316 replies to this topic

[Div School Sox Fan]

Quote

Let me ask you this.  If Choi, Pena and Snow were all availible as free agents in December, who do you think the Sox would and should have signed?  Personally, I would have gone with Choi over Pena, and Pena over Snow.  Given that, it seems kind of lame for Snow to get the job simply because he has a guaranteed contract.

I don't think that follows. Even better than having Choi, would be having Choi and Snow. The only way to have both players, at this point, is to send Choi to AAA.

Further, the reason for Choi's superiority to Snow is his value as a possible regular when a 1B/3B job opens up. Playing Choi in AAA doesn't harm his value as injury depth at all - arguably, it'll be better for him to keep playing everyday.

Snow, on the other hand, will be playing a lot of late inning defense - a job that Choi would be unlikely to handle much better than Youkilis. The job descriptions of backup 1B and injury replacement 1B are not necessarily the same.

If Snow really sucks as a backup, or plays relatively poorly as a regular, I'll probably be complaining then. But up to now, I think the roster plans around the corners make sense. I do think that this year will be much more of a test for Tito than previous seasons. It'll be interesting to see how he handles a roster than isn't built for push-button managing. Too many questions marks like Lowell and Schilling, and too many kids to evaluate like Youks, Pena and Li'l Papi - the original April rotation of playing time will likely require significant editing as the season goes along.

[satyadaimoku]

Rudy Pemberton, on Mar 27 2006, 11:28 AM, said:

Again, I'll bring up the same question. Why not release Cora, Seanez, Tavarez, and Lowell and replace them with Pedroia, Hansen, Delcarmen, and Choi?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I feel like I was answering that question, but maybe I need to do so more directly. Between Cora and Pedroia, and between Seanez/Tavarez and Hansen/MDC, I think that the balance between the need for depth and the need to put the best possible 25 men on the roster swings in favor of the veterens. In Pedroia's case, it is not clear at all that Pedroia is a better player than Cora. Cora is an established player who can hit acceptably for his position and play good defense. Pedroia may be better than that, but he very likely is not; at the least, his case isn't nearly as strong as Choi or Carlos Pena.

As for Seanez/Tavarez v. Hansen/MDC, I think with pitchers, the need for depth is significantly more important than the need for depth at first base. It is virtually certain that the team will need substantial support from relievers beyond the 11 currently on the roster. Given that, the balance between cutting a decent but inferior veteren (like Seanez) for a better player with options (Hansen) swings the other way.

Edited by satyadaimoku, 27 March 2006 - 01:19 PM.

[LateRally]

I keep seeing posts speculating about potential adjustment issues with Choi because of the BH Kim "precendent." This is pure inanity. Kim was not a headcase because he was Korean and couldn't adjust culturally; he was a headcase because, well, he's a headcase. This should be obvious, but people of any given race or ethnicity can run the gamut from easy-going to certifiable. It's called being human. It's pretty ridiculous IMO to make any conclusions about how Choi will fit in based on Kim's tenure here. This would be like saying all Dominicans can't adjust to playing in MLB by citing one case of a Dominican player who was a nutjob.

[Eddie Jurak]

An interesting issue with Choi might be coming up.

According to today's Globe, Choi made his major league debut over three seasons ago. Because of this, he needs to pass through revocable waivers in order to be optioned to Pawtucket. Presumably, the Sox will waive him for this purpose, making him the final ST cut.

But what if he is claimed? Will they let him go, or pull him back? If they pull him back, then they will need to find a place on the roster for him. If they don't, they could be letting the next Ortiz go for free for the sake of a $2 million investment in the ancient JT Snow.

[Harry Hooper]

From Snow in the Glob:

Quote

Hee Seop Choi, who has a minor league option remaining, stands to be the last cut. Because he debuted in the majors more than three years ago, Choi will have to clear revocable waivers to be optioned. He's expected to clear, given that the Sox were able to claim him last week, after all 16 NL teams passed on him and the AL teams with a better 2005 record than the Sox passed on him. His eventual demotion will get the club to 25.

