43 replies to this topic

[Judge Mental13]

Odd quotes released by the Dodgers, whom I have to assume are just gauging the market and hoping someone throws them a package that's entirely to much to give up for Martin.

If they were seriously looking to trade him I don't quite get the point of the "Just another catcher" comments and why they would want any prospective suitor in a trade scenario to think that about him, or to think that THEY think that about him. I really doubt he's going anywhere, although I would be interested in knowing what LA might consider a reasonable haul from Boston for his services. They certainly wouldn't want any more outfielders, so Ellsbury and Bay are likely not needed. I'd imagine Lowrie's name has come up, as he is a talented young infielder, and I can only assume just about all of our pitching prospects would at least be named, if not invoked during a negotiation with LA for Martin.

I'd love to have Martin, I think he is a special player and I really enjoy watching him. I would part with Lowrie and just about any two of our young pitchers/pitching prospects not named Masterson to get him. I think the sooner something gets done the better, because the Varitek saga is one that could really polarize the fanbases and turn into some big national hoopla if Tek is not offered a contract. The best course of action is replace him first and then let him walk. Cut everyone off at the "It's just business" talking point, we got a younger, better, catcher, and while we appreciate what Tek's done for us re-signing him now wouldn't make any sense since we now have a new starting catcher. That would really be a lot easier to deal with than a whole winter of will they or won't they.

[Harry Hooper]

Is the subtext of Heyman's piece that Martin, Kemp, and Ethier were enjoying L.A.'s party scene too much before Manny showed up, and they realized they could make a postseason run?

[koufax32]

I would absolutely love to have a player like Martin become a part of the Sox. He's a young player who probably will give you a .285, .375, .800 line for a good 6-8 years. At his age he improve on that as well. Martin stats
I seem to remember a TV discussion (all-star game?) in which there was talk that Martin's pitch calling rivalled that of Jason Varitek. Does anyone else remember what I'm talkng about?
Unfotrtunately I'm not sure there's much to get excited about here. I jsut can't see an organization like LA give him up for anything less than a king's ransom. It's not their MO to go into "what the heck let's go for it" mode. The only way that could change is if Mike Lowell was somehow involved in the discussion on top of a high level prospect.

[maufman]

Odd quotes released by the Dodgers, whom I have to assume are just gauging the market and hoping someone throws them a package that's entirely to much to give up for Martin.

I lost the links, but a couple Dodger bloggers think this story is more indicative of in-fighting in the Dodgers' organization than it is of the FO's opinion of Russell Martin. Apparently, it's an open secret in L.A. that Tommy Lasorda is unhappy with his role in the organization. Maybe Southland SoSHers can shed some light on whether this might explain the Post and SI leaks.

Edited by maufman, 25 October 2008 - 01:45 PM.

[grantb]

I didn't realize .280 13 HR 69 RBI 87 R and 18 SB in 155 (138 starts at C) games qualifies Martin as "just another catcher."
If the Red Sox can acquire him, I think they need to do so as soon as possible.
Only time will tell if the Dodgers are serious about trading him.

Obviously, the 2008 2nd Half numbers, as expected, are more pronounced. This is just the case of a guy getting tired, IMO.

Not that you're wrong, but it could just be part of his development. Like Youkilis, he may happen to 'grow out of' his decreased second half production. Of course catcher is a completely different bag of balls the first base, and fatigue could certainly be a part of it.

Edited by grantb, 25 October 2008 - 01:49 PM.

[Papelbon's Poutine]

Unfotrtunately I'm not sure there's much to get excited about here. I jsut can't see an organization like LA give him up for anything less than a king's ransom. It's not their MO to go into "what the heck let's go for it" mode. The only way that could change is if Mike Lowell was somehow involved in the discussion on top of a high level prospect.

Mike Lowell has just about as little trade value as you could imagine right now. Even heavily subsidized, you can't expect to get much back for a 35 year old 3B with a serious hip injury. No one knows if he will bounce back fully from it or not or even be ready for opening day next year.

