19 replies to this topic

[RedOctober3829]

Mike Francessa just announced on WFAN that the Red Sox will be playing the New York Mets in the first games in the new Citi Field. I believe the dates are Friday April 3rd and Saturday April 4. They are playing at the same time both days that the Yankees open up the new Yankee Stadium against the Chicago Cubs.

[sodenj5]

So, are they playing exhibition games during the season, or is the season not slated to start until the following week? I wasn't a big fan of when they played the exhibition games against the Dodgers after starting the season in Japan.

[RedOctober3829]

So, are they playing exhibition games during the season, or is the season not slated to start until the following week? I wasn't a big fan of when they played the exhibition games against the Dodgers after starting the season in Japan.

They open the season at home against Tampa Bay on April 6.

[mr guido]

They open the season at home against Tampa Bay on April 6.

Because the World Baseball Classic 2009 is pushing back the start of the season, for anyone who was wondering.

[mabrowndog]

Mike Francessa just announced on WFAN that the Red Sox will be playing the New York Mets in the first games in the new Citi Field. I believe the dates are Friday April 3rd and Saturday April 4. They are playing at the same time both days that the Yankees open up the new Yankee Stadium against the Chicago Cubs.

If true, then the games will be Friday night and Saturday afternoon per ESPN.

[BrooklynDog45]

What do we figure the Sox clear from these two games? $1 million per after expenses or more then that? I'm actually suprises you don't see more of these games before the season. Even at Fenway.

Edited by BrooklynDog45, 18 November 2008 - 10:05 AM.

[RedOctober3829]

What do we figure the Sox clear from these two games? $1 million per after expenses or more then that? I'm actually suprises you don't see more of these games before the season. Even at Fenway.

The Red Sox are in demand as an exhibition opponent because they are one of best road attractions in the game. At the same time, such contests are lucrative for the Sox, earning guarantees of $500,000 or more for two games. Such guarantees help defray the cost of spring training.

McAdam

[Quintanariffic]

McAdam

Help defray the cost of Spring Training? Really? Would it be too much for a professional sportwriter to look into the real economics of Spring Training where the Red Sox sell out every available seat? A quick Google search indicates that City of Palms Park seats 8,000 and the Red Sox average 15 Spring Training home games per year - that's 120,000 seats sold. You've got to figure that between tickets, food, and whatever other revenue sources exist, they are bringing in about $20/person or more. That's $2.4MM to defray the costs of Spring Training. I'd be highly suspect of anyone claiming the Red sox lose money on ST.

[Lose Remerswaal]

Help defray the cost of Spring Training? Really? Would it be too much for a professional sportwriter to look into the real economics of Spring Training where the Red Sox sell out every available seat? A quick Google search indicates that City of Palms Park seats 8,000 and the Red Sox average 15 Spring Training home games per year - that's 120,000 seats sold. You've got to figure that between tickets, food, and whatever other revenue sources exist, they are bringing in about $20/person or more. That's $2.4MM to defray the costs of Spring Training. I'd be highly suspect of anyone claiming the Red sox lose money on ST.

I'd be surprised if Spring training costs anything less than double that $2.4 million. Counting salaries, transportation, housing, medical care, etc, etc, etc. Don't forget that food and merchandise sales aren't 100% profit -- there's costs of goods sold, including salaries of the guys selling the stuff.

[Quintanariffic]

I'd be surprised if Spring training costs anything less than double that $2.4 million. Counting salaries, transportation, housing, medical care, etc, etc, etc. Don't forget that food and merchandise sales aren't 100% profit -- there's costs of goods sold, including salaries of the guys selling the stuff.

What salaries? MLB players only get paid during the regular season. Who besides beer guy and some ticket takers are on the payroll that normally wouldn't be?

Transportation generally involves a bus, though I suspect that housing is the biggest ticket item. Still, I'd take the under on your $4.8MM estimate all day long. As for COGS on food - alcohol is generally sold at 300% mark-ups and food around 100%, so the beer guy is taken care of halfway through his first tray.

[BoSoxLady]

What salaries? MLB players only get paid during the regular season. Who besides beer guy and some ticket takers are on the payroll that normally wouldn't be?

Transportation generally involves a bus, though I suspect that housing is the biggest ticket item. Still, I'd take the under on your $4.8MM estimate all day long. As for COGS on food - alcohol is generally sold at 300% mark-ups and food around 100%, so the beer guy is taken care of halfway through his first tray.

The Red Sox move dozens of employees throughout the organization to Fort Myers for eight weeks. During that time, the Red Sox pay the housing and most likely, transportation costs for the employees. AFA the players are concerned, every player in the organization receives a stipend for housing plus meal money for every day of spring training until opening day.

Lee County owns City of Palms Park, and the Red Sox pay $300,000 in rent annually, plus utilities and other capital expenses. The Red Sox derive no revenue from the parking, as Lee County owns the parking lot. Regarding the revenue derived from beer, food, etc....Do you think Aramark supplies their products for free? It's not all profit for the Red Sox.

