Jump to content


Yo! You're not logged in. Why am I seeing this ad?

Photo

Comprehensive New Catcher Thread


This topic has been archived. This means that you cannot reply to this topic.
257 replies to this topic

#1 sleepyjose03

  • 2410 posts

Posted 08 December 2008 - 10:09 PM

Hi guys, as I indicated in the other thread, I'm gonna try and start a new thread in the hopes that we can combine most of the discussion about a new catcher in here, rather than clogging the Box with 10 separate "catcher" threads. I feel like I'm fighting fire with fire, but if this is what works, then so be it.

As always, please try to avoid inane discussion and wild hopes and dreams. This is not the place to propose trading Kevin Cash and Kris Johnson for Joe Mauer. In fact, such a place does not exist. Please try and keep it limited to actual rumors and ideas, and keep the chatter and flaming to a minimum if you find yourself unable to avoid it altogether.

Instead of starting a new thread every time we talk about somebody different at catcher, or hear some different piece of news regarding our search for a new backstop, please put it here. Thanks.

And with that, have at it.

Note: If this doesnt work out, could one of the Dopes or Mods be generous enough to take it out back and put it down. I really hope this doesnt become part of the problem.

#2 Stuart Scott's Lazy Eye


  • Sad Sack


  • 1655 posts

Posted 09 December 2008 - 03:28 PM

I'll support it. I've been avoiding the sandbox like the plague because I know how it gets in the off-season, but I'm glad someone's being pro-active.

On to the topic, let's discuss what's on the table in the various four or five other threads going on right now:

Varitek offered arbitration, and he declines
This means that the Red Sox will get a compensatory draft pick if he is to sign anywhere else. Detroit GM Dombrowski has been reported as saying that this makes signing Varitek a lot less attractive for his team. Varitek is still being shopped around.

Gerald Laird traded to Tigers
And Dombrowski solves the problem by aquiring Gerald Laird in a trade with the Texas Rangers. Laird was reported as being one of the options the Red Sox were looking at via trade to replace Varitek.

Remaining Texas Catchers
Teagarden, Salty, and Ramirez are still available if the FO were to make a deal with the Rangers.

Free Agent Catchers
No great options. If not Varitek, then the new Sox catcher will either be from the farm or via trade. The latter being much more likely in my opinion.

Still pretty quiet on the Catcher front right now. Perhaps the FO still has a deal on the table with Varitek and is waiting to see where he ends up.

#3 mikeford


  • woolwich!


  • 17196 posts

Posted 09 December 2008 - 03:31 PM

Plus the rumored interest in Brian Schneider of the Mets (editor's note: DONT WANT) and I think that is everything.

#4 sleepyjose03

  • 2410 posts

Posted 09 December 2008 - 03:59 PM

Personally, if we cant get one of the Texas catchers for a reasonable price, I am ok looking to the free agent market for a stopgap solution. Josh Bard is a free agent, and there are a handful of others I wouldn't mind see platoon with Varitek (if he comes back) or Kottaras (if Tek leaves). Are any of them ideal? Nope. Are they better than paying an arm (specifically Buchholz' arm) and/or a leg (like Andersons)? I think so. Sign me up for a 2 or 3 year deal for Bard with Georgie and Brown splitting the duties backing him up rather than paying a ridiculous amount. This also gives us a few more years to a) evaluate what we have in our AAA catchers, b) draft or develop catching prospects, c) pick up somebody in a trade and finally d) see what future FAs will be available.

Id much rather see us take a more conservative approach rather than make a mistake while infected with this OMG Its now or never to get a new catcher mentality.

Edit: Before I get mugged by the rest of the 'Box, please note that I would rather attain our catcher of the future this offseason. But I am not about to sell the farm, put Heidi Watney on the street, and sell Theo's kidneys on the black market to do it right now. Most MLB catchers suck. We can deal with a couple more seasons of mediocre output here if it means finding the long term solution at the right price.

Edited by sleepyjose03, 09 December 2008 - 04:01 PM.


#5 rglenmt

  • Pip
  • 526 posts

Posted 09 December 2008 - 04:47 PM

Key is catcher does not have to be from Rangers. In Ranger history, franchise has only developed one all star, Ivan, Pudge, Rodriguez. There are a number of catchers out there. Only Teagarden is comparable to the better defensive catchers so there are other choices.

Edited by rglenmt, 09 December 2008 - 05:44 PM.


#6 sleepyjose03

  • 2410 posts

Posted 09 December 2008 - 06:35 PM

Key is catcher does not have to be from Rangers. In Ranger history, franchise has only developed one all star, Ivan, Pudge, Rodriguez. There are a number of catchers out there. Only Teagarden is comparable to the better defensive catchers so there are other choices.

I understand your point, but not too many young catchers with upside are being shopped around at this point. I think we would all prefer to have Russel Martin, but those rumors were most likely nothing more than speculation and pipe dreams.

