927 replies to this topic

[DieHardSoxFan1]

Not to nitpick (well, maybe I am nitpicking because I'm fairly "involved" in the AAS world so I think I have a bit more knowledge than the average fan, but that isn't the case. Manny was nabbed because his piss test showed an inflated level of synthetic testosterone in his body. After informing Manny and his representatives about the test, MLB got ahold of his personal doctor records and from there they saw the perscription of hGC.

Right. So in other words he didn't test positive for a steroid. Instead his TE ratio was 4:1 and that raised a major red flag. Then MLB further investigated the case and found the prescriptions.

[NDame616]

Right. So in other words he didn't test positive for a steroid. Instead his TE ratio was 4:1 and that raised a major red flag. Then MLB further investigated the case and found the prescriptions.

I don't have the policy infront of me, but I think 4-1 is an acceptable "margin of error" in the test. levels. I think Manny was anywhere from 4-10:1, and that's what caused further investigation.

[Monbo Jumbo]

Right. So in other words he didn't test positive for a steroid. Instead his TE ratio was 4:1 and that raised a major red flag. Then MLB further investigated the case and found the prescriptions.

According to news reports, MLB determined the testosterone in the Manny sample was synthetic.

[Tony C]

One of the sources with knowledge of the test results confirmed that the outfielder's sample was flagged for having an unusually elevated synthetic testosterone level, more than four times that of the average male. Sources also said that MLB's decision to move to suspend Ramirez would have happened only if the report showed a banned substance. Anti-doping experts said the absence of HCG (human chorionic gonadotropin), coupled with the league's action, indicated that the Dodgers' outfielder used steroids.

from:
Manny on Steroids

why don't we keep this on Ortiz? there are threads on Manny and his case in the R Lounge.

[DieHardSoxFan1]

I don't have the policy infront of me, but I think 4-1 is an acceptable "margin of error" in the test. levels. I think Manny was anywhere from 4-10:1, and that's what caused further investigation.

From the LA Times:

One of the sources with knowledge of the test results confirmed that the outfielder's sample was flagged for having an unusually elevated synthetic testosterone level, more than four times that of the average male.

First, scientists have testified in other doping cases that DHEA does not raise an average person's T-E ratio (1:1) to more than 4:1, where Ramirez's was,

Again, Manny's high TE level certainly raised some warning flags, but he did not test positive for a steroid. According to MLB, Manny was suspended for "violating MLB's Joint Drug Prevention and Treatment Program." He had tested positive for Winstrol or Deca, the disclosure would have read "suspended for testing positive for a performance-enhancing substance."

why don't we keep this on Ortiz? there are threads on Manny and his case in the R Lounge.

Because it's relevant to the Ortiz PED discussion.

Edited by DieHardSoxFan1, 15 May 2009 - 01:30 PM.

[Rudy Pemberton]

How is it relevant to the Ortiz discussion, though? There's no evidence he used any performance enhancers, although he certainly may have. No one has accused him of such. That he's seen a decline in performance isn't evidence of anything; sooner or later every player has their career end no matter if they used or didn't. There's talk that guys don't just lose it overnight, and that this doesn't happen and while I'd like to believe that and still think there's a chance that this is largely mental; it does happen.

[MannysDestination]

From the LA Times:

Again, Manny's high TE level certainly raised some warning flags, but he did not test positive for a steroid. According to MLB, Manny was suspended for "violating MLB's Joint Drug Prevention and Treatment Program." He had tested positive for Winstrol or Deca, the disclosure would have read "suspended for testing positive for a performance-enhancing substance."

Because it's relevant to the Ortiz PED discussion.

The synthetic testosterone is a steroid. Stop being a dumbass.

[absintheofmalaise]

The synthetic testosterone is a steroid. Stop being a dumbass.

Again, if you want to talk steroids, take it to Radomski. There is nothing besides speculation that Ortiz has done PEDs.

[DieHardSoxFan1]

The synthetic testosterone is a steroid. Stop being a dumbass.

It is. But they banned him for violating the league's joint drug and treatment program. Again, they suspended him for violating the league's joint drug and treatment program. Had he tested positive for a performance-enhancing substance, the disclosure would have indicated that he was suspended for...using a performance-enhancing substance.

