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2008-09 Non-Celtics NBA Thread


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#51 shane88888

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Posted 13 November 2008 - 12:07 AM

You guys are missing the obvious comp - Carmelo. Their numbers were very similar as college freshmen and NBA rookies, despite the Sonics/Thunder insisting on playing Durant out of his natural position. The interesting thing will be if Durant makes his leap after the ASB this season or some time next season.


Good comparison (esp. the parallel career paths).

I think that's an optimistic time line for Durant, even if you consider that Melo's growth has probably been stunted by often having his head up his ass on and off the court. Durant's brutal supporting cast probably won't help his development, though Jeff Green is starting to look like he might by useful.

Melo always put up points but it took him 4.5 seasons to start scoring really efficiently. We won't get into the lack of rebounding and defensive intensity - you know, the things that have to do with winning. With that stroke, I thought he would have been a much better 3p shooter sooner. He was brutal up until last season.

He's not in Wade's or Lebron's league and, for one season, I'd rather have Caron Butler. He's an All-Star player and still very young, but I expected bigger things from Melo. Then again, it took like seven seasons for Paul Pierce to go from excellent scorer to great player. I'm really hoping we see more from Durant.

#52 Sprowl


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Posted 13 November 2008 - 12:43 AM

Bosh plays inside the perimeter, with fewer big teammates; his job is/was fundamentally different from Durant's, thus there is no basis for comparison there.

Bosh's game has been moving out to the perimeter as teams have learned to deny him the ball in the post. He now regularly takes and makes 22-foot jumpers, and drives with either hand. The 10-foot turnaround jumper from the post that was his bread-and-butter during his first two years in the league is pretty much gone from his repertoire, not because he can't make it, but because he has extended his range and O'Neal has taken over as a low post option. Now that O'Neal and Bargnani have given the Raptors some size, Bosh is showing more of a small forward's game.

I haven't seen Durant yet this year; last year as a Sonic, he had a pretty good handle, but he did seem reluctant to get closer than 10 feet from the basket. 45% shooting for a team's only real option, shooting mostly from distance, is pretty respectable. Unwillingness to get after his man on defense or to hit the boards... not so much.

#53 Jack Sox

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Posted 13 November 2008 - 02:51 AM

Umm anyone see the Rockets-Suns game tonight? Some serious personalities involved in the pushing and shoving - Shaq, Tracy McGrady, Yao, Steve Nash.

#54 ifmanis5


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Posted 13 November 2008 - 06:38 AM

Umm anyone see the Rockets-Suns game tonight? Some serious personalities involved in the pushing and shoving - Shaq, Tracy McGrady, Yao, Steve Nash.

And yet no Artest! I guess the Xanax is working.

#55 keving18

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Posted 13 November 2008 - 11:27 AM

Durant is averaging 5 rebounds a game and that's quite good for a 2/3. He can also block shots, which most 2/3's can't. Calling him one-dimensional is pretty inaccurate at this point.

He isn't a superstar yet but that's to be expected, given his age. Give him a couple more years to add a little more muscle and he'll be just fine.

Edited by keving18, 13 November 2008 - 11:28 AM.


#56 Sam Ray Not

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Posted 13 November 2008 - 12:05 PM

Durant is averaging 5 rebounds a game and that's quite good for a 2/3. He can also block shots, which most 2/3's can't. Calling him one-dimensional is pretty inaccurate at this point.

He isn't a superstar yet but that's to be expected, given his age. Give him a couple more years to add a little more muscle and he'll be just fine.

4.6 reb/36 and 1.0 blocks/36 career, with, thus far, no sign of a big jump in either this season. Not impressive for a guy with his length and athleticism, regardless of position or age. McGrady, on whom he has 2-3 inches, averaged nearly twice as many boards and blocks on per minute basis in his age 18-19 seasons: 8.2 / 1.9 and 9.0 / 2.1, respectively. McGrady was also much better at distributing and taking care of the ball.

I'm not sure which part of "the crappy Sonics were marginally less crappy last season with Durant off the floor" is unclear. It's too early to look at plus/minus numbers for this season, but thus far the only area in which Durant seems to have improved slightly from last year is shooting. He's dropped off from his already poor ast/to numbers: 2.0/3.3 so far. Totally unacceptable for a starting 2.

