927 replies to this topic

[CaptainLaddie]

maybe he just wanted some time off and had no more sick relatives to use for excuses.. he found a loop hole

What the fuck is the point of posting this? This is fucking useless.

[Rocco Graziosa]

Manny says it's not a steroid. "I've taken 15 tests over the last 5 years and passed all of them."

Well that clears that up. Nothing to see here.

[Fred not Lynn]

Seriously, how stupid do you have to be to get caught? Given the potential reprecussions, if I were a multimillionaire athlete, I'd hire a guy to test every medication and supplement I put into my body, even if it was just a Tylenol.

This certainly puts his LA performance last fall in a different light.

Amateur athletes competing at the international level have had to do this for years, it's not that hard - and you don't need to hire a guy of your own for it, there are tons of resources available to help athletes avoid testing positive for taking the wrong thing.

[JBill]

I also think Manny is full of shit. Do you honestly believe that the Player's Union would not be fighting this suspension to the death if it were an honest mistake due to a prescription??? Horseshit. Manny cheated and got caught, that's why they aren't fighting it.

Yup, nobody's fighting anything, according to Manny's statement. He's already consulted with the union.

[j44thor]

Where did you get the idea that HGH is the most effective PED. There have been clinical studies that conclusively confirm that most anabolic steriods increase strength as well as promote growth. There is great debate as to whether HGH actually increases strength or speed at all.

Well for one the bodybuilding community has found HGH to be extremely powerful (I'll leave the most powerful PED debate alone).
The Bodybuilding community is (and prob always will be) light yrs ahead of doctors and nutritionists when it comes to PED's, diet & excercise etc. so based on their view of it I would say the shit works.

[foulkehampshire]

maybe he just wanted some time off and had no more sick relatives to use for excuses.. he found a loop hole

Even if you are joking, that statement is stupid on about a million different levels.

[Drocca]

maybe he just wanted some time off and had no more sick relatives to use for excuses.. he found a loop hole

You win post of the thread.

[mclusky]

Manny is a moron for not checking this more thoroughly however.

Wow, the "Manny is just a lovable moron" defense still going strong, I see.

[Worst Trade Evah]

The best run of Clemens career was when he was 27-29 (184 ERA+). The worst was when he was 38-40 (114 ERA+). Certainly, the one great year in Houston looks very suspicious; but it's one year. I fully admit I wanted to believe he was clean; but once he went back to MFY I could give a fuck. The back end of his career was far worse than his peak, though.

Bonds four best years were when he was 36-39. His OPS+ in those years was 255, which was 50% higher than the 4 year prior. His SLG went from 625 to 806. It was pretty unprecedented for a player that age to be so much better than he had previously been, which was my argument. Hey, I guess some of us want to believe that guys we looked up to at one point were clean, I think most of that is gone now.

Give it up dude. You were totally wrong then, and you're totally wrong now. You keep pretending that Clemens was completely immune to age regression. He was a very obvious steroid user with a suspicious career profile. The Houston peak was not "one year". And once again, you're talking about Barry Bonds, which is completely pointless, as I already said. You don't have to look like Bonds to be suspected of steroid abuse. Jesus.

I wouldn't have brought it up, but then you had no business getting on BigMike.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Well that clears that up. Nothing to see here.

Certainly the public perception of him will never change from this day forward. No matter how this came about, he's going to be labeled a Cheater, just like Belichick taped the Rams' SB walkthrough.

[The Four Peters]

I don't understand why he would do this if he could put up a prescription and have a doctor's "testimony." Wouldn't all of this be good stuff with a reasonable chance of getting the suspension flipped?

Because "my doctor messed up" isn't a valid reason to get the suspsension overturned. The burden is on the player to pass tests, not the MLB to judge excuse validity.

It could be 100% true that this is what happened (doctor error), and the suspension would still stand. It only matters in the court of public opinion.

[Apisith]

Well that clears that up. Nothing to see here.

If this is true (passed 15 tests in the past couple of seasons) then it certainly makes his story more plausible, no?

[C4CRVT]

Well if that ain't karma I don't know what is.

I'm not saying the Sox are clean here by any means, but I think we all know that guy hitting lasers in LA wasn't the guy that left here. The guy who consistently couldn't deal with plus fastballs and we were cringing at coming up in key situations. His batspeed was down significantly. He could also have just been tanking it, but there's enough smoke to think he left Boston and pulled a "I'll show those fuckers."

ala Clemens. Edit- several pages back- hadn't finished reading yet.

