436 replies to this topic

[hair and cheese]

This slow brewing drama between Henry and Boras is fascinating. Regardless of the outcome the fact that Henry is going to Atlanta impresses the hell out of me. I suspect Henry wants him back and knows he doesnt have to deal with Boras to get it done. My guess is Tek isnt thrilled that Boras hasnt brokered a deal yet and is willing to represent himself. Id be shocked if a deal good for both sides isnt done soon.

[ichirob4ichiro]

This slow brewing drama between Henry and Boras is fascinating. Regardless of the outcome the fact that Henry is going to Atlanta impresses the hell out of me. I suspect Henry wants him back and knows he doesnt have to deal with Boras to get it done. My guess is Tek isnt thrilled that Boras hasnt brokered a deal yet and is willing to represent himself. Id be shocked if a deal good for both sides isnt done soon.

It obvious in every interview since the Teix shitstorm went down, JWH sports a smirk as he literally bites his lip when hearing Boras' name. He has said a lot without really having to say much-- I just wonder how long and far this can truly go on for. I don't remember JWH ever being THIS visible in the media when it came to past negotiations... maybe the coverage is just better now than in off-seasons' past. IDK.

[mabrowndog]

I don't remember JWH ever being THIS visible in the media when it came to past negotiations... maybe the coverage is just better now than in off-seasons' past. IDK.

Well, he was pretty damned visible when he and his entourage left Boras's offices and headed to the airport after calling the bluff during the Daisuke negotiations two winters ago..

[ichirob4ichiro]

Well, he was pretty damned visible when he and his entourage left Boras's offices and headed to the airport after calling the bluff during the Daisuke negotiations two winters ago..

IIRC, the media centered around the big three (Larry and TomW, as well) during those negotiations. Haven't heard a relative peep from them this winter.

[mabrowndog]

IIRC, the media centered around the big three (Larry and TomW, as well) during those negotiations. Haven't heard a relative peep from them this winter.

You're right about that, and I believe that's a byproduct of Theo gaining autonomy over baseball operations decisions without LL or anyone else but the principal owner looking over his shoulder.

[502 to Right]

The Sox value Varitek's leadership too much to let him walk if he will stay on a one year deal--and he has nowhere else to go.

I think they will resign him for $7 to $10 million for one year. Sure, the Sox could go for the jugular and low ball him but that's not going to happen between the current ownership group and the Captain.

[Bowlerman9]

The Sox value Varitek's leadership too much to let him walk if he will stay on a one year deal--and he has nowhere else to go.

I think they will resign him for $7 to $10 million for one year. Sure, the Sox could go for the jugular and low ball him but that's not going to happen between the current ownership group and the Captain.

Everyone bitches and moans about JD Drew's contract and says "who were we bidding against!!!??" and now we expect the Sox to sign a guy that literally no one else will sign ... for 7-10M? So let me ask, who are we bidding against??

[ichirob4ichiro]

http://www.boston.co...as/extra_bases/

90-min meeting "went ok."

[502 to Right]

Everyone bitches and moans about JD Drew's contract and says "who were we bidding against!!!??" and now we expect the Sox to sign a guy that literally no one else will sign ... for 7-10M? So let me ask, who are we bidding against??

It's not an auction. The Sox are going to overpay for Varitek because they want him around for at least one more year and I think his pride would cause him to retire before he takes what he no doubt would consider insulting money.

[jsinger121]

It's not an auction. The Sox are going to overpay for Varitek because they want him around for at least one more year and I think his pride would cause him to retire before he takes what he no doubt would consider insulting money.

The Sox don't need to overpay for him. And who cares about insulting him. This is a business. Varitek and Boras made a business decision when they walked away from at least 10 million guaranteed. Now the ball is in the Sox corner and there is no reason to get sentimental and overpay for an aging washed up catcher. If they offer anything more than 4-5 million I will be extremely disappointed.

[SoxFanPJ]

I would think the involvement of Mr. Henry makes a return of Varitek likely, the biggest road block imho is how much does it takd financially for Varitek to savw face/pride, and is the team willing to go there. One thing I wonder about is whether the team could use an incentive like staff era or Cera, that Tek affects but isnt technically one of his own performance based stats. I am not sure how the prohibition on stat bases bonuses is worded...

[mabrowndog]

According to FOX 25 News, the meeting lasted for "about 90 minutes." No other details.

[mabrowndog]

Globe

Red Sox catcher Jason Varitek and owner John Henry met for approximately 90 minutes near the player's Atlanta-area home tonight, but it remains unclear as to whether Varitek is any closer to returning to the team.

Communicating via text message after the meeting, Varitek would say only that the meeting
"went OK" and that there was "nothing to report." The Red Sox’ captain and longtime catcher said he met with Henry "to speak [about]how I feel" and answered "yes" when asked if his desire was to return to the team for the 2009 season.

Varitek declined comment when asked if the Red Sox similarly expressed a desire for him to return. He also declined to address any specifics as to why he remains unsigned less than four weeks before pitchers and catchers are due to report to spring training.

Henry could not be reached for comment.