So, yes, our next catcher does not have to come from Texas, but since they are the only team which has publicly stated their intent to move one of their young backstops, its only natural that we assume that the team with the highest probability of supplying us with a catcher would be Texas.

For the record, I also sugguest looking at the LAAAAA. I remember hearing some brief talk about them being open to moving either Napoli or Mathis, but little else on the subject, which leads me to believe it might actually be true.

#7 hotstove

  • 20 posts

Posted 09 December 2008 - 08:45 PM

Having seen what Texas got from Detroit for Gerald Laird — two pitchers yet to reach Class AA — the Arizona Diamondbacks have told people they plan to keep both Miguel Montero and Chris Snyder. Arizona had been shopping Montero but had wanted more in return than the Tigers gave up for Laird.


Rosenthal

The market is getting thinner everyday. Negotiations with the Rangers are certainly not in our favor after the Laird trade. It's starting to look like a two year deal with Varitek, platooned with Kottaras or Brown, is a very likely possibility. If someone else will give Tek what he is looking for, then we obviously take the draft pick and move on. I think the best free agent option would be Josh Bard. He seems like a good buy low option for the short term. It would be nice to find our catcher of the future and have Tek mentor him, but its just not looking realistic at this point, unless we decide to part with Buchholz.

#8 Youk of the Nation

  • 167 posts

Posted 09 December 2008 - 10:09 PM

Per WEEI

An industry official confirmed that the Diamondbacks offered the Red Sox catcher Miguel Montero for pitcher Michael Bowden. The Red Sox, who value the 22-year-old Bowden highly, turned down the offer. The two teams are expected to continue conversations to see if a fit can be found.

#9 RedSox04

  • 1239 posts

Posted 09 December 2008 - 11:32 PM

Per WEEI

An industry official confirmed that the Diamondbacks offered the Red Sox catcher Miguel Montero for pitcher Michael Bowden. The Red Sox, who value the 22-year-old Bowden highly, turned down the offer. The two teams are expected to continue conversations to see if a fit can be found.


I guess, if true, that shows what we all figured to be true, which is:

Saltalamacchia > Bowden and Bowden > Monteiro

I'm a little surprised the Sox would turn down Bowden for Monteiro, but I can understand why. The Red Sox must think that Bowden is more valuable than Monteiro, obviously, perhaps as the 1st man called up in case of injury to the starting rotation. They must think he's more likely to be a solid #3 or even #2 type pitcher than Monteiro is to be a decent catcher.

I'm glad to read that the Sox are still talking with Arizona trying to find a match, but I have trouble seeing where the Sox do match up with Arizona's needs. They need a 2B, but I don't see the Sox dealing Lowrie, nor should they. If not Bowden, who can the Sox give Arizona that is near major league ready that would help? Perhaps, because Josh Byrnes knows the organization so well, he and Theo can come to a deal that's equitable for both teams. I think they'll have to if Texas doesn't come off the Buchholz or Masterson demand for Salty. Apparently, Texas isn't that interested in Bowden, and perhaps Bowden plus doesn't do much for Texas.

Either way the Sox need to come away with a young catcher without surrendering Buchholz or Masterson.

#10 rglenmt

  • Pip
  • 526 posts

Posted 09 December 2008 - 11:34 PM

The Red Sox turning down the Diamondbacks offer of Miquel Montero for Michael Bowden tells us how highly the team values its young pitchers. With Gerald Laird having been traded to the Tigers for 2 minor league pitchers and Ramon Hernandez having been traded to the Reds for Ryan Freel, things are trying to take shape. Let's see if we list those catchers who might fall into the experienced category and the younger category who needs grooming or apprenticeship so-called before being the Red Sox starter. Here some of the catchers who fall into one of the two categories and could well be sharing Red Sox duties in the 09 season.

Experienced

Jason Varitek
Jeff Mathis
Mike Napoli
Greg Zaun
Benjie Molina
Kelly Shoppach
Josh Bard
Brian Schneider
Kevin Cash

Young Catchers

Miguel Montero
Ronny Paulino
Taylor Teagarden
Jarrod Saltalamacchia
Bryan Anderson
Jeff Clement
George Kottaras
Dusty Brown
Mark Wagner

Edited by rglenmt, 10 December 2008 - 07:39 AM.


#11 Dionysus


  • SoSH Member


  • 6643 posts

Posted 10 December 2008 - 01:29 AM

Rglenmt,

I think your post is a little disingenous. To say all those young catchers could actually be Red Sox is a bit extreme, don't you think? I doubt all of them are even being shopped. Do you really think Seattle is even considering trading Jeff Clement? That kid is a stud! He's not going anywhere and even if he did the STARTING point for negotiations would probably be Buchholz and go UP from there.

