36 replies to this topic

[Foulkey Reese]

This is like example 241 of the season, but still very strange. I just don't understand why Girardi acts like this with the press. What does he have to gain by lying about Mo's shoulder at this point in the season? I mean this goes beyond being coy with injuries like most managers are. Girardi is flat out lying to people and it's become an incredibly weird pattern this season.

What the hell is going on?

I’ll try to explain this as simply as I can.

Before the game, Joe Girardi told us that Mariano Rivera went back to New York to get his standard end-of-the-season physical. He wasn’t going to pitch anyway, the manager said, because he had a “cranky body.”

Girardi was asked several times and in several ways whether Rivera had an injury to his elbow and shoulder. He denied it every time. The questions were very exact. “He said his whole body was cranky,” Girardi said.

This made no sense. Rivera lives in New York all year, he can get his physical any time. Why leave now? I’ve never once heard of a player leaving a road trip to get a “standard physical.” Beyond that, this is Mariano Rivera. It made sense to check this out.

Most of the writers called Brian Cashman. The GM said the Rivera complained about a sore shoulder after Tuesday’s game and was sent back to New York to get an MRI. The Yankees wanted to make sure their closer is OK. Cashman said he isn’t too concerned but was waiting to get the results of the MRI.

Cashman said it was not a standard physical. The New York Times, meanwhile, is reporting that Rivera could need surgery.

After the game today, Girardi stuck to the “cranky body” story and denied that Rivera ever said his shoulder hurt, which contradicts what his boss said. Let’s assume for a second that this is true. If you were the manager of the Yankees and Rivera came to you and said he had a “cranky body” wouldn’t you ask him what was wrong? It is Mariano Rivera, after all. So either Girardi is not telling the truth or he’s irresponsible.

Girardi got contentious when asked about his misleading statements, slamming his fist down on his desk. It’s similar to what happened earlier this season when Phil Hughes, Brian Bruney, Chien-Ming Wang and Jorge Posada got hurt. Girardi’a first inclination is to be misleading.

It has gotten to the point where team officials now apologize to reporters for the manager’s actions. Nobody is sure why he does it because he gets caught every time.

http://yankees.lhblogs.com/

Edit: Listen to Girardi's post game remarks. He's either a terrible manager, or absolutely bat shit insane. The audio is must listen stuff either way.

Edited by Foulkey Reese, 26 September 2008 - 08:14 AM.

[Legendary Poker Face]

Don't mind Peter, he's just mad he doesn't get his stuff hand fed to him from Girardi like Torre used to.
Read the rest of the stuff he writes on Joe, most of it's just low shots and insults.

[Foulkey Reese]

Don't mind Peter, he's just mad he doesn't get his stuff hand fed to him from Girardi like Torre used to.
Read the rest of the stuff he writes on Joe, most of it's just low shots and insults.

I realize that Yankee fans all hate Abraham for some reason, but he's not the only reporter out there talking about this stuff. Heyman was talking about it with Mike the other day on WFAN.

Take Abraham out of it, what reason does Girardi have to act like that?

Edited by Foulkey Reese, 25 September 2008 - 10:56 PM.

[Legendary Poker Face]

He (Girardi) really likes to keep most info private. Injuries, team meetings, he got into a argument w/ a reporter before the July 4th game because he didn't discuss a meeting. To me, he just likes leaving stuff in house, a big change from Torre who used to be (fairly) open about stuff.

I don't know if he means to be an ass about it, even though he comes off like that.

[JulE6]

He (Girardi) really likes to keep most info private. Injuries, team meetings, he got into a argument w/ a reporter before the July 4th game because he didn't discuss a meeting. To me, he just likes leaving stuff in house, a big change from Torre who used to be (fairly) open about stuff.

I don't know if he means to be an ass about it, even though he comes off like that.

but isn't it a fairly large problem when the manager prefers to keep things in house and NOBODY else on the team cares one way or another what gets out?