[5belongstoGeorge]

The Sox value Varitek's leadership too much to let him walk if he will stay on a one year deal--and he has nowhere else to go.

I think they will resign him for $7 to $10 million for one year. Sure, the Sox could go for the jugular and low ball him but that's not going to happen between the current ownership group and the Captain.

In a different thread on the Main Board people are talking about how Cinco Ocho may be worth $7M - $10M. I find the thought that 'Tek's "leadership ability" is worth that much laughable.

He can't hit/throw anymore. I don't want him on the field, even if he plays for free. Make him a coach if he is all that, but keep him off the field and no where near the batter's box.

[roundegotrip]

The Sox value Varitek's leadership too much to let him walk if he will stay on a one year deal--and he has nowhere else to go.

I think they will resign him for $7 to $10 million for one year. Sure, the Sox could go for the jugular and low ball him but that's not going to happen between the current ownership group and the Captain.

I think that's easy to say when it's someone else's $7 to $10 million. Can it be considered low balling when the market has determined his value?

Unlike some, I'd be happy to have Varitek back for another season (maybe even two). But only at his market value, or at least reasonably close to it. I don't want my team reducing it's ability to compete just to satisfy someone's ego. I can't imagine Henry would be in a hurry to sign checks just to satisfy someone's ego. Personally, I'd take $2.5 million dollars to play baseball in Fenway, especially if I didn't have any other team offering me a similiar opportunity. If that's not good enough for Jason Varitek, well, he can make his own decisions. I'll be sorry to see him go, but he's had a good career in Boston, and nothing lasts forever.

[86spike]

Jason Varitek is begging the Red Sox to take him back.

He has prostrated himself befor JWH.

Surreal

[Rocco Graziosa]

The Sox don't need to overpay for him. And who cares about insulting him. This is a business. Varitek and Boras made a business decision when they walked away from at least 10 million guaranteed. Now the ball is in the Sox corner and there is no reason to get sentimental and overpay for an aging washed up catcher. If they offer anything more than 4-5 million I will be extremely disappointed.

Count me in this camp. NO ONE wants this guy. The Sox need to act accordingly. If this guy wants to retire with his pride rather than accept a low ball offer thats fine by me, and probably the Sox. This meeting is an act of desperation on the part of the player. If the Sox are as sound businessmen in this game they will see it as such.

[Ananti]

Exactly what I said, JWH isn't going to negotiate a player contract.

People say that the Sox need to pay Varitek a certain amount to help him "save face", but really this meeting was a face saving gesture. If Varitek requested it, then it really should have been him on the plane to see JWH, the fact that JWH went to him is a face saving move for him. I think it would have been too much for Varitek to go to JWH and ask for a job.

[paulftodd]

It's not an auction. The Sox are going to overpay for Varitek because they want him around for at least one more year and I think his pride would cause him to retire before he takes what he no doubt would consider insulting money.

You nailed it. If the Red Sox offer Varitek 7-10 million dollars, it's because thats what he is worth to them. Varitek's retiring is not in our best interests if the team thinks it will be better off if he plays 1 more year. Taking advantage of a guy who meant so much to this team for 12 years and who is likely a victim of "gas not being up" anymore, and who is respected by the players on your current team is hardly a smart move by any business. Many businessmen will tell you they have overpaid for someones services, if by overpaid you mean that person could not make the same money elsewhere, simply because that person was too valuable to your business at that moment in time to risk losing.

[ConigsCorner]

At first, I really didn't want Varitek back, but I've come to view this thinking as myopic. I've always believed in team chemistry more than most and I think it would be foolish for the Sox to try and save a few million bucks by low-balling Tek. He's widely respected in that clubhouse and if he's not signed, in the future the players aren't going to look at this drama as a screw up by Boras. They will view it as the time their captain (only the 3rd in team history), the guy who smashed ARod in the face was disrespected by management. They'll think that "outsiders" like Penny and Smoltz were guaranteed $5 million despite injury concerns. Of course they are professionals and will play hard no matter who the catcher is, but it could leave a pretty bad taste in their mouths.

Since the "catcher of the future" isn't out there currently, maybe it's best for an initial Varitek/Bard Platoon with Tek starting 100 games as opposed to overpaying for Montero, Salty, or Teagarden. Who knows....maybe during the second half of the season or a year from now Kottaras, Brown, or Wagner develops into that guy, or "the one" is identified and acquired without giving up Buchholz, Masterson, or Bowden. Or maybe Theo and the gang determine that trading for him is worth one of those pitchers. I trust their judgement.

Most likely Tek is on the fast track down the wrong slope of the curve, but maybe the divorce did screw him up more than we'll ever know. Given what he means to the players on the team it's probably best to bring him back with the understanding that Bard will catch two out of five games. In the final analysis, if the Sox didn't want him back no matter what, they wouldn't have offered arbitration in the first place. Don't kick the captain when he's down and offer $2 million, sign him for $7 million and get on with it.

[Papelbon's Poutine]

I think that's easy to say when it's someone else's $7 to $10 million. Can it be considered low balling when the market has determined his value?