Is this correct? I thought MLB eliminated the distinction between leagues for waiver claims. The revocable waivers thing doesn't sound right either.



Edit: added link

Edited by Harry Hooper, 29 March 2006 - 09:16 AM.

[Rudy Pemberton]

Quote

If they don't, they could be letting the next Ortiz go for free for the sake of a $2 million investment in the ancient JT Snow.

Or they could be wasting $2M and letting a serviceable backup 1B go, a guy who is content in his role as a part-time player and excellent defensive replacement (which this club values) in order to pick up the next Jeremy Giambi.

Or they could be holding onto Mike Lowell's carcass to let the next Ortiz (or Giambi) go.

Hope the 17 days of Stern is worth losing the next Big Papi.

Etc, etc.

It's all about perspective. Who the heck knows?

[BCsMightyJoeYoung]

Quote

An interesting issue with Choi might be coming up.

According to today's Globe, Choi made his major league debut over three seasons ago. Because of this, he needs to pass through revocable waivers in order to be optioned to Pawtucket. Presumably, the Sox will waive him for this purpose, making him the final ST cut.

But what if he is claimed? Will they let him go, or pull him back? If they pull him back, then they will need to find a place on the roster for him. If they don't, they could be letting the next Ortiz go for free for the sake of a $2 million investment in the ancient JT Snow.

I saw this as well and thought the same thing. As he passed through just about all of MLB last time the only threat might be the Yanquis .. in fact, that would be a pretty shrewd move on their behalf. Don't they still need a 1B? Or are they still being delusional with Giambi as the everyday 1B.

If it came down to a choice between Choi and Snow I sure hope they decide to cut Snow ..

[grinwell]

I would guess that if Choi got claimed, they'd pull him back and option DiNardo. Then Wells would replace Stern instead of DiNardo in midApril.

[TheoShmeo]

BCsMightyJoeYoung, on Mar 29 2006, 09:17 AM, said:

I saw this as well and thought the same thing. As he passed through just about all of MLB last time the only threat might be the Yanquis .. in fact, that would be a pretty shrewd move on their behalf. Don't they still need a 1B? Or are they still being delusional with Giambi as the everyday 1B.

If it came down to a choice between Choi and Snow I sure hope they decide to cut Snow ..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Yankees' back-up 1b is righty Andy Phillips. If they added Choi, they would be faced with two lefty 1b (including Giambi) or carrying three 1b. It doesn't seem like they would do either, but I guess it's possible.

[Rudy Pemberton]

Actually, I imagine the Yanks would claim Snow if the Sox dropped him, for whatever that's worth.

[Vermonter At Large]

In a play-by-play I was watching during last night's game, there was a reference to Choi leaving the game with an injury (presumably minor). Does anybody know anything about this?

[Country Sinker]

Vermonter At Large, on Mar 29 2006, 09:35 AM, said:

In a play-by-play I was watching during last night's game, there was a reference to Choi leaving the game with an injury (presumably minor).  Does anybody know anything about this?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hee-Seop Choi tweaked his left hamstring during Tuesday's game against the Reds, and he'll be examined on Wednesday.

RedSox.com

[Bowlerman9]

Ive never heard of this "three year" rule that Snow talks about. In fact, I'm pretty sure he's wrong on that.

Considering he didnt take the time to learn the arbitration compensation rules, I'm not about to believe him on this option rule I've never heard about.

[URI]

Snow is wrong about the options and the waivers.

The whole idea behind the option rule is to send people to the minors without using waivers. Snow probably googled Neyer's transaction primer from a few years ago and cribbed that for his article.

Neyer says:

Quote

After three years as a pro, a player must be protected on a team's 40-man roster, or he is eligible for the Rule 5 draft (more on that later). Once he's served those three years, and assuming he is added to the 40-man roster, his club then has what are called "options" on him.

