120 replies to this topic

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

A couple of weeks ago I was perusing some other blogs and happened upon Royals Review and noticed that they had Top 100 Royals of all time (I think that they're up to about 30 or so) and I wanted to do the same thing for the Sox. But I didn't want it to be one man's opinion.

This got me thinking.

What I propose that we do is similar to what is being done in Sean Berry's awesome Greatest of All Time thread (BTW, if you haven't checked it out, go to the MLB section after reading this). For the next few months we're going to embark on something that should be pretty cool and will also be a nicel introduction the Sons of Sam Horn .com site. Each week we're going to do is nominate 20 of the greatest Red Sox players and then vote on those same players the following week. If there are 25 players nominated, we will only vote on the top 20. Those extra players (also those who didn't make the week's voting cut) will be tossed back into the nomination thread. The 20 players with the most nomination votes will move to the following weeks votes, so even if 15 people have nominated someone, you should nominate that player too; just in case.

Unlike the GOAT thread, you can nominate as many players as you want. But like the GOAT thread the nominees have to be bolded. If they aren't bolded, they won't count. You will then go to the .com site and vote in the poll (it will be linked in the poll thread), I'm still working out the details now with other dopes but all will be explained very soon. The nominations and polls close on Friday morning.

The one thing that you will notice is that this is going to be a count down (1-100), not a count up (100-1). There are two reasons for this:

1. I couldn't figure out how we could get an accurate count up
2. I think that the top ten is going to be pretty anticlimactic. I can pretty much guarantee who 1-5 are going to be, what I'm interested in hearing who number 43 or 19 or 76 is and why.

And that's another thing, feel free to question other choices and be prepared to defend yours. This is supposed to be a fun topic and hopefully, we'll spark some really interesting discussions. And also, any reasons why you think that your Sox player should be in the top 100 will be used. If you want to look at it from a numbers perspective, go for it. If you want to look at it from word-of-mouth POV, awesome. If you want to base it on both, even better.

I'll get it started off with seven players:

Ted Williams
Carl Yastrzemski
Pedro Martinez
Roger Clemens
Tris Speaker
Jimmie Foxx
Manny Ramirez

Let me know if there are any questions.

[Trautwein's Degree]

Ted Williams

Edited by Trautwein's Degree, 14 June 2009 - 09:51 PM.

[OilCanShotTupac]

Great idea for a thread. A good friend is one of the writers at Faith and Fear in Flushing, a Mets blog that counted up from 100. Very entertaining.

Cy Young
Carlton Fisk
Jim Rice


for a couple of obvious ones. I am also interested mostly in the lower tiers. To do this right, we'll have to do some pretty thorough research - there are probably a bunch of guys in the first half of the 20th century who deserve consideration and with whom we're not familair.

[BoSox Rule]

Ted Williams
Carl Yastrzemski
Pedro Martinez
Roger Clemens
Tris Speaker
Jimmie Foxx
Manny Ramirez
Lefty Grove
Wade Boggs
Roger Clemens

[5belongstoGeorge]

Babe Ruth?

For me it would be easier to segregate by era or decade unless this is strictly a statistical evaluation.

What criteria are you using to determine the top? I have no argument with the picks so far.

[Smead Jolley]

Bobby Doerr
Johnny Pesky
Dom DiMaggio
Jimmy Collins
Babe Ruth
Lefty Grove
Dwight Evans
Jim Rice
Reggie Smith
Mo Vaughn
Nomar Garciaparra
Harry Hooper
Larry Gardner
Rico Petrocelli
Rough Carrigan

OK, I understand now that we're only nominating players for the top 10. I'll add a new post with my list for the top 10 in bold. I was mentioning these guys as worthy for the top 100.

Edited by Smead Jolley, 17 June 2009 - 07:23 AM.

[Gunfighter 09]

Curt Schilling
Dwight Evans
Luis Tiant

[OilCanShotTupac]

just went over to the Sox all-time leaders page for hitters at b-r to do some poking around for this, and this is so incredible, I have to post it.