Unlike some, I'd be happy to have Varitek back for another season (maybe even two). But only at his market value, or at least reasonably close to it. I don't want my team reducing it's ability to compete just to satisfy someone's ego. I can't imagine Henry would be in a hurry to sign checks just to satisfy someone's ego. Personally, I'd take $2.5 million dollars to play baseball in Fenway, especially if I didn't have any other team offering me a similiar opportunity. If that's not good enough for Jason Varitek, well, he can make his own decisions. I'll be sorry to see him go, but he's had a good career in Boston, and nothing lasts forever.

At what point, exactly, do you foresee signing Varitek - or any player, really - for $7M-$10M handicapping this team's ability to compete? Do you honestly think that if they got to the trading deadline and there was a deal on the table, one that they thought put them over the top or filled a significant need, one that required them to take on an extra $5M in salary, they would bang their heads against the desk and damn the day they signed Tek for $7M instead of $2.5M?

Please do not delude yourself by thinking the Sox payroll is maxed out right now. Or that it ever is or has been under the current regime. Or that it ever will be. For the love of God, they paid $7M on Manny just to get him off the team last season. More than that on Renteria before that. This team has shown time and again that money or disapproval of the fan base will not deter them from making moves they deem fit or necessary.

There's plenty of reasons to be against resigning Tek. Hancuffing the team payroll is not one of them.

Edited by Papelbon's Poutine, 17 January 2009 - 06:03 AM.

[DieHard3]

They'll think that "outsiders" like Penny and Smoltz were guaranteed $5 million despite injury concerns. Of course they are professionals and will play hard no matter who the catcher is, but it could leave a pretty bad taste in their mouths.

That's a good point, at least if the Red Sox sign Varitek they know he'll show up ready and able to play, you can't say that about Penny or Smoltz, respectively.

Brad Penny finished last season hurt, with questions about his heart similar to those the Sox had about Manny, and with an ERA over 6.00 and he got $5 million.

[YTF]

The Sox don't need to overpay for him. And who cares about insulting him. This is a business. Varitek and Boras made a business decision when they walked away from at least 10 million guaranteed. Now the ball is in the Sox corner and there is no reason to get sentimental and overpay for an aging washed up catcher. If they offer anything more than 4-5 million I will be extremely disappointed.

This is exactly how you DON'T conduct business. If the guy has done nothing for your organization and has been a complete asshole for the duration of his stay then yeah, who cares. The way you conduct yourself as an organization sends a message not only to the individual that your dealing with, but those that you wish to deal with and those that are currently under contract. Do you think that there are other players that don't take notice of how a long time, productive and valued team member who just happens to be team captain is treated at the end of his career?

This "business" has been pretty well run since the present ownership has been at the helm. If John Henry is taking the time to visit with Tek, I'm guessing that the team will offer him a contract that they feel both sides can be comfortable with.

Edited by YTF, 17 January 2009 - 08:32 AM.

[5belongstoGeorge]

They will view it as the time their captain (only the 3rd in team history), the guy who smashed ARod in the face was disrespected by management... Of course they are professionals and will play hard no matter who the catcher is, but it could leave a pretty bad taste in their mouths.

How many players are left from 2004 on today's roster?

They'll think that "outsiders" like Penny and Smoltz were guaranteed $5 million despite injury concerns.

Comparing 'Tek to starting pitchers with an injury history is like comparing apples and pork rinds. There is no rehab that Jason Varitek can go through that will allow him to hit a high fastball. For the Sox to gamble $5M on a large upside starter is one thing. For the Sox to throw away $7M for a guy that is not a good player over sentimentality would be bad business.

The only reason to sign 'Tek is because there are no better alternatives. He is the final option and not even an attractive final option at catcher, and that is certainly no reason to hand him millions of extra dollars for time served.or for past good faith. He already got his golden parachute on the last contract he signed.

[hair and cheese]

While the Sox generate a ton of money and have a huge fan base the recent "Golden Age of Red Sox baseball" is about winning. Winning championships. Henry, his love for the game and his deep pockets have been a huge part of it. Theo and baseball operations have been a huge part of it. Tek, and a few other key guys, have also been part of it. I really dont think this is about money. The Sox can and would have paid him 10 million earlier.

Baseball operations is full of geniuses that put values on players. They have hit more than missed. They would love to add catching depth to the organization. Sure the Sox appreciate their captain and might even pay him more than they calculate but I think this comes down to getting him to accept that they do not view him as a full time catcher. Boras wanted a Posada contract and I would imagine Tek still thinks he is a full time catcher.

Gammons mentioned the other day that it was probably wise that Boras not call Theo right after the Tex deal. Henry has taken the high road when his name comes up. There no doubt bad blood exists between Boras and the Sox. I wonder if somewhere along the way Theo mentioned to Boras that he wanted Tek back in a somewhat reduced role and Boras didnt listen or failed to communicate that to Tek. Henry is great at choosing his words carefully. He said before he went to visit Tek that he wanted him to know that "we didnt forget about thim."

In the end I think the Sox want to win again and think they can do that with Tek. He is just going to play less if he comes back. I think these negotiations are more about getting him to understand that.