My guess is Manny forgot to take a masking agent, or he probably didn't stick to his prescribed cycle.

Edited by DieHardSoxFan1, 15 May 2009 - 01:55 PM.

[Monbo Jumbo]

It is. But they banned him for violating the league's joint drug and treatment program. Again, they suspended him for violating the league's joint drug and treatment program. Had he tested positive for a performance-enhancing substance, the disclosure would have indicated that he was suspended for...using a performance-enhancing substance.

My guess is Manny forgot to take a masking agent, or he probably didn't stick to his prescribed cycle.

Just because he wasn't banned for a steroid doesn't mean one wasn't found. Again, they found synthetic testosterone. At that time, they requested his medical records which they have a right to under the CBA. They informed Manny they would ban him for the synthetic testosterone, and his camp informed MLB they would appeal and fight the ban. At that point, MLB found the HcG in the medical records and banned him for that instead, as it wasn't going to lead to an appeal by Manny.

[DieHardSoxFan1]

Just because he wasn't banned for a steroid doesn't mean one wasn't found. Again, they found synthetic testosterone. At that time, they requested his medical records which they have a right to under the CBA. They informed Manny they would ban him for the synthetic testosterone, and his camp informed MLB they would appeal and fight the ban. At that point, MLB found the HcG in the medical records and banned him for that instead, as it wasn't going to lead to an appeal by Manny.

It'll be interesting to see if this information is leaked. A prevailing theme in Game of Shadows was that Conte had prescribed to his clients comprehensive cycles and various drugs in order to control their TE ratio's. Even though Bonds was hopped up on every steroid imaginable, specific GNC supplements kept his TE levels at 1:1

[DieHardSoxFan1]

The synthetic testosterone is a steroid. Stop being a dumbass.

From Gammons:

This is not about the designer-drug issues that the Los Angeles Times raised in the Ramirez case; that will unfurl in time, especially if it piques the curiosity of the FBI.

Sounds like MLB isn't sure what Manny was taking.

Link

[Lose Remerswaal]

I love Gammons, but someone please tell me what this paragraph says:

But while Hollywood and the E! Network may revel in Lindsay Lohan and Robert Downey Jr. and Paris Hilton, the Jeters and Wrights, Sizemores and Mauers deserve for their game to be considered one of values, such that if Ackley develops into a young Utley or Erstad, it will allow him to reward the game that the Ackley family clearly reveres

[LoweTek]

I love Gammons, but someone please tell me what this paragraph says:

It says, "Here is an example of a run-on sentence with no discernable meaning."

[joyofsox]

Reads like the work of e.e. gammings.

[Redkluzu]

A very interesting article in the Times today --"Is Manny Ramirez Really All That Bad?"

Here's the gist:

We admire athletes who work hard, even risking injury, to improve their play. It is oddly paradoxical to damn those who do just that — albeit pharmaceutically. Instead, baseball authorities must prohibit actions that are unduly dangerous, whether taking drugs or playing after a concussion, or that mar the beauty of the game (jet-packs worn by outfielders, handguns for pitchers who want to intimidate a batter), not because such things are unethical but because they are unwise.

[Dionysus]

I'm pretty sure that handguns for pitchers would be both unwise AND unethical. Unless you consider pointing a gun at a store clerk to 'get a better deal' on that candybar to be ethical.

Jetpacks for outfielders, though? That'd just be awesome.

[Redkluzu]

I'm pretty sure that handguns for pitchers would be both unwise AND unethical.

Except against the Yankees.

[Redkluzu]

In the make-me-laugh best title of the week award, MLB.com comes up with:


"Torre: Manny shouldn't be '09 All-Star"

"No, I don't, and if you ask Manny, he'd give you the same answer," said Torre.

[bankshot1]

In the absence of MLB issuing a ruling on Manny's ASG eligibility, given the stakes now attached to the ASG, it will be interesting to see what if anything Manuel does.

[Lose Remerswaal]

It appears someone in Scott Boras's office took their eyes off the (sir)prize yesterday, and let Manny speak with reporters.

"I spoke to Frank McCourt, I apologized, I spoke to Joe, my teammates and I'm ready to move on," he said of the club's owner and Manager Joe Torre.