The discussion needs to begin with the Sox assuming Andruw Jones and his dead weight contract. The Dodgers have been crying poor mouth all season and freeing up some serious cash would go a long way for them, especially when htey have some big holes to fill from FAs (Blake, Manny, Furcal, Lowe, etc.). They would probably be smarter to move Pierre, but Torre seems to like him and if they lose Manny, they'll need Pierre to start in CF and be less of a black hole than Jones would likely be.

Buchholz + low level guy for Martin/Jones would possibly get them on the phone.

Edited by Papelbon's Poutine, 25 October 2008 - 02:21 PM.

[ookami7m]

To answer the thread title questions: Yes I think the Sox would want Martin, and if the reports are true he's 'available'.

I get to listen to a decent number of Dodgers games on the radio on my way home from work, and I see them play the D'backs a dozen+ times per year. I don't have the statistical acumen, but most of that is covered above. I can relate what I see though - and that is a solid defensive catcher (nothing spectacular but slightly better than average) who hits line drives all over the place when his swing is working. When its not he hits a lot of weak pop ups and flares. He's always seemed to be a bit streaky over the series I've seen him play. He throws well from behind the plate and actually has good baserunning skills.

I think the only way the Sox end up with him without parting with the whole farm system is taking back either Andruw or Juan Pierre's deals. I'd be more willing to take back Andruw as there is at least a chance his skills come back - Pierre never had any past speed.

[jtn46]

I think the only way the Sox end up with him without parting with the whole farm system is taking back either Andruw or Juan Pierre's deals. I'd be more willing to take back Andruw as there is at least a chance his skills come back - Pierre never had any past speed.

I think you take Jones back without any real intention of him ever playing for the Red Sox. If he wants to accept an assignment to Pawtucket making $15 million, fine, if not, he can try to find a bench job with a major league team on the Red Sox dime. In no way should he be given a spot on the 25-man roster. I think it's a good plan, though, and I imagine the Dodgers would be a favorite to land Varitek if the Red Sox acquired Martin.

[Bob Montgomery's Helmet Hat]

I'd love to have Russell Martin as our next catcher.

Jones has a horrible contract, and getting rid of it would have a lot of value to the Dodgers. I would think the Red Sox are one of only a few teams looking for a catcher who would possibly eat the Jones contract as a means to getting Martin. It really makes no sense to me that the Dodgers truly would want to move Martin. If, however, they are so inclined, and they could get rid of a huge albatross contract as well as getting someone like Buchholz in return, it would seem as if the Red Sox are a very good potential trade partner.

[SoxFanInCali]

The Dodgers are a big market club that makes money. While I'm sure they would love to dump the Pierre/Jones contracts, I don't think they are going to give up Major League talent for just prospects and being able to dump a contract. That fan base thrives on marquee names, and if they were to trade Martin (which I still don't believe they will do) I would think they would be looking for Major League talent back. They need a 3rd baseman, so I could see them asking for Youk.

If the Dodgers break the bank and sign Manny to a big deal, they may be more willing to give something up to dump a contract, but until then, I don't see it.

[mabrowndog]

Wow. Someone "connected with the Dodgers" actually believes that Martin was "just another catcher?" Man, I just love it when morons get jobs in MLB front offices.

PROS

* There's a lot to love about this kid. Inside Edge rates his plate discipline, 2-strike tendency and clutch tendency with straight "A"s. In contrast, the grades for our resident gritty Captain would get him expelled.

* In an extreme pitcher's park he's put up a .281/.376/.426/.803 line, and each of his three seasons at Dodger Stadium have been pretty consistent. His power fell off a bit this year but nothing so dramatic as to elicit the comments of the buffoon quoted above -- .280/.385/.396/.781.