[Rough Carrigan]

Count me in this camp. NO ONE wants this guy. The Sox need to act accordingly. If this guy wants to retire with his pride rather than accept a low ball offer thats fine by me, and probably the Sox. This meeting is an act of desperation on the part of the player. If the Sox are as sound businessmen in this game they will see it as such.

Amen.
Did Tek worry about how he would make the Sox feel when he negotiated last time? No. It was business. So is this. He and his jackass agent overestimated his value and turned down arbitration.

He's a catcher who'll be 37 on April 11th and who's caught 1300 games in his career, not counting playoff games. His throwing is barely adequate and these are his lines the last four half seasons:

.279/.367/.439
.225/.366/.398

.218/.299/.354
.223/.333/.367

His hitting for the last season and a half has not been acceptable. The only bright spot is that he seemed to have more bat speed batting righty and was still able to hit lefties.

Other catchers read scouting reports, too. Other catchers try and mix up pitches. Other catchers work with pitchers.

If his name was Jason Vajayjay, the Sox might consider him as a platoon option to bat 200 times on the season, mostly against lefties, and offer him a contract for 1 year and $2 million. And that's the problem with bringing him back. Because, if you do, how do you keep Tito from giving him 450-500 at bats, mostly against righties?

Edited by Rough Carrigan, 17 January 2009 - 10:11 AM.

[Tru]

"Because, if you do, how do you keep Tito from giving him 450-500 at bats, mostly against righties? "

Francona has a boss, who he appears to have a good working relationship with. Unless there is a deep divide between the two, and they disagree deeply about platooning Varitek (if that came to pass), then I have to wonder why Henry made the trip to Atlanta.

Was it purely for appearances? That is, from the perspective the Sox were the good guys, tried to Varitek back on board, but were unable to?

* Sorry, I'm learning the board controls for quoting, etc...

Edited by Tru, 17 January 2009 - 10:26 AM.

[Savin Hillbilly]

how do you keep Tito from giving him 450-500 at bats, mostly against righties?

By bringing in a good, young lefthanded catcher, and making it clear that the plan is for that catcher to get at least 50-60 starts, primarily vs. righties.

I mean, of course Tito has day-to-day lineup discretion, but aren't the overall roles and workload expectations of players as much in Theo's province as Tito's? How can a GM function if the field manager willfully ignores the thought processes that shaped the roster?

And anyway, "mostly against righties" is not gonna happen even if it's just Tek/Bard. Tek's platoon splits are much more pronounced than Bard's (in fact, for most of his career Bard's wOBA has been virtually identical from either side). If anybody's going to be the "vs. LHP" specialist in that duo, it'll be Tek. I suspect if it's Tek/Bard you'll see it break down like this:

Bard catches Wake (30 starts)
Tek catches vs. all LHP except when Wake is pitching (40 starts)
Tek catches about 2/3 of the non-Wake, vs. RHP games (60 starts)

resulting in about a 100/60 split in Tek's favor.

So, how good do we think Bowden is again?

[bankshot1]

I don't know how this drama plays out, but Tek's actions reminds me Boras/ARod's tactics in '07 after they opted out of the MFY and then found no interest on their terms. ARod then reached out to Hank and sought outside "advice" to help heal the wounds.

It sounds from Tek's "things went OK" that things did not go OK, or at least not as well as he had hoped. ie. there ain't $10M sitting on the table anymore.

IMO he can still catch, has big intangibles (leadership, mentoring, game prearation, PR, the C on his chest) , but he can't hit his weight anymore, and I don't know how that package gets valued.

1 year, $5-6MM with some incentives and a gold watch would be about my limit at this point.

[bd11]

At some point the Sox staff will have to make due without Tek, whether it is this year or next. The FO has done a great job making it seem as though they are willing to make this be the year for that to occur if need be. I think it is very possible that Theo is imploring JWH to stick at a certain number and not overpay as he would rather use those funds for an in season acquisition. Put another way, I think the FO is willing to take Tek back at a discount, but is also prepared to bite the bullet this season and let him go. These guys are businessmen, and I find it hard to believe they are just going to throw him an extra $2-3 million just so his feelings will not be hurt.

[Mugsys Jock]

This is exactly how you DON'T conduct business. If the guy has done nothing for your organization and has been a complete asshole for the duration of his stay then yeah, who cares. The way you conduct yourself as an organization sends a message not only to the individual that your dealing with, but those that you wish to deal with and those that are currently under contract. Do you think that there are other players that don't take notice of how a long time, productive and valued team member who just happens to be team captain is treated at the end of his career?

This "business" has been pretty well run since the present ownership has been at the helm. If John Henry is taking the time to visit with Tek, I'm guessing that the team will offer him a contract that they feel both sides can be comfortable with.

I think YTF raises an excellent point. Overpaying for an asset is not necessarily "bad business".

In 1997, Steve Avery was on the brink of reaching an incentive clause pitching for the Sox based on starts. He was pretty terrible at the time and there was no particular reason to allow him to get the starts to get the contract to vest...but Jimy Williams, the manager at the time, felt it was his best chance to win the game on that particular day. [The Jimy quote was something like "I'm not trying to be right, I'm trying to do right." Or the other way around. Either way, it makes no sense to me.]

