63 replies to this topic

[Rice4HOF]

I've seen a few scoring questions sprinkled throughout this forum, maybe we can use this thread to discuss any scoring questions.

Anyhow, let me start of with one. I think I know the answer (unless someone tells me I'm wrong), but I have a dad on my son's team that disagrees. I've shown him the scoring rule book from MLB official rules - scoring, and he thinks I'm not interpreting it correctly.
Here's the situation: Runner on 1st, less than 2 outs. Batter hits a line drive/fly ball into the gap in right/center field, everyone can tell it's going to fall in for a hit. Except the runner on 1st, is afraid of getting doubled up if the centerfielder makes a diving catch, so he stays about 3 steps from 1st base. Ball falls in, the runner is thrown out at 2nd base on a force out.
I am 99% sure, the hitter (unfairly) only gets credit for hitting into a fielder's choice and his batting average drops.
The dad of the player who lost the hit is quoting rule 10.05 (b) (3) which says:

(b) The official scorer shall not credit a base hit when ... (3) pitcher, the catcher or any infielder handles a batted ball and puts out a preceding runner who is attempting to advance one base or to return to his original base, or would have put out such runner with ordinary effort except for a fielding error. The official scorer shall charge the batter with a time at bat but no hit;

and is keying in on the fact that it specifically says P,C, or infielder, and therefore excludes outfielders. So if it is the outfielder which handles the ball then this rule does not apply (he says).

However, I'm quoting rule 10.05 (b) (1) which says:

(b) The official scorer shall not credit a base hit when a:
(1) runner is forced out by a batted ball, or would have been forced out except for a fielding error;

He thinks the rules contradict each other, and you have to apply them together, therefore crediting a hit to the batter. I'm pointing out the difference being that rule (1) talks about a FORCE out, and rule (3) does not necessarily apply to force plays.

Anyhow, if anybody thinks I am incorrect and the hitter should get a hit, please let me know. If you agree that the hitter only gets a fielder's choice, what I am looking for is a link to an online play-by-play account where this has happened in an MLB game. (e.g. "Ramirez hits into a fielder's choice to centerfielder. Ortiz forced out at second base"). I've googled the crap out of this, found a few other message boards that discuss this situation but nothing official and my friend won't believe me until I have concrete proof.

TIA.

[Myt1]

I've seen a few scoring questions sprinkled throughout this forum, maybe we can use this thread to discuss any scoring questions.

Anyhow, let me start of with one. I think I know the answer (unless someone tells me I'm wrong), but I have a dad on my son's team that disagrees. I've shown him the scoring rule book from MLB official rules - scoring, and he thinks I'm not interpreting it correctly.
Here's the situation: Runner on 1st, less than 2 outs. Batter hits a line drive/fly ball into the gap in right/center field, everyone can tell it's going to fall in for a hit. Except the runner on 1st, is afraid of getting doubled up if the centerfielder makes a diving catch, so he stays about 3 steps from 1st base. Ball falls in, the runner is thrown out at 2nd base on a force out.
I am 99% sure, the hitter (unfairly) only gets credit for hitting into a fielder's choice and his batting average drops.
The dad of the player who lost the hit is quoting rule 10.05 (b) (3) which says:
and is keying in on the fact that it specifically says P,C, or infielder, and therefore excludes outfielders. So if it is the outfielder which handles the ball then this rule does not apply (he says).

However, I'm quoting rule 10.05 (b) (1) which says:

He thinks the rules contradict each other, and you have to apply them together, therefore crediting a hit to the batter. I'm pointing out the difference being that rule (1) talks about a FORCE out, and rule (3) does not necessarily apply to force plays.

Anyhow, if anybody thinks I am incorrect and the hitter should get a hit, please let me know. If you agree that the hitter only gets a fielder's choice, what I am looking for is a link to an online play-by-play account where this has happened in an MLB game. (e.g. "Ramirez hits into a fielder's choice to centerfielder. Ortiz forced out at second base"). I've googled the crap out of this, found a few other message boards that discuss this situation but nothing official and my friend won't believe me until I have concrete proof.

TIA.

The rules don't contradict each other because it's a set of "or" clauses:

(b) The official scorer shall not credit a base hit when a:
(1) runner is forced out by a batted ball, or would have been forced out except for a fielding error;
(2) batter apparently hits safely and a runner who is forced to advance by reason of the batter becoming a runner fails to touch the first base to which such runner is advancing and is called out on appeal. The official scorer shall charge the batter with a time at bat but no hit;
(3) pitcher, the catcher or any infielder handles a batted ball and puts out a preceding runner who is attempting to advance one base or to return to his original base, or would have put out such runner with ordinary effort except for a fielding error. The official scorer shall charge the batter with a time at bat but no hit;
(4) fielder fails in an attempt to put out a preceding runner and, in the scorer's judgment, the batter-runner could have been put out at first base; or
(5) runner is called out for interference with a fielder attempting to field a batted ball, unless in the scorer's judgment the batter-runner would have been safe had the interference not occurred.

So, if any of 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 happens, it's not a base hit. Number 1 happened, so it's not a base hit.

That will be $67.50 please.

EDIT: More to the point, if a father is going to bitch about the statistical significance of a single base hit scorekeeping decision, it's clear that his priorities are not in order. In this case, his priority apparently should have been a remedial English class.