Edited by C4CRVT, 07 May 2009 - 11:40 AM.

[PortageeExpress]

If he was given Ritalin or something by a doc for ADD I think that's a bit different than a pure Roid, no?

Since he was suspended for 50 games, we know that the substance was on the "Performance Enhancing Substance" list. Ritalin (methylphenidate) is on the Stimulant list, which carries lesser penalties for a first time offense.

[CaptainLaddie]

Well that clears that up. Nothing to see here.

Hard to take anything you say or think about Manny seriously since you despise the guy.

[Rocco Graziosa]

If this is true (passed 15 tests in the past couple of seasons) then it certainly makes his story more plausible, no?

Yeah, and ARod has passed every test since 1994. Clemens never tested positive. Ect ect ect ect ect ect ect ect ect

[Steve Dillard]

They are going to have to back it up by showing the prescription.

If they do and Manny is being treated for legitimate medical reasons, and that has caused the drug test then mlb is in a bit of a bad situation.

If they refuse to show the prescription for privacy reasons no one will believe them

If they show the prescription and it was for non medical reason's then clearly Manny looks awful

We all guessed ADD at some point.
This will create an interesting issue for the 104 names list. If he's on it, reporters will try and get info. To this point it seems Selena Roberts was only able to get a source to corroborate her info on a particular name. Does the source now do the same for Manny? Is the source worried about the attention and their possible liability, and refuse to do so?

Also, if Manny truly is not on steroids, it would be in his interest to release the list. Boras as a union guy would resist allowing even just Manny to ask for the release of his name not being on the list.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Yeah, and ARod has passed every test since 1994. Clemens never tested positive. Ect ect ect ect ect ect ect ect ect

Didn't it just come out that ARod didn't pass every test?

[CaptainLaddie]

Wow, the "Manny is just a lovable moron" defense still going strong, I see.

And the "Manny is a lazy asshole" offense still going strong, I see.

[BucketOBalls]

According to ESPN Manny said it was "prescription drug" but not a steroid. He also gave up his right to challenge, so looks like he's not gonna fight it. Manny could be lying, but that seems like a stupid thing to lie about, given that the actual drug probably come out soon.

I'd say Ritalin or the like is the obvious candidate here. If nothing else, that would explain his improved fielding in LA.

The other question is weather this was prescribed by an actual doctor or an internet dentist in Florida.

[Guinevere]

Manny's statement (via ESPN) follows the Boras "Doctor's prescription" mantra.



He's also waived his right to challenge the suspension.

I find the waiver of his rights very interesting. No challenge to the suspension means, if he wants, he could keep a fairly tight lid on the whole deal, maintain control over the information released (more than if there were going to be subsequent proceeedings), and cross his fingers and hope it all blows over as quickly as possible. MLB can't talk, the doc can't talk, the team can't talk. That leaves Manny and Boras as the mouth pieces. Not a bad strategy.

[moondog80]

The MLB banned substabces list includes steroids, drugs of abuse (pot/coke/heroin), and stimulants, listed as:

Amfepramone (Diethylproprion)
Amphetaminil
Chlorphentermine
Clortermine
Ephedrine
Methylphenidate
Phenpentermine
Phentermine

I have no idea what any of those are, but if it turns out one or more of them can be prescribed in a non-PED way, I won't be surprised.

[Soxual Healing]

Add Manny to the list of players I used to like but are now dead to me.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

lol boo hoo

Aaaaaand you're gone.

lol boo hoo.

[mabrowndog]

From yesterday's LA Times, which followed up on Canseco's recent publicity appearance at USC's Bovard Auditorium:

What about Manny Ramirez? someone asks.

Canseco laughs and offers his theory. A-Rod was exposed only when his name was leaked from a list of 104 major leaguers who in a 2003 test showed up positive for steroids. Because the test was anonymous, those names were not supposed to be made public. But in Canseco's mind, baseball's power brokers know who is on it: players he is sure will be seen as toxic if the truth comes out.

He says this, despite the fact that A-Rod isn't being treated as toxic, nor are other players who were caught up in the steroid scandal but publicly apologized, including Miguel Tejada, starting shortstop for the Houston Astros, and Andy Pettitte, a starting pitcher with the New York Yankees.

