22 replies to this topic

[Puffy]

According to ESPN, Jose Canseco claims that he knows of a Hall of Famer who has used PEDs.

"When you tell me something I didn't already know, I'll be surprised," Canseco told ESPN. "And I'll tell you this, Major League Baseball is going to have a big, big problem on their hands when they find out they have a Hall of Famer who's used."

When asked to name who that Hall of Fame player is, Canseco refused to divulge who he believes it is.

Obviously you have to consider the source, but this is a pretty bold statement. The list of Hall of Famers that Canseco would potentially have knowledge of is pretty small. Although he refuses to come out and say it, he could only be talking about a handful of guys.

The first two names that come to mind are Rickey Henderson (perhaps most likely given the timing) and Dennis Eckersley. The only other HOFers he's played with are Boggs, Reggie Jackson, and Nolan Ryan. Now, he might have some other knowledge, but these are really the names that jump out at me. Those are some huge names.

[vadertime]

According to ESPN, Jose Canseco claims that he knows of a Hall of Famer who has used PEDs.



Obviously you have to consider the source, but this is a pretty bold statement.

That makes it more likely to be true to me. Love him or hate him, 99% of what he's said the last few years has been true.

Edit- Also played with Goose Gossage in '92.

Edited by vadertime, 30 July 2009 - 08:19 PM.

[Puffy]

That makes it more likely to be true to me. Love him or hate him, 99% of what he's said the last few years has been true.

Edit- Also played with Goose Gossage in '92.

Good call on Gossage. Rickey is the one that really stands out for me. Just considering the HOFers he's played with, I'd rank them in this order (from most likely to least likely):

1. Henderson
2. Ryan
3. Eckersley
4. Boggs
5. Jackson

Gossage, I don't know. I basically think he's calling out Rickey. Nolan Ryan wouldn't shock me either.

[vadertime]

yeah, I wasn't suggesting that Gossage was the one, I was more pointing out one that you missed.

I might Boggs up a little higher on your list. I was only 12 at the time so my memory may be a bit clouded but Boggs looked DOA in his last year in Boston.

10 straight years of .300 and then he puts up a .259 and then goes back to putting up .300 seasons...?

Unless there was some big injury I'm forgetting about I think you have to strongly consider him.

[jtn46]

I have some ideas, but this is a really shitty game that I'd rather not play.

What sucks about the steroid era is exactly this, that we're basically hanging some of the best players that ever lived simply because one of them might be guilty.

Edited by jtn46, 30 July 2009 - 08:45 PM.

[sfip]

Canseco called into a sportstalk radio station here in Philly today and was asked if it was Rickey. FWIW, he insinuated that he has no knowledge of Rickey doing PEDs.

[Crona149]

Nolan Ryan wouldn't shock me either.

If anything I think Nolan Ryan might be one of the more shocking names that could come out as having used, especially given his recent focus on getting today's pitchers to start pitching longer and going deeper into pitch counts. I would think that if he had been using in order to accomplish what he did then he wouldn't be so outspoken about naturally getting young players into being more like, well, him.

[ExtremeR7]

I believe he is talking about Cal Ripken.

Edited by ExtremeR7, 02 August 2009 - 03:50 PM.

[God's Cop]

I believe he is talking about Carl Ripken.

This is sig worthy.

[BucketOBalls]

Well, we know Rickey was on speed. /joke

This is probably Canseco fishing around. Didn't he have problems getting his second book published due to facts? Not to mention, if 80% of players used...well yeah, there probably is/will be a hall of famer who did.

The way the quote is worded makes me think Canseco was speaking more hypothetically than that he knew an actual name. I.e. there will be a shit show when it comes out that a hall of famer used.....other wise, why would he say "I know someone in the hall who used."

He just decided to try to turn it to his advantage(possible to drum up publicity for his book) when they took him literally.

I kind hope he does pick on Henderson, just for the reaction.