This is the list of single season leaders for OBP in Red Sox history:

On-Base%
Rank Player OBP Year
1. Ted Williams .553 1941
2. Ted Williams .526 1957
3. Ted Williams .513 1954
4. Ted Williams .499 1942
5. Ted Williams .499 1947
6. Ted Williams .497 1946
7. Ted Williams .497 1948
8. Ted Williams .496 1955
9. Ted Williams .490 1949
10. Ted Williams .479 1956

That's right:

-Ted's tenth-best year is better than anyone else's best single season ever in Red Sox history.
-Dude had three years where he got on base HALF THE TIME OR MORE (and six more years where he got on base 49% of the time).

That's just ridiculous.

Edited by OilCanShotTupac, 14 June 2009 - 08:31 PM.

[Monbo Jumbo]

Ted Williams
Bobby Doerr
Joe Cronin
Carl Yastrezemski
Carlton Fisk

[Smead Jolley]

...
That's right:

-Ted's tenth-best year is better than anyone else's best single season ever in Red Sox history.
-Dude had three years where he got on base HALF THE TIME OR MORE (and six more years where he got on base 49% of the time).

That's just ridiculous.

It's also ridiculous that many baseball people in his time said he was selfish for not swinging at pitches that weren't in the strike zone.

Players that have been on base 50% or more of the time in a season since 1900;
Splinter
Ruth
Bonds
McGraw
Hornsby
Mantle
, and that's it.
Three players did it in 1894, when the pitcher's mound was moved back to its present distance.

Edited by Smead Jolley, 14 June 2009 - 10:02 PM.

[Rasputin]

How much should we be taking position into account?

the Red Sox have had an astonishing lack of quality at catcher for a team that has been around this long.

I'm pretty sure Jason Varitek is the second best catcher this team has ever had and I have a hard time believing the second best catcher isn't in the top 100 players.

[Gunfighter 09]

Since he is going to be the team's career saves leader with three more:

Jonathan Paplebon.

[SoxScout]

To get the ball rolling, some names based on production and longevity..

Ted Williams
Roger Clemens
Carl Yastrzemski
Cy Young
Dwight Evans
Tim Wakefield
Jim Rice
Pedro Martinez
Wade Boggs
Mel Parnell
Bobby Doerr
Lefty Grove
Harry Hooper
Luis Tiant
Tris Speaker
Bob Stanley
Manny Ramirez
Joe Wood
Dom DiMaggio
Frank Sullivan

I think this concept is going to get very interesting starting in week 2, and especially 3.

[E5 Yaz]

Mel Parnell

[Jack Sox]

David Ortiz is most definitely among the top 100 Red Sox of all Time.

[mabrowndog]

Since he is going to be the team's career saves leader with three more:

Jonathan Paplebon.

Uhhh...

Spelling counts, dude.

Sincerely,
The Ghose of Cuzittt

[joyofsox]

Carl Mays

[Cuzittt]

David Ortiz is most definitely among the top 100 Red Sox of all Time.

Not to say he wouldn't be in the Top 10... but that is really what we are nominating right now. We aren't trying to discern the Top 100 in one week.

[Trautwein's Degree]

Not to say he wouldn't be in the Top 10... but that is really what we are nominating right now. We aren't trying to discern the Top 100 in one week.

Aren't we trying to nominate the top 20 this week?

[Eric Van]

There are many obvious choices. And then there are players whose ranking in this Top 100 has a potential to be way too low. Which is why, for the time being, I will skip over the former and bullet my ballot.

Dwight "Dewey" Evans.

Is he Top 10? Well, how many players played virtually their entire career with the Sox and were legitimate HOFers?

Someone should compile the Win Shares totals accrued while a member of the Red Sox.

[shepard50]

I have no problem with any of the above nominees (though I am surprised to see Manny Ramirez and Joe Wood on only one list).

Shocked that no one has said David Ortiz (I see that it happened as I was typing),

and hello, Jimmy Foxx!

[BoSoxFink]

Quick question, does it have to be players that played a really longtime with the Red Sox? Or is it any player that had a great career but only played a short time with the Sox. If it is the former than Lefty Grove would have to be in there too.