[Quintanariffic]

The Red Sox move dozens of employees throughout the organization to Fort Myers for eight weeks. During that time, the Red Sox pay the housing and most likely, transportation costs for the employees. AFA the players are concerned, every player in the organization receives a stipend for housing plus meal money for every day of spring training until opening day.

Lee County owns City of Palms Park, and the Red Sox pay $300,000 in rent annually, plus utilities and other capital expenses. The Red Sox derive no revenue from the parking, as Lee County owns the parking lot. Regarding the revenue derived from beer, food, etc....Do you think Aramark supplies their products for free? It's not all profit for the Red Sox.

I understand that, which is why I used the $20/head estimate. Clearly, the total revenue generated per ST game attendee is quite a bit higher than that on avg.

As for moving the dozens of employees, I suspect they are either staying in condo complexes where t5he Red sox have negotiated discounted rates or in the equivalents of Holiday Inn express where they have done the same. If the Sox need to house a total of 150 people including players and employees for six weeks, my guess is that the avg. cost works out to about $50/person/night, and that's being generous (all but the guys with guaranteed contracts and the top FO brass are staying in downmarket places with roommates). That's 150x$50x42 days = a whopping $315K.

Add in $300K rent. The meal stipend is likely pretty generous ($100-200/day) for the guys with guaranteed contracts, not so much for the vast majority of players in camp (maybe $25-30?). Call it an avg. of $50/day/person for the 100 or so guys in camp (ml and ML) and that's $210K. Bussing around Florida and the occasional charter can't be more than $150-200K for the 15-ish road game they play. So even being generous, I'm having trouble getting to $1MM in total expenses. Even if I assume the Sox generate only $10 per paying customer, there is still a few hundred thousand left for profit.

[Lose Remerswaal]

Per this, from spring training 2007, player per diems are $146/day, or $12K/day for a team. That's just for the Major League players. Add in 100 or so minor leaguers (at a much lower rate, but many more of them) and the other staffers, and this is getting to be a real number.

I'd love to know where you got that $50/night negotiated rate from. I've linked to something that shows the per diem costs for 2007 -- if you've looked at housing in Spring Training areas, $50/night seems pretty damn low

[BoSoxLady]

I understand that, which is why I used the $20/head estimate. Clearly, the total revenue generated per ST game attendee is quite a bit higher than that on avg.

As for moving the dozens of employees, I suspect they are either staying in condo complexes where t5he Red sox have negotiated discounted rates or in the equivalents of Holiday Inn express where they have done the same. If the Sox need to house a total of 150 people including players and employees for six weeks, my guess is that the avg. cost works out to about $50/person/night, and that's being generous (all but the guys with guaranteed contracts and the top FO brass are staying in downmarket places with roommates). That's 150x$50x42 days = a whopping $315K.

Add in $300K rent. The meal stipend is likely pretty generous ($100-200/day) for the guys with guaranteed contracts, not so much for the vast majority of players in camp (maybe $25-30?). Call it an avg. of $50/day/person for the 100 or so guys in camp (ml and ML) and that's $210K. Bussing around Florida and the occasional charter can't be more than $150-200K for the 15-ish road game they play. So even being generous, I'm having trouble getting to $1MM in total expenses. Even if I assume the Sox generate only $10 per paying customer, there is still a few hundred thousand left for profit.

When was the last time you stayed in the Fort Myers area for $50 a night during Feb/March? You can't find a Motel 6 for that, even at a negotiated rate. I've put groups together for spring training several times and even at a negotiated group rate for 100+ people, the cost averaged $100+ per night and that was a Holiday Inn, not the Ritz in Naples. The major-leaguers and coaching staffs rent condos or homes, usually on a golf course. As someone who rented for several years during spring training, the cost was $3500 a month for a small home. The minor-leaguers typically stay in a team hotel and have a room-mate. Your per day cost is way off. Any revenue the Red Sox make by bringing their road show to another park is gravy. Instead of criticizing the Red Sox' revenue stream, explain to me why the Yankees are holding exhibition games at the new Toilet.

Edited by BoSoxLady, 18 November 2008 - 04:00 PM.

[RetractableRoof]

When was the last time you stayed in the Fort Myers area for $50 a night during Feb/March? You can't find a Motel 6 for that, even at a negotiated rate. I've put groups together for spring training several times and even at a negotiated group rate for 100+ people, the cost averaged $100+ per night and that was a Holiday Inn, not the Ritz in Naples. The major-leaguers and coaching staffs rent condos or homes, usually on a golf course. As someone who rented for several years during spring training, the cost was $3500 a month for a small home. The minor-leaguers typically stay in a team hotel and have a room-mate. Your per day cost is way off. Any revenue the Red Sox make by bringing their road show to another park is gravy. Instead of criticizing the Red Sox' revenue stream, explain to me why the Yankees are holding exhibition games at the new Toilet.

I think it is lame and unfair to the fans who typically patronize the Spring Training games... but if I had to guess, I'd say they are going to spin it thusly: "Hosting the Spring Training games at the new park gives us the opportunity to work out the kinks and little bugs in our systems, and services, etc. to avoid inconveniencing the fans who attend the games that count".

Either way, lame... but that's how I'd spin it.