* His numbers would be much better if Torre hadn't tried to get cute with his batting slot. Martin was used in every place in the order this year, including an inexplicable 93 PA in 20 games as the leadoff hitter. He went 2-for-17 as LA's game-opening batter and had an overall .219/.376/.301/.678 line in the #1 spot. Otherwise his line was .290/386/.410/.796.

* Another example of his misuse is that he's caught 294 games the past two seasons -- 281 as a starter. Predictably, he's worn down in the second half with a .268/.373/.388/.761 line after putting up an aggregate first half of .300/.384/.463/.847. Hell, even the Global Grand Marshall of Leaving Players In Too Long agrees completely with this:

Former Los Angeles Dodgers manager Grady Little used to fret about relying so much on catcher Russell Martin, knowing the rigors of the position were bound to wear down his young star.

Sure enough, Martin's batting average declined 31 points from the first half of 2007 to the second, and his power numbers also went down as he caught 145 games.

* From that same article, Martin clearly understands that it's not always about making bone-crushing contact with the ball:

Once Manny Ramirez arrived in a July 31 trade, Martin's role became less run producer and more table-setter. And while he's not a big believer in one hitter's presence helping others get better pitches to hit, Martin realizes how the task changes depending on the spot in the batting order.

"Hitting in front of him (Ramirez), my job is just to get on base," Martin said. "My main goal there is to create opportunities. I kind of force myself to take some pitches, because I'm not afraid to hit with two strikes."

* A converted third baseman, Martin played 11 games there last year. Of course, he also made 3 errors so he needs some work. Still, that flexibility is a nice plus.

* One of the few head-scratchers with his offense was the reversal this year of his L/R splits. Prior to this season, his career lines were .270/.342/.423/.765 vs RHP and .360/.455/.573/1.029 vs LHP. His 2008 numbers: .291/.392/.393/.786 vs RHP, .253/.365/.403/.767 vs LHP.

Well, his improvement vs righties doesn't seem to be a fluke produced by hitting a few guys especially well. Of the 161 RHPs he faced, 46 of them were one-shot deals. Against them he went 14-for-34 with 11 walks. In fact, his worst struggles came against 6 righties: Matt Cain, Dan Haren, Aaron Cook, Kevin Correia, Bronson Arroyo and Cha Seung Baek. Against these guys he was 5-for-49 with a double and 8 walks. Versus the other 155 RHPs, his line was .317/.415/.431/.846 in 412 PA. That's a fantastic indicator of his progress.

FWIW, here are all the NL RHH who had a higher OPS than .846 with at least 150 PA vs RHP:

RHH		PA	   OPS
Manny	  160	1.316
Pujols	 446	1.063
Ludwick	409	 .985
Hanley	 531	 .983
Holliday   476	 .963
Uggla	  464	 .955
Aramis	 492	 .954
Bay		354	 .953
C. Lee	 366	 .930
Nady	   277	 .907
Braun	  478	 .894
Dukes	  237	 .892
Glaus	  456	 .891
Tatis	  182	 .890
Iannetta   308	 .878
Spilborghs 176	 .854
Soto	   451	 .852

That's some pretty good company. Yes, this is shameless cherry-picking to a degree, but the comparison has some value because Manny was the only one to play in as crappy a hitter's park. The two catchers on the list, Soto and Iannetta, played in relative bandboxes.

CONS

* Since I'm not the Iraqi Information Minister, there's definitely a downside to Martin's plate approach. He crushes fastballs, but has been woefully inept against breaking stuff. As I noted above, he hit righties much better this season. Unfortunately there's a clip side to that.

