of things. I guess I just don't expect to see V-Mart starting half of the games (or more) at catcher the rest of the way. I would suspect that he gets his AB's primarily at the expense of Lowell and Ortiz; just to optimize matchups and keep Lowell fresher. Since his option is nearly a guarantee to get picked him up, playing him every day to keep him happy may not be essential (as if he were a FA to be) but obviously that remains to be seen and it will be a big test for Tito. I think the past has shown that you can keep everyone happy like this down the stretch; it's the next year when things get tricky.

[brimac]

Fair points, but the Indians plan to stretch Masterson out and put in into the rotation this season. They see him as a starter.

That's actually why it's such a logical deal. Masterson has more value to the Indians than the Red Sox because the Indians can use him as a starter whereas it was tough to see the Red Sox ever finding a fit for him in the rotation with Buchholz, Bowden and Tazawa coming along so quickly.

[EP Sox Fan]

Regarding Hagadone, velocity is one thing but 12BB in 25IP in Low A is another, I will add that he had 32K's so there is potential.
Again you aren't going to get VMart for free, but all things considered I see this as pretty good value.

I can see Masterson as a starter but probably not in the AL East where he has to face stacked LH lineups.
He might be a good 3-4 starter, a poor mans Derek Lowe if you will.
He just didn't fit that role on the Sox thus was likely underutilized and ultimately more valuable in trade than his current role as MDC insurance.

I really liked Masterson who seemed like a good kid with his head on straight, the anti-Craig Hansen if you will. That being said, I think Hagadone was the piece I regretted parting with in this deal. With his struggles against LHP, it seems likely that Masterson's greatest upside is limited to the pen. Bard's ascendancy really made Masterson expendable. Hagadone's walks are most likely a direct product of his recent Tommy John surgery as control is the last thing you get back. He has the real potential to be a stud. One of the nice things about the Sox farm system is that we have the depth to afford losing someone with Hagadone's upside. Kelly, Bowden, Buchholz, Tazawa, Pimental, Doubront, Fife etc. Given the Sox dedication of resources to the amateur draft, it is likely that we'll find someone with Hagadone's upside at some point during the length of time VMart is with the Sox. All in all, it seems like a fair deal that improves both teams.

[possumbait]

I am not thrilled with this trade. The idea of Martinez being a difference maker in a roster of the Sox' construction seems weird. Unless he essentially replaces Varitek's bat, I don't get where he presents an appreciable upgrade over any of post-slump Ortiz, Lowell, Youkilis, or even LaRoche/Kotchman. His is a nice, but not awesome, offensive production.

[dbn]

I think I saw it mentioned somewhere (upthread?) about his declining production as the season has progressed. Is anyone else concerned about this?

Mon OBP SLG
Apr .446 .636
May.413 .468
Jun .322 .480
Jul .280 .250

It's only 80 ABs in July, but his OPS in that month was almost .200 lower than Varitek's (in 65 AB). I'm not suggesting that the Captain will out-produce Vic at the plate going forward, just concerned (as some other posters seem to be) that he might not be spark to the lineup most of us were hoping be acquired.

Perhaps someone who has watched him over the course of the 09 season can comment on this downward trend?

[pokey_reese]

I am not thrilled with this trade. The idea of Martinez being a difference maker in a roster of the Sox' construction seems weird. Unless he essentially replaces Varitek's bat, I don't get where he presents an appreciable upgrade over any of post-slump Ortiz, Lowell, Youkilis, or even LaRoche/Kotchman. His is a nice, but not awesome, offensive production.

His upgrade depends on how well Francona uses him to create platoon match-ups. His .843 OPS against RHP will be a huge upgrade over Lowell's .761 and Tek's .760. There is also the benefit to getting Lowell's defensive problems either onto the bench or at least the DH role several days a week.