[Cuzittt]

Ted Williams
Carl Yastrzemski
Pedro Martinez
Roger Clemens
Tris Speaker
Jimmie Foxx
Manny Ramirez

I agree with JMOH on these seven.

Wade Boggs - Second to Williams in Sox Career BA/3rd to Williams and Speaker in Sox Career OBP.
Jim Rice and Dwight Evans - In the top 5 in Games Played for the Sox
Babe Ruth - Ruth is going to be one of these players which is going to be hard to categorize. Only 6 seasons... But lead the league in ERA (in 1916... where he hit more HRs (3) than he gave up (0))... before becoming the offensive force he is now known for (leading the league in HRs in 1918 and 1919).
Cy Young - In his final season in Boston... at Age 41, Young completed 30 of 33 games and put up an ERA+ of 194. His other 7 years in Boston were pretty good too.

[Cuzittt]

Aren't we trying to nominate the top 20 this week?

I'm not sure. The title indicates top 10... and I think we are looking to nominate 20 to vote into the top 10.

[brs3]

Cy Young
Roger Clemens
Pedro Martinez
Ted Williams
Yaz
Manny Ramirez
Wade Boggs
Tris Speaker


Later on, maybe during the 90-100th, I'll nominate Jody Reed. If he didn't F up signing a long term deal with LA, they possibly would not have traded Pedro to Montreal for Delino DeShields, and things could have turned out a lot differently.

[Scott Cooper]

First off,

Am I crazy for nominating

Nomar Garciaparra?
David Ortiz
Pedro Martinez
Yaz
Ruth
Foxx
Jim Rice
Ted Williams
Wade Boggs.

Edit - Forgot about Clemens

Edited by Scott Cooper, 15 June 2009 - 07:08 PM.

[SoxScout]

Boston Red Sox Player Career Batting Register

Boston Red Sox Player Career Pitching Register

Quick question, does it have to be players that played a really longtime with the Red Sox? Or is it any player that had a great career but only played a short time with the Sox.

This will be the cause of many debates, long term steadiness vs. short term domination.... Doerr vs. Manny, for example.

[LahoudOrBillyC]

Joe Cronin
An easy top 10 choice for me.

I figure 10 years should be a minimum to get into the top 10, and that will whittle the list down pretty quickly.

[Sinistas]

First off,

Am I crazy for nominating

Nomar Garciaparra?
David Ortiz
Pedro Martinez
Yaz
Ruth
Foxx
Jim Rice
Ted Williams
Wade Boggs.

Edit - Forgot about Clemens

You didn't nominate any of them - nominations must be in bold.

[SeanBerry]

Since we are picking the 1-10 I have decided to nominate 10.

In no order:

Ted Williams
Carl Yastremski
Pedro Martinez
Roger Clemens
Wade Boggs
Manny Ramirez
Bobby Doerr
Cy Young
Tris Speaker
Jim Rice

It speaks to the amazing history of the Red Sox that I am leaving out guys like Fred Lynn, Dwight Evans, Carlton Fisk, David Ortiz, Jimmie Foxx and more.

[Sinistas]

Ted Williams
Pedro Martinez
Cy Young
Carl Yastremski
Carlton Fisk
Tris Speaker
Wade Boggs
Roger Clemens
Babe Ruth
Manny Ramirez
Jim Rice
Jimmie Foxx
Dom DiMaggio

[Ed Hillel]

Ted Williams
Pedro Martinez
Manny Ramirez
Cy Young
Carl Yastremski
Tris Speaker
Wade Boggs
Bobby Doerr
Carlos Quintana
Jim Rice
David Ortiz

[Skiponzo]

Ted Williams
Carl Yastrzemski
Babe Ruth
Tris Speaker
Jimmy Foxx
Roger Clemens
Pedro Martinez
Smokey Joe Wood
Joe Cronin
Carlton Fisk
Dwight Evans
Wade Boggs
Dick Radatz
Jonathan Papelbon
Luis Tiant
Jim Rice
Rough Carrigan
Harry Hooper
Bobby Doerr
Dom Dimaggio
Johnny Pesky

[BoSoxFink]

Ted Williams
Pedro Martinez
Carl Yastrzemski
Jimmie Foxx
Manny Ramirez
Bobby Doerr
Carlton Fisk
Cy Young
Roger Clemens
Babe Ruth

Edited by BoSoxFink, 14 June 2009 - 10:57 PM.