#12 RedSox04

  • 1239 posts

Posted 10 December 2008 - 07:29 AM

Is it possible that if the Sox get two veteran catchers, we're looking at Schneider and Bard as that tandem? Not that I'm dying for that. I'd rather see Salty and Bard/Brown/Varitek, but it doesn't look like it's happening and this might be the most reasonable solution that Theo finds that doesn't cost too much in $ and doesn't cost major pitching prospects.

#13 benhogan


  • self-effacing


  • 1017 posts

Posted 10 December 2008 - 08:55 AM

I think Theo has 3 choices if Tek leaves(in order of preference):
1. trade for either Teagarden(TX) or Snyder(ARZ) for Bowden + another prospect. Salty is too much of a question mark with the glove.
2. sign/trade for a LHH veteran catcher on the cheap(ie Bard, Zaun, Schneider) to platoon with Cash.
3. a platoon of Cash and Kotteras, with Dusty Brown/Mark Wagner waiting in the wings.

I think most are unfairly down on Cash. Cash hit LHP extremely well last season(.361/.442/.444 in 42 plate appearances) and is more then capable defensively, he also adds a little continuity if Tek leaves.

#14 sleepyjose03

  • 2410 posts

Posted 10 December 2008 - 10:35 AM

1. trade for either Teagarden(TX) or Snyder(ARZ) for Bowden + another prospect. Salty is too much of a question mark with the glove.

While I personally agree with you, IIRC, all the news out of Texas is that the Rangers are shopping Salty so much because the decided to move forwards with Teagarden as their backstop of the future. They apparently came to the same conclusion as you did (among others) and have similar priorities. While I'm sure they will still listen to offers for him, I don't think Theo (or any other GM for that matter) are in a position to say, Here's my offer, and I want.....THAT one. Unless the Rangers are blown away by an offer, and cant get a similar return for Salty, I doubt that we will see Teagarden going anywhere.

Then again, maybe its all a front to drive up the price. :)

#15 RedSox04

  • 1239 posts

Posted 10 December 2008 - 01:41 PM

While I personally agree with you, IIRC, all the news out of Texas is that the Rangers are shopping Salty so much because the decided to move forwards with Teagarden as their backstop of the future. They apparently came to the same conclusion as you did (among others) and have similar priorities. While I'm sure they will still listen to offers for him, I don't think Theo (or any other GM for that matter) are in a position to say, Here's my offer, and I want.....THAT one. Unless the Rangers are blown away by an offer, and cant get a similar return for Salty, I doubt that we will see Teagarden going anywhere.

Then again, maybe its all a front to drive up the price. :)


Do you think that Texas will lower the price on Salty or do you think they will stuck to demanding Buchholz or Masterson? I honestly think the Rangers, since they're losing Bradley anyways, will probably play Salty at 1B with either Blalock or Davis at 3B and the other one at DH. I don't think the Rangers will deal Salty unless they get what they want. I was hoping the Sox would get him because I think he'll emerge as one of the elite young catchers in the AL, but I honestly think Buchholz will emerge as a top notch starter with the Sox possibly by the end of this year, probably by 2010. Do you think a Bowden+/Salty trade is a realistic possibility at this point?

Edited by RedSox04, 10 December 2008 - 01:41 PM.


#16 D Jack's Dome


  • The Jinx


  • 1836 posts

Posted 10 December 2008 - 02:47 PM

Do you think that Texas will lower the price on Salty or do you think they will stuck to demanding Buchholz or Masterson? I honestly think the Rangers, since they're losing Bradley anyways, will probably play Salty at 1B with either Blalock or Davis at 3B and the other one at DH. I don't think the Rangers will deal Salty unless they get what they want. I was hoping the Sox would get him because I think he'll emerge as one of the elite young catchers in the AL, but I honestly think Buchholz will emerge as a top notch starter with the Sox possibly by the end of this year, probably by 2010. Do you think a Bowden+/Salty trade is a realistic possibility at this point?


This is my thought process as well. Since they've traded Laird and removed a major log jam, there is no reason that they won't sit on Salty and let him work the 1B/DH hole in their lineup. Obviously they gave up a decent amount to acquire him (I think we all know how desirable a player like Teixeira can be) and would like to acquire enough talent in return for Salty to justify losing a player like Teixeira. Texas is in no immediate rush to trade Saltalamachia nor should they be. Teams like the Red Sox will be large buyers at the tradedeadline thinking that one extra player can give them that final push, and trades that they wouldn't make today might seem much more appealing if they are 3-4 games back in the division as the deadline approaches. It is my gut instinct that Salty will remain a Ranger for a few months, and then you'll see him wearing a different uniform at the deadline.

Edit: Because I'm an idiot.

Edited by D Jack's Dome, 10 December 2008 - 05:03 PM.


#17 wine111

  • 252 posts

Posted 10 December 2008 - 03:00 PM

I'll support it. I've been avoiding the sandbox like the plague because I know how it gets in the off-season, but I'm glad someone's being pro-active.

