[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Consider this a challenge to the good folks here at RMPS.

It goes without saying that the Red Wings are the most successful team in the NHL over the last 15 years or so. They have won 8 straight Central division titles, 9 out of the last 10 and 13 out of the last 17. They have notched more than 100 points in 9 out of the last ten years. They've won 4 Cups since the 96-97 season and have reached the Conference finals 2 more times (one of them being this year).

Many of their stars are lower round draft picks: Datsyuk 6th round (171st overall), Zetterberg 7th round (210 overall), Franzen 3rd round (97 overall), Lindstrom 3rd round (53 overall), Holmstrom 10th round (257 overall). I suppose a team can get luck once or twice, but it seems to me Detroit consistently gets great players in the late rounds. That can't be dumb luck.

Additionally, they don't even seem to sport the elite goaltending that most teams seem to need to win the Cup. Osgood has a billion career wins but rightly or wrongly no one seems to consider him a star. They did have Hasek for the end of his career and won the Cup with him in net against Carolina in '02, but he wasn't in net when they won their most recent Cup (they lost the conf. semis to the Ducks with him in there the previous year). They had Joseph for a while, but he was considered a disappointment, and they benched Osgood in favor of Legace one year.

So tell me: how the holy hell does this team do it year in and year out? THIS is the team I want the Bruins to become: a smart, extremely competitive hockey team that can have a shot at the Cup every year, and a team that is clearly superior to the rest of the league in terms of front office work and scouting. What do the Wings do so well, and how can the Bruins get there?

Educate me.

[FelixMantilla]

Let's start here:

Red Wings salaries

This post has been edited by FelixMantilla: 20 May 2009 - 05:29 PM

[JulE6]

Before the extensions, Zetterberg's hit was 2.65 and Franzen's was 0.942. They pretty much said f-you to the CBA and signed those two to long deals with frontloaded figures, making the cap numbers lower than they actually are. Filpula's hit is only 3.0 and he's signed through 2013. Also, Chris Osgood remembered how to stop pucks, and his cap figure is 1.4. They've been really good drafting and have had very, very friendly cap numbers. It'll be interesting to see in the coming years how they handle key guys like Lidstrom, Hudler, and Samuelsson

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

The salary situation is a good point and might explain how they've managed to keep these talented players now.

How have they managed to keep getting such good players in the late rounds? Why are they so good year after year after year, despite the usual turnover of the roster?

You might argue that the only real failure from the Detroit franchise over the past 10 years or so is Dave Lewis. And naturally that's the one fucking guy from the Wings the Bruins hired.

There is no exaggerating how much this has been weighing on my mind since the loss on Thursday night. I've been thinking about this almost constantly since then. There is no good reason the Bruins can't become this successful, is there?

[JulE6]

It's a fair question SJH, and one I wish I could have asked Claude while I was at Ristuccia but didn't have the time or opportunity, whether they tried to follow Detroit at all as far as a model. Certainly a good organeyezashun to pattern after

[PedroSpecialK]

They're not afraid to fail with their later picks, quite frankly. They take boom or bust picks at almost every juncture of the draft outside the first two rounds (when they rarely have picks to begin with). It's maddening to see the Bruins settle for "sure-things" like Tommy Cross (even surrendering assets for the privilege to do so) who have their own pitfalls when Detroit's spinning a 6th round pick into a star every five seasons or so. The failure rate of prospects in this strategy is more than acceptable when a success yields you a superstar.

[cshea]

Most of the guys they've drafted and developed during their reign are European. I think whomever Holland has in his European scouting staff are the most valuable parts of that franchise. Franzen, Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Holmstrom, Lindstrom...the list goes on and on. They don't have a heck of a lot of North American talent on the roster, but seem to find all these guys late in the draft. Perhaps they see the European style of play as something they could use to be successful in the post-lockout NHL?

They are able to draft and develop these guys, and now their success has allowed them to make these signings where they lock guys up for 10+ years, driving the AAV down and saving cap space year in year out. That allows them to retain their core, and leave them room to maneuver around, like signing Marian Hossa to a 1-year deal.

