985 replies to this topic

[Lucen]

The team is overloaded with pitching and needs to move someone.  Moving Foulke and putting Paps in the closer's role (if he stumbles, Timlin or Tavarez can undoubtedly handle it) allows the Red Sox to establish a 5-man of Schilling, Beckett, Wakefield, Arroyo, and whomever they don't trade of Wells and Clement.  Foulke's not the most popular guy in town either, so moving him may not be the worst idea.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This simply isn't true. Schilling, Beckett, Wells, Clement, Wakefield as your starting 5, Foulke closes, Timlin sets up, Tavarez, Seanez and Riske are short inning relief, Arroyo and Papelbon are long relief and spot starters and fill in if someone gets injured. That's 12 pitchers, which isn't unreasonable to carry, all of which are quite valuable and none of which start the season as a weakness of any kind. There are risks with this staff, and keeping all of these pitchers adds insurance in case one or more of those risks is realized. There is no justificaton for saying they need to move someone.

They have a surplus and can afford to move someone if an offer for value comes along, but that's a far cry from needing to move someone. I'm not saying they shouldn't be exploring deals. But they're in a possition of strength here, and if they start the regular season with those 12 pitchers on the roster, it's not going to be a huge problem. It's going to be a nice luxury.

As for moving Foulke to get Kearns, I can't get behind that idea. I'd much rather they move Clement to bring in Kearns. I disagree that he's not filling a possition of need, as he can cover all 3 outfield spots if need be, and becomes the replacement for Trot in 2007. Every move doesn't have to be soley about 2006. And looking ahead here would be wise, since they won't have this much of a surplus next off season, presumably. Foulke, if healthy is worth too much to give up for Kearns. The bullpen is strong enough, and there is enough in the high minors (MDC, Hansen, DiNardo) that they can take the chance to see if he's healthy. There are 7 starters on the roster though, so if they're gonna move a pitcher, it should be a starter, not a guy who could very well be one of the most dominant closers in baseball again.

Edit: Only the first two paragraphs are in response to Alacoldart. The last paragraph is in response to Devizier.

Edited by Lucen, 21 February 2006 - 01:15 PM.

[Steve Dillard]

EEI postulates that Manny probably has backed out of the World Classic, so won't be leaving on March 2. Sox can't announce that, so they are coy about him reporting late, not able to mention the quid pro quo that he'll remain in camp rather than taking off the next day to play for the Domincan.

[staz]

Yep.  With the new "run silent, run deep" directive seeming to be holding up, I'd expect not to hear anything untill the $ is submitted to the commisioner for approval.  With how long the various aborted Manny trades took, I'm not surprised that this went to ST.

I'm not as sanguine that this is a "non-issue" with the Sox.  It just seems like they're holding out for Manny to have a change of heart, but in the meantime don't want to play hardball to get him into camp (Edit: and rightfully so, as yecul points out, but it's not a good sign for him playing with the Sox in August).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

People forget the very simple fact that Manny is under contract to play baseball for the Boston Red Sox this year. In my mind, and until that changes, either he shows up or does not - and his agent is well aware of the consequences of the latter. This request is neither extravagant nor without precedent (see Martinez, Pedro Jamie)

At the very least, kudos to the Sox P.R. Dept. for managing this issue. I feel a lot more comfortable hearing it first from the Sox (although rumors of a trip to Italy did surface beforehand), and not Buster Olney. Of course, we'll get to watch the eyes of every single ESPN anchor roll when they "break" this news, but we're used to that from them.

[SoxFanPJ]

Redsox interested in Juan Gone?

Gonzalez has been practicing daily and says that the Red Sox and White Sox have also shown interest in him.  Juan Gone's thoughts on playing in the National League for the first time in his career:

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

On the topic of Ramirez big deal, if he comes in late and out of shape it would be a bigger deal.

Of course I am sure coming in late to camp is something that makes the FO happy or is the example it wants to set for the youngsters in camp.

[drtooth]

Redsox interested in Juan Gone?
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If he is willing to be a role player, he might be worth a flier on. I am surprised that the Cubs or any NL team would take much of a chance on Gonzalez. Given his recent injury history (has not played in >100 games since 2001 per mlb.com), his days in the OF are probably over

[Alacoldart]

