927 replies to this topic

[mabrowndog]

Plaschke calls Manny a druggie.

I normally hate Plaschke, but he's hitting it out of the park right now on ESPN. Just letting everything fly.

He says Manny was equal to Kobe Bryant in popularity among LA sports fans. He also laughs at the prescription explanantion, and believes that MLB gave Manny every chance to avoid a suspension and put a positive spin on things by admitting to steroid use and serving as an example for others to come clean. His take is that since MLB and the union are limited as to what they can say about the matter, Manny and Boras decided to take the suspension and put their own spin on it in the hope of preserving his long-term legacy.

[brs3]

Tony Mazz on MLBN right now, he believes the Boston fans will react positively to this, because of his ugly exit from Boston.

What shit. I'm not excited. I'm admittedly naive, but jesus. This might be the most disappointing news I've ever heard as a baseball fan. Not because I'm a Manny Fanboy, but because I allow myself to become a 'fanboy' of players, period. 'Manny Is A Prick', IMO, was largely spin made by the media. I'm convinced the majority of players can be made to look like losers by the media, if a team decides to go that route. Sure, some players are bigger dicks than others, but I also think they could crap on Tim Wakefield if they felt like it.

I don't think I have to go through where I stand on things, but I'm on the side where if you're caught, you lose any right to the Hall of Fame. This is a game you connect with children over. If I had a 14, 15 year old boy who played baseball now and was pretty good, I'd be freaking out. Why wouldn't that kid think that steroid use might be a good idea, if it means he gets into a good college? What's preventing a 20 year kid in college ball who's arm isn't strong enough to withstand the repeated abuse of pitching to think this is a good idea? I really do believe that if there is any sport that needs to present itself to giving a shit about the future generations of fans, it's baseball. A bajillion kids play this sport, the few hundred adults that get to play it for a career should be the best of the best. You cheat, you lose, end of story. What a shame.

Bob Nightengale on MLBN now "People are probably dancing in the streets of Boston".. If this is the case, I'm truly out of touch with the fanbase. So be it. There is nothing to dance about here. It probably didn't start in 2009, ya know?

[Jnai]

You know who probably loses the most money from this? Selena Roberts.

[CaptainLaddie]

You should wait until his press conference.

This I don't believe anyone needs any more proof for. But well played.

[keving18]

Ahem, yes, that is exactly what I'm STATING, not suggesting, in this context. Before you try to be clever, why don't you read some of the testimony, or like ONE study.

ell, if you're suggesting there's no direct relationship between muscle mass and strength, then I think you need to brush up on the laws of physics.

[Foulkey Reese]

He really is.

But we're talking about him and will probably read whatever he writes tomorrow. So he wins.

[Dogman2]

Manny Ramirez: Steriod User.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

You know who probably loses the most money from this? Selena Roberts.

Excellent point. The Manny news just cockblocked her.

[D Jack's Dome]

No surprises here. I'm shocked that anyone else is shocked. Baseball has been a steroid circus for 2 decades, if not more.

And yes, feel free to pump me with the "We don't know its steroids" garbage.

It was steroids. Hence his refusal to waive his right to challenge the suspension.

[SoxFanSince57]

If I'm a Dodger fan, I'm furious right now. Just furious. Forget what and why and all that crap, 50 games is a shitload of games.

Oh come on. Don't overreact to this. The Dodgers have Juan Pierre all ready to step in for Manny. Or maybe they will put Blake in LF and let Mark Loretta take over third. They have plenty of really good options.

[BucketOBalls]

Please don't make me list the 58 drugs (which Ritalin is not on the list) that result in a 50 game suspension on the first offense again.

Doh! I was looking at an old version of testing policy.

I'm pretty sure this is the current version. If anyone cares. It rules out Ritalin or any other stimulant(there is no way to get a 50 game suspension for stimulants. )

Non-steroid "performance enhancing substances" look to be:

53. Human Growth Hormone (“HGH”)
54. Insulin-like Growth Factor (IGF-1), including all isomers of IGF-1 sometimes referred to as Mechano Growth Factors

55. Gonadotrophins (including LH and hCG)
56. Aromatase Inhibitors, including Anastrazole, Lestrozole, Aminogluthemide, Exemestane, Formestane, and Testolactone
57. Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators, including Raloxifene, Tamoxifen and Toremifene
58. Other Anti-estrogens, including Clomiphene, Cyclophenil, and Fulvestrant

We know they can't test for HGH; Are there any legit medical reasons a fit 37 year old would take any of these?