[The_Powa_of_Seiji_Ozawa]

According to ESPN, Jose Canseco claims that he knows of a Hall of Famer who has used PEDs.

But did Canseco mention which part of the HOF this steroid user is in? It could be Peter Gammons...

Just looking over the list of HOF teammates of Canseco, Eck's rebirth as a closer really sticks out as the performance anomaly which coincides with Canseco's tenure in Oakland.

Edited by The_Powa_of_Seiji_Ozawa, 31 July 2009 - 02:37 AM.

[Fred not Lynn]

"Used"? Used what?

My guess is that quite a few Hall of Famers "used" stimulants on a regular basis... and while stimulant abuse isn't as sexy as steroids, it can be Just as dangerous and illegal.

[God's Cop]

My question is why are people only limiting this HOF to be a person Canseco was teammates with? Didn't he "work out" with people? One of which he not only accused of using PEDs, but also claimed he introduced him to a supplier/dealer?

[troparra]

Paul Molitor has fairly suspicious numbers. In 1987, after putting up a career 113 OPS+ over 9 seasons, he hit .353 with a 1.003 OPS (previous high was .842). He also hit .341 with 225 hits at age 39.

[mikeysox]

When I was in 7th grade (1987), Tom Boswell came to speak at my school in Alexandria, VA. After his talk, he came to one of my classes for a more informal chat. He said that a big issue in baseball that no one was talking about is steriods.

He then said that he had personally seen Jose Canseco openly use steroids in the club house. If I recall correctly, he said he took it in a drink or shake or something, which sounds weird. He said another player he knew for certain had used steroids was Wade Boggs. I don't remember if Boswell said he had actually seen Boggs do it, but he was clear that it was based on first hand knowledge.

I was a huge Boggs fan at the time and decided I wasn't going to believe him. But since all the stuff that has come out, it's hard not to.

[CrackpotTheory]

Canseco's "clarified" statement from a radio appearance last night was that he's pretty sure that the day will come soon when a HOF player is outed, not that he knows of one right now.

[SaladParmesan]

Paul Molitor has fairly suspicious numbers. In 1987, after putting up a career 113 OPS+ over 9 seasons, he hit .353 with a 1.003 OPS (previous high was .842). He also hit .341 with 225 hits at age 39.

Posts like this pretty much sum up why I hate steroids discussions. Because a guy has numbers that defy traditional expectations based on age and playing time, they're "suspicious"? Come on.

I realize the guy has an admitted history of drug abuse, but this post is pure conjecture.

[Puffy]

Paul Molitor has fairly suspicious numbers. In 1987, after putting up a career 113 OPS+ over 9 seasons, he hit .353 with a 1.003 OPS (previous high was .842). He also hit .341 with 225 hits at age 39.

1987 was a notorious high-water year for home runs in MLB. It was the year that Mark McGwire hit 49 HRs as a rookie (shattering the record) and even Wade Boggs hit 24 (when his previous career high was 8). Everyone's numbers look suspicious in 1987. There was speculation at the time that the balls were juiced. Take a look at HR totals between 1977 (after expansion) and 1992 (prior to the next expansion).

1977 - 3,644
1978 - 2,956
1979 - 3,433
1980 - 3,087
1981 - 1,781 Labor Strike
1982 - 3,379
1983 - 3,301
1984 - 3,258
1985 - 3,602
1986 - 3,813
1987 - 4,458
1988 - 3,180
1989 - 3,083
1990 - 3,317
1991 - 3,383
1992 - 3,038

But I digress.

Even if you expanded the possibilities to all HOFers that played during Canseco's career, that is a small list. How would it change the fate of Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens and co. if it was revealed that some of these guys juiced?

[troparra]

Right, it is conjecture. I'm impugning a guy who never had any steroid suspicions. But I thought that's what the thread was about. Based on our steroid timeline, which is that in the mid-late 80s it became more widespread, and looking at the HoFers who played in that era, I was just hypothesizing that Paul Molitor could be the guy.

