[ToxicSmed]

I have seen numerous comments about Francona's predilection for playing veterans compulsively (look at the Varitek thread for a number of examples) and I'm not sure where this perception comes from. Francona sends out a lineup featuring mainly veterans most nights, but that is largely a function of the Red Sox roster.

Here's the way I see it: Francona was willing to let Ellsbury slip by Crisp on the depth chart (in the postseason, no less) when it seemed appropriate. Lowrie has snuck past Lugo and Delcarmen and Masterson both became important cogs in his bullpen. When Trot Nixon began to slip, Wily Mo got his shakes in the field and couldn't hack it.

A common complaint dealt with Timlin's leash being too long, but he was actually a decent pitcher in 2007 and pitched in really low-leverage situations (he entered games with an average 0.65 LI.

I just don't see the evidence supporting Francona's overuse of veterans. Please convince me if you think that he does.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I mentioned this in the other thread, but 3 occasions off the top of my head:

1) Timlin last year at times, particularly Game 2 against Tampa.
2) An injured Mark Loretta at 1B down the stretch of a lost season in 2006, with Carlos Pena on the bench.
3) Millar (and then Olerud) at 1B in 2005 with Youkilis in the minors.

He also played Cora over Lowrie a lot more than a lot of us might have like in 2008, especially in Game 7.

Not sure how convincing these examples are, and certainly he's never been given a better catching option than Tek. So certainly the jury is out.

[bankshot1]

Francona stuck with Pedroia in '07 and ignored the calls to bench him, when he got off to a brutal start,

[Razor Shines]

Carrying Sean Casey's bloated corpse on the roster (including the ALCS roster) instead of one two guys in AAA who could very obviously outplay him was a pretty serious and harmful example. The same could be said for Mark Kotsay to a lesser extent, although he at least had some defensive value.

[Joshv02]

Glad was this was broken out.

I think the Pena datapoint is not far off, but certainly not a big deal. Pena was cut by two teams that summer and wasn't considered a long term solution as he wasn't going to displace Youkilis, Lowell or Ortiz in 2007. Pena also started 5 out of his first 6 games up - going 3/18 with four strike outs - so he was given an immediate opportunity to play. But, this wasn't a real tryout for a long term position.

Lowrie was hurt, as we found out. Also, Cora played primarily against RH FB pitchers, which fit Garza.

Youkilis, when he was up, played a fair amount - including the memorable, and scary, game where he was at 2B. But, in '05 the team was trying for the playoffs still and Millar actually hit 1/2 his HRs that year in August. Also, Paps was obviously given the chance in '05, even down the stretch when it was clear he was the best pitcher on the staff - getting into two of the three PS games and pitching multiple innings each time. Game 5 Francona pretty much let Pap run with it even though he had fewer than 40 innings in the majors by then.

The Casey debacle in last year's playoffs, though, is a really good point (and I assume Francona and Theo share blame in post season roster construction).

[FL4WL3SS]

Razor Shines, on Jan 26 2009, 09:58 AM, said:

Carrying Sean Casey's bloated corpse on the roster (including the ALCS roster) instead of one two guys in AAA who could very obviously outplay him was a pretty serious and harmful example. The same could be said for Mark Kotsay to a lesser extent, although he at least had some defensive value.

How much of that is on Francona and how much of that is on the FO? It's hard to tell. I don't think the makeup of the roster is a good way to prove Francona's propensity for playing veteran's over younger players and prospects. Francona's job is to use what he is given and play who he feels comfortable with. I may agree with you to a lesser extent on the makeup of the playoff roster, but even then he only has a certain number of players available at his disposal.

I do find all of the hand wringing over Varitek odd re: having him on the roster and the FO allowing that to impede them from improving the club. I definitely don't buy into the paranoia that having Varitek on the roster is going to stop the club from finding a suitable long term solution. One thing I have learned about this FO is that they are very good at not letting sentimentality make decisions for them. For reasons unknown to myself, they must feel having Varitek on the club is the best solution at this time. It is easy to second guess these sorts of decisions from our perspective and it'll be even easier in hindsight if Varitek falls flat on his face in 09'. I just don't know how anyone at this point could think that the FO would just hand the starting job to Varitek for the next 2 years and just ignore improving the position.

[SaveBooFerriss]

bankshot1, on Jan 26 2009, 02:55 PM, said:

Francona stuck with Pedroia in '07 and ignored the calls to bench him, when he got off to a brutal start,

Pedroia seems to be the exception that proves the rule. It seems pretty obvious that Francona gives a lot of ropes to the vets he trusts, which isn't unusual.

