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Spain's controversial picture


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#1 Daily Conundrum

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Posted 13 August 2008 - 01:37 PM

Link

Apologies if posted elsewhere (I can't see it anywhere here, though), but why would Spain think this was a good idea? Admittedly funny, but incredibly stupid nonetheless.

#2 bsj


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Posted 13 August 2008 - 01:38 PM

"The pollution got into our eyes"

Classic answer. :rolling:

#3 LateRally

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Posted 13 August 2008 - 01:50 PM

In the media forum as well.

#4 Ed Hillel


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Posted 13 August 2008 - 01:53 PM

Team USA was already going to have "home court" advantage with their star power in China, but now I think it got even bigger against probably their stiffest competition. An incredibly racist and stupid act by the Spaniards.

Edit - Although that pollution comment is hilarious.

Edited by Ed Hillel, 13 August 2008 - 01:53 PM.


#5 Mark Schofield


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Posted 14 August 2008 - 06:47 PM

Might want to change the "picture" in the thread title to "pictures."

http://www.telegraph...ed-gesture.html

#6 Guinevere

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 07:14 PM

Please tell me Rafa Nadal is *not* in that picture. What a bunch of idiots.

#7 sachmoney


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Posted 20 August 2008 - 12:38 PM

Please tell me Rafa Nadal is *not* in that picture. What a bunch of idiots.


I did not see the World's number one tennis player.

#8 SaladParmesan

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Posted 20 August 2008 - 01:23 PM

I did not see the World's number one tennis player.


Front row, second from the right. He's the one with the nice tits.

#9 SeoulSoxFan


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Posted 24 August 2008 - 12:40 AM

Might want to change the "picture" in the thread title to "pictures."

http://www.telegraph...ed-gesture.html



Jesus did not see that second photo.

Now tell me, is the awareness really that low in Spain or other parts of Europe that no one, NO ONE thought to have stopped the non-sense? And to include the phrase "Oriental" in the published apology?

Hey some bag lady in NY called me and wife "Orientals" today and I take it for what it is, but I am really genuinely curious to find out if Spaniards really thought it was a "loving gesture", and if the entire country doesn't know how offensive/idiotic it is.

#10 Nick Kaufman


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Posted 24 August 2008 - 12:50 AM

Hey some bag lady in NY called me and wife "Orientals" today and I take it for what it is, but I am really genuinely curious to find out if Spaniards really thought it was a "loving gesture", and if the entire country doesn't know how offensive/idiotic it is.


Trust me they don't know. It's ignorance not prejudice.

After all, when you re prejudiced and you know that it will stain your name, you do the smart thing and shut up.

#11 SeoulSoxFan


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Posted 24 August 2008 - 12:56 AM

Trust me they don't know. It's ignorance not prejudice.

After all, when you re prejudiced and you know that it will stain your name, you do the smart thing and shut up.



Well put. You know I'm not shocked at all about the level of ignorance, but it's the overt public display:

http://www.telegraph...ing-racism.html

Pretty damning article on the general lack of acceptance on accusations of racism for some (can't be all, really) Spanish fans.

#12 Nick Kaufman


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Posted 24 August 2008 - 01:14 AM

Well put. You know I'm not shocked at all about the level of ignorance, but it's the overt public display:

http://www.telegraph...ing-racism.html

Pretty damning article on the general lack of acceptance on accusations of racism for some (can't be all, really) Spanish fans.


Well... I don't know... I think the Spanish wanted to make innocent fun of some facial characteristic which in their view doesn't carry any of the stereotypes associated with it. And that's part of the problem. Here in the multi-cultural society like the US there has been both an extensive history of racism with very real implications in the political, economic and social structure of society; said history has led to among other things an extensive conversation about the significance language carries.

The European South doesn't carry neither the history of institutional racism nor the subsequent conversation. That's why I think it's tough for the Spaniards to understand and adjust.

IMHO, intent matters, so while I understand the discomfort, I wouldn't read too much into it. And I am sure if you visited Spain, you wouldn't face any problems on your daily interactions. There just isn't any kind of racism you would encounter in other places; ironically, I am sure you ll find people being proud in their lack of racism.

As far as examples of racism in football grounds is concerned, ok, but it's a different phenomenon and European fans are notorious for not doing favors to anyone as long as they can gain an edge for their team... For example, for some unknown reason, most refs mothers who make unpopular decisions for the home fans are well known whores, did you know that? :unsure:

Edited by Nick Kaufman, 24 August 2008 - 01:16 AM.


#13 SeoulSoxFan


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Posted 24 August 2008 - 01:22 AM

Well... I don't know... I think the Spanish wanted to make innocent fun of some facial characteristic which in their view doesn't carry any of the stereotypes associated with it. And that's part of the problem. Here in the multi-cultural society like the US there has been both an extensive history of racism with very real implications in the political, economic and social structure of society; said history has led to among other things an extensive conversation about the significance language carries.

The European South doesn't carry neither the history of institutional racism nor the subsequent conversation. That's why I think it's tough for the Spaniards to understand and adjust.

IMHO, intent matters, so while I understand the discomfort, I wouldn't read too much into it. And I am sure if you visited Spain, you wouldn't face any problems on your daily interactions. There just isn't any kind of racism you would encounter in other places; ironically, I am sure you ll find people being proud in their lack of racism.

As far as examples of racism in football grounds is concerned, ok, but it's a different phenomenon and European fans are notorious for not doing favors to anyone as long as they can gain an edge...


Thanks NK - in fact I have been to Spain, albeit briefly in early 90's while backpacking around Europe as a Junior in college, and the people were warm, friendly, curious, and generally more welcoming than any other country (except maybe Greece). Just the fact that they sang EVERYWHERE in public reminded me of Koreans.

