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The Great AL Rotation Depth Disparity Chart


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#1 Eric Van


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Posted 01 March 2009 - 12:29 PM

After being such an ass in the Lugo / Lowrie thread, I thought I'd share this (I hope) very informative table listing every starting pitching candidate in the AL.

The pitchers have been classified and grouped according to their PECOTA weighted mean projected EqERAs (not necessarily because PECOTA is the end and be-all of projections systems, but because they come in a spreadsheet and include a park-neutral version). I worked up what seems to be a very viable rule of thumb to turn those projections into subjective rotation slots:

#1: < 3.85
#2: 3.85 - 4.25
#3: 4.25 - 4.50
#4: 4.50 - 4.75
#5: 4.75 - 5.00
#6: 5.00 - 5.25
#7: 5.25 - 5.50 (i.e, the first guy you'd call up from AAA)
Sucks: > 5.50

(Note that because the projections are regressed to the mean, this rule of thumb is probably too generous for actual ERAs.)

I included every pitcher who was listed on the team's MLB web site depth chart, or in Baseball Weekly's chart, or who had a PECOTA projection better than 5.50.

The players in red have their rotation slots locked up, according to reports. The guys in green are prospects (as is David Price, the only prospect to be ceded a slot already). Players in brackets are rehabbing from an injury but expected back after the start of the season. Players in italics are NRI. The guys in blue are potential reliever conversions (or re-conversions) that PECOTA doesn't know about and may not project as well if they were projected as starters. I may have missed one or two of those.

(The multiple lines for each slot are just there to accommodate the teams that have 3 or 4 pitchers of that caliber and do not correspond to good / average / borderline for that role.)

AL Starting Pitchers
[td=*]Marquez [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*]Ortega [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*]X [/td][td=*]Patton [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*]X [/td][td=*]Waters [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td]
Slot Bal Bos NYA TB Tor Chi Cle Det KC Min LAA Oak Sea Tex
1 [Smoltz] Chamberlain Halladay Greinke Hernandez
1 Beckett Sabathia
2 Burnett Kazmir Cecil Danks Lee Verlander Meche Slowey Santana Duchscherer Bedard
2 Shields Liriano Lackey Morrow
2 Price Weaver
3 Uehara Masterson Pettitte Garza Janssen Buehrle Huff Bonderman Baker [Escobar] Rowland-Smith
3 Matsuzaka
3 Lester
4 Guthrie Buchholz Wang Sonnanstine Litsch Floyd S. Lewis Miner Tejeda Bonser Saunders Braden Padilla
4 Albers Bowden Kennedy D. Romero Carmona Eveland McCarthy
4 Baez [McGowan]
5 Wakefield Hughes Hammel Richmond Colon Robertson Hochevar E. Gonzalez Washburn Millwood
5 Penny Mitre Niemann Gallagher Nippert
5 Tomko
6 Hendrickson Aceves Talbot Purcey Egbert Sowers Galarraga Davies Cahill Gabbard
6 Parrish Coke Reyes E. Jackson Bannister Feldman
6 Hill Giese Mendoza
6 Gordon
7 Tillman Igawa Laffey Ramirez Blackburn Anderson Jakubauskas Moscoso
7 Cassel Duckworth Perkins Batista Jennings
7 Pavano Rosa Olsen
7 Silva
X Liz Burres Poreda Z. Jackson Willis Swarzak Moseley G. Gonzalez Feierabend Harrison
X Hennessy Maroth Broadway Lambert Duensing Loux Simmons Hunter
X Penn R. Romero Richard Porcello J. Jones Adenhart Outman Diamond
X Pauley Clement


(Note that by using the weighted mean projections rather than the 50% projections, you do get some seemingly strange results. Sergio Mitre and Brett Tomko project to be 5th starters? Actually, no, of course not -- PECOTA thinks they'll be 7th starters, but that they have about a 10% chance of being excellent, which lifts their weighted mean well above their 50%. That's why the Yankees took a shot on them.)


Here's what I find remarkable: most of the clubs do not even have five guys who project as 1 through 5 starters (hereafter "capable starters").

The Orioles don't, all of the teams in the Central don't, the Rangers don't.

The A's only do if NRI Edgar Gonzalez makes the rotation, which seems unlikely.

The Blue Jays only do if PECOTA is right about major longshots Brett Cecil (only 6 starts above AA) and / or Davis Romero (not even an also-ran prospect according to BA, but PECOTA likes him) and they make the rotation.

The Mariners do, sort of, in the sense that if Carlos Silva is as bad as projected, he will eventually lose his job to the loser of the Ryan Rowland-Smith / Jarrod Washburn 5th starter battle, and PECOTA thinks they're both capable.

The Angels do once Escobar gets back, but project to struggle badly in his spot until he does.


Which brings us to the Beats of the East, and the remarkable contrast to the rest of the league.

The Rays have a set rotation of 5 guys who all project to be 4th starters or better and two more capable guys in case of injury.