The question was never whether or not Durant would be "just fine." Given his college numbers, and the hype surrounding him, it was more whether he'd be the type of once-in-a-generation star you build a championship contender around, or just a garden-variety star. Given that McGrady has still not proven himself to be the former, it's hard to be too sanguine about Durant's shot at same, even given his tender age.

Edited by Sam Ray Not, 13 November 2008 - 12:11 PM.


#57 ElUno20

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 10:20 PM

I know it might be blasphemy but Gary Payton & Chris Webber on NBATV are as entertaining as...Ernie, Chuck and Kenny. They do NO analysis. NONE. Not a drop. They just sit there and tell jokes.

And the segment they just had with Payton going through the all-star ballot and naming the guys who should NOT be on the ballot was hilarious.

"Who is this guy? You have no STATS!"

"Collison should not be in the NBA!" (he played with Nick in Seattle).

Edited by ElUno20, 18 November 2008 - 10:25 PM.


#58 brewdawg819

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 10:30 PM

Strong game from Powe and Perkins. Great sign seeing as Garnett wasn't playing.

#59 dolomite133


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Posted 20 November 2008 - 12:49 AM

Two things caught my eye tonight. First, the Blazers are absolutely, positively killing - KILLING - the Bulls. Remember a few years back when everyone thought Chicago was emerging as one of the top teams in the East? bwah haw haw haw! The Blazers are up around 40 now. Nearly as brutal as the Celtics win in Game 7 last season. Maybe even moreso, depending on how things end up.

Also, that trade is looking pretty good for the Nuggets, who just beat San Antoinio. Yeah, the Spurs are undermanned, but the Nuggets are 8-4. And nice to see LeBron and Co. fall to Iverson and the Pistons. Very, very satisfying. You know, the more I think about it, the Cavs might have cracked the Top 5 in my most hated team list.

#60 keving18

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 08:17 AM

McGrady was also much better at distributing and taking care of the ball.

This is Tracy McGrady you're talking about, right? The guy who never saw a shot he didn't like? That one?

#61 HomeRunBaker


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Posted 20 November 2008 - 09:57 AM

McGrady was also much better at distributing and taking care of the ball.

This is Tracy McGrady you're talking about, right? The guy who never saw a shot he didn't like? That one?


Pre-LeBron it was McGrady who led all SF's in Assists for many years with Orlando and then later under Van Gundy in Houston. McGrady has always been an excellent passer but yeah, Doc and Van Gundy preferred him taking shots rather than guys like Pat Garrity, Jacque Vaughn and Luther Head......or many other of the very ordinary at-best players that T-Mac has been surrounded with throughout his career.

He is a shell of his former self now with the knee problem but McGrady always was a very good and willing distributor of the ball.

#62 Sam Ray Not

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 12:36 PM

McGrady was also much better at distributing and taking care of the ball.

This is Tracy McGrady you're talking about, right? The guy who never saw a shot he didn't like? That one?

Just to make sure: you realize the "better" you're citing is a comparative -- specifically, better than Kevin Durant -- not a superlative ("better than anyone," "better than Jesus", "better than Jordan," e.g.)?

Durant
Age 19 season: 2.5 / 3.0 assists-to-turnovers per 36
Age 20 season: 2.0 / 3.6 (through 11 games)

McGrady
Age 18 season: 3.0 / 2.0
Age 19 season: 3.7 / 2.6
Age 20 season: 3.8 / 2.3

Factor in McGrady's huge edge in rebounds, steals, and blocks, and marginal deficit in TS% (roughly .520 to .510), and there's basically no case to be made that Durant's NBA career has started more auspiciously than TMac's did. Remind me again what argument you're trying to make?

#63 keving18

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 12:42 PM

Just to make sure: you realize the "better" you're citing is a comparative -- specifically, better than Kevin Durant -- not a superlative ("better than anyone," "better than Jesus", "better than Jordan," e.g.)?

