19 replies to this topic

[opes]

http://www.washingto...9020202902.html

http://sports.espn.g...tory?id=3880712

Can you say totally F'ed?

[Hyde Park Factor]

The part I don't get is that both articles say Clemens voluntarily submitted his DNA. Why would he do that? Sure, it's the sort of thing that an innocent man would do, but Clemens doesn't appear to fit into that category <sarcasm>.

From reading the article, it looks like his lawyers want to play the manufactured evidence card - claiming McNamee fabricated the evidence because he has a mystery axe to grind with Roger. Can they really ride this strategy to vindication? It seems like a highly risky move, "Sure, it's Roger's DNA, but McNamee put it there..."

I know, it only takes reasonable doubt to acquit. Is this enough to create that doubt?

[Ed Hillel]

Yeah, but this DNA is only like 99.9999999999% accurate. So, are you gonna believe "statistics" or believe Roger Clemens himself?

Put away the pitchforks, kids.

[Dice K]

Could a lawyer answer whether this DNA evidence will be admissible in court? Does "chain of ownership" or something like that make the syringes worthless in court? The DNA is obviously a slam dunk, but these things have been kept by a felon in a beer can for almost 10 years. Seems like there may be a stumbling block for the McNamee legal team...

[opes]

Well Dice K, We have Ragah's blood. How did it get there? Did Kirk poke him while he was asleep? If not, Clemens voluntarily gave it to him. The question remains, whether they were for Steroid injections, or B-12, etc? If they can prove these syringes have trace amounts of Steroids, game over.

[glennhoffmania]

Since the evidence is only being used to prove perjury, is the chain of custody standard the same? Wouldn't that just go to the weight of the evidence, not to whether it's admissible?

[jacklamabe65]

The Feds will treat him worse than Hitler.

[mt8thsw9th]

Yeah, but this DNA is only like 99.9999999999% accurate. So, are you gonna believe "statistics" or believe Roger Clemens himself?

Put away the pitchforks, kids.

Roger heard the jury is still out on science.

[DannyDarwinism]

Well Dice K, We have Ragah's blood. How did it get there? Did Kirk poke him while he was asleep? If not, Clemens voluntarily gave it to him. The question remains, whether they were for Steroid injections, or B-12, etc? If they can prove these syringes have trace amounts of Steroids, game over.

That wouldn't change Hardin's defense. Even if trace amounts are found they will presumably say that the syringes were initially used for B12, but McNamee later tainted them with steriods. Ya know, as part of his diabolical plan to frame poor Roger...

And to be clear, I just think this is what they will argue. I don't think it will carry water unless the syringes have both steroids and B12 traces, on the same syringes.

Edited by DannyDarwinism, 03 February 2009 - 06:09 PM.

[Hyde Park Factor]

Exactly my point as well. This is the kind of case where the facts do not lead to an incontrovertible truth. Clemens DNA is on the syringes. Perhaps there are trace amounts of steroids on the syringes as well. Either of those points can (or have been) be easily proven as fact.

Hardin can point out that there is no way of telling when either the DNA or the steroids were left on the syringe, or whether they were even left at the same time.

We may all believe that McNamee shot up Clemens, and it may well be true, but there is certainly enough reasonable doubt for him to walk away a free man. Legally free, but really...

[Sprowl]

It strikes me that the DNA evidence may not be conclusive in itself, but in the context of pictorial evidence that Clemens lied about being at Canseco's party, the tainted syringes tend to establish a pattern of facts that confirm McNamee's story and contradict Clemens'. It may not be enough for a unanimous criminal conviction, but it would probably be enough to torpedo Clemens' suit against McNamee and to support a McNamee countersuit against Clemens.

I pity anybody represented by Rusty Hardin: the man is a blowhard clown whose every pronouncement digs his client in deeper.

[NDame616]

At face value, even if they find steroids on the needles, this will NEVER be admitted in court. I could enter the courtroom dressed in a clown suit, act as Clemens lawyer, and I could successfully argue against them admitting 7 year old needles sitting around a closet with DNA evidence on it.