What guarantee have you received, and from whom, that Paps is ready to be a closer over a full season. And better still, why would you make him a closer? The odds are a lot better that Foulke will rebound from his knee surgeries to be an elite closer (VORP of 36.7 and 37 in 2004 and 2003-Rivera numbers) than the odds of Paps closing. Papelbon is being groomed to be a starter. Since when is an elite closer "not as necessary as he once was" for a team that's competing for a play-off spot? Just because you don't like Foulke is no reason to be coming up with ill-thought out scenarios to get rid of him.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I may not think much of him as a baseball personality, but I like him as a player. I believe I even said that. As for guarantees, there are clearly no guarantees on anything, but Papelbon showed himself to be sparkling in relief last season. He pitched 18 innings of relief surrendering 6 total ER and notching 19 strikeouts and issuing 7 free passes. While the 9th inning is a lot more difficult than any other inning, he has such explosive stuff that it would be difficult for most Major League hitters to adjust before the final 3 outs are recorded. Look at Eric Gagne, Brad Lidge, and Billy Wagner. Papelbon doesn't have much experience, granted, but neither did Street for the A's last season or K-Rod for the Angels in '02 and look what they've done. Papelbon's stuff can be just as dominating, especially if he ever fully harnesses that splitter.

As others have said, you can never have too much pitching and I agree. However, when you can deal a pitcher that isn't necessarily requisite to your success and improve the team in the process, why not? The Red Sox did just fine without Foulke last season, making the playoffs for the third straight season and claiming a share of the AL East crown DESPITE having one of the worst bullpen ERAs in all of baseball. They've improved their bullpen dramatically in the off-season and even if Seanez, Tavarez, or Riske suddenly regress horrifically, the 'pen is stacked enough that they can weather the storm. If worse comes to worse, DiNardo, Alvarez, and Van Buren will be down in the minors ready to come up and contribute.

I believe Papelbon can handle the closer's role, but if he can't there are several that could. Keith Foulke, for all he did in 2004, is not necessary to the team's success in 2006 and if they can get a young player to slide in for when Nixon probably goes down or departs at the end of this season, it's not going to make the team categorically weaker. As much as people around here tend to doubt he'll make the team, Vermilyea should also be considered. I don't see this FO wasting a Rule V pick on someone that has zero shot to make the team from the outset, which many were saying was the case when it was announced.

I'm not saying the Red Sox SHOULD trade Keith Foulke just because they might not need him, but that it's something to consider given the pitching depth they have no only on the active roster, but on the 40-man too. Personally, I hope that if they keep him around he rebounds and has a career year. But it wouldn't cripple the team to let him try to do that somewhere else if they can improve in the process. Austin Kearns is likely going to be an improvement.

[xjack]

As much as people around here tend to doubt he'll make the team, Vermilyea should also be considered. I don't see this FO wasting a Rule V pick on someone that has zero shot to make the team from the outset, which many were saying was the case when it was announced.

They might not draft him if they thought he had "zero shot," but I definitely think they'd make a Rule V selection simply as injury insurance.

[absintheofmalaise]

I may not think much of him as a baseball personality, but I like him as a player.  I believe I even said that.  As for guarantees, there are clearly no guarantees on anything, but Papelbon showed himself to be sparkling in relief last season.  He pitched 18 innings of relief surrendering 6 total ER and notching 19 strikeouts and issuing 7 free passes.  While the 9th inning is a lot more difficult than any other inning, he has such explosive stuff that it would be difficult for most Major League hitters to adjust before the final 3 outs are recorded.  Look at Eric Gagne, Brad Lidge, and Billy Wagner.  Papelbon doesn't have much experience, granted, but neither did Street for the A's last season or K-Rod for the Angels in '02 and look what they've done.  Papelbon's stuff can be just as dominating, especially if he ever fully harnesses that splitter.

As others have said, you can never have too much pitching and I agree.  However, when you can deal a pitcher that isn't necessarily requisite to your success and improve the team in the process, why not? The Red Sox did just fine without Foulke last season, making the playoffs for the third straight season and claiming a share of the AL East crown DESPITE having one of the worst bullpen ERAs in all of baseball.  They've improved their bullpen dramatically in the off-season and even if Seanez, Tavarez, or Riske suddenly regress horrifically, the 'pen is stacked enough that they can weather the storm.  If worse comes to worse, DiNardo, Alvarez, and Van Buren will be down in the minors ready to come up and contribute.

I believe Papelbon can handle the closer's role, but if he can't there are several that could.  Keith Foulke, for all he did in 2004, is not necessary to the team's success in 2006 and if they can get a young player to slide in for when Nixon probably goes down or departs at the end of this season, it's not going to make the team categorically weaker. 

Austin Kearns is likely going to be an improvement.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Once again. Papelbon is being groomed to be a, hopefully, dominant starter. Hansen is being groomed to be a, hopefully, dominant closer. Gagne, Lidge and Wagner,K-Rod and Street are closers for a reason. The single hardest thing to develop in MLB is dominant starting pitching. Dominant starting pitching is the cornerstone of a championship caliber baseball team. A dominant closer is another. You do not waste someone with the talent that Papelbon has as a reliever. I'm sure Papelbon can handle the closers role too, but why? And no, the Sox did not "do just fine" without Foulke last year. Because they did not have a dominant closer Tito had to shuffle the players around in the bullpen and add stress to an already depleted starting staff. I find it unbelievable that you would want to trade away one of the most effective closers in baseball for a fourth OF who is "likely to be an improvement".