Yeah, all said and done I'll take these overt gestures over any real deep-rooted covert racism anytime of the day.

Edit: lol in my serious reply mode I missed the whorish ref moms joke - must admit Koreans and Japanese pretty much pull out all the stops too if you follow their game threads during their head-to-head matches. Certain acts involving baseball bats and...eh nm :unsure:

Edited by SeoulSoxFan, 24 August 2008 - 01:25 AM.


#14 kenneycb


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Posted 24 August 2008 - 01:24 AM

This alleged racism isn't just limited to it's fans as seen through the Aragones incident regarding Henry in which he said:

"Tell that negro de mierda (shitty black) that you are much better than him. Don't hold back, tell him. Tell him from me. You have to believe in yourself, you're better than that negro de mierda."

The best part was the response from Marcos Senna, a black Spanish player:

"He is not racist. AragonÚs is a spectacular person. Donato, who is black, is one of his best friends. Maybe something escaped, a word, and he was misinterpreted. [But] I see the way he treats me and how he likes me."


Nothing like the "He has a black friend" retort.

#15 Nick Kaufman


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Posted 24 August 2008 - 01:31 AM

Nothing like the "He has a black friend" retort.


Which came by the black friend though.

#16 LateRally

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Posted 24 August 2008 - 02:02 AM

Well... I don't know... I think the Spanish wanted to make innocent fun of some facial characteristic which in their view doesn't carry any of the stereotypes associated with it. And that's part of the problem. Here in the multi-cultural society like the US there has been both an extensive history of racism with very real implications in the political, economic and social structure of society; said history has led to among other things an extensive conversation about the significance language carries.

The European South doesn't carry neither the history of institutional racism nor the subsequent conversation. That's why I think it's tough for the Spaniards to understand and adjust.

IMHO, intent matters, so while I understand the discomfort, I wouldn't read too much into it. And I am sure if you visited Spain, you wouldn't face any problems on your daily interactions. There just isn't any kind of racism you would encounter in other places; ironically, I am sure you ll find people being proud in their lack of racism.

I would agree with this, albeit based on my limited personal experience. One of my best friends married a girl from the sticks of Spain, a small coastal town just south of the border with Portugal. My wife and I went over for the wedding, and spent 2 weeks all over southern Spain, including a chunk of time in Huelva. We met nothing but really friendly, open-minded, and gracious people (a pretty big contrast from my travels in the sticks of this country, but that's a story for another time).

Anyway as I said in the other thread on this topic, it appears this was more a playful gesture to acknowledge the long-standing relationship the hoops team has with a big Chinese shoe company, at least for the original picture. And besides I wouldn't take a Brit rag's angle on this issue at straight face value anyway.

#17 bsartist618

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Posted 24 August 2008 - 02:41 AM

Guy in my office put it this way: if some Asians came here and propped their eyes open with their fingers to mimic our western eyes, would any of us be offended?

I wouldn't care, especially if it was done playfully. Obviously, those pictures would not go over well here in the US, but who's to say that's even remotely offensive in China?

#18 SeoulSoxFan


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Posted 26 August 2008 - 04:45 AM

Guy in my office put it this way: if some Asians came here and propped their eyes open with their fingers to mimic our western eyes, would any of us be offended?

I wouldn't care, especially if it was done playfully. Obviously, those pictures would not go over well here in the US, but who's to say that's even remotely offensive in China?



Not most people in China, per MSNBC article: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26193825/.

That actually makes a lot of sense, as most kids in US won't go up to another kid and make their eyes bigger to make fun of them ("you ALL have big eyes!"). By the same token, no Chinese kid will go up to another Chinese kid and use that as a gesture to make fun of them.

As the article says, the problem is pretty cut-and-dry for most, if not all Asian-Americans here in the US. It's an offensive gesture, one that we all had an experience growing up, and a few that got themselves into their share of fights.

#19 bsartist618

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 09:34 AM

"This kind of insult doesn't exist in mainland China. It's not a problem here," he said. "But if it's problem [in the U.S.]it's reasonable to have an apology for [Chinese Americans]."


"They're all very big guys doing something silly and making a fool of themselves. They're trying to connect with the Chinese people" Li Xiu Xia said. "Slanted eyes are considered very beautiful in China. So I think it's a compliment, not an insult."


I think that article does more to prove my point than disprove it. Obviously, it is considered an insult to Chinese as a minority in other countries, but in actual mainland China it has no meaning.

It would be nice for people to be careful not to offend anyone anywhere in the world. But Spain has no real history of using the gesture as an insult (unlike in the US) and China has no knowledge of the gesture at all, so I think it is a bit unreasonable to expect the world to be thoroughly aware of US political correctness standards.

edit: speeling and such

Edited by bsartist618, 26 August 2008 - 09:51 AM.


#20 bakahump

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 10:41 AM

Certainly doesn't make it right but racism is everywhere.

Many S Koreans and Japanese where extremely rude to friends and I during my 3 years there. Others where extremely nice.

SKorea was generally regarded as the most rude in my circle of acquaintances. Not sure why...

We where often derisively called "GI Joe" "Gai Jin" (Coco Jin for my black friends) and "John Wayne". We where excluded from being welcome or served in several establishments. Yelled at for even entering. And this while accompanied by my best friends future wife who was Japanese.

I considered myself a conscientious guest in their country even if I was part of a foreign military. So I don't think it was a case of being an ugly American....at least not individually.

Some of us definitely brought it on ourselves. A group of Marines raping a 12 yo girl comes to mind...

A strange and educational experience overall. Walk a mile in someones shoes and all.