Anyway, it wasn't a shrewd "business" move, aside from the fact that it changed the way free agents perceived Boston management, and avoided bad blood. And that's worth something. It's not like it cost the Sox a pennant in '97

The Sox CAN afford to pay Tek $7 million. Given the current alternatives, the team won't be worse for having done so. They can still trade for a catcher that's a more capable RHH than Tek (say Montero or Salty or Mauer or the ghost of Lance Parrish), cut Josh Bard, and be in better shape behind the plate than they were in 2008. So long as it doesn't compromise the team's ability to field the best possible line-up, and at the risk of going all intangibles, signing Tek at a "respectable" one-year deal is the right business decision.

Now if Tek's still looking multi-year, that's another story. Or if he insists on being a full-time player and gets all pissy when he's pinchhit for. And there's no reason to go all the way to 10 million either, as Tek had that chance and demurred. But he shouldn't have his nose rubbed in it either. Offer him $7 million, or don't make an offer to him at all. Being greedy as possible is NOT the same thing as "good business"

Edited by Mugsys Jock, 17 January 2009 - 11:32 AM.

[D Jack's Dome]

"Francona also said that the Red Sox are not necessarily done making roster moves, and he expects to see more new faces by the time spring training begins in Fort Myers, Florida next month.'I understand a fan wants the team put together right now, but sometimes you have to be patient," Francona said. "You have to be realistic. The more good players other teams sign doesn't make you do cartwheels, but there are reasons we do things the way we do.'"--BP

This article was put out a few days ago, but the roster remains the same. Where Perrotto feels Terry is hinting towards "more new faces" couldn't it be just as plausible that this is directed towards Francona's feelings of Tek coming back? He mentions that fans want a team put together right now, but aside from the catcher position, isn't it already put together? I don't see the Sox picking up any FA catchers not named Varitek. I suppose there's always the chance of trading for a Texas or Arizona catcher, but those talks have seemingly been on calm waters as of late.

Edited by D Jack's Dome, 17 January 2009 - 12:22 PM.

[cannonball 1729]

Because, if you do, how do you keep Tito from giving him 450-500 at bats, mostly against righties?

I do not understand and have never understood the idea that Francona is some kind of a pushover who always defers to veterans. We've seen him quickly bench J.T. Snow in favor of Youkilis, substitute Papelbon for Foulke at closer in the second game of the season, stick with the struggling, unproven Pedroia over veteran Alex "The Genius" Cora, and substitute Ellsbury for Crisp in the middle of a postseason. The only veteran I can really think of that he stuck with for too long when there was a reasonable alternative available was Kevin Millar, and that was because Millar had a history of being extremely streaky, so the club just waited him out in hopes that he would go on one of his two-month hot streaks like he had the previous two years. Even Timlin, who frustrated us to no end, actually ended up being effective (ERA better than league average) every year until this past year, when he was used largely as the last man out of the pen.

Certainly, one could argue that Tito's never had to deal with benching a veteran as important or popular as Varitek. My question is, what part of his largely successful track record of handling rookies and veterans indicates that he would handle this poorly? I'm sure Francona is just as aware as the rest of us that 'Tek couldn't have hit the ball off a tee last year.

I know people are sick of hearing Francona and others rave about Varitek's game calling abilities, but when a key player is struggling offensively, do you expect his manager and teammates to hold a press conference to announce that the player sucks? The fans are welcome to say bad things about a player (and we do), but if he's the captain of the team, you'd hope his manager and teammates would stick up for him using whatever justification they can find.

[roundegotrip]

At what point, exactly, do you foresee signing Varitek - or any player, really - for $7M-$10M handicapping this team's ability to compete? Do you honestly think that if they got to the trading deadline and there was a deal on the table, one that they thought put them over the top or filled a significant need, one that required them to take on an extra $5M in salary, they would bang their heads against the desk and damn the day they signed Tek for $7M instead of $2.5M?

Please do not delude yourself by thinking the Sox payroll is maxed out right now. Or that it ever is or has been under the current regime. Or that it ever will be. For the love of God, they paid $7M on Manny just to get him off the team last season. More than that on Renteria before that. This team has shown time and again that money or disapproval of the fan base will not deter them from making moves they deem fit or necessary.

There's plenty of reasons to be against resigning Tek. Hancuffing the team payroll is not one of them.

It's the principle of it; not just this specific signing. If you want to pay Tek for his leadership or intangibles, that's one thing. To pay him 7-10 million dollars when he apparently does not have a single other offer to play baseball is not sound business.

There is an upper limit for payroll. It may be flexible, but it's there, and that is where the tough decisions have to be made, and where something like overpaying a player $5 million to satisfy his ego or placate the fanbase makes no sense. There's almost this attitude of 'just pay him more than he's worth, it's only for one year... it's the captain', that I just don't get, and that's what I'm really responding to. I'm not saying the Sox can't afford to burn $5 million here and there, of course they can, but why do it willingly?

Edited by roundegotrip, 17 January 2009 - 12:29 PM.

[Savin Hillbilly]

There is an upper limit for payroll. It may be flexible, but it's there, and that is where the tough decisions have to be made, and where something like overpaying a player $5 million to satisfy his ego or placate the fanbase makes no sense.