As for their style of play, they are 100% puck possession. It is freakin incredible how long they can control the puck. I remember this was the hype everyone was saying when they played the Bruins in November, but it was incredible to see live. They can dominate stretches of the game where the other team can't get the puck. The beginning of that game the Bruins hardly touched the puck in the first 10 minutes. I know the Bruins wound up with a fairly easy 4-1 win (largely thanks to Ty Conklin), but I came away from that game stunned at how the Red Wings would just take the puck, hold on to it for stretches, and skate circles around the opponent.

[Sille Skrub]

Great thread idea, Steve.

I'll defer to you puck-heads on this one, but I'll definitely be reading along.

[Dim13]

According to the Chiarelli on EEI thread, he credits Detroit's scouting and mentality and hopes to bring that to Boston.

The secret to Detroit's success is not really a secret, but rather multi-headed and complex. The least of which is not their ability to spend money. Their creative deals require a lot of cake up front (which Ilitch doesn't have to worry about) while appeasing the cap gods and keeping the AAV down.

Personally, for me, SJH, I think the answer lies in your second proper paragraph. Their scouting as a whole, and particularly their European scouting, is unparalleled. But recognizing the talent is only part of the equation. They have been extraordinarily lucky in bringing those picks over and developing them.

Their "luck", for lack of a better word, also permeates other areas. Look at three guys who are making a huge difference in the playoffs this year: Osgood, Samuelsson and Cleary. Three scrap heap guys who have really flourished in Detroit for whatever reason. Is it a scout saw something no one else did? Is it the system? Is it playing for a winner? Who knows? Probably a combination of all three plus other factors.

Detroit really benefitted from the pre-cap days by using their financial clout to fortify their roster for those Cup wins in the 90s. But those Cup wins gave Detroit the reputation of having a winning culture, a winning team. Players knew Ilitch wouldn't settle for a sub-par team, so those who wanted to win, came to play in Detroit. This attitude still holds true now when you look at the below-market signings of Hossa last year and Rafalski two years ago as well as the team-friendly (in terms of overall AAV and easy buy-out numbers later in the contract) extensions of Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and Franzen.

Also, as hokey as it is, and probably insignificant in the grand scheme, though I feel the need to toss it in here, is the team's loyalty to long-time players who produced in the past. They sign guys like Chelios, Draper, and Maltby on the cheap to finish their careers in Detroit. They bring back Darren McCarty and help him get his life back on track. Little stuff that maybe goes unnoticed by other players, but maybe it doesn't. Again, the perception of the organization as a whole from the top down: player-friendly, winning-friendly.

They are going to have some serious decisions to make in the off-season regarding personnel with Hossa, Samuelsson, and Hudler needing contracts. They might sign one or two, or none. But if they can't keep them, they can just feed the cycle of their depth with exciting young players like Darren Helm (usually one of the best players on the ice in the games I have seen this post-season) and Ville Leino without losing too much.

It took years and years for Detroit to get here. Forget the hell of the 80s, there were a shitload of growing pains for the Yzerman-led Wings in the early 90s until that first Cup in 96-97. It takes time, scouting, and having money and creativity certainly doesn't hurt.

[NomarRS05]

Most of the guys they've drafted and developed during their reign are European. I think whomever Holland has in his European scouting staff are the most valuable parts of that franchise. Franzen, Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Holmstrom, Lindstrom...the list goes on and on. They don't have a heck of a lot of North American talent on the roster, but seem to find all these guys late in the draft. Perhaps they see the European style of play as something they could use to be successful in the post-lockout NHL?

They are able to draft and develop these guys, and now their success has allowed them to make these signings where they lock guys up for 10+ years, driving the AAV down and saving cap space year in year out. That allows them to retain their core, and leave them room to maneuver around, like signing Marian Hossa to a 1-year deal.

As for their style of play, they are 100% puck possession. It is freakin incredible how long they can control the puck. I remember this was the hype everyone was saying when they played the Bruins in November, but it was incredible to see live. They can dominate stretches of the game where the other team can't get the puck. The beginning of that game the Bruins hardly touched the puck in the first 10 minutes. I know the Bruins wound up with a fairly easy 4-1 win (largely thanks to Ty Conklin), but I came away from that game stunned at how the Red Wings would just take the puck, hold on to it for stretches, and skate circles around the opponent.