Why didn't Ramirez get a long-term deal? Canseco asks. Why were owners gun-shy about signing arguably the game's best hitter?

Never mind that Ramirez was asking for a mega-deal at age 36. Or that he was negotiating in a sickly economy, while weighed down by the heavy baggage of a surly reputation. Canseco will have none of it. To Canseco, the drawn-out negotiation, the lack of a long-term deal, the lack of interest all raise red flags, and so he tells the Bovard crowd that Ramirez's "name is most likely, 90%," on the list.

Canseco admits later that he has no way of knowing. But it makes sense to him, so he threw it out there -- kaboom! -- swinging for the fences, still.

Late Saturday, I tracked down Ramirez to tell him what Canseco had said. The immediate response is pure Ramirez: He laughs. Sitting at his locker, he says, "I got no comment, nothing to say about that. What can I say? I don't even know the guy."

[loshjott]

Really?

The guy tried to torpedo our season, several times and put on an act last year that was intolerable enough to force management's hand, then went to LA and played lights out for the rest of the season.

He is now unmasked (unless you feel obligated to accept the "it was a mistake" defense they all like to use.)

His sudden superhuman abilities after the trade last year are at least curious, with some reason to believe, particularly given his age, the product of "enhancement."

He bleeped us, and he has now been exposed. To the life long Red Sox fan, this is as great as hearing about that pitcher who made a previous GM look foolish for letting him go, just as Manny* made Theo look a bit dopey.

With all due respect, this is insane.

Can anyone rationally say Manny did not use PEDs in 2004 and 2007? He didn't all of a sudden get the jones in LA.

[HomeBrew1901]

Aaaaaand you're gone.

lol boo hoo.

LOL boo hoo.

[Tony C]

Didn't it just come out that ARod didn't pass every test?

and the rumor is that Manny has failed tests before, too. amazing the pretzels people twist themselves into to defend rule-breakers.

[keving18]

Well, I was never a big Manny fan anyway so I can't say I'm either surprised or disappointed.

Really, the ship has to be righted and if it takes zeroing out somebody like manny, I'm all for it.

Since he isn't challenging the ban, I'd say they have him dead to f=right. If manny is right and it wasn't steroids, I'd say the next best candidate is hGH.

[CrackpotTheory]

I don't understand why he would do this if he could put up a prescription and have a doctor's "testimony." Wouldn't all of this be good stuff with a reasonable chance of getting the suspension flipped?

No. Because then every single positive test will result in a doctor "testifying" that it was their fault. There's a list of banned substances, and it's the player's responsibilty to be 100% sure about what he takes or is injected with.

[ctsoxfan5]

The best run of Clemens career was when he was 27-29 (184 ERA+). The worst was when he was 38-40 (114 ERA+). Certainly, the one great year in Houston looks very suspicious; but it's one year. I fully admit I wanted to believe he was clean; but once he went back to MFY I could give a fuck. The back end of his career was far worse than his peak, though.

This is off-topic, but this is a bizarre argument. What about his ages 41-43, when his ERA+ was 180? If you put his best ERA+ seasons in order from best to worst, they go like this:

Age: 42, 34, 27, 43, 31, 29, 35.

So, 2 of his 4 "best" seasons were at age 42+. 4 of his best 7 seasons were at age 34+.

[DieHardSoxFan1]

Hard to take anything you say or think about Manny seriously since you despise the guy.

Laddie, to be fair, it's hard to take anything you say or think about Manny seriously since you're veritably infatuated with the guy.

The fact is this case could mirror J.C. Romero's suspension. When both Gammons AND Verducci are reporting it's not a steroid, then I think Manny's answer garners a bit more credibility.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

and the rumor is that Manny has failed tests before, too. amazing the pretzels people twist themselves into to defend rule-breakers.

I'm not defending him. I wanna hear if they say exactly what he got busted for before fetching the pitchfork and gasoline.

[LoweTek]

I've taken and passed about 15 drug tests over the past five seasons.

2009 - 5 = 2004. Canseco's allegation is still in play. Canseco due on XM MLB Home Plate at 1:10... [edit for time correction]

Edited by LoweTek, 07 May 2009 - 11:53 AM.

[foulkehampshire]

and the rumor is that Manny has failed tests before, too. amazing the pretzels people twist themselves into to defend rule-breakers.

I'm somewhat intrigued for that failed drug test list to come out.