I think this is putting it a little harshly. It's not about placating anybody, it's about showing how seriously you take working relationships of long standing. Overpaying for a free agent who has never spent a day in your clubhouse would indeed make no sense. Overpaying for a guy who has spent his whole career with you--and particularly "overpaying" in the sense of not cutting his salary as drastically as objective analysis might dictate--says "we bend over backwards to show respect for people who have contributed significantly to our organization for a long time." And that's a statement that I think would help the club down the line in its relations with fans, press, players and their agents.

If you want, think of that extra few million as a marketing expense--it's being spent on reinforcing the brand.

[Beomoose]

I think this is putting it a little harshly. It's not about placating anybody, it's about showing how seriously you take working relationships of long standing. Overpaying for a free agent who has never spent a day in your clubhouse would indeed make no sense. Overpaying for a guy who has spent his whole career with you--and particularly "overpaying" in the sense of not cutting his salary as drastically as objective analysis might dictate--says "we bend over backwards to show respect for people who have contributed significantly to our organization for a long time." And that's a statement that I think would help the club down the line in its relations with fans, press, players and their agents.

If you want, think of that extra few million as a marketing expense--it's being spent on reinforcing the brand.

Very well put. And to expand on that thought: We've had more than a couple instances recently of free agents or potential trade acquisitions expressing a desire to avoid Boston. While I wouldn't say overpaying Tek would automatically make those players want to be Red Sox, taking the cutthroat hardline with him won't help that situation going forward. The more the team is seen to treat guys well who treat them well, the more appealing making the move to Beantown will look for the next guy.

[Bowlerman9]

I think this is putting it a little harshly. It's not about placating anybody, it's about showing how seriously you take working relationships of long standing. Overpaying for a free agent who has never spent a day in your clubhouse would indeed make no sense. Overpaying for a guy who has spent his whole career with you--and particularly "overpaying" in the sense of not cutting his salary as drastically as objective analysis might dictate--says "we bend over backwards to show respect for people who have contributed significantly to our organization for a long time." And that's a statement that I think would help the club down the line in its relations with fans, press, players and their agents.

If you want, think of that extra few million as a marketing expense--it's being spent on reinforcing the brand.

Why isnt the opposite true for the exact same reasons? Why can't Varitek say "You guys paid me 10M last year and I didnt produce for shit, but I love this club and would do anything to come back? You can think of it as marketing income for Varitek as well - ends his career in Boston on a (lets say) 1/3 deal, but is able to make 500K a year for the next 25 years as the leader/captain of the 2004 and 2007 teams. If he wants to end his career in Florida, that opportunity might not be there in a year.

You are entirely right, organizations reward employees based on long standing relationships. At the same time, employees are loyal to companies for the same reason. A lot of individuals in any profession can probably go to another company and make more money. Maybe 1K a year, maybe 5K, maybe 10K. But a lot of times, people stay at their current job because the extra money isnt worth breaking the working relationship to start over in a new situation.

Why cant he sign here for 1 year, 3M because he doesnt want to go somewhere else for 4M (if that offer even exists)?

[DavidTai]

Why cant he sign here for 1 year, 3M because he doesnt want to go somewhere else for 4M (if that offer even exists)?

Scott Boras. I just have a hard time picturing that particular agent making it easy.

[Blacken]

Scott Boras. I just have a hard time picturing that particular agent making it easy.

Then Varitek's a pussy, because Boras is paid by Varitek to do what Varitek wants.

More likely, he wants the dinero. At least from where I sit.

[D Jack's Dome]

Then Varitek's a pussy, because Boras is paid by Varitek to do what Varitek wants.

More likely, he wants the dinero. At least from where I sit.

Although he did just have a 1 on 1 with the owner of the Red Sox, so maybe there is a little hope that he "excludes" Boras from the negotiations ala A-Rod.

[Avalokiteshvera]

I think this is putting it a little harshly. It's not about placating anybody, it's about showing how seriously you take working relationships of long standing. Overpaying for a free agent who has never spent a day in your clubhouse would indeed make no sense. Overpaying for a guy who has spent his whole career with you--and particularly "overpaying" in the sense of not cutting his salary as drastically as objective analysis might dictate--says "we bend over backwards to show respect for people who have contributed significantly to our organization for a long time." And that's a statement that I think would help the club down the line in its relations with fans, press, players and their agents.

If you want, think of that extra few million as a marketing expense--it's being spent on reinforcing the brand.

Tek came over from Seattle.
The Red Sox already have a contract in place for the long term player who is valued with Wake. That is at 4 million a year. Would we expect something similar with Tek with money? Maybe a bump up to 5? With Wake, it has been good value for the Sox, if it were Tek, not so good.

[Cuzittt]

I think YTF raises an excellent point. Overpaying for an asset is not necessarily "bad business".

[snip]

And there's no reason to go all the way to 10 million either, as Tek had that chance and demurred. But he shouldn't have his nose rubbed in it either. Offer him $7 million, or don't make an offer to him at all. Being greedy as possible is NOT the same thing as "good business"

I don't actually disagree with the first point. I do agree that there are times where an overpay is "good business" (and there are other times where it is "necessary" business). However... Why $7 million. Why not $6 million? Why not $5 million?