Edited by absintheofmalaise, 21 February 2006 - 03:22 PM.

EEI postulates that Manny probably has backed out of the World Classic, so won't be leaving on March 2.  Sox can't announce that, so they are coy about him reporting late, not able to mention the quid pro quo that he'll remain in camp rather than taking off the next day to play for the Domincan.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

link
Manny is granted permission to report on March 1st.

[smastroyin]

Hey guys I think we all had enough of the rumor mongering during the entire off-season. Let's agree to disagree and move on unless there is some news, mm'kay? If there was even a solid report that the Sox were considering trading Foulke for Kearns, then the discussion would be warranted. But, as a dreamed up SoSH-scenario, I hardly think it's worth any more time.

Also, if you can think of it, please try to avoid quoting entire long posts. Thanks.

[nolasoxfan]

Anyone else think that maybe they are still working on moving him?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Count me in that camp. HOWEVER, I still don't think a deal gets done.

I also don't think it bodes well for team morale--with or without FO permission.

[Gambler7]

Big Edgar is....big

[Rudy Pemberton]

Wow, looks just like Bartolo Colon, hope he pitches like him too.

[URI]

I also don't think it bodes well for team morale--with or without FO permission.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Is Mark Loretta going to refuse to hit because Manny shows up late, or is Coco Crisp just going to jog after balls in the gap?

The team gave permission, probably because they thought the idea wasn't so distructive as to submarine the Red Sox season. .290/.400/.600 has a way of improving morale much more than watching Manny jog for 20 minutes before he hugs Ortiz and goes home to play Nintendo DS while eating Fruity Pebbles.

[smnookin]

Pedroia is listed by BP as being the third most valuable AL 2nd baseman, as ranked by PECOTA projected VORP. No pressure, though.

Howie Kendrick LAA 36.1
Brian Roberts BAL 35.8
Dustin Pedroia BOS 33.8
Placido Polanco DET 29.1
Jorge Cantu TBA 26.0

[someoneanywhere]

Is Mark Loretta going to refuse to hit because Manny shows up late, or is Coco Crisp just going to jog after balls in the gap?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm sorry if I just can't get worked up over this. URI has it right. Look, the guy was a "distraction" all winter long -- how does six days in February change anything? More than any other season since Manny has been in Boston, I would think the other 24 would be inured to the idea that Manny is going to hit one way or another, and that hitting is why he's being paid $18 million per, and that since whatever planet he is on is also the place where they teach you to go .300/40/140, they can deal with it.

Here's the thing about Manny: whatever his deal may be -- wherever Planet Manny is -- he isn't polarizing. Very rarely have the issues we know about been the sort that force the clubhouse to take sides. Compare this to the TO situation in Philly, where reports are that it became a McNabb-TO-FO cluster****, which had people in the locker room pointing fingers, placing blame, choosing colors. None of that here -- which is not to say that people don't get aggravated, annoyed, or even infuriated with him, only that the issues aren't apparently dividing-line issues.

So give him March 1. And give us the 40 dongs.

[bowiac]

Pedroia is listed by BP as being the third most valuable AL 2nd baseman, as ranked by PECOTA projected VORP. No pressure, though.

Howie Kendrick LAA 36.1
Brian Roberts BAL 35.8
Dustin Pedroia BOS 33.8
Placido Polanco DET 29.1
Jorge Cantu TBA 26.0

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I love this list.

Two guys, including #1 overall, are not in the major yet, while another had half a breakout season, and half of an injury plagued one.

Part of this is that 2B has now become an offensive wasteland, but still...

[k-factory]

I love this list.

Two guys, including #1 overall, are not in the major yet, while another had half a breakout season, and half of an injury plagued one.

Part of this is that 2B has now become an offensive wasteland, but still...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And part of it is that the majority of quality 2B are in the NL -- Soriano, Utley, Giles, Kent, Weeks, even Barfield though we have yet to see what he can do in the majors after an excellent minor league campaign.
Its just a cyclical thing. A new crop of 2B will emerge in the AL.

I'm surprised Iguchi doesn't make the top 5 and Polanco (!) does according to PECOTA. That .847 OPS he posted in 86 games in Detroit last year is a pretty dramatic outlier.

[The Allented Mr Ripley]

I believe Papelbon can handle the closer's role, but if he can't there are several that could. Keith Foulke, for all he did in 2004, is not necessary to the team's success in 2006 and if they can get a young player to slide in for when Nixon probably goes down or departs at the end of this season, it's not going to make the team categorically weaker. As much as people around here tend to doubt he'll make the team, Vermilyea should also be considered. I don't see this FO wasting a Rule V pick on someone that has zero shot to make the team from the outset, which many were saying was the case when it was announced.