On to the topic, let's discuss what's on the table in the various four or five other threads going on right now:

Varitek offered arbitration, and he declines
This means that the Red Sox will get a compensatory draft pick if he is to sign anywhere else. Detroit GM Dombrowski has been reported as saying that this makes signing Varitek a lot less attractive for his team. Varitek is still being shopped around.

Gerald Laird traded to Tigers
And Dombrowski solves the problem by aquiring Gerald Laird in a trade with the Texas Rangers. Laird was reported as being one of the options the Red Sox were looking at via trade to replace Varitek.

Remaining Texas Catchers
Teagarden, Salty, and Ramirez are still available if the FO were to make a deal with the Rangers.

Free Agent Catchers
No great options. If not Varitek, then the new Sox catcher will either be from the farm or via trade. The latter being much more likely in my opinion.

Still pretty quiet on the Catcher front right now. Perhaps the FO still has a deal on the table with Varitek and is waiting to see where he ends up.


I'd settle for the farm at this point. I want to keep our young pitchers intact and see which ones develop into quality pitchers. I don't want Bowden or Clay B dealt unless the name coming back is Russell Martin. I don't want Tek back either. If we're going to have a huge offensive hole in the lineup, I'd just as well see it in the form of Brown or Kottaras at low money rather than Tek at huge $$$ (intangibles or no). I'll take keeping unproven but talented young pitchers over acquiring unproven but talented young catchers any day.

#18 hotstove

  • 20 posts

Posted 10 December 2008 - 08:17 PM

On Varitek:
I think that ‘Tek has always been a person – he’s the captain of a team, which is a rare event. And certainly Boston has let us know we want him back. We’re talking about it. We also have to go out and look into other situations that will be able to him.

On the Sox’ interest:
Well, I mean, look, when a major league team approaches you about a player and offers them a contract, I guess that’s serious.

So he has been offered?
Yes.

Boras speaks

This is coming from Boras so you have to think he could just be trying to create market, but if true it would be interesting to know the terms of said contract offer. The fact that they have made an offer, but nothing has happened makes me think it was a one year offer. It wasn't a sure thing that they would pursue Tek at all after he declined arbitration though, so they are at least interested in bringing him back. I would be surprised if the Red Sox go higher than 2yr/$20. This really has no impact on the likelihood of a trade for a young catcher, but it seems like they aren't interested in any of the other free agents, since we haven't heard about them even contacting anyone else.

#19 Bakerofpies17

  • 234 posts

Posted 10 December 2008 - 08:32 PM

I agree, I don't think Varitek deciding to come back to the Red Sox will change their pursuit of a young catcher much at all. They've said publicly that they are looking for two catchers this offseason, and the assumption being one young upside type/one older veteran. If Varitek somehow finds someone to give him a better deal, the Red Sox will just have to find another veteran back up who could replace Tek's numbers from last year (shouldn't be too difficult). The real trouble in finding a good young catcher is their refusal to give up good young pitching (like Buchholz), not their expectations about Tek coming back.

#20 BoredViewer

  • 2242 posts

Posted 10 December 2008 - 09:24 PM

I'd settle for the farm at this point. I want to keep our young pitchers intact and see which ones develop into quality pitchers. I don't want Bowden or Clay B dealt unless the name coming back is Russell Martin. I don't want Tek back either. If we're going to have a huge offensive hole in the lineup, I'd just as well see it in the form of Brown or Kottaras at low money rather than Tek at huge $$$ (intangibles or no). I'll take keeping unproven but talented young pitchers over acquiring unproven but talented young catchers any day.


If there were catchers out there with the potential to be heart of the order hitters, that's one thing. To trade talented pitchers for an upgrade from awful to adequate in the catching slot... it doesn't make sense to me.

#21 hotstove

  • 20 posts

Posted 10 December 2008 - 09:39 PM

So, it seems the "small trade" mentioned by Ruben Amaro Jr. will be a swap of catchers. The Phils will send Class AAA catcher Jason Jaramillo to the Pirates for Ronny Paulino, a .278 hitter in parts of four seasons.

Phils Acquire Catcher

Paulino was not necessarily a target for the Red Sox, but it is one less option for us to consider. There are players being traded that had not been rumored to be on the block, so maybe there is still hope that there is a team out there offering a catching prospect that we don't know about yet.

#22 francona4prez18

  • 6 posts

Posted 10 December 2008 - 11:33 PM

what about the idea of bringing dusty brown up from triple A Pawtucket. In 84 games Brown hit .290 12 homeruns and had 55 RBI's.... just a thought

#23 MegaMan Villain

  • 28 posts

Posted 13 December 2008 - 12:16 PM

Well, I think the shoe that needs to drop for the Sox to deal with their catching situation is Jake Peavy.

On the main boards, they are talking about how after the Cubbies' trade has fallen through, it has become clear that Peavy will only be traded to one of four teams, including (that's right!) the Sox.