"I didn't kill nobody, I didn't rape nobody, so that's it, I'm just going to come and play the game," Ramirez said.

Asked if he was sorry for his actions, the 37-year-old All-Star outfielder replied, "That's what I said."

[LoweSox]

I'm pretty sure that handguns for pitchers would be both unwise AND unethical. Unless you consider pointing a gun at a store clerk to 'get a better deal' on that candybar to be ethical.

Intimidation isn't a part of an exchange of goods (at that level) as it is a pitcher's repertoire, so your reasoning is obviously absurd.

It appears someone in Scott Boras's office took their eyes off the (sir)prize yesterday, and let Manny speak with reporters.

Yeah, ironic that he's criticized for not showing his face when it's part of the suspension. I suppose he could have ignored the reporters, though, and gotten criticized for that, too.

The cheating coward.

[sachilles]

Sportcenter reported this that he'd start playing in Single A in preparation for his return from suspension.
How does that work? He can play in single A even though he still has a valid suspension? It's not like he's returning from injury. Seems odd to me, any one have a link or explanation of the rules relative to this situation?

[bankshot1]

Sportcenter reported this that he'd start playing in Single A in preparation for his return from suspension.
How does that work? He can play in single A even though he still has a valid suspension? It's not like he's returning from injury. Seems odd to me, any one have a link or explanation of the rules relative to this situation?

I agree, it doesn't seem right for him to play in any league associated with MLB before his MLB suspension is completed.

[sachilles]

Further news reports say that they are eligible for 10 minor league games before returning. They didn't state how many games you must be suspended for you to earn that.

Edited by sachilles, 19 June 2009 - 10:04 AM.

[absintheofmalaise]

The rules for the suspension and the ml assignment, as well as him being eligible to play in the ASG, are outlined on page 20, section H of the MLB Drug Policy. It's a PDF, or I'd quote it here.

[sachilles]

The rules for the suspension and the ml assignment, as well as him being eligible to play in the ASG, are outlined on page 20, section H of the MLB Drug Policy. It's a PDF, or I'd quote it here.

Thanks for the link. I was able to copy it and took the liberty of post the relevant bit below.

2. All suspensions imposed pursuant to this Section 8 shall be without pay. The number of days of pay a Player shall lose while suspended shall equal the number of games (including the All-Star Game but excluding post-season games) for which he is suspended, regardless of the number of days that he is on the Restricted List as a result of the suspension. (In addition, a Player whose suspension includes a majority of his Club’s post-season games and who, by operation of Major League Rule 45(b)(3), would be entitled to a full share of the Players’ Pool created pursuant to Article X, shall have his share reduced by the proportion of his Club’s regular season games he missed due to the suspension.) During the term of his suspension, a Player may consent to an assignment to a Minor League affiliate of his Club under the terms of Article XIX©(1) and (3), except as modified above with respect to salary and except that such assignment shall not exceed five (5) days (eight (8) days for pitchers) for a Player suspended for a period of 25 games or less, and shall not exceed ten (10) days (16 days for pitchers) for a Player suspended for a period of between 26 and 50 games.

[Adirondack jack]

As Los Angeles Dodgers outfielder Manny Ramirez nears the end of his 50-game suspension, Drug Enforcement Administration investigators are looking at a Miami doctor and his son as the source of his banned performance-enhancing drug, sources familiar with the investigation told ESPN.

Major League Baseball officials, when contacted, confirmed the existence of the federal investigation.

"We're aware of the investigation and our department of investigations is cooperating with the DEA," MLB president Bob DuPuy said Thursday afternoon. He declined to answer any other questions.

Investigators believe the prescription for human chorionic gonadotropin, known as hCG, was written by Pedro Publio Bosch, 71, a physician who has practiced family medicine in Florida since 1976. His son, Anthony Bosch, 45, is believed to have worked as a contact between his father and Ramirez. It's unclear how far along the DEA is in its inquiry but sources indicated that investigators want to know whether either man ever procured improper or illegal prescriptions for other people. DEA officials could not immediately be reached for comment.

espn

Edited by Adirondack jack, 25 June 2009 - 09:35 PM.