When a player is on the 40-man roster but not on the 25-man Major League roster, he is on "optional assignment." One common misconception about the rules is that a player may only be "optioned out" three times. Actually, each player has three option years, and he can be sent up and down as many times as the club chooses within those three seasons.

When you hear that a player is "out of options," that means he's been on the 40-man roster during three different seasons, beginning with his fourth as a pro, and to be sent down again he'll have to clear waivers (more on those below).

The last paragrah is poorly written. The sentence should have been written ...he's been on the 40-man roster and send to the minors during three different seasons...

If Choi has options, he can absolutely be sent to the minors without waivers, unless he has 5 years of service time (which he doesn't) and he can refuse the minors assignmnet.

[embecker]

Anyone want to bet that a visit to the DL conveniently helps the Sox manage the cut to 25 men?

Country Sinker, on Mar 29 2006, 10:06 AM, said:

Hee-Seop Choi tweaked his left hamstring during Tuesday's game against the Reds, and he'll be examined on Wednesday.

RedSox.com

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[SaveBooFerriss]

embecker, on Mar 29 2006, 04:48 PM, said:

Anyone want to bet that a visit to the DL conveniently helps the Sox manage the cut to 25 men?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As URI just pointed out, there is no need to do that. He can be sent down.

[woofer]

Skins24, on Mar 29 2006, 09:55 AM, said:

As URI just pointed out, there is no need to do that.  He can be sent down.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Although putting him on the DL would preserve his option in the case that Snow/Lowell get hurt early in the year. Probably not factoring into their decision-- just a thought.

[Titans Bastard]

Snow's mention of waiver rules is wrong on multiple levels.

1. The NL/AL distinction for waivers was abolished a few years ago.

2. Team with worse 2005 records than the Sox in the AL passed on him (along with teams with worse records in the NL), not teams with better.



There are rules about waivers and options with players with certain amounts of service time. For example, players with less than five years of professional service time can get a fourth option and players with more than five years of major league service time can refuse an option. Since none of these stipulations apply to Choi, I don't see why he would have to pass through waivers. It's just sloppy reporting from Snow; I don't see why tackling baseball's transaction rules wouldn't be one of the first background tasks for a beat writer.

[The Gray Eagle]

I don't see why he wouldn't have asked the Red Sox about whether Aesop Choi would have to be waived again. They surely would have told him the real deal.

[Bowlerman9]

woofer, on Mar 29 2006, 12:50 PM, said:

Although putting him on the DL would preserve his option in the case that Snow/Lowell get hurt early in the year.  Probably not factoring into their decision-- just a thought.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

At the same time, what if they DONT need him?

In order to activate him from the DL, they would need to clear a roster spot on the 25 man roster. This is before they can option him to AAA. That player cant be called up for 10 days. So whether it be Dinardo or Youkilis, this would be bad for the team.

Option him to AAA. Put him on the 7 day DL. Be done with it.

[Eric Van]

Not a state secret -- J.T. Snow, in the last 6 years, has 57 PA as a pinch hitter and has a .491 OBP (not a typo, "4" as in the number of fingers on one hand that aren't a thumb) and .500 SA. I've got other numbers that help explain why he's become so good at it. As long as Alex Gonzales is the SS, he should be a very useful bench member.

[BosoxBob]

Quote

1. The NL/AL distinction for waivers was abolished a few years ago.

I believe the league distinction is still in place. Check out this article at MLB.com, written around last year's trading deadline. Also, for another (better?) description of transaction rules, check out this page, which states the following about waivers and options:

Quote

Once a player is added to the 40-man roster, the parent club can send him down to the minors on "optional assignment" in 3 separate seasons. You don't need to actually be on the 25-man roster for an option year to be used; being on the 40-man roster in spring training and optioned to the minors before the season is enough to make the season count as an option year. If a player is never sent down, however, he doesn't use an option year.
...
After the three option years are up, a player must pass through waivers to be placed on optional assignment.