Durant
Age 19 season: 2.5 / 3.0 assists-to-turnovers per 36
Age 20 season: 2.0 / 3.6 (through 11 games)

McGrady
Age 18 season: 3.0 / 2.0
Age 19 season: 3.7 / 2.6
Age 20 season: 3.8 / 2.3

Factor in McGrady's huge edge in rebounds, steals, and blocks, and marginal deficit in TS% (roughly .520 to .510), and there's basically no case to be made that Durant's NBA career has started more auspiciously than TMac's did. Remind me again what argument you're trying to make?


It's hard to turn the ball over when you're jacking it up from the cheap seats as soon as you touch it. There's a lot more to being a good passer than simply not turning the ball over.

Check the shooting percentages of the 2 players and get back to me on the "no case to be made" thing.

Edited by keving18, 20 November 2008 - 12:45 PM.


#64 PJ Martinez

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 12:58 PM

Okay, I'll bite. McGrady and Durant in their age 19 & 20 seasons seem to have nearly identical shooting percentages.

McGrady was at .436 and then .451 at 19 & 20. Durant was at .430 last year and is at .450 this year so far.

From 3-point range: TM at .229 and then .277, with KD at .288 and this year, so far, at .400. McGrady, it should be noted, didn't shoot threes very often (just 35 in his age 19 year and 65 the next), while Durant has been less reserved: 205 last year, 15 so far this year. (Of course, if he can keep up that 40% rate, then 15 in 11 games is perfectly reasonable.)

In sum, though, I don't see how shooting percentages make any case for Durant having a more auspicious start. Looks about even so far on this particular metric.

Edit: Durant does make free throws at a considerably better rate (which, I suspect, accounts for his slight edge in TS%? I don't know how that stat is calculated...).

Edited by PJ Martinez, 20 November 2008 - 01:01 PM.


#65 keving18

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 01:03 PM

Okay, I'll bite. McGrady and Durant in their age 19 & 20 seasons seem to have nearly identical shooting percentages.

McGrady was at .436 and then .451 at 19 & 20. Durant was at .430 last year and is at .450 this year so far.

From 3-point range: TM at .229 and then .277, with KD at .288 and this year, so far, at .400. McGrady, it should be noted, didn't shoot threes very often (just 35 in his age 19 year and 65 the next), while Durant has been less reserved: 205 last year, 15 so far this year. (Of course, if he can keep up that 40% rate, then 15 in 11 games is perfectly reasonable.)

In sum, though, I don't see how shooting percentages make any case for Durant having a more auspicious start. Looks about even so far on this particular metric.


Two things:

1) you forgot FT%

2) That .450 McGrady put up at age 18 is above his career average. Durant is going to kill him there.

#66 PJ Martinez

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 01:42 PM

2) That .450 McGrady put up at age 18 is above his career average. Durant is going to kill him there.


Perhaps (though I thought the debate was about whether Durant's start was better than McGrady's, not whether he'd be better eventually). It does seem remarkable how McGrady's FG% has deteriorated from those so-so beginnings. He's under 40% in the early going this season, after his 42% last year.

Might Durant's solid free throw shooting be evidence that his FG% will some day improve? Do players usually become more accurate shooters over the course of their careers?

Edited by PJ Martinez, 20 November 2008 - 01:44 PM.


#67 Sam Ray Not

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 02:01 PM

It's hard to turn the ball over when you're jacking it up from the cheap seats as soon as you touch it. There's a lot more to being a good passer than simply not turning the ball over.

Check the shooting percentages of the 2 players and get back to me on the "no case to be made" thing.

McGrady v. Durant, age 19 season (per 36 min)
Pts -- 14.9 / 21.1
Reb -- 9.0 / 4.5
Ast -- 3.7 / 2.5
Stl -- 1.7 / 1.0
Blk -- 2.1 / 0.9
TO -- 2.0 / 3.0
TS%.-- .504 / .519
PER -- 20.6 / 15.8

McGrady v. Durant, age 20 season (per 36)
Pts -- 17.7 / 21.9
Reb -- 7.3 / 4.3
Ast -- 3.8 / 2.0
Stl -- 1.3 / 1.0
Blk -- 2.2 / 0.6
TO -- 2.3 / 3.6
TS% -- .509 / .511
PER -- 20.0 / 15.9