[yecul]

I am not thrilled with this trade. The idea of Martinez being a difference maker in a roster of the Sox' construction seems weird. Unless he essentially replaces Varitek's bat, I don't get where he presents an appreciable upgrade over any of post-slump Ortiz, Lowell, Youkilis, or even LaRoche/Kotchman. His is a nice, but not awesome, offensive production.

This is also about the 2010 team and beyond. He helps now. He helps next year. If they retain him he helps beyond -- hard to tell what things will look like then.

It's clear that a difference making bat simply wasn't available at a palatable price. Whether they should have caved or not is another discussion I suppose. But depth and improved quality can be significant.

The one thing I'm wondering is if they could have gotten both Martinez AND Lee. While Philly did give up a good package Boston could have done Buchholz, Masterson, et al to best it. Maybe. Is Boston still that high on Buchholz? Are other teams more down than it appears?

[Trlicek's Whip]

I can see Masterson as a starter but probably not in the AL East where he has to face stacked LH lineups. He might be a good 3-4 starter, a poor mans Derek Lowe if you will.

Which is what Cleveland needed. Fausto Carmona has regressed since his breakout season in 2007 and had to go back to the minors to work on his control. Just got called back up and pitched last night. In addition Jake Westbrook is returning from TJ surgery, Pavano's on short money and is just decent enough this year to maybe sign a multi-year deal in the NL, and the rest of their rotation is suffering youthful hiccups with Sowers, Laffey, and Huff. Of that assortment, Masterson's got a lot more polish and is probably as good already as Sowers/Laffey/Huff/Bad Carmona.

[dcmissle]

If I remember correctly, the rap about V-Mart's catching was his footwork and not so much his arm. Still, he doesn't throw out enough runners.

Mark Shapiro: "In my 18 years in this game, I have not had the privilege to be around a finer person, a finer teammate, a finer father, husband and friend than Vic. ... I know that he will be a friend long after his playing days and my GM days."
Indians Website

While we're on this subject, and since discussion of the "i" word didn't dispatch you or Kilted Fool to the guillotine, did anyone else see V-Mat's tearful departure from the Indians yesterday? By any standard -- whether "the modern athlete" or "back in the day" -- it was remarkable; he could barely talk. I had forgotten that he was in the Cleveland organization since he was 17. I understand better his reputation as a leader, why he is beloved by his teammates, and this somewhat sappy Shapiro quote. This could ease what otherwise might be some dicey playing time issues.

[Adirondack jack]

While we're on this subject, and since discussion of the "i" word didn't dispatch you or Kilted Fool to the guillotine, did anyone else see V-Mat's tearful departure from the Indians yesterday? By any standard -- whether "the modern athlete" or "back in the day" -- it was remarkable; he could barely talk. I had forgotten that he was in the Cleveland organization since he was 17. I understand better his reputation as a leader, why he is beloved by his teammates, and this somewhat sappy Shapiro quote. This could ease what otherwise might be some dicey playing time issues.

It was general manager Mark Shapiro who informed Martinez he is leaving. In recent weeks, Shapiro has said goodbye to Lee, Ben Francisco, Ryan Garko, Rafael Betancourt and Mark DeRosa. But the trades of CC Sabathia last summer and Martinez now seemed the most difficult for him, on a personal level.

"I expressed something to [Martinez] that I truly feel," Shapiro said. "In my 18 years in this game, I have not had the privilege to be around a finer person, a finer teammate, a finer father, husband and friend than Vic. ... I know that he will be a friend long after his playing days and my GM days".

mlb.com

Shapiro was deeply saddened, as well. Also, I haven't noticed Kilted Fool's take on the tribes return package..

Edited by Adirondack jack, 01 August 2009 - 11:19 AM.

[George from Maine]

The Sox have big money contracts with aging Lowell and Ortiz for next year. It is likely that at least one of the two will still be dealing with injury amd/or poor performance next. As a result, Martinez is a perfect fit for this year and next. He can split time at catcher, as well as take at bats from Lowell and Ortiz.

The move would also let the Sox break-in a young catcher next year if Varitek does not pick up his player option.