Choi played in the Cubs organization from 1999-2001, at which point he was added to their 40-man roster. He then spent parts of 2002 and 2003 in AAA, using up two of his option years. Since he was never in the minors in 2004 or 2005, he still has one option year remaining and does not have to pass through waivers.

[jah317]

Corsi Combover, on Apr 1 2006, 09:35 PM, said:

Source: http://www.gadsdentimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/...mplate=variable

I wonder if he is truly injured or if this reinforces that Choi can't be sent directly to Pawtucket.  If it's just a measure to prevent Choi from being claimed, you have to imagine that there's going to be some roster shuffling when Choi returns from the DL.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That rule that Snow is talking about makes no sense. The Red Sox sent Bob Howery down when he was several weeks away from becoming a veteran (5 years service time) he didn't need to clear any kind of waviers. So unless they changed the rule in the last two years it makes zero sense.

[amfox1]

Choi hits a home run in his first rehab game.

[OCD SS]

I wonder what the longterm plan is with Choi, and how the Sox plan to get him PAs. I don't think Snow has much trade value, but I also think his value to the Sox is declining as Youks has shown himself (granted, in limited playing time) to be a pretty good defensive 1Bman.

Between Youks, Choi, Lowell, and Snow there isn't enough playing time to go around. Even if Snow were traded, I don't see enough ABs for Choi to really get him straightened out...

[Eddie Jurak]

OCD SS, on Apr 15 2006, 08:59 AM, said:

I wonder what the longterm plan is with Choi, and how the Sox plan to get him PAs.  I don't think Snow has much trade value, but I also think his value to the Sox is declining as Youks has shown himself (granted, in limited playing time) to be a pretty good defensive 1Bman. 

Between Youks, Choi, Lowell, and Snow there isn't enough playing time to go around.  Even if Snow were traded, I don't see enough ABs for Choi to really get him straightened out...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would guess the short term plan is to option him and get him ABs with the Paw Sox.

In 2007, he could replace JT Snow. Lowell would still be around, so the three of them (including Youks) would share playing time.

In 2008, Choi and Youks man the corners - if they are both still here which is not a certainty.

For this year, Choi also provides some insurance against the Sox losing Ortiz, Youks, Snow, or Lowell to injury.

[NU five oh]

Eddie Jurak, on Apr 15 2006, 09:08 AM, said:

I would guess the short term plan is to option him and get him ABs with the Paw Sox.

In 2007, he could replace JT Snow.  Lowell would still be around, so the three of them (including Youks) would share playing time.

In 2008, Choi and Youks man the corners - if they are both still here which is not a certainty.

For this year, Choi also provides some insurance against the Sox losing Ortiz, Youks, Snow, or Lowell to injury.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree for the most part, but I don't think Choi can be considered Ortiz insurance in any sense of the phrase. If Ortiz goes down, I imagine they would DH Manny and have an OF of Pena-Crisp-Nixon, with Mohr and Stern filling in as neccessary.

[Bucknahs Bum Ankle]

Hee Seop Choi with Pawtucket - 37 AB, 3HR, 297/435/541 (plus 1/3 with a double and a BB tonight not factored in).
J.T. Snow with Boston - 17 AB 118/318/118

Obviously very small samples, but Snow has shown no signs of life at all at the plate. With Youks impressive defensive, is there really any reason not to dump Snow at this point and bring up Choi? Sure would be nice to have a decent LH pinch hitter on the bench. Not to mention there should be ample opportunity to get him some starts when either Youks or Lowell need a breather.

[yecul]

Snow is good at pinch hitting. Or so I hear. That is worth ten million Choi's didn't you know?

But seriously, this would be a very easy decision if Snow weren't under contract, a veteran, and a had a good glove he would be gone. It's a shame they didn't structure Choi's contract like Harris' so he would have to be promoted.

Retaining control of a player >>>>>>> putting the best available players on the roster. And that's not even considering rookies (say, Hansen).