Couldn't find a source for plus/minus before 2002 but here's TMac's last seven seasons (including this one)
McGrady +11.8, +4.4, +2.0, +5.9, +7.8, +1.4, +3.0

And here's Durant so far:
Durant -8.8, -3.3

It should be noted that PER tends to overvalue scoring/shooting (as it relates to wins) and undervalue rebounding and D. Unsurprisingly, it looks suspiciously like TMac has helped his team every year he's been in the league while Durant has hurt his. I suppose you could base an argument for Durant around points scored and FT%, just as you could base an argument for Juan Pierre over Barry Bonds around base hits and stolen bases. Whatever floats your boat.

That .450 McGrady put up at age 18 is above his career average. Durant is going to kill him there.

Setting aside your crystal ball, I believe the "debate," such as it is, is about who had a better start to their NBA career ... no?

Edit: If you're interested, Berri / Wages of Wins recently posted an update on Durant and his mediocre NBA start.

Last season Durant was above average with respect to taking shots, blocking shots, hitting free throws, and avoiding personal fouls. He was also a little bit above average on the boards. With respect to all other stats, though, he was below average.

Speaking of Durant, much has been made of his rookie performance. According to the coaches and the media, Durant was the top rookie in 2007-08. According to the Wages of Wins metrics, though, he was well below average. Although Durant did not play well last season, there was hope he would get better. After 10 games, though, that hope has not been realized.

After 10 games this season Durant has the same profile. But now he has declined further with respect to every statistic except for shot attempts and personal fouls. Yes, Durant went from bad to really bad.


Edited by Sam Ray Not, 20 November 2008 - 02:13 PM.


#68 Silent Chief

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 03:33 PM

New Orleans, 5-5 and lost to a Martin-less Kings team?

#69 dolomite133


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Posted 20 November 2008 - 04:16 PM

New Orleans, 5-5 and lost to a Martin-less Kings team?


Yeah, that's pretty fucked. Another case of Byron Scott holding back a great team (at least, according to what Jason Kidd was heard screaming, behind closed doors)???

#70 keving18

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 04:22 PM

Perhaps (though I thought the debate was about whether Durant's start was better than McGrady's, not whether he'd be better eventually). It does seem remarkable how McGrady's FG% has deteriorated from those so-so beginnings. He's under 40% in the early going this season, after his 42% last year.

Might Durant's solid free throw shooting be evidence that his FG% will some day improve? Do players usually become more accurate shooters over the course of their careers?



Well, I don't particularly care how they start. Both of them have/had problems they need to resolve starting out. I think Durant has a greater likelyhood of resolving his than McGrady did. 87% FT% is remarkable for a 19 year old, any 19 year old, never mind one who is 6'9". I think his FT% is very much evidence his FG% and 3-FG%'s will improve.

#71 Sam Ray Not

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 05:07 PM

Well, I don't particularly care how they start. Both of them have/had problems they need to resolve starting out. I think Durant has a greater likelyhood of resolving his than McGrady did. 87% FT% is remarkable for a 19 year old, any 19 year old, never mind one who is 6'9". I think his FT% is very much evidence his FG% and 3-FG%'s will improve.

Some lights-out FT shooters and their career numbers:

Ray Allen .446 FG / .890 FT
Peja Stojakovic .457 / .894
Rick Barry .449 / .900
Mark Price .472 / .904
Danny Ainge .469 / .846

Durant's at .450 / .827 this season. I wouldn't at all be surprised to see him raise his FG% a bit as he matures (especially if someone beats it into his head that it's a total waste for an athletic 6'9" guy to live on the perimeter) but I don't really see how his being a good FT% is "evidence" of it.

More importantly, I think most people agree that Durant's efficiency from the floor is the least of his concerns at this point. Show me some "evidence" that he's going to stop being a laggard on the glass, on D, and handling the ball and I may begin to share your faith.

#72 PJ Martinez

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 06:15 PM

Speaking of young players developing as shooters, John Hollinger writes about Marvin Williams today, who is 13-23 from three this year after attempting only 10 all of last season (and shooting just 25% in his first two years). He's a good FT shooter, too (80% career)... interesting to see if he makes real improvement there.