So what happened against LPHs? My guess is that it comes full-circle to his problems with breaking balls. He faced 55 lefties this year. He teed off on Jeff Francis, Wade LeBlanc, Doug Davis, Paul Maholm, Joe Saunders, Jonathan Sanchez, Scott Olsen and Wandy Rodriguez. Against these 8 southpaws he went 22-for-48 with a dozen walks and 3 homers for a .458/.567/.792/1.359 line. Versus the other 46 LHPs he was 17-for-106 with 14 walks and 2 HR -- a line of .160/.258/.255/.513. So based on this assessment from Inside Edge, I'm assuming the word spread that sweeping curves and low sliders are his Achilles heel:



* According to the Philadelphia Inquirer, Phils scouts were able to exploit Martin's tendencies in the NLCS:

In the first inning of that game, the Dodgers' Manny Ramirez drew a two-out walk. The next batter, Russell Martin, worked a 2-2 count against Cole Hamels. The Phillies' scouting report on Martin, a righthanded hitter, said that he became very aggressive with two strikes and often tried to hook the ball to the left. Aware of the report, Phillies coaches moved third baseman Pedro Feliz a half-step toward the line. Martin pounded a ground ball to third, and Feliz threw to second to force out Ramirez.

* There are apparently concerns over his work behind the plate:

John (Boston): Buster - maybe it's my east coast ignorance here, but why would the Dodgers consider moving Martin? I've only read great things about him, and his numbers last year were very good. He's gotta still be at least a top 5 catcher in mlb - was it a lack of consistency this year? Please enlighten me...thanks.

Buster Olney: John: There are those within that organization that would like to see him make a greater commitment to his defense. I'll leave it at that.

* After Chad Billingsley's NLCS loss, the pitcher seemed to call out Martin's game plan:

But after the game, Billingsley was awkward when answering questions and unable to provide any details other than saying that catcher Russell Martin calls the games behind the plate and that "pitch selection" was most likely the culprit.

"I felt good; I felt I had good stuff," said Billingsley, who added that a lot of the hits went the other way or found holes. "I didn't do well [Friday]and I didn't get the job done and I think pitch selection was kind of what the problem was."

He also said that when he's not feeling comfortable with what Martin's calling behind the plate, he'll shake him off. When Martin was asked whether Billingsley was shaking him off, he said, "Not necessarily. Not that I noticed. Not more than usual."

It was an awkward moment because the next question for Martin was about what Billingsley had said.

"When you're not throwing the ball like you want to, it's easy to second-guess yourself," Martin said in a very mature, politically correct response. "If it works, it works; if it doesn't, it doesn't. We're going to have to make adjustments."

* According to SI.com's Tom Verducci, Martin let his frustrations get the better of him:

Dodgers catcher Russ Martin is 25 and also may have a bright future, but he showed in the NLCS that he has some maturing to do as a big league ballplayer. Martin was overly emotional throughout the series -- an especially bad trait for a catcher -- and made no adjustments at the plate, continuing to chase pitches with an anxious pull mentality. Martin was not equipped for the important job of hitting fourth behind Manny Ramirez. Batting behind Ramirez in four games, Martin hit with 18 runners on, including Ramirez 12 times. He went 0 for 10 and drove in only one of those 18 runners, that with a groundball out. The more cool-headed James Loney would have been the much better choice by manager Joe Torre to hit behind Ramirez.

* I'm betting his road performance this year added to the alarm voiced by the Dodgers' informant. Not that it was horrible, mind you, but after a .329/.394/.538/.932 line in 2007, his .284/.383/.404/.786 this season doesn't look quite so hot. Bear in mind that while Martin had to play in a couple of other pitchers' parks occupied by NL West foes (SD and SF), those were pretty much neutralized by the offensive stimulus gained in ARI and COL.

* For those thinking that Fenway would be a boon for his numbers, turning would-be fly-outs at Dodger Stadium into smashes off the Monster, not so fast. According to his MLB.com hit chart, in three seasons he's only hit 10 fly ball outs to left or left-center deeper than 300 feet at Chavez Ravine.

So do we want him? Well, just imagine what playing in a better run-scoring environment, in a deeper lineup, will do for him. And if he can tame his breaking ball weaknesses, we might be looking at Mike Piazza redux.

I can understand the concerns over his defensive commitment, game-calling, maturity, and bad habits. But he's only 25, and I believe the Sox' clubhouse and leadership could help turn some of those perceived shortcomings around.