[MentalDisabldLst]

We really need some clarification on whether to be a "Top Red Sox", your entire career is taken into consideration or only the part of your career that you spent playing for the Red Sox. Otherwise every single debate is going to come down to individually arguing that point, rather than getting more substantive.

Obviously in the more generic GOAT threads, a player's entire career was in play because who they played for really didn't have much bearing on a Greatest Of All Time debate. But here that's a very important question.

To drive this point home with an extreme example, consider Tom Seaver. One of the greatest players to ever pick up a baseball. Played for the Red Sox. But his tenure with the Sox, alone, would certainly not place him among the greatest Red Sox of all time. So is it the whole career, or just the career with the Red Sox?

If the former, you'll get entries like Tom Seaver, and if the latter, then players prior to 1974 are going to have extra weighting here because they couldn't really move among teams like modern players can, so you'll have more "Red Sox lifers". Either way there's a downside (though I personally think the latter has less downside), so we need a little clarification from JMOH.

[Rice4HOF]

How much should we be taking position into account?

the Red Sox have had an astonishing lack of quality at catcher for a team that has been around this long.

I'm pretty sure Jason Varitek is the second best catcher this team has ever had and I have a hard time believing the second best catcher isn't in the top 100 players.

Well... he's #18 all time for hits by a Red Sox player. Ahead of guys such as Vaughn, Foxx, George Scott, Reggie Smith, David Ortiz and even Fisk (longevity counts for something, I guess). So putting him in the top 100 would not be a stretch by any means.

[jippaman]

We really need some clarification on whether to be a "Top Red Sox", your entire career is taken into consideration or only the part of your career that you spent playing for the Red Sox. Otherwise every single debate is going to come down to individually arguing that point, rather than getting more substantive.

I'm taking "Top Red Sox" to mean while in a Sox uniform, so my nominations for the Top 10 are (in no particular order except for that first name):

Ted
Yaz
Pedro
Clemens
Manny
Cronin
Doerr
Rice
Boggs
Speaker
Foxx
Dewey
Ortiz
Dom
Ruth
Cy
Fisk
Pesky

Edit: I realize I put down 18 names, but I think outside of the top 6 or 7 obvious choices, there is serious debate over the final 3-4 spots in the Top 10.

Edited by jippaman, 15 June 2009 - 12:02 AM.

[Fishercat]

Pitchers

Cy Young - Third most starts in team history, and for his time period, a damn good pitcher too. Even if most of his career wasn't in Boston.

Roger Clemens - Team leader in starts for one more month, and outside of Pedro Martinez, Cy Young, Lefty Grove, and Smoky Joe Wood, it's hard to find anyone with even 100 starts for this team who matches up at all with Roger, steroid accusations aside (it seems like most of that happened in his post-Sox days, so it'll be interesting to see how that is factored in).

Pedro Martinez - It says a lot when your team's all-time leader in ERA+ for guys with five starts or more is one with over 200. Of course, only relievers are ahead of him in that, and the two with more than 40 innings are Okajima and Papelbon. May just be the most dominating pitcher that any of us have seen in a while.

Hitters

Ted Williams - Here's a fun list of numbers. 2, 1, 1, 1, 1, 5, 4, 2, 2, 5, 7, 3, 4, 4, 8, 6, 26, 21, 9791, 13. Those are the number of plate appearances for those in the Top 20 in Red Sox OPS all-time. Obviously, the 9791 is Ted Williams. Other than Jimmie Foxx, no one is within 100 points of Ted Williams' Red Sox OPS who has had more than 26 PAs in the uniform. If you adjust it for era, Ruth is tied with him (with around 8,000 less chances), and Tris Speaker is the next highest ranking among significant players: with less than half the PAs and an OPS+ of 25 points less. Yeah, he was good.