#73 shane88888

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 05:51 PM

What the hell is Mike Dunleavy doing? I know, I know, it's the Clippers. But this move is strange even by their standards.

I'm assuming they're going to unload either Camby or Kaman, but why Zack Randolph? Dunleavy has a history of feuding with players and he thinks adding Z-Bo to the mix is going to turn things around? I understand wanting to unload Tim Thomas and Mobley, but taking on Randolph and his contract isn't going to end well.

#74 DannyDarwinism

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 05:59 PM

I understand wanting to unload Tim Thomas and Mobley, but taking on Randolph and his contract isn't going to end well.


I don't get it. Thomas and Mobley may suck, but they're expiring contracts so they have value as trade bait that would only increase as the season went on. I've heard Randolph called a poor-man's Elton Brand... maybe Sterling missed his binkie.

#75 keving18

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Posted 22 November 2008 - 08:58 AM

What the hell is Mike Dunleavy doing? I know, I know, it's the Clippers. But this move is strange even by their standards.

I'm assuming they're going to unload either Camby or Kaman, but why Zack Randolph? Dunleavy has a history of feuding with players and he thinks adding Z-Bo to the mix is going to turn things around? I understand wanting to unload Tim Thomas and Mobley, but taking on Randolph and his contract isn't going to end well.


I've long ago given up trying to understand what the Clippers development plan is. Every year, it seems, they have a different one.

To save my sanity, I just pretend they don't exist.

#76 Lose Remerswaal


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Posted 22 November 2008 - 11:18 AM

PJ fired

That OKC thing is turning out pretty darn good, eh?

#77 PedroWillSaveUs

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Posted 22 November 2008 - 11:57 AM

Yeah, that's pretty fucked. Another case of Byron Scott holding back a great team (at least, according to what Jason Kidd was heard screaming, behind closed doors)???


insofar as he has inexplicably buried Julian Wright this season, he hasn't been the perfect coach this year, but the real problem is that other than Posey, the bench is just awful, particularly in the frontcourt. When you are giving significant bench minutes to Hilton Armstrong and Melvin Ely, you're going to bleed points when the starters are resting. meanwhile, both Chandler and West have injury histories, so there is significant risk to this team going forward, because they have NOTHING off the pine (save for going small with Posey or Wright at the 4). meanwhile, making Devin Brown the backup point guard isn't ideal, but it's a huge improvement over Mike James, who was probably the worst backup point guard in the league over the first two weeks of the season.

The other problem is that while Paul has been as great as ever, Chandler and Peja have thus far been less productive than last year. Both have had nagging injuries, so one can hope for improvement there. West is still doing his thing on offense but has been much weaker on the glass.

The troubling thing is that Rasual Butler, a wretched player, has been on the hot streak of his life and giving a productive 20 minutes a night. In all likelihood, this will not last--but Scott seems to have a soft spot for him...he may be locked into the rotation for some time. So the bench actually has the potential to get worse.

All of that said, they're better than their record indicates and very capable of a run. I'd expect them to end up in the top 4 the west, though they clearly cannot hang with the Lakers at this point.

One other note on Scott: if the rumors down here are true that Brandon Bass was buried and run out of town because of being in Scott's doghouse, I think that's pretty damning, as Bass would have been a very useful bench asset to this team both last year and this year. I mean, I love Melvin Ely's blown-out afro, and I like how they play Three Dog Night's "Ely's Coming" when he enters the game (and one is forced to imagine him singing that when he's in bed with groupies, etc.)--there are lots of things I like about Melvin Ely...but he should not be on the court for a contending team. And of course there's nothing at all I like about Hilton Armstrong.

#78 shane88888

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 06:07 PM

LeBron is taking some heat for his comments about free agency. Amare apparently also needs some attention:

*STEPHEN A. SMITH WARNING*
http://sports.espn.g...oudemire-081128
*END STEPHEN A. SMITH WARNING*

I wouldn't want any parts of Amare. While he's an offensive force, his team defense sucks, his usual effort is worse, and the above link indicates he's another player who would rather be the man than a winner.