I get that Varitek made $10 million last year. It is irrelevant however... right now he is making 0 for 2009, and has no apparent prospects for anything right now. I realize that there is disagreement on how good Josh Bard is and how likely Jason Varitek is to have some sort of an offensive bounceback. However... I do think looking at what Josh Bard was signed for is instructive. Josh Bard was signed for 2009 for AT MOST $2.5 million. Is Jason Varitek actually worth $4.5 million more than Josh Bard... even considering his "defensive wizardry" and his "icon status?"

Where Perrotto feels Terry is hinting towards "more new faces" couldn't it be just as plausible that this is directed towards Francona's feelings of Tek coming back? He mentions that fans want a team put together right now, but aside from the catcher position, isn't it already put together?

Well, yes... the Sox have every position filled including catcher. However, the Red Sox front office is always looking for ways to improve their team. You can't come up with any potential moves besides catcher? You can't see the Sox trading Lugo and picking up another utility infielder? You can't see the Sox trading Lowell and picking up Dunn?

Now, I am not saying that these moves are on the horizon... in fact, I tend to agree that the only position that is really in any sort of flux is catcher. However... I think Francona was speaking more in generalities than sending any sort of coded message.

And that's a statement that I think would help the club down the line in its relations with fans, press, players and their agents.

Fans don't matter. They simply don't. As long as the team continues to win, the team is going to get the fans to come out to Fenway. There may be teams that need the "team icon" to draw fans... the Red Sox are not that team.

The press want access. That is pretty much all they really want. Having players that like to talk to the press is probably good for them too... but, again, signing a player like Varitek is ultimately irrelevant in keeping on good terms with the press.

Only the last two groups matter in this case... and frankly, I don't think it matters all that much. Because, just like the fans, most (many, a majority) are interested in playing on a winning team. Which doesn't mean you can't pay them the prevailing wage... they aren't generally going to come to Boston simply for the opportunity to win. However... it does not appear (based on the past couple of seasons) that the Sox have been hurt by walking away from some big names (Pedro, Damon come to mind). I don't think the Sox will be hurt if they don't sign Varitek (or if they sign him to an "insulting" contract).

[Wakefield's Heart]

Looking at the Sox for a moment: they've paid Varitek generously for his services during these happy golden days, and they've gotten a lot back in return for the generosity and fairness they've bestowed upon him. They've negotiated respectfully and shrewdly, offering a 32 year-old catcher a $40 million deal and the Captain role that was gladly accepted and cherished. That deal was a win-win for everyone involved. The Sox won another World Series, and perhaps as important from a long-term POV, Tek was meanwhile able to work with and help shape the early careers of the franchise's biggest investments/hopes over these past few years: Beckett, Daisuke, Lester and others. There were ups and downs for sure. It wasn't all perfect all the time on either side of the fence, but all things considered, it was damn near close.

Now we find ourselves at the ultimate crossroads in negotiations, at the end of this 36-almost-37 year-old-team Captain catcher's career. This Captain-catcher could still provide value to this club, which is why the Sox offered the fair, reasonable, conservative-from-a- business-perspective, one-year arb deal for $10 million. To me, this offer is generous and respectful. It is the Sox (1) giving Tek the market rate compensation they thought he deserved for someone at his elite level while still (2) recognizing that any longer term contract than that could compromise the longer term interests of the ballclub they're continually building for the future. Tek obviously doesn't agree with this, or else he would've accepted it. Which begs the question, just what are Tek and Boras thinking?

So Tek had to have been thinking: (1) Despite a terrible offensive year and mediocre defensive year, I still add enough value to my current team (or could add enough value to a different/future team) to justify a multi-year deal. The Sox should've offered me more years--I'm the team Captain, damn it--but they didn't. Staying with the Sox for just one more year and riding off into the sunset as a Red Sox isn't enough for me in and of itself now, here, at the end. What I want/need more than anything (or, is it what my agent wants/needs, that scum-sucker who gets kwan if I sign a new deal with a different club?) is years. This is my last-ever contract. I can still play ball and add enough value to justify a club making a multi-year, multi-million dollar investment in me, even though I'm a catcher in my late thirties (?); (2) Maybe it's time for a fresh start elsewhere with a young team where I could really maximize my value because they'd need my leadership/knowledge more than anything else I can offer offensively or defensively? Hope someone will want me...Scott says they will.

I have to think that #1 and some of #2 is how it shook down. I think Tek thinks he could be a valuable player for more than another year, but our FO has determined that the benefit of signing him that long would be less likely to outweigh the short-term and long-term costs, all things considered. Period. That is how Theo's team makes their decisions, and it is why we are a top club in the toughest division in baseball and have won 2 World Series rings in the last 6 years of this regime whereas the other clubs in our division have not. In negotiations like these, that strategy is probably a really tough pill for guys like Tek to swallow when they're on this side of the negotiations, but I don't see Tek and the other players complaining when the tough FO decisions assemble championship caliber teams that give this entire organization of players the best chance to call themselves Champions more than once every 86 years if they play their hearts out and the pieces fall into place.