Are you saying Vermilyea should be considered for the closer's role, or considered for the bullpen? Because there's a big difference.

And what do you mean by "wasting" a Rule 5 pick? They aren't commodities to be held onto if you're not going to use them. Rule 5 players are drafted as fliers all the time... teams see how a Rule 5 player then performs in camp, and if it's obvious he can't cut it, you return him to his original team and get half of your money back. The investment loss would be $25K in that case, which isn't a bad gamble. The upside, considering the initial (and minimal) $50K fee, makes it worth rolling the dice on.

Frankly, the wasting part of the process comes when you have a situation like Adam Stern's. I'd rather they return guys after ST than go through hoops to keep them around when it's hard to justify doing so.

Edited by The Allented Mr Ripley, 21 February 2006 - 11:08 PM.

[URI]

I don't see this FO wasting a Rule V pick on someone that has zero shot to make the team from the outset, which many were saying was the case when it was announced.

Well, there was very little chance Lenny DiNardo, Colter Bean, Matt White, or Javier Lopez would have stuck, but the Sox drafted them all.

They got DiNardo, and all it cost them was $125,000 (out of that 4).

I'm still not sure what they plan to do with Stern. I would say that Vermilyea's chances are more inline with the 4 pitchers mentioned above.

By the way, I'm sorry Keith Foulke has murdered your family and abused your pets. He'll do better next time. That's the only logical way I can think of moving one of the best closers in the last five years out of the closer role/bullpen for a Rule V'er after one year where he struggled with personal and physical problems.

The backup plan to Foulke as closer is probably someone like Timlin, or Tavarez. If you want to exile him off the team or think that he will be hurt all year, there are better internal options than Vermilyea.

[Dewy4PrezII]

I'm not quite sure how the whole notion that signing Graffanino made him trade bait came about.  In my view, Graffanino is insurance in case either Loretta, Gonzalez or Lowell fail to pan out.  Frankly, I think the odds of all three making complete recoveries is only logical under the effect of RCG's.  I think the Sox are absolutely going to go with both Cora and Graffanino and have always planned on that for this reason.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

but how exactly do the roster spots work, I mean the bullpen is pretty full so an 11 man pitching staff is guaranteed. Then you have what Cora, Snow, Graffanino, Mohr, Bard (or other), so what Mohr is the only reserve outfielder on the roster...Clearly Cora and Graff are redundant.

[templeUsox]

More Manny stuff.

"I don’t give two (expletive) when Manny shows up. He’ll be ready to play," Curt Schilling said. "I don’t care. He’ll be ready. One thing Manny does is put in his time and effort into getting ready. On (Opening Day) April 3, he’ll be here and ready to hit."

Bronson Arroyo agreed.
    "I think he deserves special treatment," he said. "Tito (Francona) says every year the veterans around here are not going to be treated like the young guys, they’re not going to go on long road trips and aren’t going to go to Fort Lauderdale (Fla.) and sit in the bullpen to pitch an inning. I think Manny’s earned the right to have more freedom than anyone we have around here right now."

"He doesn’t pick up the phone," Ortiz said. "I’ve got a better chance of reaching you, and I don’t have your phone number."
    Even so, Ortiz said he suspects Ramirez has a legitimate reason for not being in town tomorrow and doesn’t think he’s boycotting camp because his offseason trade request wasn’t fulfilled.

Arroyo said Ramirez is more complicated than people understand.
    "Manny is a strange guy," he said. "On the outside, he’s happy-go-lucky, but on the inside, he’s got a lot of conspiracy theories. I’d say Manny might be one of these guys when he’s 50 years old who might be in his house with all the blinds shut, looking out like the CIA’s after him. You don’t know what’s going on in the interior with him, so you don’t worry about him."

Link

Edited by templeUsox, 22 February 2006 - 12:37 AM.

[CaptainLaddie]

Say what you will about Bronson, he's never at a loss for words. I, frankly, don't give a hoot if he doesn't show up until March 1st. If he's not there on April 1st, then we've got an issue, but this is just WEEI fodder, AFAIK.

Edited by CaptainLaddie, 22 February 2006 - 01:51 AM.

[SoxFanPJ]

What came first, the chicken or the egg?

O-Cab makes it sound like the Manny is upset and wants to be traded because the Sox tried to trade him. Why exactly would Manny be upset with the sox trying to meet his series of trade demands.

  “He really wanted me to talk to people here to tell them that he really wants to come here,” Cabrera said. “I don’t have that kind of power. I don’t mess around with that, trying to become the GM or anything like that. That’s not my job . . . (but) of course we’d like to have him. He’s a good guy to have around.”