If we get Peavy, then we can ship B'holz to Arlington for Salty, sign Tek at a discount, and have a rotation of:

Beckett
Lester
Peavy
Dice-K
Wakes

and our catching situation figured out.

Of course, what it would take to get Peavy is another thing to think about.

#24 RedSox04

  • 1239 posts

Posted 13 December 2008 - 12:29 PM

Well, I think the shoe that needs to drop for the Sox to deal with their catching situation is Jake Peavy.

On the main boards, they are talking about how after the Cubbies' trade has fallen through, it has become clear that Peavy will only be traded to one of four teams, including (that's right!) the Sox.

If we get Peavy, then we can ship B'holz to Arlington for Salty, sign Tek at a discount, and have a rotation of:

Beckett
Lester
Peavy
Dice-K
Wakes

and our catching situation figured out.

Of course, what it would take to get Peavy is another thing to think about.


It would take at least Buchholz, so that Peavy trade idea wouldn't work. Honestly, the Sox are not trading Buchholz. They wouldn't do it for Santana, they're not going to do it for Peavy, and they're not going to do it for Salty. The Sox are not getting Peavy.

#25 rosepavano

  • 98 posts

Posted 13 December 2008 - 01:51 PM

I do not think it has been mentioned here but I read on ESPN where the Sox turned down an offer that was Bowden for Miguel Montero of AZ. I think Theo is holding out to see if they can get Salty for Bowden and say Bard or Kalish. The bottom line is Theo is not going to make a bad trade and give away the farm. If they ca. n't get someone to their liking, Tek is coming back. Their is no market for him and I have a feeling they will all hug and kiss and get a 2 year deal done

#26 MegaMan Villain

  • 28 posts

Posted 13 December 2008 - 01:57 PM

It would take at least Buchholz, so that Peavy trade idea wouldn't work. Honestly, the Sox are not trading Buchholz. They wouldn't do it for Santana, they're not going to do it for Peavy, and they're not going to do it for Salty. The Sox are not getting Peavy.


Well, really, it comes down to whether you think Peavy + Salty > Bowden and B'holz.

They wouldn't trade B'holz unless they already had Peavy, IMHO, so the question is what (besides B'holz) it would take to get Peavy, and I think the answer is Bowden plus a bag o' balls, but I could be overvaluing our pitching prospects, I suppose. (But many FOs are high on Bowden, and the Rangers need SP help fast.)

#27 RedSox04

  • 1239 posts

Posted 13 December 2008 - 03:56 PM

Well, really, it comes down to whether you think Peavy + Salty > Bowden and B'holz.

They wouldn't trade B'holz unless they already had Peavy, IMHO, so the question is what (besides B'holz) it would take to get Peavy, and I think the answer is Bowden plus a bag o' balls, but I could be overvaluing our pitching prospects, I suppose. (But many FOs are high on Bowden, and the Rangers need SP help fast.)


From everything I read, the Rangers are not high on Bowden. They clearly want Buchholz. If you use Buchholz for Salty (which the Sox rightfully refuse to do), how do you propose to get Peavy? It will take a Buchholz caliber talent to get Kevin Towers interested - he's not going to take a bag o' balls for Peavy, or else the Cubs or Braves would have had him by now.

The Sox are not getting Peavy, but they are hoping the Rangers lower their demands, which likely they won't, because they really don't need to. They have a strong farm system, so they're not as desperate as you might think. Salty can play 1B or DH for them. Unless they get a front-line starter (as opposed to the middle-of-the rotation projection that Bowden is), they're not parting with Salty.

#28 Buckner's Boots

  • 1834 posts

Posted 13 December 2008 - 04:22 PM

Honestly, the Sox are not trading Buchholz. They wouldn't do it for Santana, they're not going to do it for Peavy, and they're not going to do it for Salty.


I don't know that that's necessarily true. Buchholz's makeup issues came to light last year, and his stock can't be anywhere near as high as it was during last offseason, just coming off a no-hitter. He was untouchable then; I have a feeling he could be had for the right price now.

With Paulino now in the fold, and an apparent glut at the catcher position, is there anything that the Red Sox might pursue there? They now have Ruiz, Coste, Paulino and Marson. I'm no expert on the Phils system, but Marson seems to have a pretty solid mL track record. Do we know what his defensive reputation is? He looks like a solid, if unspectacular, potential target. However, PECOTA doesn't like him much.

#29 RedSox04

  • 1239 posts

Posted 13 December 2008 - 06:02 PM

I don't know that that's necessarily true. Buchholz's makeup issues came to light last year, and his stock can't be anywhere near as high as it was during last offseason, just coming off a no-hitter. He was untouchable then; I have a feeling he could be had for the right price now.

With Paulino now in the fold, and an apparent glut at the catcher position, is there anything that the Red Sox might pursue there? They now have Ruiz, Coste, Paulino and Marson. I'm no expert on the Phils system, but Marson seems to have a pretty solid mL track record. Do we know what his defensive reputation is? He looks like a solid, if unspectacular, potential target. However, PECOTA doesn't like him much.