Of course, he might not be the guy. In fact, he probably isn't the guy. You're right about this being what's so bad about the steroid era. If you have a good year, you're on steroids. If you have a bad year, you must have previously been on steroids. Nobody is safe, especially if you were really good and especially if you were really good at advanced ages.

edit: Crackpot theory's post above suggests that Jose doesn't actually know of a current HoFer who has juiced, so that makes my post even more speculative.

Edited by troparra, 31 July 2009 - 10:43 AM.

[Puffy]

Canseco's "clarified" statement from a radio appearance last night was that he's pretty sure that the day will come soon when a HOF player is outed, not that he knows of one right now.

The discussion needs to change anyway. It raises the larger point about how to treat known PED users who would be potential Hall of Fame candidates (Bonds, Clemens, Palmeiro, McGwire, Sosa, etc) and how we should regard the crop of Hall of Famers who played during the steriod era.

Posts like this pretty much sum up why I hate steroids discussions. Because a guy has numbers that defy traditional expectations based on age and playing time, they're "suspicious"? Come on.

I realize the guy has an admitted history of drug abuse, but this post is pure conjecture.

I agree. Maybe we should take the focus on the names and speculation. Can we agree that there are probably Hall of Famers who used PEDs, including steriods? Are we at the point where there are no sacred cows? The heroes of my baseball lifetime (from the late 80s to present) - are they all suspect? I admit that it's useless tossing names around, but I'm still absorbing this news. I'm not saying Boggs, Molitor, Eckersley, Gwynn (and the immortal "Carl" Ripken) are guilty, but isn't there a shadow over all of them simply because of the era?

[SaladParmesan]

I'm not saying Boggs, Molitor, Eckersley, Gwynn (and the immortal "Carl" Ripken) are guilty, but isn't there a shadow over all of them simply because of the era?

Maybe there is a shadow, I just don't see the point in throwing names out and backing them up with the basest of reasoning. Don't get me wrong, I'm no steroid apologist and if it comes out that any one of those names was dirty (which will be impossible, since they pre-dated testing and any evidence would likely be based on hearsay or Canseco-esque "firsthand" accounts) I would be prepared to indict their career. It just strikes me as a futile exercise to pick and choose what we want to believe about players based on anomalies (superhuman consistency a la Ripken; the postponement of age related decline of Molitor, etc.) that may or may not be artificially induced, and which we will never be able to prove definitively one way or the other.

[Plympton91]

Maybe there is a shadow, I just don't see the point in throwing names out and backing them up with the basest of reasoning. Don't get me wrong, I'm no steroid apologist and if it comes out that any one of those names was dirty (which will be impossible, since they pre-dated testing and any evidence would likely be based on hearsay or Canseco-esque "firsthand" accounts) I would be prepared to indict their career. It just strikes me as a futile exercise to pick and choose what we want to believe about players based on anomalies (superhuman consistency a la Ripken; the postponement of age related decline of Molitor, etc.) that may or may not be artificially induced, and which we will never be able to prove definitively one way or the other.

I don't have any sympathy for any of them. They were the ones who could have spoken up and stopped it. They were the ones who could have put quiet pressure on the union to make drug testing part of the negotiations in the early 1990s.

They didn't.

They're complicit in creating the stain, if not actually users. If their name gets raked through the mud, or if their accomplishments are downplayed because of it, it's their own damn fault.

[Synovia]

If anything I think Nolan Ryan might be one of the more shocking names that could come out as having used, especially given his recent focus on getting today's pitchers to start pitching longer and going deeper into pitch counts. I would think that if he had been using in order to accomplish what he did then he wouldn't be so outspoken about naturally getting young players into being more like, well, him.

Unless his young players are using new, undetectable stuff.

Either that, or he just doesn't believe in the injury/pitch count statistics.