Can anyone elaborate as to why it is, from a technical standpoint, that the Red Wings are able to control the puck for such long stretches? I haven't had enough chances to watch them, but it seems like there are a lot of teams who try to play that same puck-possession style (like the Capitals) but aren't as successful at it. Is it that their forecheck is strong enough that they create turnovers, then use their passing and skating skills to play keepaway? Are their offensive weapons, like Datsyuk and Zetterberg, more complete players than other stars around the league in that respect?

[Dim13]

Can anyone elaborate as to why it is, from a technical standpoint, that the Red Wings are able to control the puck for such long stretches? I haven't had enough chances to watch them, but it seems like there are a lot of teams who try to play that same puck-possession style (like the Capitals) but aren't as successful at it. Is it that their forecheck is strong enough that they create turnovers, then use their passing and skating skills to play keepaway? Are their offensive weapons, like Datsyuk and Zetterberg, more complete players than other stars around the league in that respect?

A lot of it is skill and the fact that their most skillful offensive players, especially Datsyuk and Zetterberg, but even Hossa and Franzen, are very good to excellent defensive players as well. Datsyuk won the Selke Award last year and is a finalist this year.

[JulE6]

Can anyone elaborate as to why it is, from a technical standpoint, that the Red Wings are able to control the puck for such long stretches? I haven't had enough chances to watch them, but it seems like there are a lot of teams who try to play that same puck-possession style (like the Capitals) but aren't as successful at it. Is it that their forecheck is strong enough that they create turnovers, then use their passing and skating skills to play keepaway? Are their offensive weapons, like Datsyuk and Zetterberg, more complete players than other stars around the league in that respect?

It's really a little bit of both. That roster is so perfectly built for the system that Mike Babcock is playing, each player can play their own game and not worry about covering up for someone else's mistakes because of the perfect fit. As Dim said, both Datsyuk and Zetterberg are Selke candidates and they have a plethora of defensive-forwards

[TheRealness]

I think a lot of it has to do with their connections in Russia and Europe. They have the best European scouting team in the entire league. They go out and find these kids, and watch them day in and day out. Think of it like the Red Sox and their recent investments into their scouting department. Detroit has had a strong presence over there for a long time. I think part of the fact they get these guys so late is because they did their homework on them and had the resources to do it.

Plus, when you win continuously, people like Marian Hossa sign $7.5m deals with you just to win. They have an allure to them because free agents know they're going to have the best team in the NHL and the favorites to win the cup. When guys leave money on the table just to play with you, it's usually because you're team is pretty fucking good.

They've also gotten a bit lucky. Niklas Lidstrom has been the best defenseman in the NHL for 10 years. Could you imagine if somebody else nabbed him? Or he left for Europe for good? Would Zetterberg be as good as he is if he doesn't have Stevie Y and Brett Hull to learn from? There are so many variables that come together that it would be insane to think luck didn't play a part in it. However, I'm a firm believer that you make your own luck. An interesting dichotomy, so maybe they just knew they would be good NHL players and instead they became excellent ones.

Osgood is just solid. He's like a wily veteran pitcher. All he has to do is control his rebounds, make about 4-5 big saves, and he's going to win. Even if he gives up 5 goals on 20 shots, they can still win. His warts are covered up, because Detroit clogs the middle so well. They force the shots to the outside, and they are quick to steer any rebounds back up ice for transition. He's a solid goalie, but he can't win you games like Roy, Broduer, et al can. He can, however, force you to make a good play to beat him. Something that is pretty hard to do on Detroit's team defense.

What do the Bruins need to do?

Keep Wheeler, Bergeron, Kessel, Krejci, Lucic, Hunwick, Stuart, Rask, and Wideman (Good luck with that Chia!). They have two more years of Chara, and one more year of Savard. It sure will be a difficult decision on Savard, but the Bruins have a lot of depth in the organization at Center. Hopefully Chara doesn't pull an Ortiz and can justify a 2-3 year deal after this one. Also, if Bergeron plays a full season, you have to wonder if they might cut ties with Savard to stay under the cap. I have a gut feeling that Savvy will be gone. After all that, they can utilize their organizational depth to replenish any veteran departures they have. If Alexandrov and Soderberg do decide they want leave their mother's womb, the Bruins will be in a very good position to succeed for the next decade. They may not contribute right away, but Alexandrov can fucking play and Soderberg has size and speed that teams salivate over. From Chia to Claod there is an organizational direction in targeting these guys. They know what they want, they target players who fit their profile, and get them.