[OttoC]

Razor Shines, on Jan 26 2009, 09:58 AM, said:

Carrying Sean Casey's bloated corpse on the roster (including the ALCS roster) instead of one two guys in AAA who could very obviously outplay him was a pretty serious and harmful example. The same could be said for Mark Kotsay to a lesser extent, although he at least had some defensive value.

Gee, 0 for 2 as a pinch hitter in the post-season makes him a "bloated corpse?" What do you call the regular who went a combined 8 for 43 in the ALDS and ALCS?

[yecul]

I think it depends on the veteran. There is an enormous difference between Crisp and Varitek when it comes to veteran credentials.

Pedroia only had Cora behind him. What if it were Loretta? I think we might have seen a different split - at least early on. Then again, Pedroia was highly regarded by the team and has the personality that managers love. Different case, IMO.

Who is Varitek "holding back"? You tell me. Bard? I need to learn how to spell Kottaras? Brown? Who are they? Nobodies. Who would start them over Tek? Who would make them the primary guy over Tek?

To me, this is very obvious. It's also the problem. We won't have the opportunity to find out who they are. If they trade for Mauer then Tek is on the bench. Heck, if they trade for Salty then Tek is splitting time. But Brown? That is the cost. Those players won't get enough playing time to prove or disprove their abilities.

[Razor Shines]

OttoC, on Jan 26 2009, 11:31 AM, said:

Gee, 0 for 2 as a pinch hitter in the post-season makes him a "bloated corpse?" What do you call the regular who went a combined 8 for 43 in the ALDS and ALCS?

I think I personally would have preferred a having a player who could actually, you know...play. Yes, I think .233/.300/.247 in the 2nd half of 2008 warrants a "bloated corpse" tag on his toe. There's a reason why he only had 2 ABs.

When Mike Lowell went down, adding Jeff Bailey to play first base should have been a no-brainer. Casey shouldn't have been on the plane to Tampa, and Mark Kotsay shouldn't have been anywhere near first base. This was a major swing-and-miss by Francona (and/or Epstein, depending on who you think has the most influence in constructing the playoff rosters. Personally I bet Francona does).

If this move was made, who knows? We might be having the dynasty discussion right now.

[bankshot1]

Skins24, on Jan 26 2009, 11:11 AM, said:

Pedroia seems to be the exception that proves the rule. It seems pretty obvious that Francona gives a lot of ropes to the vets he trusts, which isn't unusual.

Given the examples cited so far: Ellsbury, Lowrie, Pedroia, and the ones not yet cited, such as Tito's use/faith in guys like Lester, MDC, and Masterson, IMO the blanket charge of Tito's Blind Faith (one-album wonders) in vets seems unfounded. But I agree he trusts vets with whom he has a track record, and like it or not he does have faith it Tek, so chances are he may go with Tek a little longer than us of less faith would.

[ToxicSmed]

Oh, I agree that he may have a longer leash with Varitek than some around here might, but I'm not sure that it's fair to attribute that to his preference for veterans. I think that can be attributed to the fact that the other (internal) options at the catcher position are dreck and that many fans tend to take a grass-is-greener approach a lot of the time.

I just don't see how this reputation has been earned by Francona. I could buy that he gives a longer leash to guys who work hard and are dedicated to the game (as much as I hate those terms sometimes) as seen in Casey, Varitek, Pedroia, Lowell, Delcarmen, etc. Sometimes that works out and sometimes it doesn't but it is, in my mind, different (and a lot more motivating to the rest of the team) than a simple desire to play veterans.

[behindthepen]

Skins24, on Jan 26 2009, 11:11 AM, said:

Pedroia seems to be the exception that proves the rule. It seems pretty obvious that Francona gives a lot of ropes to the vets he trusts, which isn't unusual.

Here's another "exception" for you ... in 2006, he makes a pitcher with 34 Major League innings his closer after one game, with a couple of veteran options in front of him.

I remember getting ready to start a thread on this topic last year, and then when I tried to build a case, it actually seemed to be that Francona was pretty accomodative of youngsters, so I never got past the first sentence.

[mclusky]

behindthepen, on Jan 26 2009, 12:17 PM, said:

Here's another "exception" for you ... in 2006, he makes a pitcher with 34 Major League innings his closer after one game, with a couple of veteran options in front of him.

I remember getting ready to start a thread on this topic last year, and then when I tried to build a case, it actually seemed to be that Francona was pretty accomodative of youngsters, so I never got past the first sentence.

Interesting you say that, because I think it would be hard these days to make a case one way or the other for any manager favoring veterans vs. young players.

The game has changed in several ways over the last 20 years so that managers just don't have the flexibility they once did to make those kinds of decisions. For one, the expansion of pitching staffs shrinks the roster, which means you have fewer guys to make decisions about. Second, almost every front office understands (at least in theory) the value of pre-arbitration or pre-free-agency players, which makes it problematic for managers to exert their will over the roster even if they have a preference for older players.