Assuming Joba Chamberlain is in the rotation, the Yankees are in the exact same position (plus have the aforementioned two NRI guys, and more 6 and 7 starter types than most).

The Red Sox' situation is complicated by numerous factors that we all know about . . . but there you see it neatly, nine capable starters, two more than even the Rays or Yankees (if you go by 50% percentile projections, I think).

(Note that we do have X (projected suckage) starters -- Hansack just missed being a 7, for instance -- it's just that because we have 9 capable ones, no one is listing those guys as being in the mix. Same for the other clubs that have no X's listed.)


So, you've got a league where 11 clubs have, on average 4 capable starters each ... and three clubs in the same division that have 7-9 capable starters each. Just eye-opening.

Edited by Eric Van, 01 March 2009 - 12:33 PM.


#2 paulftodd


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Posted 01 March 2009 - 06:40 PM

Yeah, only 41 pitchers in the AL had an ERA under 5.0 and pitched more than 140 IP, and only 48 threw 140 IP.

Guys like Smoltz, Penny, Bowden and Buchholz are really hard to project, but you would expect at least 2 would pitch decently if called on. As you show, the Red Sox are in pretty good shape, as are the MFY and TBR, at least on paper.

I think the standards for what is or is not a #1-# 5 starter does not match what we actually see today.

AL 2008 Actual (>140 IP)
(1) 1- 12 (2.54-3.47)
(2) 13-24 (3.49-3.99)
(3) 24-36 (4.03-4.60)
(4) 37-48 (4.67-6.46)
(5) Nil

Thats 4 regular SP'ers per AL Team, regardless of rotation spot. The 5th spot performed so poorly for most teams the starters in these spots were never permitted to pitch that much . The 5th spot is actually an assortment of Replacement level, spot starts from RP'ers and minor league call ups for these teams. We saw this in 2006 with the Red Sox due to injuries.

When you think about it, much of MLB's offensive boost in recent years could be because hitters face much crappier pitching today with the 5 man rotation, pitch counts (#1 starters go 6-7 innings), and limitations on your top relievers IP. The best pitchers just do not pitch as much today, freeing up a whole lot of innings for average or replacement level pitchers.

Edited by paulftodd, 01 March 2009 - 06:41 PM.


#3 Eric Van


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Posted 01 March 2009 - 09:54 PM

I think the standards for what is or is not a #1-# 5 starter does not match what we actually see today.

Whenever I've tried to define parameters for the rotation slots, I've started with the notion that there are only half as many actual #1 starters as there are teams, which is to say that (on average) the good teams have an ace and the bad ones don't, and that's one of the reasons we have good and bad teams. So in the AL, the top 7 starters would be #1's, 8-21 would be #2, and so on. That seems to coordinate better with our subjective sense of how good guys are.

And now, because I'm insane, here is a version of the chart with even more information! I've checked the PECOTA 50th and 75th percentile projections for every pitcher and translated those into rotation slots using the same algorithm. This chart gives not only the weighted mean projected slot, but the 50th and 75th percentile slots. So, for instance, Andy Sonnanstine is still listed as a 4th starter, but the "(5/1)" after his name indicates that his 50% (median) projection is 5th starter (very common for guys whose mean projection is 4th starter) but his 75% projection, which you can think of as "readily attainable upside," is a #1 starter (the only true 4th starter with upside that high).

As a general rule of thumb, #2 and #3 starters have readily attainable #1 starter upside. #4 and #5 starters are most commonly #5 starters with #2 upside, and #6 starters with #2 upside respectively. Guys whose mean projections are as #6 starters (long relievers and spot starters) tend to have a median projection as a AAA first call-up (#7 starter) with #3 upside. This tendency -- median projection one slot below, upside three spots above -- holds for the most of the guys classified as #7 and "X" (suckage).

In this chart, when there's no parenthetical (50% / 75%) numbers after a name, it means the guy has the default median / upside of guys in his slot, as given in the first column.

I think there's yet more interesting data here, e.g., not only does the Orioles' expected rotation look bad, the X guys competing for the last spot have unusually dim upsides (or so thinks PECOTA).