[rembrat]

What is there to gain by not revealing an injury? And in this case, it's a precautionary MRI for a closer on a team with nothing to play for. All this makes me want to track down a Marlins message board and find out if playing spies with the press was the norm for Girardi down there in 2006.

[Rough Carrigan]

What is there to gain by not revealing an injury? And in this case, it's a precautionary MRI for a closer on a team with nothing to play for. All this makes me want to track down a Marlins message board and find out if playing spies with the press was the norm for Girardi down there in 2006.

They didn't have a message board. I think two guys by the beach had a dry-wipe board. But the messages before yesterday have all been erased.

[Foulkey Reese]

It's not just Abraham....

Girardi lied to reporters, writes The Daily News.

Girardi has misled reporters and been less than forthright, writes The New York Times.

Girardi did not acknowledge the shoulder injury, writes The Star-Ledger

Girardi said he wasn’t hiding information. But Rivera needs surgery, writes The New York Post

There is a seeming disconnect between Girardi and Cashman on this issue, writes Newsday.

Even Yankees.com acknowledges that “events conflicted.”

[Average Reds]

Girardi just seems to have some personality tic where he cannot bring himself to tell reporters any information that he doesn't think they are entitled to. Doesn't seem to matter if the information is important or not or whether the information has any bearing on the remainder of the season - he just cannot bring himself to tell the truth to a group of people he appears to fundamentally despise/distrust.

but isn't it a fairly large problem when the manager prefers to keep things in house and NOBODY else on the team cares one way or another what gets out?

This is the core of the problem. And in NY, it will eventually mushroom into a big problem if they don't get it under control.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Girardi just seems to have some personality tic where he cannot bring himself to tell reporters any information that he doesn't think they are entitled to. Doesn't seem to matter if the information is important or not or whether the information has any bearing on the remainder of the season - he just cannot bring himself to tell the truth to a group of people he appears to fundamentally despise/distrust.

I dunno, sounds like BB to me. And frankly I don't really care one way or the other.

The problem is not necessarily that Girardi wasn't forthcoming to the press. The problem is that Girardi and Cashman were not on the same page when it came to the information on Mo they would dispense.

[Average Reds]

I dunno, sounds like BB to me. And frankly I don't really care one way or the other.

The problem is not necessarily that Girardi wasn't forthcoming to the press. The problem is that Girardi and Cashman were not on the same page when it came to the information on Mo they would dispense.

It does sound like BB. The difference is that BB pretty much controls things in New England and Girardi clearly does not. So you have a problem where Girardi is not on the same page as Cashman ... seemingly on a fairly regular basis.

The other difference is that the lies Girardi has told have been revealed to be transparent and meaningless with some frequency. So I would submit that in NY, where the press tend to be ravenous about things like this, it could develop into a problem.

This doesn't matter at all to the players. But if the relationship between Girardi and the press becomes anatagonistic based on a media perception of Girardi having zero credibility - and from the looks of the articles being written about him, he's well on his way there - this will be a problem for him going forward. Call it the Captain Queeg syndrome.

[Foulkey Reese]

IThe problem is not necessarily that Girardi wasn't forthcoming to the press. The problem is that Girardi and Cashman were not on the same page when it came to the information on Mo they would dispense.

That's the strange part about it. Girardi will clearly lie about a players injury, and then the reporters will walk 20 feet away and get the real story right from that players mouth. It would be different if everybody was on the same page.

[yep]

I dunno, sounds like BB to me...

Well, except that he's bad at it.

I don't actually care whether Girardi lies to the press about injuries, but just as a tactical discussion, the important part about secretive/evasive is that you have to do it at all times for it to be effective. Moreover, giving nothing is a lot better than making up nonsensical stories, which actually makes it sound worse. A stoneface at poker only works as long as you keep it at all times. If you're always shooting the breeze and tossing away cards, calling them garbage, talking about your bad luck, and then you suddenly go quiet and focus on the game, you're not fooling anybody. And nothing, nothing draws more attention than trying to act nonchalant.

Like I said, it doesn't matter to me if a third-place team wants to keep secrets. There is mild entertainment value in watching clumsy attempts to control the media, but otherwise, this is kind of a non-story, I think.