I agree the Dodgers would prefer MLB-ready talent, since they stand to lose up to 12 players to free agency this winter. But I really believe that if the Sox take on Jones' contract, they won't have to up the ante substantially to land Martin. If the Sox include Youkilis, that's a sure sign Teixeira will be wearing a Boston uniform in Fort Myers four months from now.

But here's where it gets interesting: if the Sox included Youks and some combination of Buchholz, Argenis Diaz and cash, would the Dodgers take Lugo to play short for the next couple of years?

Of all the Hot Stove scenarios, I find this one the most interesting.

Edited by mabrowndog, 25 October 2008 - 06:41 PM.

[OCD SS]

I agree the Dodgers would prefer MLB-ready talent, since they stand to lose up to 12 players to free agency this winter. But I really believe that if the Sox take on Jones' contract, they won't have to up the ante substantially to land Martin. If the Sox include Youkilis, that's a sure sign Teixeira will be wearing a Boston uniform in Fort Myers four months from now.

But here's where it gets interesting: if the Sox included Youks and some combination of I am an Idiot, Argenis Diaz and cash, would the Dodgers take Lugo to play short for the next couple of years?

Of all the Hot Stove scenarios, I find this one the most interesting.

Assuming that the Dodgers are actually willing to deal him, wiith catching so thin across the league, I think one of the questions we should be asking is who else would be trying to put together an offer.

As to dealing Youks, I have a very hard time seeing the Sox deal him without having Teixeira already signed, which would mean that a Martin trade would take a very long time to complete. This would have a ripple effect for the Sox plans through the offseason, as they could complicate their dealing with Tek (almost forcing them to bring him back, unless they see a Brown/ Kottaras platoon as a fallback option). In contrast, a deal with Texas could get done much quicker. Given that Salty (who the Sox reportedly prefer) would probably cost less than Martin, and would solve the "catching problem" very quickly, who would you prefer?

[mabrowndog]

Any chance the Dodgers are interested in signing Varitek? McCourt loves him some former Red Sox, and perhaps they feel he could do a solid job nurturing their young pitchers (Kershaw, Billingsley, et al). Might make some sense, considering they seem to be upset with Martin over his defense/handling of pitchers.

I addessed this a few weeks back. if Tek leaves, I think LA is the most likely landing spot.

[maufman]

Given that Salty (who the Sox reportedly prefer) would probably cost less than Martin, and would solve the "catching problem" very quickly, who would you prefer?

Depends how you define "cost." If we absorb the last year of Andruw Jones's contract in the deal, it's not clear we'd have to part with more talent to land Martin than Saltalamacchia. Yes, absorbing Andruw's contract ($18mm, iirc) involves an opportunity cost, but (a) there aren't a lot of attractive options for deploying that money without making long-term commitments, and (b) I'm not intrigued by any of the top-flight FAs this winter, unless the economy brings their demands down much more sharply than I think it will.

If all other things are equal (which they may not be), I'd gladly pay $18mm to get Martin instead of Salty. The cost to the FO (i.e., in dollars) would be largely offset by Tek and G38 coming off the books, and the opportunity cost, imo, is much less than a lot of people think.

* There are apparently concerns over his work behind the plate:

Olney's reference to "those within that organization" makes me think the bloggers I mentioned upthread are onto something, and that Martin isn't really available. That doesn't mean I'm not intrigued.

Edited by maufman, 25 October 2008 - 07:04 PM.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I addessed this a few weeks back. if Tek leaves, I think LA is the most likely landing spot.

Gammo has also been pimping a Tek to LA move for a while now. If the Dodgers want to trade catchers with the Sox, I'd be all for it.

[OCD SS]

Gammo has also been pimping a Tek to LA move for a while now. If the Dodgers want to trade catchers with the Sox, I'd be all for it.

Maybe the Dodgers will throw Chris Withrow into the deal.