Tris Speaker - Second all-time in team SB, an MVP, only behind Williams and Boggs for BA, top 6 in league OPS for every full season in Boston, and it seems like he did pretty much everything. He was fast, he hit for power, contact, he was a machine in his time in Boston (and for the rest of his career). Suffice to say, it would have been nice if they didn't try to make him take a pay cut and then trade his butt when he refused. But that's early baseball for you.

Carl Yastrzemski - The face of the Red Sox for two decades, for the most part. He saw the plate three thousand more times than any other Red Sox in history, played in 18 ASG as a representative of the team, seven-time GGer, the last triple crown winner, and in a statistical sense, he was one of the most prolific hitters in Sox history. Second in HRs, first in hits (by 800), first in doubles (by over 100), third in SBs (even if he was very bad at it), first in runs, and even is 18th in OPS+ among Sox players with over 1000 PA (and that's only two seasons of play. Bring the number up to 4000 PA, and he's 7th (well, until Ortiz has 20 more).

Manny Ramirez - Yes, he was (is) a headcase. And yes, he forced his way out of town. With that said, it's hard to think of a more fearsome hitter in the AL while he was a Red Sox, and he made the players surrounding him in the lineup better just because of the fear he struck into pitchers...well, and the huge numbers help. 17th all-time in team PAs, and only Williams was definitively a better hitter (I put him and Speaker very close, and Boggs could have an argument too if only for his position with stats). Only Boggs and Nomar are ahead of him from this era (say, past 25 years)...in batting average, and we all know his talent was in his power. When you go to OBP, Nomar drops off of that list. When you go to slugging, Boggs clearly falls off, and only Papi compares among active Sox.

Wade Boggs - The last serious pick, IMO. A third baseman who hit around .340 in an era that wasn't exactly the late 1990's, who had nearly 7500 PAs with the team, and who walked a lot to boot. One of the top 3Bs of his era offensively and wasn't a horrid glove either. He's not Ted or Tris, but he's Top 10 for me.

Anyway, the remainder will just be names who I think should be in the discussion, though I'm not sold on their Top 10-ness, I think discussion would be beneficial

Dwight Evans - That many PAs with an above average bat
Nomar Garciaparra - Sure, it was a short streak, but one of the best MIs we've ever had, at least in the last few decades
David Ortiz - Superior power bat in a land of power bats
Jimmie Foxx - HoF, almost 4,000 PAs with an OPS over 1
Joe Cronin - The Sox lack of MIs and his performance may require a look, though I put him in another group
Carlton Fisk - Probably the best Sox catcher, at least with a bat
Jim Rice - A HoF who spent his entire career in Boston, deserves a look on reputation as well as quality of power stats
Bobby Doerr - Between him, Lynn, and Vaughn was tough, but I have to stop it somewhere for hitters, and he was a middle of the field player for us, and I think he has a little more value than Lynn all things considered.
Lefty Grove - 1500 innings of top-tier baseball, I think he's lower but still he's one of the Sox all-time great pitchers.
Joe Wood - See Lefty Grove
Mel Parnell - I don't think he's Top 10, but of pitchers, the Sox group isn't exactly distinguished of long-time performers so I think if we split it up by position, he may be in the hunt.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

For the record, I took it as only considering their tenure in a Red Sox uniform, not the greatest players who happened to wear the Sox' uni at least once.

On Varitek, he has to be Top 100, hell, I even gave a passing glance for this list to the guy (his offense just wasn't good enough and won't be until the middle IMO), but the catcher for two Sox champions, several no-nos, with a + bat for his position and a long-term performance record for the team has got to be up there.

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

I'm not sure. The title indicates top 10... and I think we are looking to nominate 20 to vote into the top 10.

That's correct. I want there to be a bit of interest in where players will fall.

And the voting is based on what the player did as a Boston Red Sox. Juan Maracial, Tom Seaver, John Smoltz (to name a few) would all be in the top 20 if we took into account their entire body of work. But, it's just what they did while they were in Boston.

I know a few folks have asked what criteria are you basing it on? That's the beauty of this and the GOAT thread, you can base it on whatever criteria you determine. If you want to go all numbers, go for it. If you want to go with your memories, that's fine. I know that I'm going to nominate Dave Henderson towards the end of the poll not because he put up incredible numbers, but because he made me a Sox fan. Whether people agree or not, that's up to them.