EDIT THE SECOND: Bonus points if you can figure out the situation contemplated by (3) but not (1).

Edited by Myt1, 22 June 2009 - 11:11 AM.

[phrenile]

EDIT THE SECOND: Bonus points if you can figure out the situation contemplated by (3) but not (1).

Base runner at first. Batter hits a grounder to the second baseman, who tags the runner but does not throw to first. Batter reaches first base safely but is not credited with a hit. The base runner was put out by an infielder but not forced out, so (3) applies and (1) does not.

[Rice4HOF]

Thanks for confirming that I was right.

That will be $67.50 please.

Wow. You must charge a much lower hourly rate than I do

EDIT: More to the point, if a father is going to bitch about the statistical significance of a single base hit scorekeeping decision, it's clear that his priorities are not in order. In this case, his priority apparently should have been a remedial English class

To be fair to the dad, he was not bitching. We are always discussing strange rules and scorekeeping decisions and he thought it was odd that a batter would be penalized for poor baserunning and looked it up and was confused by the rule. Earlier in the season, he pointed out that my son should have had credit for a hit when I gave him an FC for hitting a ball that hit a baserunner. I assumed it was an FC, but he looked it up and saw that it said that the batter does get credit for a hit when a runner is called out for intereference.

EDIT THE SECOND: Bonus points if you can figure out the situation contemplated by (3) but not (1).

I don't think phrenile got it quite right. His example sounds like a force out and is covered by (1) as well.

I was thinking the answer would be something like

Runner on 2nd. Ground ball to right side of infield. 2nd baseman throw to 3rd to get runner between 2nd and 3rd. Not a force out, but would be a FC.

Anyhow, I'm still looking for a boxscore/play-by-play recap to end the discussion with my friend.

[LoweTek]

Anyhow, if anybody thinks I am incorrect and the hitter should get a hit, please let me know. If you agree that the hitter only gets a fielder's choice, what I am looking for is a link to an online play-by-play account where this has happened in an MLB game. (e.g. "Ramirez hits into a fielder's choice to centerfielder. Ortiz forced out at second base"). I've googled the crap out of this, found a few other message boards that discuss this situation but nothing official and my friend won't believe me until I have concrete proof.

Not MLB but happens all the time in college softball, WAC Nevada vs. Hawaii, 5/8/2009:

Nevada 7th - Pagaduan, D to 2b for Gonzalez, M. Beach, M grounded out to
1b unassisted. Patrick, D tripled down the rf line. Micka, N singled to right
field, RBI; Patrick, D scored. Silagyi, K reached on a fielder's choice; Micka,
N out at second cf to ss. Puzey, B singled to center field; Silagyi, K advanced
to third. Murdock, B grounded out to 2b. 1 run, 3 hits, 0 errors, 2 LOB.

Here's a college baseball summer league game, New Market Rebels at Covington 'Jacks, Jun 13, 2009:

Covington 'Jacks 6th - Johnson, S homered to right field, RBI. Muse, J homered to left field, RBI. Durrence, R struck out swinging. Guy, L walked. Lower, B reached on a fielder's choice; Guy, L out at second cf to 2b, out on the play.

Couldn't find an MLB example. Other scoring rule of thumb to use on this is hitter cannot be credited with a hit when any runner on base ahead of him is forced out. You see this sometimes also on dropped fly balls when no error is charged or when an outfielder is charging for line drive and traps the ball.

[Myt1]

Base runner at first. Batter hits a grounder to the second baseman, who tags the runner but does not throw to first. Batter reaches first base safely but is not credited with a hit. The base runner was put out by an infielder but not forced out, so (3) applies and (1) does not.

Of course. Which leads us to all sorts of fun stuff.

Runner on first, no outs. Ortiz, batting against the shift, hits a flare that lands between the SS and 2B running out, and the RF on a dead run coming in. Runner stops suddenly to make sure that the ball isn't caught, and, in doing so, tears his ACL. RF fields the ball on 1 hop, and continues to run in and tag the runner who is writhing on the ground in pain. Ortiz reaches 1st safely. Base hit, right? Now, imagine that instead of tagging the runner, the RF throws the ball to the 3rd baseman covering second. Fielder's choice, right?

Silly rules.

[phrenile]

I don't think phrenile got it quite right. His example sounds like a force out and is covered by (1) as well.

I'd argue that in my example, the runner is not forced out because he is simply tagged while not standing on a base, although the definition of "force play" cuts against that. Yours is probably a cleaner example, in any event.

[Myt1]

Thanks for confirming that I was right.


Wow. You must charge a much lower hourly rate than I do

I value billed you 10 minutes.

To be fair to the dad, he was not bitching. We are always discussing strange rules and scorekeeping decisions and he thought it was odd that a batter would be penalized for poor baserunning and looked it up and was confused by the rule. Earlier in the season, he pointed out that my son should have had credit for a hit when I gave him an FC for hitting a ball that hit a baserunner. I assumed it was an FC, but he looked it up and saw that it said that the batter does get credit for a hit when a runner is called out for intereference.

Yeah, just messing with you.

I don't think phrenile got it quite right. His example sounds like a force out and is covered by (1) as well.