[JayMags71]

The one thing I'm wondering is if they could have gotten both Martinez AND Lee. While Philly did give up a good package Boston could have done Buchholz, Masterson, et al to best it. Maybe. Is Boston still that high on Buchholz? Are other teams more down than it appears?

I'm willing to bet the conventional wisdom would answer "No" to the first question, and "Yes" to the second.

[Quintanariffic]

Regarding Hagadone, velocity is one thing but 12BB in 25IP in Low A is another, I will add that he had 32K's so there is potential.
Again you aren't going to get VMart for free, but all things considered I see this as pretty good value.

I can see Masterson as a starter but probably not in the AL East where he has to face stacked LH lineups.
He might be a good 3-4 starter, a poor mans Derek Lowe if you will.
He just didn't fit that role on the Sox thus was likely underutilized and ultimately more valuable in trade than his current role as MDC insurance.

Let's not go crazy re: Hagadone. Of course his walk rate is up - he's just over a year out from TJ surgery. It is empirically true that pitchers returning from this procedure experience a loss of control for a period of time after their return. His dominance is quite clearly still there, as evidenced by his ridiculous K/9 and H/9 rates. He will start next year in AA next year and could probably get a taste at the MLB level if the Indians wanted to use him out of the pen. His FB and SL are that good. The only question on Hagadone is whether he can develop his change to be a MLB average pitch.

[KiltedFool]

I haven't posted my opinion of the trade return because frankly I'm not familiar enough or really qualified to talk in any depth about the incoming pieces without talking out my ass. In general my reflexive reply would be "not enough" but that's all visceral response because it's Victor. The topics I am confident on are generally associated with the Tribe or catching, the Tribe is obvious why, catching I was a catcher for 12 years and while I wasn't all that great I'm very aware of and pay a lot of attention to technique and such of catchers.

Because of my own background with the tools of ignorance and because of Victor's long history and role as a foundation stone of a young team coming into it's own, this trade hits me much harder than the Sabathia or Lee trades or the two-faced behavior of Thome, even Moorad leading Manny out of town. Hell I love Sizemore but when he leaves (and 99% likely he will) it won't sting as much.

I've actually attempted to minimize my comments here as the trade became more likely, in part because I'm newer and somewhat of an outsider, and didn't think it would end well if I started firing back at people talking shit about Vic through basic ignorance or Sox colored glasses. As you get to know the guy you'll love him, I'll be interested to see who comments to recognize their error. I also do appreciate the favorable comments people have given here and there to welcome me or my input, this is often a hostile room.

Trade return that I think I would aim for would be one that could be mentioned in the same sentence with the Pierzynski trade. That was an epic heist, though I can't recall if it was recognized as being that egregious at the time. And I don't say equal to that one but at least mentioned in the same breath.

Someone mentioned his footwork as being an issue above, they're correct. In 2006 his CS was way down, his mechanics were a mess, his arm and body/feet weren't in sync, and it's pretty hard for a starting catcher to correct throwing mechanics during the season. News came out much later he had also been playing with a broken toe for a significant stretch and it was never mentioned and he never made excuses.

Shapiro and the Tribe are well known in the industry for their handling of people and treating them well (detractors snark that it'd be nice if they could also draft and develop baseball players). While he is prone to GM speak as much as anyone, his comments on Victor are genuine (and for another example of basic decency that makes little baseball sense, check on the Juan Lara story). He's also generally been successful at trading veterans for prospects, so either he knew what he was doing in these trades or he was very constrained by money issues.

Regarding Buchholz, either he was never even an option from Theo, or Shapiro wanted to spread the risk out by getting multiple high ceiling guys even if some were further away (Sizemore was in A ball at the Colon trade), or Shapiro's scouts gave him reason to believe that Clay may not match the hype (examples are legion, Meche and Prior come to mind).

Fun facts about Vic:
Won MVP and batting title in the minors twice.
Shared a Silver Slugger with Pudge.
Middle name Jesus.
Originally a shortstop, when shifted to catcher to get him a faster path to the majors he hated the idea and considered quitting. His mother told him to stick it out.