[JimD]

I dunno, sounds like BB to me.

Except that Bill Belichick has won three Super Bowl championships and contends almost every year, while Girardi hasn't won anything yet and just piloted the most expensive team in baseball history to a third place finish. Huge credibility gap there, even accounting for Spygate.

[24JoshuaPoint]

Do the GM and Mgr not chat prior to games? Is that odd?

I don't mind not letting any information leave the organization by pulling a BB but make sure everyone else is aware. His tactics just seem strange on occasion. And he looks considerably older in a short period of time. Maybe he is losing his mind.

[TheoShmeo]

I dunno, sounds like BB to me. And frankly I don't really care one way or the other.

The problem is not necessarily that Girardi wasn't forthcoming to the press. The problem is that Girardi and Cashman were not on the same page when it came to the information on Mo they would dispense.

It does sound like Belichick. But I think it goes beyond a conflict with Cashman as Girardi has been doing this all year.

Going back to BB, would he be as secretive/misleading if it was after week 15 and the Pats had no shot of making the playoffs? Perhaps, but that's about what Girardi is doing now by being less than forthcoming with the Yankees out of it. There's no competitive advantage to be gained by keeping information close to the vest, yet he's doing it anyway.

[nycdoc999]

This is like example 241 of the season, but still very strange. I just don't understand why Girardi acts like this with the press. What does he have to gain by lying about Mo's shoulder at this point in the season? I mean this goes beyond being coy with injuries like most managers are. Girardi is flat out lying to people and it's become an incredibly weird pattern this season.

What the hell is going on?
http://yankees.lhblogs.com/

Edit: Listen to Girardi's post game remarks. He's either a terrible manager, or absolutely bat shit insane. The audio is must listen stuff either way.

I'm going to be happy when Girardi is fired at the ASB when the Yankees are 2 games below 500 and 12 out of first....

[rembrat]

Some updates:

Rivera told Girardi on Tuesday that his body was cranky. He told him on Wednesday before he left Toronto that his shoulder was hurt. Mariano told Girardi he wanted to break the news to the media. Mariano is the kind of guy who doesn't want anybody speaking for him. So Girardi invented the "it's his standard physical" story. But Cashman went with the truth. When Girardi was confronted with the truth after the game, he stuck with his lie.

Joe Girardi apologized to reporters for lying to them over the course of the season and said he has to come up with a better way to give us information about injuries. He said the only way he can prove he's serious is by his actions moving forward. So we'll see what happens.

Link

[yep]

Joe Girardi apologized to reporters for lying to them over the course of the season and said he has to come up with a better way to give us information about injuries

That's awesome. He needs a better way to give information than lying. Maybe he could slip notes into ice cream, or speak in pig latin. This is clearly a master strategizer. C-man better watch his ass.

[Jonny]

Peter Abraham is a whiny drama queen, and he will probably sue you for quoting his (horrible) posts in this thread.

[ifmanis5]

Everybody lies to the press about injuries. Girardi just isn't very good at it yet.

[Foulkey Reese]

Peter Abraham is a whiny drama queen, and he will probably sue you for quoting his (horrible) posts in this thread.

That has absolutely nothing to do with Girardi lying to the press constantly.

[curly2]

Peter Abraham is a whiny drama queen, and he will probably sue you for quoting his (horrible) posts in this thread.

I think some fans don't like him because he doesn't kiss Yankee ass. I remember before the season he said the Yankees wouldn't make the playoffs, and his board members revolted. Obviously we know who was right.

[jon abbey]

yeah, I like Abraham's work, I don't get the distaste for him except that Yankee fans by and large are generally quite stupid (not trying to suck up at all, the more any team wins, the dumber their fan base seems to get).

[Bob420]

I just don't get all the fuss. Who cares? It really makes no difference.

[Average Reds]

I just don't get all the fuss. Who cares? It really makes no difference.

Help me understand the value that this post brings to the discussion?

This isn't to say that your opinion isn't valid. But if all you have to add to the discussion is "who cares?" I would submit that it's a post that doesn't need to be made.