Sure, it looks like the means that he took steroids. But it's not like a world renowned scientist carefully kept the evidence for nearly a decade.

It seems very strange that in 2001, McNamee would randomly decide to keep all of these needles “just in case” and he just HAPPENED to need them years and years later.

Sure, it’s damning evidence in the court of public opinion. Like Sosa forgetting how to understand English and I can't believe I don't know the correct spelling of Mark McGwire's name not realizing Congress wanted to talk about the past. However, getting those needles admitted as evidence in a federal case will be VERY hard.

(oh, and I hate Clemens and I've thought for 10 years he was juicing....fwiw)

[bombdiggz]

All of the concerns mentioned here are valid. There is no way the needles themselves are admissable in court, but, a lot of circumstantial evidence can do you just as good. Roger really screwed himself when he gave that testimony. If they can't make a perjury case, I would be very surprised. I actually hoped he was going to apologize that day...

My relationship with Rogah has changed a great deal over the years.

[Steve Dillard]

At face value, even if they find steroids on the needles, this will NEVER be admitted in court. I could enter the courtroom dressed in a clown suit, act as Clemens lawyer, and I could successfully argue against them admitting 7 year old needles sitting around a closet with DNA evidence on it.

Good luck, Perry. Chain of custody means accounting for evidence from the time it comes into police or investigator's control. It will be admitted, the test results acknowledged, and then Rusty can take his whacks at the piniata of McNamee to try and suggest he tampered with it in the 7 years.

[NDame616]

Yea but it isn't like the police searched McNamee's apartment and that's how they found 7 year old needles laying around. McNamee just came out and said "oh yea, I kept these needles just in case!" and boom, there they were. Sure, it PROBABLY means that he injected him at some point, and it PROBABLY means if they find steroids in it tha he injected him with steroids, but it doesn't prove it. McNamee could've easily doctored the syringes with steroids to make it look like he did it.

[redsox13]

McNamee has nothing to gain but a long stay in a federal penitentiary if he is lying about these things

[Wake's knuckle]

McNamee has nothing to gain but a long stay in a federal penitentiary if he is lying about these things

And besides, you probably don't have to be THAT good a judge of character to figure out the Clemens would throw you under the bus. It's probably pretty obvious after a little while.

Clemens had to submit his DNA for testing, though, and hope that McNamee was bluffing. I mean, how much of a PR hit did Sosa take for not peeing in a cup when a reporter shoved one under his nose?

[Marciano490]

You guys are making way too much about chain of custody here. I'd be more than happy to cite you cases where evidence was admitted under far less reassuring circumstances than are present here. Everything you are mentioning will go to the weight given the syringes by the trier of fact.
In Federal Court, the government will just have to show "evidence sufficient to support a finding that the matter in question is what" they claim it to be. The requirement of showing authenticity falls in the "category of relevancy dependent upon fulfillment of a condition of fact" that is governed by FRE 104(b). 104(b) allows a judge to admit evidence "upon, or subject to, the introduction of evidence sufficient to support a finding of the fulfillment of the condition." This is not a very high standard.

[gwell55]

You guys are making way too much about chain of custody here. I'd be more than happy to cite you cases where evidence was admitted under far less reassuring circumstances than are present here. Everything you are mentioning will go to the weight given the syringes by the trier of fact.
In Federal Court, the government will just have to show "evidence sufficient to support a finding that the matter in question is what" they claim it to be. The requirement of showing authenticity falls in the "category of relevancy dependent upon fulfillment of a condition of fact" that is governed by FRE 104(b). 104(b) allows a judge to admit evidence "upon, or subject to, the introduction of evidence sufficient to support a finding of the fulfillment of the condition." This is not a very high standard.

Isn't the whole discussion way ahead of itself as the government hasn't even found steroids on the evidence yet? Seems odd that it comes out he had DNA on the syringes and they wouldn't know if there was steroid evidence on them. Those tests I would think should have been done at the same time as to not use up to much of the evidence in test results.

[Buck Showalter]

http://longisland.cr...1396160959.html

McNamee's ring.