I was thinking the answer would be something like

Runner on 2nd. Ground ball to right side of infield. 2nd baseman throw to 3rd to get runner between 2nd and 3rd. Not a force out, but would be a FC.

Anyhow, I'm still looking for a boxscore/play-by-play recap to end the discussion with my friend.

Hmm. That's a tough one, actually. "Forced out" isn't a defined term, and "Force play" doesn't give great guidance. My understanding was that tagging a player was not an example of a force out, only tagging the bag to which the player was forced was. Here's the Force Play definition:

Rule 2.00

A FORCE PLAY is a play in which a runner legally loses his right to occupy a base by reason of the batter becoming a runner.

In Phrenile's example (I think we can go without the spoiler boxes now) the runner left first because he was forced to. I still think only tagging the forced to bag is an example of a forced out, though. In that instance, he is not out because he lost the right to occupy 1st. He's out because he was tagged.

Edited by Myt1, 22 June 2009 - 01:13 PM.

[phrenile]

In Phrenile's example (I think we can go without the spoiler boxes now) the runner left first because he was forced to. I still think only tagging the forced to bag is an example of a forced out, though. In that instance, he is not out because he lost the right to occupy 1st. He's out because he was tagged.

It's weird, though: the force has not yet been removed in my example, and it is an out occurring while the conditions constituting a force play are in effect. The runner is not entitled to remain at first unless the batter is put out, which would remove the force but not implicate the scoring rule in question. On the other hand, he is out for reasons (tag) that otherwise have nothing else to do with the batter's having become a runner.

We may need a metaphysicist to resolve this one.

[PaulinMyrBch]

It's not a FC if in the scorer's opinion the fielder would NOT have thrown out the batter-runner.

When we score these for our travel team, we score it an out (ovviously) if its a 9-3 putout, but a hit for the batter if its a 8-4/6 or 7-4/5/6 force out. the scorer has discretion to determine if the fielder would have thrown out the batter.

[LoweTek]

It's not a FC if in the scorer's opinion the fielder would NOT have thrown out the batter-runner.

When we score these for our travel team, we score it an out (ovviously) if its a 9-3 putout, but a hit for the batter if its a 8-4/6 or 7-4/5/6 force out. the scorer has discretion to determine if the fielder would have thrown out the batter.

Can you cite a rule or any reference for this. I think it's incorrect. See examples I posted above.

[PaulinMyrBch]

Can you cite a rule or any reference for this. I think it's incorrect. See examples I posted above.

You're right. I've been applying this wrong on two counts.

Having said that, at the age we're dealing with, 12 moving into 13, we've gone from 46/60 - 54/80- 60-90 in the last 12 months, and sometimes odd plays happen due to the size of the field. We may have agreed to what I was stating and not done it based on the rule. I was thinking we were relying on some authority.

(d) When a fielder fails in an attempt to put out a preceding runner, and in the scorer's judgment the batter runner could have been put out at first base.

[LoweTek]

You're right. I've been applying this wrong on two counts.

Having said that, at the age we're dealing with, 12 moving into 13, we've gone from 46/60 - 54/80- 60-90 in the last 12 months, and sometimes odd plays happen due to the size of the field. We may have agreed to what I was stating and not done it based on the rule. I was thinking we were relying on some authority.

To be clear, are you citing section section (d) as an explanation of why you are scoring these plays as base hits? No quarrel with a local scoring practice which allows the exception. As you say, they are transitioning field dimensions. But I'm confused by you would quote of section (d) in the context of the rest of your post. It applies to when the preceding runner is not thrown out.

[PaulinMyrBch]

To be clear, are you citing section section (d) as an explanation of why you are scoring these plays as base hits? No quarrel with a local scoring practice which allows the exception. As you say, they are transitioning field dimensions. But I'm confused by you would quote of section (d) in the context of the rest of your post. It applies to when the preceding runner is not thrown out.

No, I'm saying that is the rule I wasn't reading closely enough (or at all).

I keep the Baseball Field Guide laying around the bathroom and this is what is quoted in that text.

Base hits will be scored when....(6) When on a hit, a fielder tries without error to put out a runner in front of the batter, (fielder's choice), and fails to put out that runner, and the official scorer believes the batter would have been safe at first if the fielder had tried to put him out instead.

I had that wrong as well, but that is where I was getting the discretion piece....bottom line is I should have dug a bit before I posted.

[PaulinMyrBch]

About the most unlikely FC you'll ever see last night. No doubts any more.

9-2 force out, FC to the hitter.

Edited by PaulinMyrBch, 12 July 2009 - 07:19 AM.

[LoweTek]

About the most unlikely FC you'll ever see last night. No doubts any more.

9-2 force out, FC to the hitter.

I had 9-3 against the other day, if it makes you feel any better. Not an FC, but still...

[loshjott]

My 11 yr old rec team had a pretty unusual play this season. Bases loaded one out, I bring the corners in and told them and the pitcher to go home for the force on a grounder. Standard stuff. Pitcher walks a run in, so I bring the CF in to pitch to the next batter, but I forget to tell him to go home on a come backer. Of course, 1st pitch is a sharp come backer which he fields cleanly, wheels around and fires to the 1B. 1B is playing in about 10 feet from the bag and has no chance of getting the runner, so he fires to the catcher. Throw beats the runner from 3rd. 1-3-2 put out.