    “They’ve been trying to get rid of him for the last three years,” Cabrera said. “I don’t see no reason why he would be happy. If that was me and they were treating me like that, I wouldn’t be happy.”
   

http://redsox.boston...rticleid=127429

[templeUsox]

It's difficult to trust your eyes when watching pitchers throw in February, but it's evident from seeing Josh Beckett, Jon Papelbon, Jon Lester, and Schilling throw side by side that the three younger pitchers are driving off the mound and throwing the ball with more authority than Schilling. ''It's not something I'm even concerned with now," Schilling said. ''I'm very comfortable with the way my foot's working. I'm where I want to be." It's worth noting that Schilling threw off a mound for 19 minutes yesterday, while Beckett, Papelbon, and Lester threw for the standard 12 minutes. ''Bullpenwise, I'm not going to be able to get the work in I want to get in in 12 minutes," Schilling said. ''I need to start fine-tuning things." . . . Lester threw to Jason Varitek yesterday for the first time and demonstrated poise. Varitek, to begin the session, set up on the outside corner of the plate, and as he did, he asked Lester, ''Where do you want me?" Lester nodded, indicating that Varitek's positioning was fine. The 22-year-old then unleashed a fastball that hit Varitek square in the mitt. Schilling on Lester: ''He's beyond his years as far as polish goes."

Its probably fluff from JV, but its still fun to hear anecdotes like that.

Link

[dauber23]

Say what you will about Bronson, he's never at a loss for words.  I, frankly, don't give a hoot if he doesn't show up until March 1st.  If he's not there on April 1st, then we've got an issue, but this is just WEEI fodder, AFAIK.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why would you not care if Manny is late to camp?

The man says "trade me or I won't report," and, when they can't find a trade, he decides not to show. Maybe Manny really is in the midst of a workout program that needs to be finished in Miami, but that's not what I am betting the house on.

This is just more posturing and attitude problems--more "Manny being a jerk" and putting himself before the team.

When should we worry? If Manny doesn't show on March 1, should we worry? How about March 15?

It's going to be a long season of Manny-being-Manny disruptions, if Manny has started his childish and selfish attitude problems before ever donning a uniform in the Spring.

I don't boo players, but if I were at ST this year, I would be tempted to boo Manny when he finally condescends and joins his teammates on the field.

And if I were Robin, I would take 10 cents on the dollar for Manny and say "good riddence."

[Carroll Hardy]

Robins that impulsively take 10 cents on the dollar for talents like Manny don't stay Robin very long.

That said, I noticed that the statement issued by the Red Sox did not state: ""With the permission of the Boston Red Sox, Manny Ramirez will report to spring training in Fort Myers on March 1, 2006. Manny is in Florida completing an extensive training regimen and is prepared to have an exceptional season with the Boston Red Sox."

This decision may be more mutual than it appears. I still think the ballclub is actively looking to trade both Wells and Ramirez, but the team will expect more than 10 cents in return. In the meantime, if Manny's not in camp it's actually less of a distraction than if he's there with daily imminent trade rumors flying around.

[yazsui]

Robins that impulsively take 10 cents on the dollar for talents like Manny don't stay Robin very long.

That said, I noticed that the statement issued by the Red Sox did not state:  ""With the permission of the Boston Red Sox, Manny Ramirez will report to spring training in Fort Myers on March 1, 2006. Manny is in Florida completing an extensive training regimen and is prepared to have an exceptional season with the Boston Red Sox."

This decision may be more mutual than it appears.  I still think the ballclub is actively looking to trade both Wells and Ramirez, but the team will expect more than 10 cents in return.  In the meantime, if Manny's not in camp it's actually less of a distraction than if he's there with daily imminent trade rumors flying around.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Somewhere in Texas/Arizona Millar is laughing his arse off right now. I bet he is the one that is finishing up Manny's training. Maybe he is preparing him for life without him on the Red Sox. I just hope that Jack Daniels is not there with them.

To be serious for a moment, who is going to take on the role of Manny's friend? I think it is clear that Papi, while clearly involved, does not want to be his babysitter. And Tito has other things on his plate it seems. I think, in the end, Tito is going to have to spend more time on this because all the rest are gone and that is going to put a drain on his time with others.

Should be interesting to see who emerges as the ONE. With all the camp invitees, wasn't there a few that were potentially going to be anointed?

Where is Pedro’s midget when you need him, he doesn’t eat much? Mahow!, Mahow!

[TheoShmeo]

What came first, the chicken or the egg?