Good bio on him here

[RedOctober3829]

I haven't posted my opinion of the trade return because frankly I'm not familiar enough or really qualified to talk in any depth about the incoming pieces without talking out my ass. In general my reflexive reply would be "not enough" but that's all visceral response because it's Victor. The topics I am confident on are generally associated with the Tribe or catching, the Tribe is obvious why, catching I was a catcher for 12 years and while I wasn't all that great I'm very aware of and pay a lot of attention to technique and such of catchers.

Because of my own background with the tools of ignorance and because of Victor's long history and role as a foundation stone of a young team coming into it's own, this trade hits me much harder than the Sabathia or Lee trades or the two-faced behavior of Thome, even Moorad leading Manny out of town. Hell I love Sizemore but when he leaves (and 99% likely he will) it won't sting as much.

I've actually attempted to minimize my comments here as the trade became more likely, in part because I'm newer and somewhat of an outsider, and didn't think it would end well if I started firing back at people talking shit about Vic through basic ignorance or Sox colored glasses. As you get to know the guy you'll love him, I'll be interested to see who comments to recognize their error. I also do appreciate the favorable comments people have given here and there to welcome me or my input, this is often a hostile room.

Trade return that I think I would aim for would be one that could be mentioned in the same sentence with the Pierzynski trade. That was an epic heist, though I can't recall if it was recognized as being that egregious at the time. And I don't say equal to that one but at least mentioned in the same breath.

Someone mentioned his footwork as being an issue above, they're correct. In 2006 his CS was way down, his mechanics were a mess, his arm and body/feet weren't in sync, and it's pretty hard for a starting catcher to correct throwing mechanics during the season. News came out much later he had also been playing with a broken toe for a significant stretch and it was never mentioned and he never made excuses.

Shapiro and the Tribe are well known in the industry for their handling of people and treating them well (detractors snark that it'd be nice if they could also draft and develop baseball players). While he is prone to GM speak as much as anyone, his comments on Victor are genuine (and for another example of basic decency that makes little baseball sense, check on the Juan Lara story). He's also generally been successful at trading veterans for prospects, so either he knew what he was doing in these trades or he was very constrained by money issues.

Regarding Buchholz, either he was never even an option from Theo, or Shapiro wanted to spread the risk out by getting multiple high ceiling guys even if some were further away (Sizemore was in A ball at the Colon trade), or Shapiro's scouts gave him reason to believe that Clay may not match the hype (examples are legion, Meche and Prior come to mind).

Fun facts about Vic:
Won MVP and batting title in the minors twice.
Shared a Silver Slugger with Pudge.
Middle name Jesus.
Originally a shortstop, when shifted to catcher to get him a faster path to the majors he hated the idea and considered quitting. His mother told him to stick it out.

Good bio on him here

KF I hope I speak for the whole board when I say that I appreciate your opinions on this trade. You have turned into one of my favorite posters to read and I hope you keep up the good work.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

KF I hope I speak for the whole board when I say that I appreciate your opinions on this trade. You have turned into one of my favorite posters to read and I hope you keep up the good work.

You do. That's a fantastic writeup KF. We all appreciate it a great deal.

[cwright]

Middle name Jesus.

So he really is the second coming of ...
Seriously, thanks for a terrific writeup. I am perhaps overly excited about the Victor Martinez era. I'm really hoping that we've found our catcher of the future, since things looked pretty bleak last offseason.

If nothing else, he perfectly complements Lowell and Varitek, both of whom should be part-time players at best.

[LoweTek]

You do. That's a fantastic writeup KF. We all appreciate it a great deal.

And given the discussion of late regarding Board membership, KF's post serves as an excellent example of a quality contribution that has nothing to with stats or numbers. Hopefully it will serve as contrary evidence to those believing in depth peripherals analysis is the only means or source of excellence at SoSH.