[LoweTek]

My 11 yr old rec team had a pretty unusual play this season. Bases loaded one out, I bring the corners in and told them and the pitcher to go home for the force on a grounder. Standard stuff. Pitcher walks a run in, so I bring the CF in to pitch to the next batter, but I forget to tell him to go home on a come backer. Of course, 1st pitch is a sharp come backer which he fields cleanly, wheels around and fires to the 1B. 1B is playing in about 10 feet from the bag and has no chance of getting the runner, so he fires to the catcher. Throw beats the runner from 3rd. 1-3-2 put out.

And... a Fielder's Choice for the batter.

When I was playing semi-pro about 15 years ago I was in a weird play I have never seen before or since. Our 3B wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer. I'm the 2B and there are runners on first and third with one out. Runner on 1B breaks to steal. I break over to cover the bag. Batter hits a hard ground ball right to the 3B who was playing up and even with the bag. This forces the runner on 3B to retreat to the base. 3B apparently does not pick up on the runner from 1B stealing and much to my surprise, fires the ball to me. Runner going to 2B was *cough* Safe By Like A Foot. So I continue the play on instinct and execute my normal pivot throwing to 1B to "complete the DP" (while getting wrecked by the runner from 1B) and try to get the batter runner. He was out at 1B by several steps. Upon seeing the 3B go to second, runner from third had broken for the plate and he is thrown out by the 1B. This all happened rather quickly. So we have an SB and a very cleanly executed, albeit odd, 5-4-3-2 double play to end the inning.

[steveluck7]

I had the cheapest trip around the bases in my 20 years of playing baseball.
Last thursday, in my 2nd AB.
Man on 1st, no one out. I hit a flare between 1st and 2nd (closer to 1st), the 1b freezes and doesnt even move towards the ball. Our runner is stuck in no man's land but sticks close to the bag as it should have been a ctachable ball. the ball hits the ground with spin and takes a sharp turn, hitting the runner in the foot. He's out, i get 1st and am awarded a hit...
I move up to 2nd on a base hit to left. Move to 3rd on a HPB.
Bases loaded now. First pitch to the next hitter is high, he swings at a ball near his neck. He does not make any contact and the ball pops out of the catcher's mitt, rolling about 5 ft behind him. Not far enough for me to even think about breaking for the plate. The catcher, once the ball popped out, sprung to his feet and took off his mask. He quickly spotted the ball and looked over at me. Noticing that I'm not heading plateward, he casually approaches the ball and bends down to scoop it up... with his mask!

the base umpire immediately screams "Detatched equipment!! everyone gets 2 bases."
I have never seen that called in my life.

In the same game, that same ump exercised (proper) discretion in not calling an IF fly rule. It resulted in our team turning a DP but the 2b was running with his back to home and the ball dropped just out of his reach. he whirled and threw to 2b for the force, then the throw went to 3rd for the tag play.

Strange night all around.

[The Four Peters]

Hmm. That's a tough one, actually. "Forced out" isn't a defined term, and "Force play" doesn't give great guidance. My understanding was that tagging a player was not an example of a force out, only tagging the bag to which the player was forced was. Here's the Force Play definition:

Rule 2.00

A FORCE PLAY is a play in which a runner legally loses his right to occupy a base by reason of the batter becoming a runner.

In Phrenile's example (I think we can go without the spoiler boxes now) the runner left first because he was forced to. I still think only tagging the forced to bag is an example of a forced out, though. In that instance, he is not out because he lost the right to occupy 1st. He's out because he was tagged.

There is a common misconception that a force out has to be a tagging of the base. While that is the colloquial term, it really doesn't matter. Which of these is a force out (meaning the run doesn't count)?

1. Runners on 2nd and 3rd. 1 out. Fly ball to right, the runner on 3rd tags and scores. The runner on second has a brain fart thinking there's two outs, doesn't tag. The RF throws to the SS covering second, who steps on the bag. Does the run count? (If you want to take it further, imagine the runner at 2nd being called out for appeal for leaving early. I've had many a softball argument over this).

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[LoweTek]

There is a common misconception that a force out has to be a tagging of the base. While that is the colloquial term, it really doesn't matter. Which of these is a force out (meaning the run doesn't count)?

1. Runners on 2nd and 3rd. 1 out. Fly ball to right, the runner on 3rd tags and scores. The runner on second has a brain fart thinking there's two outs, doesn't tag. The RF throws to the SS covering second, who steps on the bag. Does the run count? (If you want to take it further, imagine the runner at 2nd being called out for appeal for leaving early. I've had many a softball argument over this).

Yes, the run counts. Even though the runner at 2B was out by having the base tagged, he was not forced to leave the base after the catch, so it's not a true force out.

This is a timing play. If the runner off 2B is out before the runner from from 3B scores, the run does not count. I'd imagine in most situations, assuming the RF promptly caught and threw to 2B, the runner from 3B would not have time to tag and score prior to the third out being recorded at 2B, thus the run does not count.

2. Runner on third, two outs. Ground ball to SS (let's call him Lulio Jugo) who fields and throws up the line to first. The runner scores, then the 1B catches the ball, and tags the runner (after the runner crossed the plate). Does the run count?