I don't think the Sox organization has soured on Buchholz. I think they realize that you can't give up on a talented kid because of one awful season. Clay Buchholz is the only guy in the upper minors who projects to be a #1 or #2 starter. Bowden and Masterson don't have that ceiling. Kris Johnson doesn't. Junichi Tazawa is probably a stretch to be projected that high. That's probably one reason why the Sox are so hot to try Casey Kelly out as a pitcher. The Sox don't have any future Pedro Martinezes in the farm system. The Red Sox have quality depth, a hight quantity of promising pitchers who can contribute to the big league club, but so few of them actually project to a front-line starter like Buchholz does, and 6 years of that potential at such a low salary is very hard for Theo to give up on.

As far as the Phillies go, I know Paulino had a nice season a couple years ago in Pittsburgh, but I'm not sure he that highly regarded. Chris Coste, whom the Sox had a few years back in Pawtucket, would be great off the bench. The guy can hit, but he's not an everyday player. I'd be interested in Lou Marson, but not Carlos Ruiz. I wonder how the Phillies feel about that. Ruiz is good defensively, but I cannot imagine the Phillies would give up on Marson.

I'm coming more and more to the belief that we'll be looking at a Josh Bard/Jason Varitek tandem for the 2009 season. I hope I'm wrong about that.

#30 mcpickl

  • 2084 posts

Posted 13 December 2008 - 06:36 PM

Well, really, it comes down to whether you think Peavy + Salty > Bowden and B'holz.

They wouldn't trade B'holz unless they already had Peavy, IMHO, so the question is what (besides B'holz) it would take to get Peavy, and I think the answer is Bowden plus a bag o' balls, but I could be overvaluing our pitching prospects, I suppose. (But many FOs are high on Bowden, and the Rangers need SP help fast.)



It doesnt come down to that at all. Youre not getting Peavy for anything close to Bowden plus a bag o' balls. Are you serious?

#31 BoredViewer

  • 2242 posts

Posted 16 December 2008 - 10:44 PM

Can anyone convince me that Varitek is better than a worst-case scenario, which would be whatever the best AAAA guys the Sox can get their hands on?

Can someone give me a 'best shape of his life' report on Tek? Has he been doing nothing but hitting in the cage right-handed for the past 2 months?

Something... anything?

#32 D Jack's Dome


  • The Jinx


  • 1836 posts

Posted 17 December 2008 - 04:55 AM

Can anyone convince me that Varitek is better than a worst-case scenario, which would be whatever the best AAAA guys the Sox can get their hands on?

Can someone give me a 'best shape of his life' report on Tek? Has he been doing nothing but hitting in the cage right-handed for the past 2 months?

Something... anything?


Well, it was reported by Schilling that he was injured most of last year. Maybe he comes back at full health.

Other then that? No. your paying him 8-10Mil a year for a hole in your lineup and the myth (be it true or not) that he helps your pitching staff more then any other catcher.

#33 BranchRickeyHenderson

  • Pip
  • 35 posts

Posted 23 December 2008 - 08:45 PM

Well, it was reported by Schilling that he was injured most of last year. Maybe he comes back at full health.

Other then that? No. your paying him 8-10Mil a year for a hole in your lineup and the myth (be it true or not) that he helps your pitching staff more then any other catcher.


First of all, THIS thread should be at the top of the sandbox considering it should be the Red Sox top priority right now.

Secondly, I do not care what Tek is doing, I feel as though it would be an act of desperation to bring Tek back as our full-time catcher next season. We need to get younger at this position and start breaking in a long-term solution behind the plate. Tek's been a warrior for this team, but he's in decline. He's catcher who's going on 37 years old. His bat looks slow and his body looks old and beat up out there. The fact that someone reportedly saw him in the gym doing a "killer workout" the other day is not going to change what old man time has done to him over the last 3 season. Tek is finished as an effective starting catcher in major league baseball. If someone does give him a starting job, he'll likely hat .220 and leave that team's front office shaking their heads. Keep in mind that Tek had a terrible year at the plate last year hitting in one of the American League's best lineups.

#34 kenneycb


  • Hates Goose Island Beer; Loves Backdoor Play


  • 7219 posts

Posted 27 December 2008 - 11:37 AM

According to Amalie the Sox are still in negotiations with Varitek (actual quote is "exchanging ideas" so interpret that at your own risk). Also says the Sox want to trade for another catcher but are reluctant to give up Buchholz.

Linky goodness

#35 D Jack's Dome


  • The Jinx


  • 1836 posts

Posted 27 December 2008 - 02:34 PM

According to Amalie the Sox are still in negotiations with Varitek (actual quote is "exchanging ideas" so interpret that at your own risk). Also says the Sox want to trade for another catcher but are reluctant to give up Buchholz.