The exchange seems like a very clear upgrade. However, in no way do I expect it to happen anytime soon.

[xjack]

Quote

Obviously very small samples, but Snow has shown no signs of life at all at the plate.

Well, to be fair, he was a foot away from a pinch-hit double.

I like Choi better too, but I'm not sure he makes enough consistent contact to be a good pinch hitter. But if Lowell, Youks or (god forbid) Papi were going to be out for a month, Choi is the guy I'd want to see in the lineup.

[Lucen]

Bucknahs Bum Ankle, on Apr 25 2006, 11:08 PM, said:

Hee Seop Choi with Pawtucket - 37 AB, 3HR, 297/435/541 (plus 1/3 with a double and a BB tonight not factored in).
J.T. Snow with Boston - 17 AB 118/318/118

Obviously very small samples, but Snow has shown no signs of life at all at the plate.  With Youks impressive defensive, is there really any reason not to dump Snow at this point and bring up Choi?  Sure would be nice to have a decent LH pinch hitter on the bench.  Not to mention there should be ample opportunity to get him some starts when either Youks or Lowell need a breather.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is what I wanted to do when they first picked him up. Snow is pretty with the glove, but Youks has been surprisingly good with the leather as well. There's really no way to make an argument that Snow provides Lowell insurance and can't be moved since Choi does the same thing. I'd much rather have Choi on the roster than Snow. I'd also like to see Willie Harris go too, but in both cases, I think we'll end up seeing more of both of them than we'd like. This team seems very tied to both players, unfortunately.

[Grubbery]

Hee Seop Choi is not Adam Stern, folks. He is not some burgeoning prospect in need ABs for seasoning. He's a young MLB player with everyday experience who amazingly has an option left. Whatever the issues that have sent him through three organizations in as many years, they are not going to be rectified with him in Pawtucket. Meanwhile, the parent club is in need of real bench depth and has absolutely no LH bats of any quality or power to bring off the bench.

If Snow's primary role was as a defensive replacement at 1B, we don't need him at present as Youks seems quite capable. Tonight we saw Snow's only real value left to this team when he pinch hit. If you have better options, which Choi may prove to be, bring him up and we'll find him PAs in platoon or as a pinch hitter. If he has to be the LH Wily Mo, so be it. If the lineup cannot be broad, let it be deep.

[67WasBest]

There has been a bit of talk on XM Radio, much of it coming from Chicago writers about the Cubs making a pitch for Snow with D Lee down. They are talking up the long term relationship with Baker and how it is a perfect fit.

I can see this happening and with Choi hitting so well in Pawtucket it could be sooner than later if Snow were to agree to accept the move before the 6/15 date.

[HighHeat]

67WasBest, on Apr 26 2006, 12:12 AM, said:

There has been a bit of talk on XM Radio, much of it coming from Chicago writers about the Cubs making a pitch for Snow with D Lee down.  They are talking up the long term relationship with Baker and how it is a perfect fit.

I can see this happening and with Choi hitting so well in Pawtucket it could be sooner than later if Snow were to agree to accept the move before the 6/15 date.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Let's hope something happens here. Choi would be a much more useful piece for this team right now and going forward. If they can get anything of value in return for Snow, all the better.

I'm still pissed that Stern was sent down in favor of Willie Harris. I understand why they did it, but it doesn't make it any more palatable. Willie Harris is the suck and has no business occupying a roster spot on a club with championship aspirations. Get well soon, Coco. /hijack

[Lucen]

In 19 games at Pawtucket, Choi has hit .313 with a .466 OBP, walking 20 times and striking out 16 times. It's getting more and more difficult to justify carrying J.T. Snow on the major league roster and I really hope something is in the works that will bring Hee Sop up to Boston soon. Having him come in to pinch hit would actually be exciting, instead of the groan inducing pit of dispair that Snow has been at the plate. With the defensive capabilities of Youks at first, and Choi's rep with the glove, the loss of Snow will be minimal defensively, and completely out weighed by the offensive gain. This team needs a bit more pop off the bench, and that pop is sitting in Pawtucket right now...