[Bob420]

Help me understand the value that this post brings to the discussion?

This isn't to say that your opinion isn't valid. But if all you have to add to the discussion is "who cares?" I would submit that it's a post that doesn't need to be made.

I also added that it really makes no difference. And it doesn't. Reporters like to think they are part of the game. They aren't. They are there to report what they see and hear. If Girardi wants to tell them that Mo told him his body was cranky and that it was an end of the year physical, he should be able to and they can report it. The media is really only there to give the fans access to the players and coaches. Personally, I think players and coaches should not have to talk to them. As a fan, I find no real added value of post game interviews and access to the players and coaches. More times than not, they are a distraction and try to create problems that they can write about. Go back to writing about the game they see on the field.

[HomeBrew1901]

Everybody lies to the press about injuries. Girardi just isn't very good at it yet.

It's not that Girardi isn't very goot at it, it's that he doesn't have the Belichick pull with the front office or players yet.

If the FO or Players kept their mouths shut this wouldn't even be an issue.

[Jonny]

I think some fans don't like him because he doesn't kiss Yankee ass. I remember before the season he said the Yankees wouldn't make the playoffs, and his board members revolted. Obviously we know who was right.

I'm not thrilled that he's a Red Sox/Patriots fan, but it goes beyond that. Abraham is childish and insecure, and it goes far beyond any personal allegiances.

[GregHarris]

I dunno, sounds like BB to me. And frankly I don't really care one way or the other.

Actually a better analogy would be like BB saying soandso's is not injured and then Pioli going to the press later and then correcting him.

Since BB is the single conduit to the press, this would never happen. IMO, Girardi is being undercut by his GM, or maybe he really is insane. There is no reason to make up a story like that, even after Cashman came out and corrected him.

[Worst Trade Evah]

Cashman in an interview with Mike today on WFAN, and had to address the question of Girardi's habit of lying to the press. Cashman's response was that stuff comes out anyway, so Joe is learning to handle things better. He can't enjoy having to answer that kind of question.

[DLew On Roids]

I also added that it really makes no difference. And it doesn't. Reporters like to think they are part of the game. They aren't. They are there to report what they see and hear. If Girardi wants to tell them that Mo told him his body was cranky and that it was an end of the year physical, he should be able to and they can report it. The media is really only there to give the fans access to the players and coaches. Personally, I think players and coaches should not have to talk to them. As a fan, I find no real added value of post game interviews and access to the players and coaches. More times than not, they are a distraction and try to create problems that they can write about. Go back to writing about the game they see on the field.

This post suggests a misunderstanding about the fundamental nature of journalism. Reporters are not there to report what Girardi says; they are there to find out facts. Moreover, if Girardi misrepresents the facts to reporters, that is a problem for both parties. With other parties willing to give the facts to reporters, however, it's much more of a problem for Girardi. While it's an inconvenience for reporters, lies undermine Girardi's credibility with reporters, and they won't report his perspective on things with any credulity in the future.

[Bob420]

This post suggests a misunderstanding about the fundamental nature of journalism. Reporters are not there to report what Girardi says; they are there to find out facts. Moreover, if Girardi misrepresents the facts to reporters, that is a problem for both parties. With other parties willing to give the facts to reporters, however, it's much more of a problem for Girardi. While it's an inconvenience for reporters, lies undermine Girardi's credibility with reporters, and they won't report his perspective on things with any credulity in the future.

If reporters are there to find out the facts, why ask Arod about how he feels about Jeter or any of the other thousand useless things they ask him? What kind of facts are those? You said they won't report his perspective on things in the future with any credulity. His perspective is not fact. Reporters stir up controversy whenever they can because it sells. Ultimately, the game is for the fans and I just don't see how Girardi hiding or not telling the complete truth about an injury to a reporter makes any difference. Does it really matter if Girardi said that Mo was cranky all over and it was a typical year end physical? The results will ultimately come out if there was anything serious found in the test. As a fan, it doesn't bother me. It bothers reporters because they want to break the news. What difference does it make if he was vague about it? Two days later the guy was pitching again and we know what we know. I think it is funny watching/reading Pete A and company cry about how Girardi doesn't give them the information they want. I actually find it more entertaining than if they were reporting the straight "facts".