But I see no shame in nominating and supporting your favorite player. That's what this exercise is all about.

[URI]

Ted Williams
Carl Yastrzemski
Pedro Martinez
Roger Clemens
Babe Ruth
Bobby Doerr
Dwight Evans
Wade Boggs
Manny Ramirez
Tris Speaker
Carlton Fisk
Joe Cronin
Jimmie Foxx
Jim Rice
Lefty Grove
Nomar Garciaparra
Mo Vaughn
Fred Lynn
David Ortiz
Cy Young

[SeanBerry]

Jeff...

Harry Hooper over Jim Rice? I am going to stab you in the face next time I see you. I also hate your Babe Ruth over Wade Boggs move as well but that at least makes some sense.

[URI]

Jeff...

Harry Hooper over Jim Rice? I am going to stab you in the face next time I see you. I also hate your Babe Ruth over Wade Boggs move as well but that at least makes some sense.

You sir, have jumped the gun a bit.

[Lose Remerswaal]

Since he has his own thread elsewhere, and the poll seems to think he's the best ever, and since I saw Rough Carrigan nominated . . .

Terry Francona

[OilCanShotTupac]

That's correct. I want there to be a bit of interest in where players will fall.

And the voting is based on what the player did as a Boston Red Sox. Juan Maracial, Tom Seaver, John Smoltz (to name a few) would all be in the top 20 if we took into account their entire body of work. But, it's just what they did while they were in Boston.

I know a few folks have asked what criteria are you basing it on? That's the beauty of this and the GOAT thread, you can base it on whatever criteria you determine. If you want to go all numbers, go for it. If you want to go with your memories, that's fine. I know that I'm going to nominate Dave Henderson towards the end of the poll not because he put up incredible numbers, but because he made me a Sox fan. Whether people agree or not, that's up to them.

But I see no shame in nominating and supporting your favorite player. That's what this exercise is all about.

I think that, as we get into the lower reaches of the Top 100, there will be several guys who merit inclusion based on a single extraordinary moment. Dave Roberts is a great example, as is Hendu. Undoubtedly there have been more than 100 guys whose body of work in a Sox uniform is more statistically impressive, but any Top 100 without these two is absurd, IMO.

Edited by OilCanShotTupac, 15 June 2009 - 10:18 AM.

[Razor Shines]

Nomar Garciaparra
Lefty Grove
Manny Ramirez

[tonyandpals]

Ted Williams
Carl Yastrzemski
Pedro Martinez
Roger Clemens
Cy Young
Jimmie Foxx
Wade Boggs
Bobby Doerr
Manny Ramirez
Jim Rice

[DaughtersofDougMirabelli]

Bobby Doerr
Joe Cronin
Johnny Pesky
Carl Yastrzemski
Ted Williams
Carlton Fisk
Roger Clemens
Wade Boggs
Pedro Martinez
Manny Ramirez

[sibpin]

Jonathan Papelbon, to my knowledge, has led the Sox in Championship-Weighted WPA in the Theo era and likely is the post-1918 leader as well. Yes, he's even ahead of David Ortiz.

[Cuzittt]

Since he has his own thread elsewhere, and the poll seems to think he's the best ever, and since I saw Rough Carrigan nominated . . .

Terry Francona

Rough Carrigan was a catcher as well as a manager... and the first post does specifically talk about Red Sox players.

Not that I would have nominated Rough in the top 10 based on his playing career...

I suppose we should get a clarification on the Player/Coach issue.

[OilCanShotTupac]

Rough Carrigan was a catcher as well as a manager... and the first post does specifically talk about Red Sox players.

Not that I would have nominated Rough in the top 10 based on his playing career...

I suppose we should get a clarification on the Player/Coach issue.

Well, for that matter, if non-players are to be included, Theo Epstein definitely ranks in the Top 100, probably in the Top 25, and higher than Francona, IMO.

It's an interesting question. What would a list of top Celtics be without Red Auerbach? Etc.