#79 Al Zarilla


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Posted 29 November 2008 - 12:56 AM

Mike Breen, the bang guy, is still doing verbal orgasms over Kobe (tonight's Lakers - Mavs game). I see that he was promoted to lead announcer for ESPN. He will keep ESPN off my screen when he's announcing unless it's a Celtics game. Worst NBA announcer ever, IMO. Lakers won a pretty close game.

#80 dolomite133


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Posted 29 November 2008 - 01:08 AM

Am I the only one who completely agrees with Chuck, when he criticizes Lebron for commenting on his 2010 free agency?

#81 3rd Degree

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 01:27 AM

Am I the only one who completely agrees with Chuck, when he criticizes Lebron for commenting on his 2010 free agency?

I absolutely agree with Sir Charles here. How the hell is all of this LeBron-to-New York speculation supposed to make Cavaliers fans feel? If LeBron has tried to squash the rumors, he's done a very poor job of it. The Cavs being a competitive team right now has got to be the only thing keeping Cleveland basketball fans from enraged protest and disenfrachisement. This kind of rumor mongering is horrible for basketball.

EDIT: This NY Post article has some excerpts from LeBron's interview before playing the Knicks:

When asked directly if he wanted to join the Knicks one day, James demurred, not wanting to insult his Cleveland employer. "It would be unfair to bring that kind of distraction to our team," James said. "I am flattered that teams want me to be a part of their team but right now I'm with the Cavs.

"The fans are really good," James said of the Garden faithful. "Every time I come here it's a warm feeling. Being a basketball junkie like myself, how could you not like it and not say I'd like to be here?"

James then quickly added, "I'm saying as a Cleveland Cavalier, not permanently."

If I was a Cavs fan, I'd be absolutely pissed. It just feels like a bunch of "haha wink wink" bullshit. I couldn't agree more with Chuck: Shut the hell up, LeBron.

Edited by 3rd Degree, 29 November 2008 - 01:42 AM.


#82 BOS2002

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 02:30 AM

I completely agree with Barkley, Lebron James is completely giving in to the media and focusing on his free agency which is in TWO YEARS. A ''smart'' athlete would just ignore those comments and be like ''All my focus is on this year, Im focused on winning a championship with Cleveland.'' And just leave it at that. No ''July 1st, 2010 Will be a big day in Basketball Free Agency history'' and blah blah blah.

That shows to his fans, coaches, and teammates that he is not completely focused on this year and is too interested in looking ahead to when he LEAVES Cleveland in 2010. Im a C's fan, but I hate Lebron and Knicks/Nets openly flirting in front of everybody. But then again, its hard to argue when Cleveland has the 3rd best record in the NBA.

Edited by BOS2002, 29 November 2008 - 02:31 AM.


#83 Al Zarilla


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Posted 29 November 2008 - 05:23 AM

I completely agree with Barkley, Lebron James is completely giving in to the media and focusing on his free agency which is in TWO YEARS. A ''smart'' athlete would just ignore those comments and be like ''All my focus is on this year, Im focused on winning a championship with Cleveland.'' And just leave it at that. No ''July 1st, 2010 Will be a big day in Basketball Free Agency history'' and blah blah blah.

That shows to his fans, coaches, and teammates that he is not completely focused on this year and is too interested in looking ahead to when he LEAVES Cleveland in 2010. Im a C's fan, but I hate Lebron and Knicks/Nets openly flirting in front of everybody. But then again, its hard to argue when Cleveland has the 3rd best record in the NBA.

Agree with Charles for the reasons stated. ESPN had that Lebron's retort was that Charles is stupid. Charles is being Charles and is doing what they pay him for. Of course, Lebron has already pulled crap like show up at the Jake for an '07 Indians - Yankees LDS game wearing a Yankees hat, and hanging out on the Cowboys sideline and hugging TO and Pacman before the Browns - Cowboys game this year. Seems like he has a need to insult all the Cleveland teams.

#84 dolomite133


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Posted 29 November 2008 - 10:35 AM

My most fervent hope is that LeBron *does* go to the Knicks/Nets, that the Cavs in turn win the title the following year, and LeBron begins the downside of his career, his enormous contract serving as the albatross that will keep the Knicks/Nets from winning the title for another decade.