[SoxFanSince57]

Great thread. Damn, mabrowndog, that was one hell of a solid post. Thanks.

Like most I would love to have Martin for possibly the next ten years. Thanks for the posts about Martin's maturity--they were helpful in gaining insight into what is behind the recent "talk" about Martin. Based on what I've read thus far, I believe that there is nothing to suggest that his issues should cause the FO to scuttle any deal. I think he will mature and the players, coaches and stat people in Boston will provide the support Martin needs to grow professionally. No red lights for me on making a trade.

I like Martin more than other alternatives, because he has a proven track record and is still really young. I would be willing to offer Lowell and Buchholz for Martin and Pierre/Jones. I only suggest Pierre, because I don't know how much money it will take to close the deal. We all know that the Dodgers need money. I believe that the LAD would like Lowell at 3B for 2 years because of his power and veteran leadership. I see DeWitt as a 2B and not a 3B and I have heard that they have little intention of re-signing Blake to play third. The LAD will clearly demand a MLB-ready or near-ready pitcher for Martin.

Like others, I suspect that the Dodgers would become very interested in Tek under this scenario. (I am sure that Lowell and Tek would love to be reunited with Manny!)

I believe that the Sox would have to trade Buchholz or Bowden for any of the young catchers Texas may be willing to part with. I think it is fair to assert that if the team is seeking a long-term solution behind the plate it will cost one of the team's best pitching prospects. So if the Sox have to part with one of their elite pitching prospects I would prefer that we get Martin in return.

If I were Ned Colletti I would not trade Russell Martin.

Edited by SoxFanSince57, 25 October 2008 - 09:54 PM.

[Bob Montgomery's Helmet Hat]

I like Martin more than other alternatives, because he has a proven track record and is still really young. I would be willing to offer Lowell and Buchholz for Martin and Pierre/Jones. I only suggest Pierre, because I don't know how much money it will take to close the deal. We all know that the Dodgers need money. I believe that the LAD would like Lowell at 3B for 2 years because of his power and veteran leadership. I see DeWitt as a 2B and not a 3B and I have heard that they have little intention of re-signing Blake to play third. The LAD will clearly demand a MLB-ready or near-ready pitcher for Martin.

Just out of curiosity, what happens if the Sox trade Lowell(which I still think is a long shot) and then don't land Teixeira(which I think is the probable outcome)?
Sign Furcal and move Lowrie to third?

Edited by Bob Montgomery's Helmet Hat, 25 October 2008 - 11:17 PM.

[SoxFanSince57]

Just out of curiosity, what happens if the Sox trade Lowell(which I still think is a long shot) and then don't land Teixeira(which I think is the probable outcome)?
Sign Furcal and move Lowrie to third?

I agree that getting Teixeira is a long shot. I also recognize that having Martin become available is a long shot.

However, I would be very aggressive in the pursuit of Teixeira--8X22M or more--and I would be willing to give value to get Martin.

If Lowell were traded the Sox could (gulp) go with Lugo at SS and Lowrie at 3B-- or they could trade for someone to play 1B and keep Youks at 3B--or they could get another body to play 1B, let Youks stay at 3B and have Lugo/Lowrie at SS with the other serving as a sub.

IMO, the Sox will not win the WS with its current roster, so I am committed to getting younger. I would work hard to find replacements for Lowell and Tek if I were GM.

Edited by SoxFanSince57, 04 November 2008 - 04:44 PM.

[paulftodd]

Gammons:
Source: http://sports.espn.g...e=gammons_peter

If you want to sign Tek, you pretty much have to say that don't you.

Me thinks they might want Tek around to help improve Martins defensive short comings. And we went to the ALCS with a catcher who hit 220. Why do we want to trade for, as in give up something of value, a catcher who appears to be a defensive liability and does not handle pitchers well, despite his better hitting in the NL which may or may not translate in the AL East. I would just as soon give Kottaras a shot if he is ok defensively, I know this was an issue with him 2 years ago. His 802 OPS was not too shabby for AAA. We do not need an All Star in every position.