No, run doesn't count. The batter was forced to run to first as a result of hitting the ball, so it's a force out, even though he was tagged. You can apply this same logic to the runner going to 2nd in Myt1's example.

You are not specific in your example here but it speculates the runner from 3B can reach the plate before the SS can field the ball and throw up the line to 1B. As long as the 1B executes this tag before the batter/runner reaches 1B, it is correct. However, if the B/R had reached first safely and was then tagged out by the 1B, say if he had made the turn toward 2B and attempted to retreat to 1B, then the run would count.

[The Four Peters]

This is a timing play. If the runner off 2B is out before the runner from from 3B scores, the run does not count. I'd imagine in most situations, assuming the RF promptly caught and threw to 2B, the runner from 3B would not have time to tag and score prior to the third out being recorded at 2B, thus the run does not count.

Sorry I wasn't specific enough. In both examples, the runner crossed home plate before the putout was made. So, in the above, the run counts if he does cross the plate first.

You are not specific in your example here but it speculates the runner from 3B can reach the plate before the SS can field the ball and throw up the line to 1B. As long as the 1B executes this tag before the batter/runner reaches 1B, it is correct. However, if the B/R had reached first safely and was then tagged out by the 1B, say if he had made the turn toward 2B and attempted to retreat to 1B, then the run would count.

Again, the runner scores before the tag (let's say Ellsbury on 3B, Lowell running down the line). Even if Ellsbury scores before Lowell is tagged, run doesn't count. Of course, you are correct in the statement that if the batter reaches 1B safely, then is tagged out, it no longer becomes a force play, and the run does score.

Both examples were used to show that the method of the putout (tag vs. stepping on the base) doesn't matter in determining a "force out" in relation to a run counting. It's possible to step on a bag and have the run still count, and it's possible to tag someone and the run doesn't count due to it being a force play.

[savage362]

here's one that occurred in my game today and since I'm in charge of the statistics I want to get another opinion.

1 out, runners on first and third.

Opposing team attempts to squeeze, but batter misses sign and the runner on 3rd is hung out to dry. While involved in the rundown, runner on first makes it to second.

Runner on third was tagged out (2-5-1), and then the runner who started on first was thrown out attempting to get to third(1-4).

I scored it as a caught stealing for the runner on 3rd. The guy doing the book gave credit for a stolen base and then caught stealing for the runner at first.

I argued that it could also be considered a defensive indifference then a caught stealing for the runner at first since we were not concerned with his advancement to second. I also suggested scoring it at a defensive indifference and then thrown out advancing to third.

I've been looking at the MLB rule and I can see how it could be ruled in 2-3 different ways. How would you score it?

[CrackpotTheory]

The runner on first can't be credited with a SB on a play when another runner, who was also attempting to steal, is put out before acquiring the next base. It's Rule 10.07 (d).

When a double- or triple-steal is attempted and one runner is thrown out before reaching and holding the base such runner is attempting to steal, no other runner shall be credited with a stolen base.

And regarding "defensive indifference", you do not rule that if the defense didn't make a play for "strategic reasons". The comments in Rule 10.07 (g) specifically mention a runner from first stealing second with a runner on third. It says you have to look at the "totality" of the situation. In this case, it's not that they were indifferent, they just had strategic reasons (not allowing runner on third to score) not to throw.

Rule 10.07(g) Comment: The scorer shall consider, in judging whether the defensive team has been indifferent to a runner’s advance, the totality of the circumstances, including the inning and score of the game, whether the defensive team had held the runner on base, whether the pitcher had made any pickoff attempts on that runner before the runner’s advance, whether the fielder ordinarily expected to cover the base to which the runner advanced made a move to cover such base, whether the defensive team had a legitimate strategic motive to not contest the runner’s advance or whether the defensive team might be trying impermissibly to deny the runner credit for a stolen base. For example, with runners on first and third bases, the official scorer should ordinarily credit a stolen base when the runner on first advances to second, if, in the scorer’s judgment, the defensive team had a legitimate strategic motive—namely, preventing the runner on third base from scoring on the throw to second base—not to contest the runner’s advance to second base.

Again though, in this case, it doesn't matter because the preceding runner was put out. No SB awarded.

Edited by CrackpotTheory, 05 September 2009 - 10:43 PM.

[wyatt55]

At one of the Red Sox - Rangers games in Arlington, a Rangers fan in front of me was scoring the game (GASP!). that's like the second one I've seen in like 60 games over the past decade. Anyhoo, he and I were debating what to put into the book for the batter for the batted groundball that hit a Sox runner (Nick Green?) going 2nd to 3rd. how is that scored and recorded in the book?

Also, on a catcher interference, how is it recorded? Is it a hit? An AB? Change OBP?

Thanks in advance.

[Cuzittt]

At one of the Red Sox - Rangers games in Arlington, a Rangers fan in front of me was scoring the game (GASP!). that's like the second one I've seen in like 60 games over the past decade. Anyhoo, he and I were debating what to put into the book for the batter for the batted groundball that hit a Sox runner (Nick Green?) going 2nd to 3rd. how is that scored and recorded in the book?

Also, on a catcher interference, how is it recorded? Is it a hit? An AB? Change OBP?

The first one is tricky. The first thing is that the batter is given a hit... that's the easy part. Beyond that... I don't know. There probably is no short code for it.