Dusty Baker is probably known for favoring veterans more than any other active manager, and look at his team last year. Joey Votto and Jay Bruce had about 1,000 ABs and Volquez and Cueto threw about 350 innings.

[trekfan55]

People always use Timlin as the tell tale sign that Francona "loves his veterans" but I'm not really sure. Last season Timlin was clearly the last option out of the bullpen (except maybe in Game 2 he should have gone straight to Byrd?). His tendency to stay with starting pitchers too long to try to get them the win is something else entorely though.

Overall, it was either poor roster management or simply injuries that led Tito to have the roster he did in the ALCS, not any preference of veterans.

[SoxFanPJ]

Not that Tito needs much defending, but the usage of relievers like Timlin may be something that Tito has less choice in then we know. There have been reports that pitcher availability is heavily influenced by the training staff's strength tests on pithcers as well as recent usage of relievers. Sure a reliever may not have pitched the game before, but his strength test may show a tired arm or some other minor issue which makes using him that night ill advised. Tito may be more boxed in in his bullpen usage then we know publicly and as a result to onus is on Theo to make sure that pitchers like Timlin are not on the roster, but are replaced with more effective options.

Another note on playing time, I am not sure if veteran vs. rookie is the proper distinction to make, at the same time I wouldn't be surprised if Tito has his kind of player. Practice habits, preparation, punctuality may all have a role on who he gives playing time too, and are things we only get the briefest of glimpses at through media coverage.

[Blacken]

Honestly, I think the "Tito leans on the vets" argument doesn't quite fly. At least, not for all veterans. It's the veterans who he's had on the team for a significant length of time that get his trust and get put into games over the new kids. Look at the names that we're usually swearing at: Timlin, Cora, Varitek. (Loretta in 2006 was a weird one, I've got nothing on that.) It's his guys, not just "veterans," who have the leash. Sometimes to the team's detriment, but eh--the guy's won two rings, I won't criticize too harshly.

[Harry Hooper]

In 2005, Bill Mueller was in a contract year and wanted to play every inning of every game. Tito almost let him do it, and kept Youkilis on the bench or in AAA. Mueller was crispy toast down the stretch, but he got his new contract from L.A. that winter. Hope he sent Tito a nice Chrsitmas gift.

[Super Nomario]

Harry Hooper, on Jan 26 2009, 09:43 PM, said:

In 2005, Bill Mueller was in a contract year and wanted to play every inning of every game. Tito almost let him do it, and kept Youkilis on the bench or in AAA. Mueller was crispy toast down the stretch, but he got his new contract from L.A. that winter. Hope he sent Tito a nice Chrsitmas gift.

Mueller had a mediocre Sept / Oct that year, true (.267/.339/.352), but considering he was coming off a .366/.380/.581 August it doesn't seem ridiculous that Francona gave him a lot of rope. It's also important to remember:
- The Sox only won the Wild Card by 2 games; there is a time to develop guys and a time to try to win, and September of a playoff chase is the latter
- Youkilis hadn't develop the power he showed last year; he was probably a worse hitter than Mueller at that point
- Mueller was a much better defensive 3B than Youkilis

I find Francona almost completely neutral on the rookie vs. vet issue. That's not to say that he doesn't sometimes favor veterans over rookies, but I think it's more that Tito has his guys he likes or thinks can play that maybe don't square with SoSH's general assessment. He esteemed Pedroia highly and stuck with him when he struggled badly. He esteemed Papelbon highly and used him as the closer to begin the 2006 system (despite only 34 career innings and 0 career saves), even though he had an established closer in Foulke. For all that people criticize him for playing Alex Cora (OPS+ 87) over Jed Lowrie (OPS+ 90) last year, Lowrie did get 100+ more PA last year.

I don't mean to suggest that Francona is always right or that he never buries rookies. I don't think there's any evidence that Francona has a wholescale prejudice against young players, and for basically every example (Youkilis, for instance) there's a compelling alternate reason (Tito didn't like his defense at 3B) that makes more sense.

[curly2]

Harry Hooper, on Jan 26 2009, 04:43 PM, said:

In 2005, Bill Mueller was in a contract year and wanted to play every inning of every game. Tito almost let him do it, and kept Youkilis on the bench or in AAA. Mueller was crispy toast down the stretch, but he got his new contract from L.A. that winter. Hope he sent Tito a nice Chrsitmas gift.

Is that really how it played out? I don't remember Mueller saying anything like that (or saying much of anything that wasn't praising God). And the person who should have sat in favor Youkilis was Millar (98 OPS) rather than Mueller (109 OPS).

The underuse of Youkilis in 2005 was bad, but as others have pointed out, for the most part, Tito's done a good job using young players.