[mt8thsw9th]

Me thinks they might want Tek around to help improve Martins defensive short comings. And we went to the ALCS with a catcher who hit 220. Why do we want to trade for, as in give up something of value, a catcher who appears to be a defensive liability and does not handle pitchers well, despite his better hitting in the NL which may or may not translate in the AL East.

Do you have any real evidence of this? Varitek has never struck me as more than a decent defensive catcher with a bad arm.

I can't find anything online damning Martin's ability to handle pitchers.

[Hairps]

While there have been rumors that Dodgers catcher Russell Martin might be available in a trade, G.M. Ned Colletti denied the notion that he was shopping the catcher on Tuesday. Other baseball executives said that they had not heard one way or another whether the Dodgers were offering the 25-year-old, who had a .380 OBP (10th in the National League) in 2008. "I think (the notion of trading Martin) is more perception than reality," said an executive. "If they do decide to trade him, there would be a long line of interested teams."

http://www.weei.com/

[Quintanariffic]

Why do we want to trade for, as in give up something of value, a catcher who appears to be a defensive liability and does not handle pitchers well, despite his better hitting in the NL which may or may not translate in the AL East. I would just as soon give Kottaras a shot if he is ok defensively, I know this was an issue with him 2 years ago. His 802 OPS was not too shabby for AAA. We do not need an All Star in every position.

First. by all accounts, Kottaras isn't OK defensively. He's below average.

Second, at what point will we dispense with this unsupported notion that good hitters in the NL won't perform as well in the AL? People said that about Jason Bay and it's generally taken as an article of faith by some, but I have yet to see any justification for the position. When you consider that Martin's played 81 games at pitcher friendly Dodger stadium, and another 18 at Petco and ATT, I"m not sure why any downward adjustment would be needed. I'm sure there are valid reasons why Martin may not be worth the price that would be asked, but this fantasy NL to AL hitting regression isn't one of them.

[grantb]

First. by all accounts, Kottaras isn't OK defensively. He's below average.

Second, at what point will we dispense with this unsupported notion that good hitters in the NL won't perform as well in the AL? People said that about Jason Bay and it's generally taken as an article of faith by some, but I have yet to see any justification for the position. When you consider that Martin's played 81 games at pitcher friendly Dodger stadium, and another 18 at Petco and ATT, I"m not sure why any downward adjustment would be needed. I'm sure there are valid reasons why Martin may not be worth the price that would be asked, but this fantasy NL to AL hitting regression isn't one of them.

I think it's more of just something to keep in mind; there are players that perform in the NL that don't perform in the AL, for whatever reason. It's certainly not the be-all and end-all, and I don't think anyone is insinuating that.

[Quintanariffic]

I think it's more of just something to keep in mind; there are players that perform in the NL that don't perform in the AL, for whatever reason. It's certainly not the be-all and end-all, and I don't think anyone is insinuating that.

Which good offensive performers in the NL have not performed in the AL?

[smastroyin]

Which good offensive performers in the NL have not performed in the AL?

Edgar Renteria.

I agree with your premise, but understand the entire argument is built around Edgar Renteria.

[Quintanariffic]

Edgar Renteria.

I agree with your premise, but understand the entire argument is built around Edgar Renteria.

Yikes. Talk about a house of cards. Surely it wasn't his 30lb. weight gain or his known nagging injuries or the likelihood that he wasn't cut out for baseball in Boston. It clearly was his switch from NL to AL.

[Jack Sox]

Yikes. Talk about a house of cards. Surely it wasn't his 30lb. weight gain or his known nagging injuries or the likelihood that he wasn't cut out for baseball in Boston. It clearly was his switch from NL to AL.

Um, he kind of sucked in Detroit this year two after a couple All-Star seasons in Atlanta. I forget where I read it but someone (maybe Gammons) alluded to the fact that Renteria just couldn't play in the AL.