O-Cab makes it sound like the Manny is upset and wants to be traded because the Sox tried to trade him.  Why exactly would Manny be upset with the sox trying to meet his series of trade demands. 
http://redsox.boston...rticleid=127429

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I had the same initial reaction to O-Cab's statements, but I think he (and, indirectly, Manny) is really referring to the Sox having put Manny on waivers and the attempted A-Rod trade, not the subsequent efforts to meet Manny's requests. I know it's dangerous to try to make sense of anything related to Manny, but I was always a little bit surprised that Manny never reacted badly to those things (as Nomar did to the A-Rod/Maglio trade), and perhaps now we're seeing that it was just a delayed reaction. And that doesn't mean that there aren't other factors that are contributing to the recent trade requests.

In any event, I think Manny's delayed appearance at ST is classic grand-standing by Manny, and probably is intended to urge the Sox to continue their efforts to trade him. It's a not so subtle reminder that he's going to take every opportunity to cause the FO aggravation if he's around.

But the good news is that Theo is only going to pull the trigger if he's getting 85 cents on the dollar (he could have taken 50 cents long ago, never mind 10 cents), that will probably not happen as teams will continue to offer much less than 85 cents, and Manny will likely be back in Boston producing as he always has. And now that a Tejada deal is off the table, I think that's a very good result.

Edited by TheoShmeo, 22 February 2006 - 07:44 AM.

[Rough Carrigan]

Not sure where else to post this, FWIW, Keith Foulke was on fox sports net last night and said that he thinks he'll dominate again and that we'll see him throwing in the low 90's this year.

Yes!

[dauber23]

Robins that impulsively take 10 cents on the dollar for talents like Manny don't stay Robin very long.

That said, I noticed that the statement issued by the Red Sox did not state:  ""With the permission of the Boston Red Sox, Manny Ramirez will report to spring training in Fort Myers on March 1, 2006. Manny is in Florida completing an extensive training regimen and is prepared to have an exceptional season with the Boston Red Sox."

This decision may be more mutual than it appears.  I still think the ballclub is actively looking to trade both Wells and Ramirez, but the team will expect more than 10 cents in return.  In the meantime, if Manny's not in camp it's actually less of a distraction than if he's there with daily imminent trade rumors flying around.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As I recall, a couple of years ago our Robin did indeed offer Manny on waivers for free to anyone who would claim him and pay him.

But alas, there were no takers. The other GMs were too smart to want a $20 million dollar manchild problem.

I know. I love Manny's production. I just want him to act like a man and live up to his obligations.

[smastroyin]

As I recall, a couple of years ago our Robin did indeed offer Manny on waivers for free to anyone who would claim him and pay him.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This kind of willful ignorance of the differences between the situation as it stood two years ago and the situation today may let you come across as edgy and sarcastic, but it doesn't really do anything to address the point of whether they would trade him today.

The last two years were the most expensive years in terms of NPV of real dollars being paid to Manny. Two years ago, his contract was hugely out of proportion to approximate replacement (e.g. Vlad Guerrero). Today his remaining contract is pretty much in line with the market. Still overpriced by a bit (depending on how much you devalue him for defense), but not nearly as much - and there is no replacement on the market. And it is unlikely a good replacement will become available in the six weeks before the season begins.

I guess if you ignore all of this, you can say that the situation in spring training of 2006 is the same as it was at the beginning of the off-season in 2003.

Edited by smastroyin, 22 February 2006 - 08:31 AM.

[Gambler7]

Correct me if I am wrong, but weren't there even reports back in 2003 when he was put on waivers it was after he again asked to be traded? I could have sworn that started it and when he asked the Sox said fine, we'll just put you on waivers, essentially showing him that it was, at the time and with the money left on his deal, impossible for them to do anything.

I've never understood anyone else saying "well no wonder he wants out, they always try to trade him." He has been asking to be traded since the second day he was here.

[TheoShmeo]

As I recall, a couple of years ago our Robin did indeed offer Manny on waivers for free to anyone who would claim him and pay him.

But alas, there were no takers. The other GMs were too smart to want a $20 million dollar manchild problem.

I know. I love Manny's production. I just want him to act like a man and live up to his obligations.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We all want that of Manny but with Manny, we take the immaturity along with his production. A familar refrain with the Sox and other babyish superstars in pro sports. Look at all the teams angling for TO right now.

Theo put Manny on waivers when his contract was perceived as wildly over market. The term was also 3 years longer then. That's no longer the case in light of the time having passed and recent signings. If Theo put him on waivers now or indicated that he'd take anywhere near 10 cents on the dollar, he would surely find takers.

Edit: I see Smastroyin beat me to it.....and I think my 3 years reference should actually be 2 years....

Edited by TheoShmeo, 22 February 2006 - 08:42 AM.

[irinmike]

Who cares other then the writers in Fort Myers, who have nothing else to do at this point in spring training, other then float the Manny this and that rumors. I for one am tired of reading Boston sports pages about Manny off the field. He will show up and produce as he always has.