Linky goodness


So in other words, nothing has changed.

#36 Doctor G

  • 1887 posts

Posted 27 December 2008 - 05:43 PM

I would like to see the Sox resign Varitek with a promise to give hm a coaching position or a minor league manager slot after his playing career is over. What Schill says is definitely true Tek picked up some kind of bug in Japan and was fighting a losingbattle on the health front all season. I would also like to see them bring back Josh Bard, if they can't work some thing out for a younger catcher. If you have a first class rotation why have two inexperienced catchers calling the games.

#37 since67

  • 176 posts

Posted 28 December 2008 - 09:34 AM

I would like to see the Sox resign Varitek with a promise to give hm a coaching position or a minor league manager slot after his playing career is over. What Schill says is definitely true Tek picked up some kind of bug in Japan and was fighting a losingbattle on the health front all season. I would also like to see them bring back Josh Bard, if they can't work some thing out for a younger catcher. If you have a first class rotation why have two inexperienced catchers calling the games.


Schilling said he picked up some kind of bug, huh ? A "bug" that lasted all year. I don't buy it. Schilling is a good friend of Varitek. He's going to say whatever. Time to move on. 37 for a catcher is OLD. Texas has one of our future catchers. It's time to get on with it.

#38 Bakerofpies17

  • 234 posts

Posted 28 December 2008 - 08:33 PM

According to the Extra Bases Blog, the Red Sox are close to bringing back old friend Josh Bard. [topic="http://www.boston.co...eals.html"]LINK[/topic]

I'm assuming this will be to take the place of Kevin Cash, playing the role of backup whether they resign Varitek or trade for someone like Saltalamacchia. I know he struggled with injuries last year and was awful offensively, but I'm thinking Boston needs all the catching help they can get right now so probably a nice move.

#39 Jed Zeppelin


  • SoSH Member


  • 15320 posts

Posted 28 December 2008 - 08:39 PM

I wonder what this means for Tek. Obviously they could platoon but Bard certainly isn't coming back to catch Wakefield and Varitek had his issues with it in the past and is really just too old to feel good about him having to catch the knuckler. Kottaras and Brown both have experience catching Zink. I like this deal. The Sox must REALLY like Exposito and REALLY don't want to give up any of their prospects.

#40 RedSox04

  • 1239 posts

Posted 28 December 2008 - 08:46 PM

I'm wondering if we're going to see some sort of Varitek/Bard tandem. It was ugly the last time Bard tried to catch Wakefield, but to be fair, Theo knew that he didn't give Bard much of a chance and was too impatient. I doubt Theo would be that impatient with the same guy twice.

I do hope, though, that the tandem is Bard and a young guy. I did note that it isn't a guaranteed contract, so perhaps there's still a chance we'll see a young catcher and Varitek anyways.

#41 EllisBurksIsLouRawlsCool

  • 26 posts

Posted 28 December 2008 - 08:52 PM

I wonder what this means for Tek. Obviously they could platoon but Bard certainly isn't coming back to catch Wakefield and Varitek had his issues with it in the past and is really just too old to feel good about him having to catch the knuckler. Kottaras and Brown both have experience catching Zink. I like this deal. The Sox must REALLY like Exposito and REALLY don't want to give up any of their prospects.


Also helps make them look (a little) less desperate for a catcher if they really have no intentions of bringing back Tek and are still pushing for a Montero or Salty/Teagarden deal.

Thought just popped into my head regarding taking on Byrnes' contract in order to acquire Montero. That is, is there a contract the Rangers would want to unload that the Sox would be willing to eat in order to help facilitate a Salty/Teagarden trade? Guess I'll have to go looking......

Edit:
I guess the potential contracts they'd want to unload might start with Padilla ($12 million per for '09 and '10) and Millwood ($11 million in '09, $12 in '10), but given their lack of quality starting pitching I can't see this happening. Not to mention the Sox rotation is potentialy close to being full with the Penny signing (if true).................I'd want no part of Michael Young's contract ($13 million/year from '09 through 2013)..............If they were looking to unload Blalock ($6.2 million for '09), I'd think the Sox might have some interest - but where to play him? Can't imagine he'd be willing to be a bench player. Seems as though Texas would be able to get something better for Blalock in a trade anyway..............Frank Catalanotto (if only because he always seems to kill the Red Sox)?

Edited by EllisBurksIsLouRawlsCool, 28 December 2008 - 09:12 PM.


#42 D Jack's Dome


  • The Jinx


  • 1836 posts

Posted 28 December 2008 - 08:53 PM

I'm wondering if we're going to see some sort of Varitek/Bard tandem. It was ugly the last time Bard tried to catch Wakefield, but to be fair, Theo knew that he didn't give Bard much of a chance and was too impatient. I doubt Theo would be that impatient with the same guy twice.
I do hope, though, that the tandem is Bard and a young guy. I did note that it isn't a guaranteed contract, so perhaps there's still a chance we'll see a young catcher and Varitek anyways.