[CaptainLaddie]

Manny Ramirez: Steriod User.

Er...

[foulkehampshire]

I'm sure Jose Canseco is doing a victory dance right now...

[rglenmt]

From the reports in various newspapers, including the LA Times and USA Today, Manny has already waived his right to challenge the suspension. Undoubtedly, that waiver was made with the advice of the MLB Player's Association and most likely one or more of his lawyers, including Scott Boras and others. Because Manny has made the waiver, he does not need to disclose publicly what the test discovered substance is, for what condition Manny was taking the substance and the name of the physician who prescribed it. I have not researched the CBA negotiated or MLB procedures prior to Manny's suspension becoming effective, but it would seem all defenses and mitigating, if any, circumstances have been fully explored. Of interest in the USA report is that Manny made the comment that previously over past 5 years, if my memory serves me correctly, Manny said he has passed at least 15 drug tests administered by MLB. At least, if true, those previous tests may protect the Red Sox and the team's 04 and 07 Championships, in the minds of objective people, from the taint which otherwise might be presumed.

Edited by rglenmt, 07 May 2009 - 12:11 PM.

[CzarAlexander]

Good point. This is the agency that wanted to decide the mechanics of Craig Hansen's pitching motion instead of the Red Sox minor league instructors. It does seem a bit incongruous that they would have no idea about what doctors Manny sees and what prescriptions he gets. Of course, one can easily imagine Manny sort of blowing them off as they call to confirm every little thing for their files.

Really, the best explanation for Manny (assuming that there is one) is that when he moved from Boston to LA, he saw a new doctor for his ADD/ADHD/common ailment that hyperactive boys have/whatever and Dr. Doom changed his prescription without consulting the banned substances list. Mere stupidity was the reason.

I mean, Boras is not superman and cannot be everywhere at the same time, but it would be a stunning lack of due diligence to not have him, in what it basically a perpetual contract year, not check up on his biggest client and what he is ingesting when he sees see doctor(s). I wouldn't be surprised if Boras has a list of doctors that each of his clients see in any given city. And if that is the case, then there could be serious reprecussions for any other of his LA clients who might be on the same stuff for their ailments.

But until we know what whatever-rol or something-a-phen it is, everyone is going to (rightly) assume steroids. And given the shitshow over the last 8 years, I don't blame them. No one gets the benefit of the doubt and doesn't deserve it.

[bosockboy]

Griffey is really the last uber-star left standing from the 1990-2010 era that is clean. He really comes out well in all of this.
Big Hurt too I suppose, but Griffey was larger than life, much like Bonds, Clemens, Manny, etc..

[LoweSox]

Bob Nightengale on MLBN now "People are probably dancing in the streets of Boston".. If this is the case, I'm truly out of touch with the fanbase. So be it. There is nothing to dance about here. It probably didn't start in 2009, ya know?

Yeah, and if it was the status quo for what it means to be a Red Sox fan, I'm going to stop calling myself one. This sucks for Boston because this sucks for baseball.

[j44thor]

Bodybuilding is not about strength, it's about muscle size and definition. There is no debate that it is effective for those purposes. But doctors got before congress and testified that there is no credible scientific evidence that HGH substantively increases muscle strength or aerobic exercise capacity. Great for picking up chicks maybe, but not hitting home runs.

Muscle size is directly related to strength though perhaps not in a linear fashion.
The Medical community for years refuted the effects of anabolic steroids as well.

[bosox188]

Wasn't Plaschke pretending Manny was a mature adult and knocking Boston for their "treatment" of him last year?

[stokdok]

A friend of mine in college relayed this story to me from his psychologist many years ago...

Said psychologist told him that a colleague had seen many members of the Cleveland Indians -- one of which had an enormous drug problem. Apparently, one of the Indians he treated was Manny, who he put on Ritalin for attention deficit disorder. Said psychologist went on to say that Manny that year supposedly went on to lead the league in outfield assists.

Obviously hearsay and speculation (to say nothing of the psychologist's ethics in sharing that story), but it does fit the explanation being given. Take it for what it's worth.

Psychologists don't have an MD and aren't allowed to prescribe meds, so there's something wrong with this story.

[ifmanis5]

You know who probably loses the most money from this? Selena Roberts.

And helps Joe Torre's paperback update to his already forgotten book, as long as he drops in some juicy Manny stuff.