AL Starting Pitchers
[td=*]Marquez (X/X) [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*]Ortega (X/X) [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*]X/5 [/td][td=*]Patton (X/7) [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*]X/5 [/td][td=*]Waters (X/X) [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td][td=*] [/td]
Slot Bal Bos NYA TB Tor Chi Cle Det KC Min LAA Oak Sea Tex
1 [Smoltz] Chamberlain Halladay Greinke Hernandez (2/1)
1 Beckett Sabathia
2/1 Burnett Kazmir Cecil Danks (3/1) Lee Verlander Meche Slowey Santana Duchscherer (3/1) Bedard
2/1 Shields Liriano (3/1) Lackey Morrow (3/1)
2/1 Price (3/1) Weaver (3/1)
3/1 Uehara Masterson Pettitte (4/2) Garza (4/1) Janssen (4/1) Buehrle Huff (4/1) Bonderman Baker [Escobar] Rowland-Smith (4/2)
3/1 Matsuzaka
3/1 Lester (3/2)
4 (5/2) Guthrie (4/2) Buchholz (4/2) Wang (4/2) Sonnanstine (5/1) Litsch Floyd (4/2) S. Lewis Miner Tejeda (5/1) Bonser Saunders Braden Padilla (5/3)
4 (5/2) Albers (6/2) Bowden (5/3) Kennedy D. Romero Carmona Eveland McCarthy (6/2)
4 (5/2) Baez (6/2) [McGowan (6/2)]
5 (6/2) Wakefield (5/3) Hughes Hammel (7/2) Richmond (6/3) Colon (7/3) Robertson (5/3) Hochevar E. Gonzalez Washburn (6/3) Millwood (5/2)
5 (6/2) Penny (7/4) Mitre (X/2) Niemann (5/2) Gallagher Nippert (7/3)
5 (6/2) Tomko (7/3)
6 (7/3) Hendrickson (7/4) Aceves (6/3) Talbot Purcey Egbert Sowers Galarraga Davies Cahill (5/3) Gabbard
6 (7/3) Parrish (6/3) Coke (6/3) Reyes E. Jackson Bannister (6/4) Feldman (X/4)
6 (7/3) Hill (7/4) Giese (X/4) Mendoza (X/4)
6 (7/3) Gordon (7/2)
7 (X/4) Tillman Igawa (X/3) Laffey (7/4) Ramirez (X/5) Blackburn (7/4) Anderson (6/4) Jakubauskas Moscoso (6/3)
7 (X/4) Cassel Duckworth (X/5) Perkins Batista (7/3) Jennings (X/3)
7 (X/4) Pavano Rosa (X/5) Olsen (X/4)
7 (X/4) Silva (7/4)
X/5 Liz Burres (X/6) Poreda Z. Jackson Willis Swarzak (X/6) Moseley (X/4) G. Gonzalez (X/4) Feierabend Harrison (X/6)
X/5 Hennessey (X/7) Maroth Broadway Lambert Duensing (X/7) Loux (X/7) Simmons Hunter (X/X)
X/5 Penn (X/7) R. Romero (X/7) Richard Porcello (X/X) J. Jones (X/X) Adenhart (X/X) Outman Diamond (X/X)
X/5 Pauley (X/X) Clement (X/6)


#4 Trautwein's Degree


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Posted 02 March 2009 - 07:25 PM

Brad Penny had a side session cut short on Sunday because "he couldn't get loose." Penny's season was cut short last year due to shoulder stiffness. Link.

#5 JakeRae

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Posted 02 March 2009 - 07:56 PM

I hope this organization sees something in Penny that PECOTA is missing. Penny's 75th percentile projection barely makes him a useful rotation piece for this team. His 50th percentile projection leaves him utterly useless. Generally high risk signings also have high potential payoffs. Penny's projection makes him look more like a high risk, low reward signing.

I guess the good news is that, with the Sox depth, if Penny really is terrible it shouldn't be too hard to push him to the curb.

#6 Eric Van


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Posted 02 March 2009 - 09:53 PM

I hope this organization sees something in Penny that PECOTA is missing. Penny's 75th percentile projection barely makes him a useful rotation piece for this team. His 50th percentile projection leaves him utterly useless. Generally high risk signings also have high potential payoffs. Penny's projection makes him look more like a high risk, low reward signing.

I guess the good news is that, with the Sox depth, if Penny really is terrible it shouldn't be too hard to push him to the curb.

PECOTA is attempting to compare him to similar guys ... but if the comps database isn't big enough, the projection becomes less reliable. This is borne out by his similarity score, which is very low for a guy his age:

Buchholz 66
Matsuzaka 62
Bowden 61
Lester 60
Beckett 54
Penny 47
Masterson 41
Wakefield 18
Smoltz 4

There is also the likelihood that most pitchers who fell off as profoundly as Penny did last year suffered an injury which permanently damaged their effectiveness. IOW, modern medical advances will render PECOTA less reliable for guys coming off injuries.

#7 paulftodd


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Posted 03 March 2009 - 02:09 AM

I hope this organization sees something in Penny that PECOTA is missing. Penny's 75th percentile projection barely makes him a useful rotation piece for this team. His 50th percentile projection leaves him utterly useless. Generally high risk signings also have high potential payoffs. Penny's projection makes him look more like a high risk, low reward signing.

I guess the good news is that, with the Sox depth, if Penny really is terrible it shouldn't be too hard to push him to the curb.


They commit 5 million for 1 year to get a chance that the 2007 Penny returns. That's low risk for a high potential payoff. If they lose the bet, it's 5 million down the drain, which is how much less the Sox are paying Tek this year. No big deal.

High risk is when you offer a 29 yo pitcher a long term contract and big bucks and gamble his arm doesn't give out and that he does not decline. The Mets are sweating when Santana says his elbow has an ouchie, Theo is hardly sweating over Penny.

Risk is not high just because the probability of getting good results is low. It's high when the cost of not getting good results is high.




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