[CR67dream]

Aaaaaand you're gone.

lol boo hoo

Kapow!

Beautifully done.

[keving18]

Oh, and the passed tests don't mean anything. Apparently, the Union was tipping players when they were coming down.

If you really want to find a villain here, it's the Union, as they were active and participatory enablers of all the cheaters.

[Talon]

He was rumored to get injections of another kind.

Dude...what the shit does this have to do with anything?

[ToxicSmed]

We all guessed ADD at some point.

I'd say Ritalin or the like is the obvious candidate here. If nothing else, that would explain his improved fielding in LA.

It isn't ADD meds and it isn't Ritalin. If that were the case, even if he hadn't asked for permission from MLB, he wouldn't be getting 50 games. Can we please stop saying this crap?

[RingoOSU]

I'd say Ritalin or the like is the obvious candidate here. If nothing else, that would explain his improved fielding in LA.

Please don't make me list the 58 drugs (which Ritalin is not on the list) that result in a 50 game suspension on the first offense again.

[Apisith]

Yeah, and ARod has passed every test since 1994. Clemens never tested positive. Ect ect ect ect ect ect ect ect ect

ARod tested positive for two anabolic steroids so no, he didn't pass every test since 1994. I'm going to wait until I find out what Manny's tested for before dumping him into the hole that ARod, Clemens and Bonds are in. If it's a performance-enhancing drug, then he'll be lumped in, but there's no harm to waiting for more information before judging Manny.

[mclusky]

And the "Manny is a lazy asshole" offense still going strong, I see.

No, not lazy, just asshole.

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

Manny's "defense," such as it is, actually rings a bit true to me. He didn't know what he was taking and obtained assurance from a doctor that it was ok. It's not a defense in the eyes of the MLB, but it certainly would make a difference to me and how I view the situation, depending on what it was prescribed for. If it was prescribed for some actual condition and not to get huge or strong or recover from injury, and it really was a mistake, that would matter to me.

The reason I say it rings true is that who would be stupid enough these days with mandatory testing to knowingly take a banned substance? I guess if there were someone that dumb, it might be he, though.

[CaptainLaddie]

Laddie, to be fair, it's hard to take anything you say or think about Manny seriously since you're veritably infatuated with the guy.

The fact is this case could mirror J.C. Romero's suspension. When both Gammons AND Verducci are reporting it's not a steroid, then I think Manny's answer garners a bit more credibility.

Are you kidding? I like Manny but I'm certainly not infatuated with him. That's just stupid; don't put words into my mouth, just shut up. Rocco hates Manny; he will fully admit to this.

Edited by CaptainLaddie, 07 May 2009 - 11:47 AM.

[Greg29fan]

The MLB banned substabces list includes steroids, drugs of abuse (pot/coke/heroin), and stimulants, listed as:

Amfepramone (Diethylproprion)
Amphetaminil
Chlorphentermine
Clortermine
Ephedrine
Methylphenidate
Phenpentermine
Phentermine

I have no idea what any of those are, but if it turns out one or more of them can be prescribed in a non-PED way, I won't be surprised.

Metyhlphenidate is Ritalin, since that seems to be the working hypothesis at this point.

[esaslaw]

ala Clemens. Edit- several pages back- hadn't finished reading yet.

Guys should not leave here and try to prove anything. Doesn't seem to work out too well.

Curse of the Bostonians?

[Deathofthebambino]

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I'm with Rocco. Fuck him.

[Rough Carrigan]

Didn't it just come out that ARod didn't pass every test?

Is that in the Selena Roberts book, that ARod has failed other tests besides the 2003 one? I'm confused. I remember the stories that Gene Orza told him and other guys when their tests would be so that they could do everything they could to pass them but I hadn't heard that.

[RingoOSU]

The MLB banned substabces list includes steroids, drugs of abuse (pot/coke/heroin), and stimulants, listed as:

Amfepramone (Diethylproprion)
Amphetaminil
Chlorphentermine
Clortermine
Ephedrine
Methylphenidate
Phenpentermine
Phentermine

I have no idea what any of those are, but if it turns out one or more of them can be prescribed in a non-PED way, I won't be surprised.

Stimulants and Drugs of Abuse dont result in 50 game suspensions on the first offense. Please return to the beginning of the thread.

[Drocca]

If I'm a Dodger fan, I'm furious right now. Just furious. Forget what and why and all that crap, 50 games is a shitload of games.