The second one is easy... It's recorded as Catcher's Interference. Batter reaches base... but it essentially becomes a non plate appearance. It is not an AB, it is not a Plate Appearance, it does not change any stats at all.

[CrackpotTheory]

In the case of catcher's interference, the catcher is also charged with an error. In addition, the offense can elect to take the outcome of the play if it results in a positive play. If a batter's only time up in a game results in a catcher's interference, it would not end a hitting streak, and if he scores it's unearned (although if it happens with 2 outs it does not make all runs scored behind him unearned).

In the case of a runner being hit by a batted ball before it reaches a fielder, the nearest fielder is awarded an unassisted putout.

Edited by CrackpotTheory, 06 September 2009 - 10:11 AM.

[HighHeat]

I was at a short-season single A game with my daughter on Friday night and I saw an interesting, game-changing play.

Top 6, home team leading 3-1. Starting pitcher is still in the game and he quickly records the first two outs of the inning on popups. Next batter works a walk on 7 or 8 pitches, and the wheels start to come off. Next batter doubles to left, and that is followed by another walk to load the bases.

The next batter steps in and rips a ball down the RF line, clearing the bases and winding up on 2nd with a 3-run double, apparently giving the visiting team a 4-3 lead.

I say, "apparently" because the first baseman calls for the ball before the pitcher makes his first pitch to the next batter, and the runner on 2nd is called out on appeal for not touching 1st base. Since it was the third out of the inning and it goes down as a force out at first, all 3 runs came off the board, and the home team hung on to win the game by a final of 3-1.

It's not the most unusual thing I've ever seen, but I thought it was pretty cool.

[Rice4HOF]

....It's recorded as Catcher's Interference. Batter reaches base... but it essentially becomes a non plate appearance. It is not an AB, it is not a Plate Appearance, it does not change any stats at all.

Well, I learned something new today. I've been recording a CI as a plate appearance all these years (to the tune of maybe 1 or 2 per season), and giving the batter credit for reaching the base. After reading your post I looked it up, and sure enough the comment after the rule says:

Rule 10.21(f) Comment: For the purpose of computing on-base percentage, ignore instances of a batter being awarded first base on interference or obstruction.

[savage362]

Got another one.

Runner on 2nd, 1 out.

Strike 3 gets by the catcher for a passed ball. No throw is made to first, and runner on 2nd advances to 3rd. How do I score this?

I'm using DakStats to do the statistics and it gives me the options that he advanced to 3rd via error, obstruction, stolen base, or defensive indifference.

Can't be a SB since its the same as a passed ball where the runner advances and doesn't get credit for a SB. No obstruction. My thought is to just credit the runner with a Defensive Indifference since no play was even attempted on that runner.

[CrackpotTheory]

Unless I'm missing something, that sounds like a software issue and not a scoring issue. It's a PB. It's scored exactly the same as him advancing to 3rd on a PB on a 1-1 count.

[Rice4HOF]

Yeah, this is the same as an advance on a wild pitch or a passed ball, whether or not it's the 3rd dropped strike. If the pitch is scored a PB, then the runner advanced to 3rd on a PB. If the pitched is scored a WP, then the runner advances to 3rd on a WP.
(unless he was running on the pitch, in which case he is given the benefit of the doubt and credited with a stolen base)

[phrenile]

There is a common misconception that a force out has to be a tagging of the base. While that is the colloquial term, it really doesn't matter.

You're right that a tag can be considered a force out, but I'll go ahead and quibble with your examples. Neither involves a force out.

Which of these is a force out (meaning the run doesn't count)?

1. Runners on 2nd and 3rd. 1 out. Fly ball to right, the runner on 3rd tags and scores. The runner on second has a brain fart thinking there's two outs, doesn't tag. The RF throws to the SS covering second, who steps on the bag. Does the run count? (If you want to take it further, imagine the runner at 2nd being called out for appeal for leaving early. I've had many a softball argument over this).
Yes, the run counts. Even though the runner at 2B was out by having the base tagged, he was not forced to leave the base after the catch, so it's not a true force out.

It isn't a force out, because the force was removed by catching the fly ball under rule 7.08(e). Agreed.

2. Runner on third, two outs. Ground ball to SS (let's call him Lulio Jugo) who fields and throws up the line to first. The runner scores, then the 1B catches the ball, and tags the runner (after the runner crossed the plate). Does the run count?
No, run doesn't count. The batter was forced to run to first as a result of hitting the ball, so it's a force out, even though he was tagged. You can apply this same logic to the runner going to 2nd in Myt1's example.

No, that isn't a force out. The run doesn't score because of Rule 4.09(a)(1), not because of Rule 4.09(a)(2):

4.09 HOW A TEAM SCORES.
(a) One run shall be scored each time a runner legally advances to and touches first, second, third and home base before three men are put out to end the inning.

EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a play in which the third out is made

(1) by the batter runner before he touches first base;

(2) by any runner being forced out; or

(3) by a preceding runner who is declared out because he failed to touch one of the bases.

If a batter could be "forced out" at first base, then 4.09(a)(1) would be redundant with 4.09(a)(2). Similarly, half of Rule 6.05(j) would be redundant with 7.08(e):

6.05 A batter is out when- (j) After a third strike or after he hits a fair ball, he or first base is tagged before he touches first base;
7.08 Any runner is out when- (e) He fails to reach the next base before a fielder tags him or the base, after he has been forced to advance by reason of the batter becoming a runner.