[kazuneko]

I'm pretty sure this is the current version. If anyone cares. It rules out Ritalin or any other stimulant(there is no way to get a 50 game suspension for stimulants. )

Actually, you can on a second offense - it's 30 to 90 days, not or. But for this to be a second offense, there would have had to have been a first, which would have required a 15 day suspension, which we would have heard about.

We're really driving the "it's not ritalin" argument into the ground here.

[WayBackVazquez]

ell, if you're suggesting there's no direct relationship between muscle mass and strength, then I think you need to brush up on the laws of physics.

"What’s the difference between steroids and HGH? For starters, we know that a baseball player can beef up on steroids and improve his athletic performance. But most clinical studies suggest that HGH won’t help an athlete at all….So far, no one has been able to connect the increase in lean body tissue caused by HGH with enhancement of athletic performance. Unlike steroids, growth hormone hasn’t been shown to increase weight-lifting ability; in the lab, it has a greater effect on muscle definition than muscle strength. And it doesn’t seem to help much with cardiovascular fitness, either."

http://www.slate.com...62473/nav/tap1/

http://www.sabernomi...gh-in-baseball/

http://jcem.endojour.../full/90/6/3268

http://www3.intersci...l...=1&SRETRY=0

http://www.ncbi.nlm....Pubmed_RVDocSum

Now shhhhh.

[boggartlaura]

Exactly.

I do not want any clouds on 2004 or 2007, but I don't see why there would be. It was last year that he appeared to be hurt, then got traded, then hit as if he was Babe Ruth.

And really, who do you want on your team? Jason Bay or Manny Ramirez?

It's pure odds. Canseco estimates that over 80% of players were using steroids. Even if you play it safe and say it was just 50%, there is a 1 in 10 millionth chance that not one of the core 20 players on either team used steroids. If you estimate that it was 75% of players using steroids, the odds go to 1 in 1 trillion.

[litigator02]

It was steroids. Hence his refusal to waive his right to challenge the suspension.

FFS.

"After consultation with the Players' Association and his personal representatives, Ramirez waived his right to challenge the suspension. He will lose nearly $8 million of his $25 million salary."

http://sports.espn.g...tory?id=4148907

[bosockboy]

Wasn't Plaschke pretending Manny was a mature adult and knocking Boston for their "treatment" of him last year?

Indeed. He was the ringleader for Manny Mania at Chavez Ravine. He's gonna flip on this quicker than a couple of flapjacks.

[keving18]

Yeah, and if it was the status quo for what it means to be a Red Sox fan, I'm going to stop calling myself one. This sucks for Boston because this sucks for baseball.

I think Nightingale is referring to the fact that, if the Sox hung onto Manny, it'd be them who were victimized with the 50-game.

At least that's a reasonable alternative interpretation. And a good one.

[pokey_reese]

From Will Carroll at Baseball Prospectus:

UPDATE 2: Two sources confirm for me that Ramirez did not test positive for an anabolic steroid. What the substance was remains unclear. The press release from MLB indicates that it was not a “drug of abuse” or a “stimulant,” the other two classes of banned substances. Ramirez’s positive test came during Spring Training, which follows his story that he received the substance from a doctor this January.

UPDATE 3: Ramirez’s statement issued through the MLBPA indicates that Ramirez will not appeal his suspension and that he received the banned substance from a doctor. Ramirez was suspended under section 8.G.2 of the Joint Drug Agreement, which is “other.” In his statement, there’s no clear statement that Ramirez ever tested positive. Combined, those two facts point to a non-testable drug, but this is not confirmed. The only other known 8.G.2 suspension was Jordan Schaefer.

[DLew On Roids]

I wonder what Bill Plaschke has to take to get through the day. I bet his lifestyle is a lot less healthy than Manny's.

No way Manny's test is a result of ADHD meds. They would show up on the stimulants list, not the PEDs. If Manny is telling the truth (a big if), this is more likely a medicine for something like bronchitis, where steroids are useful in bringing down inflammation. It's hard to believe Manny didn't have a minder check out the prescription or give the doc a list of banned medications, but there's always the MBM factor.

MBM is also the likely culprit if he screwed up a cycle and got busted. MBM is always lurking.

[Rudy Pemberton]

Yeah, just imagine the shit show if this happened last year at this time.

[Myt1]

Well, if you're suggesting there's no direct relationship between muscle mass and strength, then I think you need to brush up on the laws of physics.

http://www.baltimore...0,4935995.story

There are studies showing that HGH may just increase definition and appearance of muscles by removing body fat, but not stimulating an increase in actual muscle, or that if muscle growth is stimulated, it's merely thicker muscle and does not work as efficiently as normally produced or steroid produced muscle.