[amfox1]

Choi's 20 day rehab ended last night (5/3). He will either need to be placed on the active roster or sent through waivers to remain in AAA (even though he is on the 40 man roster).

One would think there is a chance that he might not make it through waivers.

[SoxScout]

Quote

Hee Seop Choi's rehab stint reached the maximum 20 days yesterday. The Sox must either recall him today or formally option him to Pawtucket. Choi has a minor league option remaining, but because he debuted more than three years ago, he must clear major league (revocable) waivers to be sent to Pawtucket. Provided the Sox go that route, the waivers process should be no more than a formality.

Found my own answer

So you try to pass him through, if he doesn't make it, Snow has to be gone.

Edited by SoxScout, 04 May 2006 - 11:41 AM.

[Skiponzo]

amfox1, on May 4 2006, 09:34 AM, said:

Choi's 20 day rehab ended last night (5/3).  He will either need to be placed on the active roster or sent through waivers to remain in AAA (even though he is on the 40 man roster). 

One would think there is a chance that he might not make it through waivers.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I thought it was reported that he still had an option left?

Edited by Skiponzo, 04 May 2006 - 11:38 AM.

[normstalls]

Come on Theo, work the phones...Snow + One Million Dollars should be able to return a little value. Also, I thought Choi had an option left? Was this deemed untrue?

edit - thanks for info

Edited by normstalls, 04 May 2006 - 11:42 AM.

[Hendu Candu]

If he's placed on waivers it's the revocable kind, right? The kind where we can pull him back and say "JT, sorry you have to go"?

[Bowlerman9]

I still have no idea where snow is getting his information from. How come Jeff Weaver and BH Kim didnt have to go through waivers to be sent to AAA?

[Crazy Puppy]

Bowlerman9, on May 4 2006, 12:43 PM, said:

I still have no idea where snow is getting his information from. How come Jeff Weaver and BH Kim didnt have to go through waivers to be sent to AAA?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It doesn't make any sense. Everyone agrees that Choi has an option remaining, and I thought the essence of having an option is that you can be sent down without being exposed to waivers. I also don't understand why it would be "just a formality" -- I'd think the Yankees would have some interest in claiming him to either block the Red Sox or because Carlos Pena has been pretty bad at Columbus.

And I was always under the impression that the only period of "revocable waivers" was between Aug. 1 and 31. Any other time you expose someone to waivers, you risk losing him.

However, Snow is not the only one who's been reporting this regarding Choi. McAdam at the ProJo and Borges at the Pawtucket Times have said the same thing, so they've apparently been told this by someone in the Sox FO.

[SoxScout]

He has made four errors.

[jkempa]

Quote

Willie Harris is the suck and has no business occupying a roster spot on a club with championship aspirations.

I'm sure that the 2005 Astros would be happy to agree with you!

[OCD SS]

If Choi comes up and Snow is somehow disposed of, the Sox will find themselves with a minor roster crunch. They will essentially have 3 starters (Lowell, Youks, and Choi) for 2 positions (3B & 1B). Right now both Youks and Lowell are playing well enought that I can't see them needing less playing time. Choi has more offensive upside, but it's going to take him a decent amount of time to realize said potential, he's not going to step into it.

Lowell at 3B and Youks at 1B is the best defensive alignment as well. Choi is probably a decent everyday 1B starter, but you wouldn't put him in as a late innings replacement (for that matter, I don't think his hitting style would be all that suitable for PH'ing).

The Sox are probably best served with him in Pawtucket untill either Youks or Lowell goes down with an injury or is traded (and I think the FO would have to be blown away to move Youks). Choi is probably better off getting regular playing time than playing once a week and otherwise burnishing pine.

[SoxScout]

That's not the point, the point is do you want him in Boston or do you want to lose him to another team?