And I like Tommy Cross. Don't jump off the bandwagon just yet PSK.

[erfus]

A couple of other points to ponder:

The Wings have also been extraordinarily patient with their kids. Consider the path that Niklas Kronwall has taken. A 2000 draft pick, which is forever ago, played 2 years in Sweden after his draft year and didn't break into the NHL on a regular basis until 2006. By the time he's playing full NHL seasons, he's experienced and 25 years old. 25. Can you imagine how many threads we would've started about Matt Lashoff if the Bs kept him for SIX seasons without giving him regular NHL minutes? Filppula and Hudler had similar if not quite as extended seasoning in the AHL and overseas. Franzen was a 4th liner for 2 seasons before he broke out.

It's also not just their scouting and development though, it's also that they have been successful at reclaiming some cast offs. It seems as though busts go to Detroit to resurrect their career. Brad Stuart being perhaps the most recent example. Also: Dan Cleary, who spent 7 NHL seasons doing virtually nothing before the lockout, plays a season in SWE during the lockout, and comes to Detroit where he's now a 20 goal plugger. Mikael Samuelsson had a similar path to Detroit.

Sure, success does breed success but it also does help to have a deep pocketed owner and a patient and savvy management staff.

[Monbo Jumbo]

...You might argue that the only real failure from the Detroit franchise over the past 10 years or so is Dave Lewis. ...

Don Waddell says, "Hi!"

[Sea Bass Neely]

They really are the model franchise in professional sports.

A couple of reasons in addition to what has been mentioned here already:
- Top notch ownership and stability- keeping guys around and teaching the same thing at every level of the organization.
- Drafting skill over size- when you are dealing with 18 year old kids they are likely to put on some size and strength, not add skill.
- Commitment to two way hockey- Bowman brought this with him; when they bought in, they started winning cups. Hard not to buy in when you see the production.

There are a variety of factors, but I really would put the commitment Mr and Mrs Illitch have deployed from working with junior hockey on up as the number one reason.

[BucketOBalls]

How much of this replicate able though? People seem to be mostly crediting their scouting/coaching, and well, every team would like to do a better job finding good players and developing the ones they have.
Cap management also seems to be an aspect, and the jury seems to be out on that so far.

This is the only thing that struck me as interesting.

Osgood is just solid. He's like a wily veteran pitcher. All he has to do is control his rebounds, make about 4-5 big saves, and he's going to win. Even if he gives up 5 goals on 20 shots, they can still win. His warts are covered up, because Detroit clogs the middle so well. They force the shots to the outside, and they are quick to steer any rebounds back up ice for transition. He's a solid goalie, but he can't win you games like Roy, Broduer, et al can. He can, however, force you to make a good play to beat him. Something that is pretty hard to do on Detroit's team defense.

Given that TT looks to be around for a while, can the Bruins adapt to his style(more than they already have)?. Of course, the other problem is that might create a problem when transitioning to a different goalie.

[BoSoxFink]

They really are the model franchise in professional sports.

A couple of reasons in addition to what has been mentioned here already:
- Top notch ownership and stability- keeping guys around and teaching the same thing at every level of the organization.
- Drafting skill over size- when you are dealing with 18 year old kids they are likely to put on some size and strength, not add skill.
- Commitment to two way hockey- Bowman brought this with him; when they bought in, they started winning cups. Hard not to buy in when you see the production.

There are a variety of factors, but I really would put the commitment Mr and Mrs Illitch have deployed from working with junior hockey on up as the number one reason.

Some would say the Patriots are the model franchise, but I will agree with you on Detroit since I am a hockey nut.

[Spacemans Bong]

Also, as hokey as it is, and probably insignificant in the grand scheme, though I feel the need to toss it in here, is the team's loyalty to long-time players who produced in the past. They sign guys like Chelios, Draper, and Maltby on the cheap to finish their careers in Detroit.

Do they have any particular advantage with old guys in terms of medical staff? It seems like they have some ancient guys in their team every year. If you can squeeze just a little more out of that lemon because your physios are the best in the league I have to think that helps.

[gltndr29]

Also, because they have been so successful for so long, players are willing to take below market deals (or short term deals when longer term ones were on the table) in order to be part of the organization or, for younger players, to remain part of the organization. That gives them an enormous advantage in a salary cap system which could grow over time.