#85 PJ Martinez

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 12:20 PM

My most fervent hope is that LeBron *does* go to the Knicks/Nets, that the Cavs in turn win the title the following year, and LeBron begins the downside of his career, his enormous contract serving as the albatross that will keep the Knicks/Nets from winning the title for another decade.


Yes, LeBron will no doubt begin to decline at the ancient age of 26. (If I'm not mistaken, Michael Jordan won his first title at 27.)

I just noticed that LeBron's slight downtick in counting stats is accompanied by a decrease in 5 minutes of playing time per game. LeBron appears to be playing the best basketball of his career. Yikes.

#86 Al Zarilla


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Posted 02 December 2008 - 01:41 AM

Thrilla in Manila, actually, Oakland tonight. Miami 130 Golden State 129 in OT. No Baron Davis and no Monta Ellis but Nellie still sends a really competitive team out there. Jamal Crawford, whom they got from the Knicks, had 40. Nice to see a superstar in Dwayne Wade that doesn't bitch and moan every time he doesn't get a call in his favor. 37 for Wade.

#87 Euclis20

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Posted 02 December 2008 - 03:32 AM

Thrilla in Manila, actually, Oakland tonight. Miami 130 Golden State 129 in OT. No Baron Davis and no Monta Ellis but Nellie still sends a really competitive team out there. Jamal Crawford, whom they got from the Knicks, had 40. Nice to see a superstar in Dwayne Wade that doesn't bitch and moan every time he doesn't get a call in his favor. 37 for Wade.


They've lost 7 in a row, by an average of 11 points, including a 24 point blowout loss at the hands of the (2-12) Wizards. Only 2 of those 7 losses came at the hands of winning teams (Boston and Cleveland). They've allowed 118 ppg.

Scoring a lot of points doesn't make them competitive, it makes them entertaining. I can't tell if the Wade comment is sarcasm or not...he has no need to bitch and moan because no player in the league gets more calls than he does (be it a bailout call on a drive to the hoop or a no-call on an obvious travel).

#88 Al Zarilla


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Posted 02 December 2008 - 10:47 AM

They've lost 7 in a row, by an average of 11 points, including a 24 point blowout loss at the hands of the (2-12) Wizards. Only 2 of those 7 losses came at the hands of winning teams (Boston and Cleveland). They've allowed 118 ppg.

Scoring a lot of points doesn't make them competitive, it makes them entertaining. I can't tell if the Wade comment is sarcasm or not...he has no need to bitch and moan because no player in the league gets more calls than he does (be it a bailout call on a drive to the hoop or a no-call on an obvious travel).

True. Maybe my comment re competitive Warriors was largely because in the two most recent games I watched them, they gave the Celtics all they wanted, in Boston (13 point halftime Warrior lead), and last night's game against a recovering Heat team was a classic shootout the Warriors should have won.

No sarcasm about Wade. He looks to go about his business, and maybe he does get some superstar calls, but he could have complained sometimes last night like Kobe or Lebron always do on calls that could have gone either way, but he didn't.

#89 Snakebauer007


  • Berezovsky


  • 2,189 posts

Posted 02 December 2008 - 06:40 PM

So this seems like a semi-appropriate thread for this. In a LeBron Kobe debate. Really don't care who is considered better now overall, or if LeBron will ever be considered better(I think so), I'm just blown away with the arguments being presented to me that Kobe is as good a passer and the rebounding diffrence is only attributed to size diffrence.

Maybe I'm crazy, just would like to read some other points of view on the breakdowns of their talents, diffrences/similarities...

#90 PJ Martinez

  • 831 posts

Posted 02 December 2008 - 08:39 PM

Well, "size difference" explains a lot in the NBA, and you don't get extra points for being smaller. So the rebounding edge counts in Lebron's favor.

Over their careers, on a per-minute basis, LeBron shoots slightly less often, but makes his shots slightly more often; he rebounds more and collects more assists; he also, interestingly, commits fewer fouls. They've gotten the same number of steals and blocks per minute and committed turnovers at identical rates; they also attempt the same number of free throws, but Kobe makes more of his. They've taken about the same number of three pointers per minute, but Kobe hits his at a better percentage.