[Foulkey Reese]

Well just for the record Brian Cashman spent about 5 minutes talking to Mike Francesca about this the other day. He made it very clear that this was something major that Girardi had to improve on for next season.

Edited by Foulkey Reese, 06 October 2008 - 01:33 PM.

[rembrat]

If reporters are there to find out the facts, why ask Arod about how he feels about Jeter or any of the other thousand useless things they ask him? What kind of facts are those? You said they won't report his perspective on things in the future with any credulity. His perspective is not fact.
-snip-
It bothers reporters because they want to break the news.

If a managers perspective on his own ball club is not fact then he has bigger issues besides being a 7 year old fibber. And of course reporters what to report, or as you say, break the news, because, well, it is their job. What a novel concept, people wanting to do their jobs! It's amazing the lengths some people will go to defend "their guy".

[yep]

If reporters are there to find out the facts, why ask Arod about how he feels about Jeter or any of the other thousand useless things they ask him? What kind of facts are those?... The results will ultimately come out ... It bothers reporters because they want to break the news...

Reporters ask everybody everything, and want to know and hear everything, and then report on what is interesting or newsworthy. If one player likes or dislikes another, that it is a reportable and possibly newsworthy "fact."

The point you were responding to is that a manager/spokesperson who attempts to control the news by lying/concealing/spinning runs the risk of achieving the opposite, i.e. losing any ability to "manage the news," as you yourself indicated is (part of) the manager's role:

If Girardi wants to tell them that Mo told him his body was cranky and that it was an end of the year physical, he should be able to and they can report it.

The manager has a great ability to limit or spin the "hard news" about his team, if the reporters and public trust him as a source. If they do not, then he has no control over what gets reported. Clumsy attempts to cover up are self-defeating and worse than saying nothing. A reliable source *can* have that relationship with the media that you describe, where the manager tells the press who is hurt and what the prognosis is, and the press reports it. But a habitual liar becomes a joke and loses any ability to control or direct what gets reported.

[Foulkey Reese]

Here comes more Abraham hate.....

Go to WFAN.com to listen to an interesting interview Mike Francesa had with Jon Heyman of Sports Illustrated.

Heyman said that Joe Girardi has problems in the clubhouse with the veteran players and it’s something he needs to address.

I’m sure some people will waste time wanting to kill the messenger or figure out why is telling Heyman this information. The point is that what he is saying is true. It’s much the same thing I’ve been writing about on this blog since May. Girardi’s style takes a lot of getting used to.

This isn’t about candy and ice cream. It’s about whether he can lead a group of people.

Girardi made a few comments near the end of the season that he understands he needs to make changes. Hopefully that is true and he wasn’t just talking for the sake of talking.

It was telling that the Yankees didn’t relax and start to play well until September, when they were out of the race and counting down the days to go home. It’s also worth noting that Jorge Posada became a ghost when he went on the DL. Or that Mariano Rivera was furious for much of the season about the lack of accountability some players got away with.

Remember that game in Anaheim when Betemit and Cano gave up on that 100-hop game-winning single and neither got a speck of public criticism? How do you think Posada felt that the public was being told his shoulder was “improving every day” when in fact he could barely swing the bat and needed extensive surgery.

Or that any time the Yankees faced any two-bit lefty for the first four months of the season, the lineup would get changed around? Or that Tony Pena, who is widely respected in the clubhouse, was marginalized because Girardi only wanted to bounce things off “his” coaches.

Just ask yourself this: Do you really think all those times they scored two or three runs were some coincidence? The Yankees spent half the season looking to get the game over with and go home.

As I have said all along, Girardi is no dope. He can figure this stuff out. Brian Cashman will talk to him. Derek Jeter will talk to him. Either he will figure it out or at some point next year, they’ll be looking for a new manager.