This is so simple: Tek gambled in his last FA year and lost. You can't win 'em all. I love Tek and always will, but I don't feel sorry for him at all. If he can't swallow his pride and come back for one year at $10 mill as an old catcher who can't hit the ball anymore, seriously, I don't know what the hell he's thinking or who is advising him. For an intelligent catcher type, I'd expect better judgment about something this important. Whatever Henry decides/says, in this case, is the right move, I think.

Edited by Wakefield's Heart, 17 January 2009 - 02:14 PM.

[E5 Yaz]

However... it does not appear (based on the past couple of seasons) that the Sox have been hurt by walking away from some big names (Pedro, Damon come to mind). I don't think the Sox will be hurt if they don't sign Varitek (or if they sign him to an "insulting" contract).

I tend to agree with everything you said, but I would say that there are situations when the "big name" is so instrumental to the team's success that it would hurt them. Here's Theo talking about Tek from after the 2004 free agency:

When Theo Epstein, the now-legendary 31-year-old GM, is asked about contract negotiations, he often replies, "We're always willing to walk away from one player, because it's a 25-man team." Epstein says this to cover himself in the event that, say, the Mets offer Pedro a fourth year. He says this because it's often true. If you lose a Martinez or a Derek Lowe, or if you trade Nomar Garciaparra, you have no choice but to move on.

But while Epstein is never going to add credence to the early-November rumor that the Yankees were ready to trade Jorge Posada for Randy Johnson and sign Varitek as a free agent, he does say this: "Jason is a player we did not want to lose to anyone. He stands for all the things we want our players to represent. He plays the game hard, respects the game. He is very selfless, a very supportive teammate. He's a great communicator, exceptionally well-prepared. He goes to children's hospitals all the time without telling anyone in the media. When you get a player who does all those things, who sets the right example, if you let him go, you send the wrong message to the rest of your clubhouse about what you're looking for in a player. And you might spend many years looking to fill that void."

http://sports.espn.g...e...&id=3756799

Now, certainly, the situation has changed because Tek is in the final stages of his career. But Theo's comments signal that even within the organization they realize the importance a player can have beyond statistical production. The question, as has been stated before by others in this thread and G38 in his blog, is how much of an impact would losing Tek have in terms of the production of the pitching staff and, therefore, the W/L record. And that's not something that can be determined with any certainty until there's a full season without him.

I think the comparisons here to Wakefield are apt. Not that they should give Tek a perpetual contract; but that the $4M-$5M range is really where this should wind up.

[xjack]

How did it become accepted truth in the media that Varitek would have gotten at least $10 million if he had accepted arbitration? Here's an example of this from today's Herald:

Varitek, who endured his worst season at the plate last year, hitting .220 with 13 homers and 43 RBI, rejected the Red Sox offer of arbitration on Dec. 7. Had Varitek accepted arbitration, he would have guaranteed himself at least $10 million for 2009, the same salary he earned last season.

What guarantee? I thought there was no floor to the number the Red Sox could submit in arbitration. Assuming that's true, it would have been perfectly reasonable for the Sox to point to, say, Benjie Molina's $5.5 million a year contract with the Giants, and argue to the arbitrator that Varitek should be paid no more than Molina.

http://www.bostonher...i...&position=0

[semsox]

How did it become accepted truth in the media that Varitek would have gotten at least $10 million if he had accepted arbitration? Here's an example of this from today's Herald:



What guarantee? I thought there was no floor to the number the Red Sox could submit in arbitration. Assuming that's true, it would have been perfectly reasonable for the Sox to point to, say, Benjie Molina's $5.5 million a year contract with the Giants, and argue to the arbitrator that Varitek should be paid no more than Molina.

http://www.bostonher...i...&position=0

I was always under the impression that the maximum pay-cut a team could offer in arbitration was 20%. So the Sox lowest figure they could have submitted was $8 million.

[Paul M]

Objectively, his value is somewhere in the 4-5.5 million per year range, but let's shave another 10% off because the severe recession and just bad judgement by Boras/Varitek. He's probably still a $5 million player. Maybe give him a base of $4 million and a $1 million incentive if he makes the All-Star team or something.

He's in the 710-725 OPS range as a full-time player and this comes from the 4 projections I've seen for him.

In arbirtration, I think he would have gotten at least $8 million, so Boras between the hold-out and what happened this year cost Varitek a significant amount of money. Reason is that starting your career later hurts and if Varitek were a free-agent last year and after 2003, who knows how much more he makes? Boras generally comes through, but these less obvious costs should be factored in.

[Bowlerman9]

I was always under the impression that the maximum pay-cut a team could offer in arbitration was 20%. So the Sox lowest figure they could have submitted was $8 million.

Doesnt apply to unrestricted FA's who accept arbitration.

[Ananti]

Reason is that starting your career later hurts and if Varitek were a free-agent last year and after 2003, who knows how much more he makes? Boras generally comes through, but these less obvious costs should be factored in.

So did Varitek not signing after the draft hurt him financially in the long run?