Bottom line, I think, is that Kobe is a better outside shooter than James, which shows up in his 3P% and his FT%. James is his equal or better at everything else that can be easily measured. While Kobe is obviously a great player and a certain Hall of Famer, James has the potential to battle Jordan and Russell for the title of best ever. Kobe, in my opinion, has never really merited being in that discussion.

#91 NYCSox


  • chris hansen of goats


  • 6,342 posts

Posted 02 December 2008 - 10:19 PM

From the not too early to think about this department - the Pacers beat the Fakers at the buzzer thereby giving them their second loss of the season.

#92 kenneycb


  • Hates Goose Island Beer; Loves Backdoor Play


  • 7,248 posts

Posted 08 December 2008 - 12:04 PM

Kevin McHale to become new head coach of Minnesota.

Edit: See PJ Martinez's post for link.

Edited by kenneycb, 08 December 2008 - 03:25 PM.


#93 Al Zarilla


  • SoSH Member


  • 21,406 posts

Posted 08 December 2008 - 01:02 PM

Kevin McHale to become new head coach of Minnesota.

When you get back, can you correct the link? Really needed to see a picture of Jeter and the fisting pump on a Monday morning. :) :lol:

#94 PJ Martinez

  • 831 posts

Posted 08 December 2008 - 01:48 PM

Well, here's a link: McHale is not only the coach now, he's no longer in the front office. So they've made at least one good decision. I've no idea what kind of coach McHale will be, though. Here's wishing him and Big Al the best.

#95 NYCSox


  • chris hansen of goats


  • 6,342 posts

Posted 09 December 2008 - 10:49 AM

Check out the NBA standings. We're barely at the first quarter mark and there are only 9 Western Conference teams in the running to make the playoffs.

http://sports.espn.g...m/nba/standings

#96 dbn

  • 3,279 posts

Posted 10 December 2008 - 04:59 PM

Check out the NBA standings. We're barely at the first quarter mark and there are only 9 Western Conference teams in the running to make the playoffs.

http://sports.espn.g...m/nba/standings

Wow. Even more dramatic is Hollinger's playoff odds!

#97 dolomite133


  • everything I write, think and feel is stupid


  • 5,920 posts

Posted 11 December 2008 - 02:39 PM

Cuttino Mobley just announced his retirement due to hypertrophic cardiomyopathy, the same heart disease which felled Reggie Lewis and Hank Gathers. I guess this didn't show up in the Knicks physicial prior to the trade? Or, even stranger, maybe it did and they were betting on the insurance relief?

#98 shane88888

  • 259 posts

Posted 11 December 2008 - 02:56 PM

Cuttino Mobley just announced his retirement due to hypertrophic cardiomyopathy, the same heart disease which felled Reggie Lewis and Hank Gathers. I guess this didn't show up in the Knicks physicial prior to the trade? Or, even stranger, maybe it did and they were betting on the insurance relief?


From TrueHoop:

Don't expect the Knicks to get salary cap relief when Cuttino Mobley announces his retirement. From Larry Coon's salary cap FAQ: "Teams are not allowed to trade for disabled players and then apply for this salary cap relief. Only the team for which the player was playing when he was disabled may request this relief. If a player retires, even for medical reasons, his team does not receive a salary cap exception to acquire a replacement player."



#99 ishmael

  • 409 posts

Posted 12 December 2008 - 09:01 AM

From TrueHoop:


Fine, but the Knicks don't want to sign another player anyways (at least not anyone that goes past summer 2010). They won't get salary cap relief (or luxury tax relief), but insurance probably will cover the majority of Cutino's $13+ million still due over the next year and a half. Even for the Dolan's, saving $13 million is still something...

#100 3rd Degree

  • 2,179 posts

Posted 13 December 2008 - 11:18 PM

The Hawks ended the Cavs' 11 game winning streak with a 97-92 win in Atlanta.
Posted Image

Edited by 3rd Degree, 13 December 2008 - 11:30 PM.