[Devizier]

Does Manny's tardiness to ST affect his production on the field, ever?

Does Manny's tardiness affect the team's play, on the field?

No and no.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, there's no answer to either question, since we don't have the alternate scenario with which to compare. But it is worth nothing that the Red Sox (players and organization) know what they're dealing with in Manny Ramirez.

[DJnVa]

Why would you not care if Manny is late to camp?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Because it's 1 day after he is contractually obligated to be there and he got permission a week beforehand. Not a big deal.

[URI]

I'm waiting for a compelling reason to care why he's a day late. I really don't care if he shows up on April 3rd as long as he's ready to hit.

[William Robertson]

Eric Wilbur, in his blog today, fulminates a bit about Keith Foulke's recent comments about boredom, suggesting that if Foulkie is bored in the ninth inning with the game on the line, why should we fans care what happens. Actually, I would love to have my closer be bored. Most of the great closers I have observed, including notably Fruitbat, have seemed quite bored under pressure. It isn't really boredom, actually, it is coolness under pressure. (Wilbur begins his essay griping about Manny, who acted bored all the way to being World Series MVP.) Finally, Wilbur expresses a bit of puzzlement at why Foulke gets a free pass from the fans. Is he talking about us?

[staz]

This might just be my penchant for conspiracy, but after watching Red Sox Now on NESN last night, I was left with the thought that this delay in Manny's arrival might somehow be related to some covert, eminent deal in the works. The only reason for this admittedly half-baked thought is based on the brief "reactions" to Manny's delay from 3 parties: Theo, Francona, and at least one player (Timlin, I think). What struck me was that each began their response to the reporters question (asking for their reaction to the delay) with the phrase "in a perfect world, everyone would...". It just seems to me highly coincidental that 3 very different people would employ the same colloquialism - as if everyone was instructed to respond the same way to ensure the cloak of secrecy that's du rigeur in the FO these days.

Probably nothing, but I wonder if anyone else who saw the program thought that this was at least odd...

/crazy talk

[TheoShmeo]

Eric Wilbur, in his blog today, fulminates a bit about Keith Foulke's recent comments about boredom, suggesting that if Foulkie is bored in the ninth inning with the game on the line, why should we fans care what happens.  Actually, I would love to have my closer be bored.  Most of the great closers I have observed, including notably Fruitbat, have seemed quite bored under pressure.  It isn't really boredom, actually, it is coolness under pressure.  (Wilbur begins his essay griping about Manny, who acted bored all the way to being World Series MVP.)  Finally, Wilbur expresses a bit of puzzlement at why Foulke gets a free pass from the fans.  Is he talking about us?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think it's comical that people like Wilbur seemingly assume that their motivations and attitudes are similar to those of accomplished athletes like Foulke.

I have always assumed that part of what makes great athletes great is their unique and often edgy personalities. Yeah, it would be nice if, for example, Pedro Martinez was not somewhat difficult, self-centered and in constant need of signs of respect from the FO, but it's also likely that without that component of his personality, he would not be as great as he is. Said differently, I agree wholeheartedly with you in that part of what makes Foulke be able to dominate as he did during the 2004 ALCS and WS is probably his detatched attitude. Wishing he was otherwise is foolish.

Edited by TheoShmeo, 22 February 2006 - 09:56 AM.

[BCsMightyJoeYoung]

Eric Wilbur, in his blog today, fulminates a bit about Keith Foulke's recent comments about boredom, suggesting that if Foulkie is bored in the ninth inning with the game on the line, why should we fans care what happens. Actually, I would love to have my closer be bored. Most of the great closers I have observed, including notably Fruitbat, have seemed quite bored under pressure. It isn't really boredom, actually, it is coolness under pressure. (Wilbur begins his essay griping about Manny, who acted bored all the way to being World Series MVP.) Finally, Wilbur expresses a bit of puzzlement at why Foulke gets a free pass from the fans. Is he talking about us?

It really is a pity that these guys (the Media in general) never actually pay attention to what athletes say. Foulke never said that he was bored playing baseball. He said that watching baseball bores him. There's a huge difference. Who cares whether he gets all all exited watching David Wells pitch in the 3rd inning. It's his mindset when he is on the mound that counts. I find it rather refreshing that he's not totally obsessed with the minutia of baseball.

[Steve Dillard]

“He really wanted me to talk to people here to tell them that he really wants to come here,” Cabrera said. “I don’t have that kind of power. I don’t mess around with that, trying to become the GM or anything like that. That’s not my job . . . (but) of course we’d like to have him. He’s a good guy to have around.”

http://redsox.boston...rticleid=127429

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I guess that puts to rest one rumor as to why Ocab wasn't resigned.