[Hairps]

• When asked if Russell Martin were available, Dodgers GM Ned Colletti said "no."

http://sports.espn.g...;name=law_keith

[Quintanariffic]

Um, he kind of sucked in Detroit this year two after a couple All-Star seasons in Atlanta. I forget where I read it but someone (maybe Gammons) alluded to the fact that Renteria just couldn't play in the AL.

Whatever the case, we should be able to agree that this singular data point is not sufficient to make the case across the board that offensive production in the NL must somehow be discounted when coming to the AL. That's really what I'm getting at here.

[Philip Jeff Frye]

Second, at what point will we dispense with this unsupported notion that good hitters in the NL won't perform as well in the AL? People said that about Jason Bay and it's generally taken as an article of faith by some, but I have yet to see any justification for the position. When you consider that Martin's played 81 games at pitcher friendly Dodger stadium, and another 18 at Petco and ATT, I"m not sure why any downward adjustment would be needed. I'm sure there are valid reasons why Martin may not be worth the price that would be asked, but this fantasy NL to AL hitting regression isn't one of them.

You can add Mike Lowell to the list of recent Bosox players who don't seem to have been troubled by a move from the NL to the AL. Furthermore, Crisp and Lugo both came from AL teams and haven't produced anything like expectations - should we conclude from their examples that AL players can't move successfully to other AL teams?

[Foulkey Reese]

From Keith Law's insider chat yesterday.

Paolo (Tempe, AZ): What's your take on this rumors of the Dodgers being down on Russell Martin? Any hint of truth in them?

SportsNation Keith Law: Not enough to trade him. That's directly from Colletti. They don't have another catcher internally.

http://proxy.espn.go...?event_id=23438

[TheYaz67]

Here's an interesting rumbling making the rounds: The Dodgers were concerned enough about Russell Martin's regression behind the plate this year that they at least inquired about the asking price for Jason Varitek.

Had the price been more affordable than Boras' over-the-top quest to beat Jorge Posada's deal (four years, $52.4 million), the Dodgers might have pursued that idea further. But contrary to the speculation that is running through the GM meetings, they wouldn't have traded Martin if they'd signed another catcher. They would have moved him back to his original position, third base.

Source: Stark Nov. 20 Column

[SoxFanSince57]

Does anyone have meaningful data on what the problem is with Martin's catching? The Dodger pitching staff had a great year by most measures I have seen and I have not heard any former pitchers with the club throw Martin's catching skills under the bus.

[Harry Hooper]

they wouldn't have traded Martin if they'd signed another catcher. They would have moved him back to his original position, third base.

Well, there it is. If the Sox land Teixeira, Theo will be most persistent in trying to send Lowell and prospects to L.A. for Martin. Torre loves his vets, especially one with a Yankee pedigree. Lowell helps Dodger marketing efforts as well, which is something not to be sneezed at in current economic times.

[keving18]

So, the “Dodger-connected source,” assuming that this quote is reasonably accurate, is a complete idiot on so many fronts, that if he is a “high-up” in the organization, I feel sorry for the organization and its fans.

I'm happy to see another year has rolled around and MGL hasn't wavered one bit in his self-assurance that every person walking the earth is a complete idiot except himself.

[Don Buddin]

Well, there it is. If the Sox land Teixeira, Theo will be most persistent in trying to send Lowell and prospects to L.A. for Martin. Torre loves his vets, especially one with a Yankee pedigree. Lowell helps Dodger marketing efforts as well, which is something not to be sneezed at in current economic times.

If the Sox land Teixeira, Theo will be most persistent in sending Lowell anywhere.

I'm not sure where 'Torre loves his vets especially one with a Yankees pedigree' comes from. The Yankees being filled with veterans was more about them having all the money in the world to spend on them than it was about Torre's preferences

But I have to ask too. If the Dodgers have concluded that Martin's regression behind the plate makes him unsuitable as a catcher, do we really want him as our catcher?