Finally, a batter does not "occupy" home plate within the meaning of Rule 2.00's definition of force play ("A FORCE PLAY is a play in which a runner legally loses his right to occupy a base by reason of the batter becoming a runner."). He isn't a runner until after he's put the ball in play. Although "occupy" isn't defined in the rules, it involves touching the base as demonstrated by rules 7.03 and 7.08©(2).

[Fred not Lynn]

Odd occurance -- someone explain how to score THIS;

Middle inning of a game, men on 1st and 3rd. The runner on 1st goes to take 2nd, and winds up getting there, uncontested (becasue of the greater concern for the man on 3rd). I'm not sure if it would/should be scored a steal, Defensive Indifference...whatever. That's not the question this post is asking. The pitch was a ball, high, and got away from the catcher - but not enough to have the man on 3rd try to score.

Here's what happened next; The runner now on 2nd thought it was a foul, so he trots BACK to 1st - while the ball is live. No one thought to throw the ball there and tag him (probably because it was such an odd thing to do), so he gets back safe.

The coach goes to argue with the umpire (thinking that the umpire sent him back), and the umpire just kind of shrugs his sholders and said, "He did that on his own, I don't know why - but he's got to stay now that he's there". Coach can't argue this, so the play ends - with the guy back on 1st.

From a rules perspective, all is fine, he's where he belong -- but how on earth do you SCORE that play? You can't just eliminate the steal (or the DI, or is it a fielders choice since the catcher chose to hold the man on 3rd?)...he got it, right? So what is the notation for "Went Back"?

[BrazilianSoxFan]

From a rules perspective, all is fine, he's where he belong -- but how on earth do you SCORE that play? You can't just eliminate the steal (or the DI, or is it a fielders choice since the catcher chose to hold the man on 3rd?)...he got it, right? So what is the notation for "Went Back"?

It's not allowed to steal "backwards", so the ump screwed up. No idea what the notation for that is.

http://en.wikipedia....#Stealing_first

In baseball's earlier decades, a runner on second base could "steal" first base, perhaps with the intention of drawing a throw which might allow a runner on third to score (a tactic famously employed by Germany Schaefer). However, such a tactic was not recorded as a stolen base, and modern rules forbid going backwards on the basepaths in order to "confuse the defense or make a travesty of the game".

http://mlb.mlb.com/m...es/runner_7.jsp

7.08
Any runner is out when --
(i) After he has acquired legal possession of a base, he runs the bases in reverse order for the purpose of confusing the defense or making a travesty of the game. The umpire shall immediately call “Time” and declare the runner out;
Rule 7.08(i) Comment: If a runner touches an unoccupied base and then thinks the ball was caught or is decoyed into returning to the base he last touched, he may be put out running back to that base, but if he reaches the previously occupied base safely he cannot be put out while in contact with that base.

Edit: If I understand correctly, if it was a honest mistake the runner may be put back on second after the play was dead. Or he should try to get back to second and risk being put out. No idea what is right.

Edited by BrazilianSoxFan, 06 June 2010 - 07:42 PM.

[LoweTek]

From a rules perspective, all is fine, he's where he belong -- but how on earth do you SCORE that play? You can't just eliminate the steal (or the DI, or is it a fielders choice since the catcher chose to hold the man on 3rd?)...he got it, right? So what is the notation for "Went Back"?

Since there is no variation from the previous situation and no stat, I would leave the book unmarked except for the ball. Had the runner not retreated, since it got away from the catcher you would give him 2B on a PB or WP right, not DI or SB? Since the net outcome is no advance, then no PB or WP is recorded. It's just a ball in the count. There is nothing to score here, based on outcome unchanged from the previous pitch.

[Fred not Lynn]

Since there is no variation from the previous situation and no stat, I would leave the book unmarked except for the ball. Had the runner not retreated, since it got away from the catcher you would give him 2B on a PB or WP right, not DI or SB?

Actually, I mis-remembered the play. The ball did NOT get away, it was just high, which I guess is what led the runner to believe it was a foul.

[LoweTek]

Actually, I mis-remembered the play. The ball did NOT get away, it was just high, which I guess is what led the runner to believe it was a foul.

Well, that really calls into question the runner's logic then. Did the runner actually say he thought it was foul? Why would he think it was foul if it was simply caught high?

Anyhow, same scorebook result IMO. In the context of the entire play, there was no situation change and no travesty and no out, so no mark required. At the end of the play, he did not steal second since he was not there for the subsequent pitch. Think of it as you would a botched rundown where the runner wound up at his original base... You wouldn't mark for all the throws and chasing if no out was made.

[Rice4HOF]

Here's one that happened in my son's game last week.

Bottom of last/extra inning. Tie game. Winning run on 3rd base with less than 2 outs.

3 balls on batter. Ball 4 is a wild pitch, runner from 3rd scores. Batter doesn't bother walking to 1st base, just mobs the winning run at home plate.

Question:
1) Does the batter get credit /pitcher get charged for the walk?