[someoneanywhere]

Eric Wilbur, in his blog today, fulminates a bit about Keith Foulke's recent comments about boredom, suggesting that if Foulkie is bored in the ninth inning with the game on the line, why should we fans care what happens.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But of course Wilbur has construed Foulke's comments exactly how he wants to construe them -- and which construction says more aout Wilbur's boredom than it does about Foulke's. Like many, many closers and relief pitchers before him, Foulke only said that he's not much interested in how they get him the ball. He said nothing -- not a word -- about being bored or disinterested once he has it. If Lee Smith can take naps in the clubhouse -- shoot, if wirters like Wilbur can complain about the length of games -- Foulke can express himself in exactly this fashion, IMO.

Wilbur, however, can afford neither to be bored nor boring. Which is why we have him putting words in Foulke's mouth.

[dauber23]

I think it's comical that people like Wilbur seemingly assume that their motivations and attitudes are similar to those of accomplished athletes like Foulke.

I have always assumed that part of what makes great athletes great is their unique and often edgy personalities.  Yeah, it would be nice if, for example, Pedro Martinez was not somewhat difficult, self-centered and in constant need of signs of respect from the FO, but it's also likely that without that component of his personality, he would not be as great as he is.  Said differently, I agree wholeheartedly with you in that part of what makes Foulke be able to dominate as he did during the 2004 ALCS and WS is probably his detatched attitude.  Wishing he was otherwise is foolish.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Great athletes do indeed seem to get away with being jerks, with behavior that would get most workers fired. This is sad, not something to celebrate.

But Foulke was hardly a great athelete last year. In fact, he stunk big time. He has a lot to prove this year, and he would be well-advised to set aside being a jerk, or a manchild, and start acting like a responsible, well-paid professional.

Is this too much to ask?

[behindthepen]

kudos to Rob Bradford of the Eagle-Tribune ... instead of vomiting up the typical Boston media drivel when Manny's late report was announced ... he did some REPORTING .... see this article on Juan Carlos Santana, Manny's trainer:

Santana, Ramirez's personal trainer for the past five years, has a different viewpoint.

"I can guarantee you. Guarantee you!" exclaimed the 47-year-old Santana in regard to whether or not Ramirez would be better served at his current location, the Institute of Human Performance in Boca Raton, than Fort Myers. "I'll bet my house with my children inside that there is nobody putting their baseball players through what we're putting our baseball players through. No doubt about it. Believe me, most of those who come through here are begging for spring practice. This is nasty here."

"He wants the MVP this year in the worst way," said Santana, who assigns Andy DeRojas to work specifically with Ramirez. "The one thing people don't know about Manny, and that Manny doesn't get enough credit for, is his work ethic. He is one of the hardest workers, most deliberate guys that I have here. He shows up. And when he shows up, it is game time and he gives you everything he's got."

Santana reports that Ramirez has visited the center 40 minutes north of his house religiously five times a week, partaking in intense, hour-long training sessions.

and last, but certainly not least:

"The first thing one has to notice was when Manny was with the Indians he had hamstring issues," Santana said. "We took our approach to rehabilitating the hamstrings and training the hamstrings. Since then, he hasn't had hamstring issues, ever. There have been a few times that the media has said he has had it, so I would call (former Sox trainer) Chris Correnti and say, 'What's up bro? I sent you a Ferrari. Don't tell me you have a Volkswagen with a flat.' He said, 'No, no man. Every time he needs a little time off he blames the hamstring, but he's perfectly healthy. It's all good.' "

[Alacoldart]

I hope Tito read that article. That way, next time Manny says his hammies are bothering him, Francona can laugh and say, "Manny, if you want a day off just say that. We both know your hamstrings are fine." Maybe they can work out a schedule ahead of time or something that says Manny gets every 20th game off, not including the All-Star Break. That'd give him a guaranteed 7-8 days off a season and let Tito plan in advance to have Crisp play LF and Kapler/Mohr/Hidalgo(?) play CF.

Good stuff to know, though.

[Gambler7]

"I hope Tito read that article. That way, next time Manny says his hammies are bothering him, Francona can laugh and say, "Manny, if you want a day off just say that. We both know your hamstrings are fine.""

Do you think Francona never talked with Correnti about Manny and had absolutely no idea what "tight hamstrings" meant? Or even talked with Manny himself? It's likely geared more towards the media than anything.

[reggiecleveland]

"I hope Tito read that article. That way, next time Manny says his hammies are bothering him, Francona can laugh and say, "Manny, if you want a day off just say that. We both know your hamstrings are fine.""

Do you think Francona never talked with Correnti about Manny and had absolutely no idea what "tight hamstrings" meant? Or even talked with Manny himself? It's likely geared more towards the media than anything.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No kidding does anyone think Tito gets less info from the team's trainers than Manny's personal trainer.