Was going to say the same thing. Bard wasn't given a fair shake and they quickly went back to Dougy. You're not going to stumble into a Mirabelli, so the Sox will have to make due with what they have and hope someone can learn to catch Wake.

#43 Bakerofpies17

  • 234 posts

Posted 28 December 2008 - 09:07 PM

Was going to say the same thing. Bard wasn't given a fair shake and they quickly went back to Dougy. You're not going to stumble into a Mirabelli, so the Sox will have to make due with what they have and hope someone can learn to catch Wake.


I'm hoping this is a sign that the personal catcher deal is done with. Sign/trade for at least 2 catchers and find out who can best catch Wakefield yes, but relegating one to only be Wake's catcher just isn't going to work anymore.

If Varitek is back next year there's no way he should be playing 4 out of 5 games. If its Bard and Tek there has to be a more reasonable platoon for playing time. Same for a combination of Bard/new young catcher. There are no legitimate options for Boston that I could see starting at Catcher 4/5 games in 09 so signing multiple guys is probably the best approach. Considering that Bard's contract isn't even guaranteed, this sounds like a pretty good fall back option.

#44 mcpickl

  • 2084 posts

Posted 28 December 2008 - 09:11 PM

Eh, Bards just a guy. Kevin Cashesque.

If he gets more than 150 ABs then the offense out of the catcher spot will be no better than last year.

My hope is he doesn't make the team.

#45 Bakerofpies17

  • 234 posts

Posted 28 December 2008 - 09:18 PM

Eh, Bards just a guy. Kevin Cashesque.

If he gets more than 150 ABs then the offense out of the catcher spot will be no better than last year.

My hope is he doesn't make the team.



He's a lot better (offensively) than Cash. Last year he had a down year due to injuries but in the two years before that he had good numbers while playing at Petco.

Career Stats

Bard .265/.333/.395 (1311 ABs)
Cash .184/.248/.285 (501 ABs


Edit: Grammar

Edited by Bakerofpies17, 28 December 2008 - 09:19 PM.


#46 mcpickl

  • 2084 posts

Posted 28 December 2008 - 09:42 PM

He's a lot better (offensively) than Cash. Last year he had a down year due to injuries but in the two years before that he had good numbers while playing at Petco.

Career Stats

Bard .265/.333/.395 (1311 ABs)
Cash .184/.248/.285 (501 ABs


Edit: Grammar


Well thats aiming high! Thats one step above saying hes better than me.

Hes just a guy.

Bill James 2009 Projections

Josh Bard 337/392/729
Jason Varitek 334/392/726

Dang! Thats almost identical. Yet one guy we want out of here on a rail, and the other guy is part of the solution. Thats without mentioning Bard being among the league low in chucking out runners.

I dont see it.

#47 Jed Zeppelin


  • SoSH Member


  • 15320 posts

Posted 28 December 2008 - 09:54 PM

Well thats aiming high! Thats one step above saying hes better than me.

Hes just a guy.

Bill James 2009 Projections

Josh Bard 337/392/729
Jason Varitek 334/392/726

Dang! Thats almost identical. Yet one guy we want out of here on a rail, and the other guy is part of the solution. Thats without mentioning Bard being among the league low in chucking out runners.

I dont see it.


A .730 OPS from both catchers would be much better than last season; not what we're all hoping for obviously but still an upgrade. Kevin Cash is historically bad offensively and Josh Bard is around average (for a catcher) with the potential to be above average. I'm very interested to see where the FO is going with the catcher situation.

#48 P'tucket, rhymes with...


  • SoSH Member


  • 7917 posts

Posted 28 December 2008 - 09:57 PM

Bill James 2009 Projections

Josh Bard 337/392/729
Jason Varitek 334/392/726


Looks like snagging Bard at $1.6m is a pretty damning summation of Ted's market value.

#49 SaladParmesan

  • 572 posts

Posted 28 December 2008 - 10:02 PM

Inconsistency is the name of the game here with Bard, reaching 300 ABs just twice by age 30. Obviously some of that is due to playing a backup role. In those two years he put up OPS+ lines of 78 and 107.

Posted Image

Factor in a career CS% of 18.8% (Varitek's is 25.3%, for reference), and it is clear that this is no more than a stopgap move. Certainly Bard can be the team's everyday catcher in 2009 and perform better than Kevin Cash would. At a savings of an estimated $5M+ over Varitek for next year, I see this as simply a more cost-effective way of allowing ourselves to wait until our catcher of the future becomes a reality.

#50 mcpickl

  • 2084 posts

Posted 28 December 2008 - 10:06 PM

Looks like snagging Bard at $1.6m is a pretty damning summation of Ted's market value.



Sure, if it were in a vacuum and only included what the guy does at the plate.

But, it's not and it doesn't.