Jackass. Could you really not have googled what he was talking about?

Edited by Myt1, 07 May 2009 - 12:10 PM.

[LoweSox]

Psychologists don't have an MD and aren't allowed to prescribe meds, so there's something wrong with this story.

S/he easily could have meant psychiatrist.

[MannysDestination]

Psychologists don't have an MD and aren't allowed to prescribe meds, so there's something wrong with this story.

Yeah, he probably meant psychiatrist, who do have MDs. Don't be a dumbass.

[bosockboy]

I think lost in this is how positive it is that Selig didn't bury this; this should scare off quite a few more users.

[CaptainLaddie]

Just for reference:

http://sports.espn.g...tory?id=2397789

Derek Lowe has been diagnosed with attention deficit order and received permission to treat it with medication currently on baseball's banned substance list, multiple media outlets reported Wednesday.

Details of his diagnosis, which was made while he was pitching for the Boston Red Sox, were revealed in a divorce deposition described by the Los Angeles Times, the Boston Herald and the Web site ronfineman.com.

Lowe declined to talk to the Times about his treatment, which includes the drug Adderall. Adderall is on the list of banned amphetamines but is allowed by Major League Baseball with an approved prescription.

The Dodgers told the paper that team psychiatrist Herndon Harding evaluated Lowe and team physician Michael Mellman prescribed the medication.

In the deposition, Lowe said that Dodgers trainer Stan Johnston gives him 20 milligrams of Adderall a day. According to the deposition, Red Sox team physician Bill Morgan prescribed Ritalin to treat Lowe's ADD three years ago.

Just as a background.

[Tony C]

Yeah, and if it was the status quo for what it means to be a Red Sox fan, I'm going to stop calling myself one. This sucks for Boston because this sucks for baseball.

how does it suck for baseball? i for one am glad that rules are being enforced -- i think that's good for the game. cheaters shouldn't have a free ride.

[Yazdog8]

Oh come on. Don't overreact to this. The Dodgers have Juan Pierre all ready to step in for Manny. Or maybe they will put Blake in LF and let Mark Loretta take over third. They have plenty of really good options.

They can also put DeWitt at 3rd base should they decide to go that route and call him up.

[CrackpotTheory]

Excellent point. The Manny news just cockblocked her.

Maybe not. It could simply add fuel to the fire about what's been going on and some people will be more likely to believe her "sources".

[brs3]

From the reports in various newspapers, including the LA Times and USA Today, Manny has already waived his right to challenge the suspension. Undoubtedly, that waiver was made with the advice of the MLB Player's Association and most likely one or more of his lawyers, including Scott Boras and others. Because Manny has made the waiver, he does need to disclose what publicly what the test discovered substance is, for what condition Manny was taking the substance and the name of the physician who prescribed it. I have not research the CBA negotiated or MLB procedures prior to Manny's suspension becoming effective, but it would seem all defenses and mitigating, if any, circumstances have been fully explored. Of interest in the USA report is that Manny made the comment that previously over past 5 years, if my memory serves me correctly, Manny has passed at least 15 drug test administered by MLB. At least, if true, those previous tests may protect the Red Sox and the team's 04 and 07 Championships from, in the minds of objective people, from the taint which otherwise might be presumed.

I wish I could believe it, but I can't. Not really. Manny's entire resume is tainted. I remember I really wanted to frame a photo of Manny, a photo that connected the player to the fans and the moment.. and now that moment is forever tarnished.

Edited by brs3, 07 May 2009 - 12:11 PM.

[shawnrbu]

Wasn't Plaschke pretending Manny was a mature adult and knocking Boston for their "treatment" of him last year?

T.J. Simers is the LA columnist who adores Manny. I wonder if he'll be willing to come on D&C like he was so eager to defend Manny last October.

[CaptainLaddie]

So what is a 8.G.2 drug?

[Drocca]

Just as a background.

A background for what?

[Foulkey Reese]

I wish I could believe it, but I can't. Not really. Manny's entire resume is tainted. I remember I really wanted to frame a photo of Manny, a photo that connected the player to the fans and the moment.. and now that moment is forever tarnished.

Half of the players in that photo have probably taken something illegal.

I really don't get how people can get so emo about this.