[Quintanariffic]

Per this, from spring training 2007, player per diems are $146/day, or $12K/day for a team. That's just for the Major League players. Add in 100 or so minor leaguers (at a much lower rate, but many more of them) and the other staffers, and this is getting to be a real number.

I'd love to know where you got that $50/night negotiated rate from. I've linked to something that shows the per diem costs for 2007 -- if you've looked at housing in Spring Training areas, $50/night seems pretty damn low

Lose -

I found the most interesting portion of your linked story to be this:

Even then, the Rays won't incur as much expense for spring training as other clubs because of the proximity to St. Petersburg and the administrative staff's ability to spend some time at home. It will cost the club somewhere in the low six figures, Matt Silverman, Rays' president said.

So while the Rays will save money b/c they are pretty much local, they will spend "in the low six figures". Let's be generous and call that $250K. If you assume that the Red Sox spend 4x as much on their ST, that's the $1MM I referred to above. They still have to pay for transportation, housing for players not located in the Tampa area (i.e. the majority - only a small minority of ST players are 25 man roster guys), and meal stipends.

Also, I'm not sure why you'd quible with my estimate for meal stipends - I assumed $100-200/day for the guys on the 25 man roster, but they only represent a small minority of the players in camp. If ml stipends are any barometer (and they really should be), most ml ST attendees and the majority of FO folks with get in the neighborhood of $20-30/day plus all they can eat in the clubhouse spread (cold cuts don't cost much). I think an average of $50/day is quite reasonable in that regard. Even at $75/day, that's an additional $100K and doesn't really come close to breaking the bank.

I'll address the housing issue in response to BSL's post up thread.

Edit: Using the same assumptions on the breakdown between ML players, ML coaching staff, top-tier FO guys vs. ml players and lower tier FO staff, here is the breakdown on meal stipends.

40 people at $142/day and 110 people at $25/day makes for an average of $56.20/day. Again - I don't see where I'm dramatically off-base here.

Edited by Quintanariffic, 18 November 2008 - 04:34 PM.

[Quintanariffic]

When was the last time you stayed in the Fort Myers area for $50 a night during Feb/March? You can't find a Motel 6 for that, even at a negotiated rate. I've put groups together for spring training several times and even at a negotiated group rate for 100+ people, the cost averaged $100+ per night and that was a Holiday Inn, not the Ritz in Naples. The major-leaguers and coaching staffs rent condos or homes, usually on a golf course. As someone who rented for several years during spring training, the cost was $3500 a month for a small home. The minor-leaguers typically stay in a team hotel and have a room-mate. Your per day cost is way off. Any revenue the Red Sox make by bringing their road show to another park is gravy. Instead of criticizing the Red Sox' revenue stream, explain to me why the Yankees are holding exhibition games at the new Toilet.

BSL -

Your own numbers support my point. If the Sox, who likely have more pull and resources than the avg (or even above avg) ST trip organizer, can rent a small home on a golf course for $3500/month, that equates to $117/day. the major leaguers and coaching staff, plus the top tier of the FO, represent no more than 40 people max. Let's then focus on the ml players and lower-tier FO guys who constitute the vast majority of ST attendees. If a small home on a golf course goes for $3500/month, one would imagine that a small home in a less desirable location goes for a discount to that - let's say $2700/month. Since you're avg small home can sleep 3-4 single men/women, that works out to $22.50-30/day/person. I feel pretty confident that if the Sox can spend $22.50-30/person/day by renting a small home or condo, they are not willingly volunteering to pay more than that in whatever accommodations their players actually sleep.

Assuming that 40 of my guestimated 150 total people are housed at $117/day and the remaining 110 are housed at $30/day, that comes out to a weighted avg of $53.20 per person per day. I'm not trying to be a weenie here, but I haven't seen any evidence that my estimates are dramatically off base here.

[smastroyin]

Not that we don't all love a nice pedantic discussion, but I think the one thing we can agree on is that the difference in whether the Sox cover their costs or not in spring training is like a gnat on the ass of the giant elephant that is the rest of the Red Sox financial clout.

[Quintanariffic]

Not that we don't all love a nice pedantic discussion, but I think the one thing we can agree on is that the difference in whether the Sox cover their costs or not in spring training is like a gnat on the ass of the giant elephant that is the rest of the Red Sox financial clout.

Absolutely, but the whole "defray the costs of ST" line struck me in the same way as the self-proclaimed magnanimity of freezing ticket prices for 2009. I don't mind the Sox generating bookoo revenues - they clearly are committed to winning and that's good enough for me. What I object to is fat, lazy sportwriters parroting the party line.

Sorry for the distraction. Now back to your regularly scheduled Pedroia love.

[sittingstill]

I think it is lame and unfair to the fans who typically patronize the Spring Training games... but if I had to guess, I'd say they are going to spin it thusly: "Hosting the Spring Training games at the new park gives us the opportunity to work out the kinks and little bugs in our systems, and services, etc. to avoid inconveniencing the fans who attend the games that count".

Why is it lame and unfair to have exhibition games at Citi, as opposed to, say, the on-deck series the Sox played in Philadelphia in 2006 and 2007?