2) Does the answer change if the batter does go to 1st base, or was the game over as soon as the winning run crossed the plate

[SoxScout]

This is the best I could find:

The official scorer shall score a base on balls whenever a batter is awarded first base because of four balls having been pitched outside the strike zone

If a batter awarded a base on balls is called out for refusing to advance to first base, the official scorer shall not credit the base on balls and shall charge a time at bat.

To answer #2:

The official scorer shall credit the batter with a base touched in the natural course of play, even if the winning run has scored moments before on the same play.

In other words, I'm not sure, but if he had gone to first, even after the run scored, it would have counted because he was advancing to that base.

Edited by SoxScout, 10 June 2010 - 01:31 AM.

[epraz]

SS your first quote is unambiguous. Be sure!

[LoweTek]

I give the batter and charge the pitcher with the BB. Batter did not refuse to go to 1B and was presumably not called out. If the bases were loaded, credit batter with an RBI. Otherwise WP scores the run.

[loshjott]

Here's one that I think I know the answer to, but I want more input.

Batter hits swinging bunt that dribbles along the 1B line. Pitcher and catcher approach the ball indifferently, look at it, and hope it goes foul. It doesn't, so the batter reaches first safely. Either fielder had time to pick the ball up and probably make the play. This is scored a hit, correct? I saw this play while watching my son's game with the father of another player. He swore up and down that the official scorer could score that play as a fielder's choice, even though no out was made. I disagreed. Who's right?

[Frisbetarian]

Here's one that I think I know the answer to, but I want more input.

Batter hits swinging bunt that dribbles along the 1B line. Pitcher and catcher approach the ball indifferently, look at it, and hope it goes foul. It doesn't, so the batter reaches first safely. Either fielder had time to pick the ball up and probably make the play. This is scored a hit, correct? I saw this play while watching my son's game with the father of another player. He swore up and down that the official scorer could score that play as a fielder's choice, even though no out was made. I disagreed. Who's right?

Yeah, it's a hit.

[Rice4HOF]

EVERY single time. And as a bonus, it looks like a line drive in the boxscore the next day

[dwightinright]

Here's one that I think I know the answer to, but I want more input.

Batter hits swinging bunt that dribbles along the 1B line. Pitcher and catcher approach the ball indifferently, look at it, and hope it goes foul. It doesn't, so the batter reaches first safely. Either fielder had time to pick the ball up and probably make the play. This is scored a hit, correct? I saw this play while watching my son's game with the father of another player. He swore up and down that the official scorer could score that play as a fielder's choice, even though no out was made. I disagreed. Who's right?

He doesn't know the definition of fielder's choice.

FIELDER’S CHOICE is the act of a fielder who handles a fair grounder and,
instead of throwing to first base to put out the batter-runner, throws to another base in an
attempt to put out a preceding runner. The term is also used by scorers (a) to account for the
advance of the batter-runner who takes one or more extra bases when the fielder who
handles his safe hit attempts to put out a preceding runner; (b) to account for the advance of
a runner (other than by stolen base or error) while a fielder is attempting to put out another
runner; and © to account for the advance of a runner made solely because of the defensive
team’s indifference (undefended steal).

[loshjott]

Here's one that I think I know the answer to, but I want more input.

Batter hits swinging bunt that dribbles along the 1B line. Pitcher and catcher approach the ball indifferently, look at it, and hope it goes foul. It doesn't, so the batter reaches first safely. Either fielder had time to pick the ball up and probably make the play. This is scored a hit, correct? I saw this play while watching my son's game with the father of another player. He swore up and down that the official scorer could score that play as a fielder's choice, even though no out was made. I disagreed. Who's right?


He doesn't know the definition of fielder's choice.

FIELDER’S CHOICE is the act of a fielder who handles a fair grounder and,
instead of throwing to first base to put out the batter-runner, throws to another base in an
attempt to put out a preceding runner. The term is also used by scorers (a) to account for the
advance of the batter-runner who takes one or more extra bases when the fielder who
handles his safe hit attempts to put out a preceding runner; (b) to account for the advance of
a runner (other than by stolen base or error) while a fielder is attempting to put out another
runner; and © to account for the advance of a runner made solely because of the defensive
team’s indifference (undefended steal)

So according to this quote, an out does not have to be made in a fielder's choice situation. In my example, if the catcher picked up the ball and threw to 2nd, but not in time to get the runner from first, that play is a fielder's choice rather than a hit.

[Ed Hillel]

That's correct, Losh.

[Rice4HOF]

New question... Had this occur in a game on the weekend.

Routine ground ball just to the right of 1st base. The first baseman literally boots it. He sort of trips over his feet and kicks the ball behind the second baseman as he was trying to pick it up. The second basemen alertly dives for the ball, picks it up and and fires back to the first baseman who has gotten back to his bag. But the throw is a little high, and the 1st baseman needs to jump off the bag to catch the ball. When he comes down, the runner is safe.

Who gets charged with the error?

The 1st baseman made the first error by kicking the ball away, and should get an error charged for that.
But the 2nd baseman still had a chance to get the out, and his bad throw prevented the out from being made. Usually if you can get an out, except for a poor throw, you charge the fielder who threw the ball with an error.

This is definitely not an infield hit, and with ordinary effort the 1st baseman should have made the play, and you can only charge one error on the play, so who gets charged with it?

[Myt1]

Why can you only charge one error?