[keving18]

"What’s the difference between steroids and HGH? For starters, we know that a baseball player can beef up on steroids and improve his athletic performance. But most clinical studies suggest that HGH won’t help an athlete at all….So far, no one has been able to connect the increase in lean body tissue caused by HGH with enhancement of athletic performance. Unlike steroids, growth hormone hasn’t been shown to increase weight-lifting ability; in the lab, it has a greater effect on muscle definition than muscle strength. And it doesn’t seem to help much with cardiovascular fitness, either."

http://www.slate.com...62473/nav/tap1/

http://www.sabernomi...gh-in-baseball/

http://jcem.endojour.../full/90/6/3268

http://www3.intersci...l...=1&SRETRY=0

http://www.ncbi.nlm....Pubmed_RVDocSum

Now shhhhh.

You shssh. Please reread the contention. It wasn't the question of hGH of whether hGH has anabolic activity, it's whether muscle mass leads to increased strength.

Oh, and the first H is lower case, Darwin.

[CaptainLaddie]

A background for what?

For a case of someone in baseball who has used ritalin "legally".

[Mystic Merlin]

The '04 and '07 titles are not "tainted." Those teams, like most, almost certainly harbored PED users.

Rational fans have known this for a few years, probably even before '04.

[jippaman]

Ahem. Aren't you kind of missing the point? Or are you suggesting there's no relationship between strength and muscle mass?

There is some relationship between strength and muscle mass but it is not directly correlated. Just because you have large defined muscles does NOT mean you are necessarily strong and vice versa. If you go to the gym or are familiar with lifting, the easiest way to think about the concept (without going into the physiology) is to think about rep ranges. If you lift a lot of weight with low reps (3-5), you are building primarily strength (albeit some mass along the way), while if you lift lower weight at higher reps (8-12), you are mostly working on hypertrophy of the muscles, i.e. building mass (albeit some strength along the way). There is a lot of bad information on this subject, and I don't want to thread hijack, but the basic idea is that mass does not equal strength.

As for Manny...I am actually very surprised, and part of me believes him when he said: "Recently I saw a physician for a personal health issue. He gave me a medication, not a steroid, which he thought was OK to give me. Unfortunately, the medication was banned under our drug policy." Like all of us, I'll reserve total judgment until we know the drug, but if this story is true, I'm disappointed that a doctor would give a medication to a player whom he/she knows is a high profile athlete playing in a sport where banned substances are Evil No. 1. It's ultimately Manny's fault and only Manny's responsibility, but that physician IMHO should check with the rules to make sure his patient is treated correctly and without consequence for his well-being (however you care to define well-being). The lack of apparent communication between Manny and his doc - again, supposing this medication story is the root problem - is an issue that players and MLB should discuss and improve.

I'm not a Manny apologist, but this is another sad, frustrating day for our favorite game.

[JohntheBaptist]

Plaschke is an awful, awful sports writer and a gigantic prick to boot, but with what went on this offseason with negotiations, what it took to get him there, how hard they fell for him- for this to happen, after their hot start, losing him for 50 freaking games- I think Plaschke stands as a good barometer for the reaction to this on the left coast. They're going to be PISSED. They don't have years of attachment to soften it, or WS or anything like that. They just fell too hard too early for him, and now this?

Unless he has some game changing proof, this one's going to be ugly, especially considering the personality of the player involved.

[Ananti]

There is no way somebody who's innocent doesn't at least try to appeal this suspension. The fact he's not contesting this tells me he and Boras wants this over as quickly as possible. Obviously we should wait for more news. But those of you holding out hope that somehow he's innocent is as naive as the people who hoped before today that the entire 2004 team was clean, both are theoretically possible but highly unlikely.

[DLew On Roids]

8.G.2 just made this a lot more interesting. If he was suspended under 8.G.2, he probably didn't test positive at all:

A Player may be subjected to disciplinary action for just cause by the Commissioner for any Player violation of Section 2 above not referenced in Section 8.A through 8.F above.

Section 2 is the prohibition on "using, possessing, selling, facilitating the sale of, distributing, or facilitating the distribution of any Drug of Abuse, Performance Enhancing Substance and/or Stimulant ." So the suspension was for one of those things.

Sections 8.A through 8.F deal with failure to comply with treatment plans, failed tests, conviction for possession, participation in sale or distribution, and marijuana use. So in other words, none of those things are the cause of the suspension for violation of Section 2. We can rule out selling, facilitating sales, distributing, and facilitating distribution, because that's all covered under 8.A through 8.F. That gets us down to use and possession of a banned substance. We also know he didn't fail a test.

It's got to be that someone saw him use or in possession of the banned substance. This might have been as simple as someone seeing a drug in his locker.

Edited by DLew On Roids, 07 May 2009 - 12:19 PM.