71 replies to this topic

[BigMike]

Does Nadia Komenich come into the discussion here.

Not as many medals as Phelps for sure, but also not as many events available. She completely dominated and revolutionized her sport on a level no one before or since had attained

[LateRally]

Here's an article that's apropos of the topic. No mention of Heiden.

Link

Carl Lewis, the American track and field star of the 1980s and 1990s, said, "The reality is, congratulations."

Soviet-era gymnast Larisa Latynina, in a note, wrote to say, "You have shattered all sort of records with truly inspiring Olympic character."

And Mark Spitz, the American swimmer whose 1972 mark of seven gold medals in one Olympics Michael Phelps could equal Saturday and could break Sunday, said, "When I look at Michael and I think of the lore of what he has done over the last four years -- it's more remarkable than myself."

...

Lewis, now 47, said in a telephone interview of his nine golds, "I did mine last century. Michael is taking off this new century. He's a great leader for the Olympic movement. I know him personally, I think he's a great kid and I wish him congratulations."

Asked if he believed Phelps ought now to be considered the greatest Olympic athlete of all time or if he -- or someone else -- deserves that title, Lewis said, "I don't really believe that exists. Everybody brought something to the table.

"I say, wow, we have somebody else who's amazing. Let's just tune in -- that's where I am."

[reggiecleveland]

"When I look at Michael and I think of the lore of what he has done over the last four years -- it's more remarkable than myself."

Mark went to the NY Yankee Owner school of grammar

[Kremlin Watcher]

Here's an interesting candidate: Rebecca Romero, UK

Athens 2004: rowing - quadruple sculls - silver medal

Beijing 2008: track cycling - individual pursuit - gold medal

Two totally different sports. And she looks just about the complete opposite of an athlete. Quite a story. Perhaps not the greatest of all time, but let's see Michael Phelps hop on a bike or grab a set of oars.

[Hendu's Gait]

Here's an interesting candidate: Rebecca Romero, UK

Athens 2004: rowing - quadruple sculls - silver medal

Beijing 2008: track cycling - individual pursuit - gold medal

Two totally different sports. And she looks just about the complete opposite of an athlete. Quite a story. Perhaps not the greatest of all time, but let's see Michael Phelps hop on a bike or grab a set of oars.

Imagine Jordan in team handball or volleyball or in any of the jumping events. That would be a sight to see.

[reggiecleveland]

Clara Hughes from Canada won:
Bronze cycling road race in Atlanta 1996
Bronze 2002 Salt Lake 5000m Speedskating
Gold 2006 Turin Speedskating 5000m
Silver 2006 Turin Speedskating Team Pursuit

4 medals 1 summer three winter.

[Fred not Lynn]

Clara Hughes from Canada won:
Bronze cycling road race in Atlanta 1996
Bronze 2002 Salt Lake 5000m Speedskating
Gold 2006 Turin Speedskating 5000m
Silver 2006 Turin Speedskating Team Pursuit

4 medals 1 summer three winter.

Both of the above are really examples of the same engine powering a different machine - rowing, by the way, might look to be an upper body sport, but it isn't, the power pushing those boats along comes straight from the ass and thighs - with some help from the back.

You also have Crista Rothenburger (Luding) winning speed skating and track cycling medals in 1988...but seeing as she was a GDR athlete, I'm going to just say those ones just don't count.

[Cuzittt]

Sheila Taormina

OK, from a medals standpoint... not so good. Only one medal, a gold in the 4x200 relay in 1996.

However, she went from swimming to a World Champion Triathlete, competing in 2000 (6th) and 2004 (23rd).

This year she became the first female to compete in the Olympics in three different disciplines, competing in the Modern Pentathlon (19th... Fencing Killed her).

So... she went from Swimming... to Swimming/Biking/Running to Shooting/Fencing/Horse Jumping/Swimming/Cross-Country. I like how she continues to add things to her program.

[JimRiceHOFer]

The discussion of Greatest Olympian of All Time has to include the following athletes. The real discussion is how do you rank athletes capable of competing in many multiple events/games (Michael Phelps & Carl Lewis) vs. ones that only competed in one event (Al Oerter) or one olympic games (Jim Thorpe & Jesse Owens)

Michael Phelps - won 16 olympic medals (14 gold, 2 bronze).

Usain Bolt - 3 olympic medals (3 gold). All won in world record times.

Carl Lewis - won 10 Olympic Medals (9 gold, won the long jump in 4 straight olympic games (1984, 1988, 1992, 1996), was also on the 1980 team that did not compete in Moscow. Only athlete to ever repeat as gold medalist in the 100 m and the long jump.

Eric Heiden - won 5 olympic medals (5 gold). Won all 5 speedskating events in one games (500, 1000, 1500, 5000, 10000)

Emil Zatopek - won 5 olympic medals (4 gold, one silver). Won all 3 long distance races in one games (5000, 10,000, and the Marathon) That marathon was also the 1st time he had ever run the distance.

Jim Thorpe - won 2 olympic medals (2 gold). Won the gold medal in the Pentathlon (5 events) and the Decathlon (10 events) in the the 1912 Olympic Games. Also finshed 4th in the open high jump and 7th in the open long jump competitions. Completed 17 events in 5 days.

Mark Spitz - won 12 olympic medals (9 gold, 1 silver, 1 bronze). Won 7 gold medals in one olympics, all in world record times.

Larissa Latynina - won 18 olympic medals in gymnastics (nine gold medals, five silver and four bronze) in 3 Olympics - 1956, 1960, 1964.

Paavo Nurmi - won 12 olympic medals (9 gold and 3 silver) in 3 olympic games - 1920, 1924, 1928. Won 5 gold medals in 5 events in 1924.

Lasse Viren - won 4 olympic medals (4 gold). Won the impressive double of the 5,000m and 10,000m distance races in successive olympics 1972 and 1976.

Jesse Owens - won 4 olympic medals (4 gold). Won the 100, 200, Long Jump and 4x100 m relay at the 1936 Berlin Olympics.

Edwin Moses - 3 olympic medals (2 gold, 1 bronze). Won the gold medal in the 400 m hurdles in 1976, 1984 and the bronze in 1988. Was excluded from competing in the 1980 olympics by the US boycott. Would have won the gold medal in 1980 had he been able to compete.

Al Oerter - 4 olympic medals (4 gold). Won the discus in 4 consecutive olympic games - 1956, 1960, 1964, 1968.

Michael Johnson - 4 olympic medals (4 gold) Won gold medals in 3 diff. olympics - 1992, 1996, 2000. Only athlete to ever repeat as gold medalist in the 400m.

Teofilo Stevenson - 3 olympic medals (3 gold). Won the Olympic Heavyweight boxing gold medal in 3 successive olympics - 1972, 1976, 1980. Missed a chance for a 4th due to the boycott of the 1984 Los Angeles Olympics.

Edited by JimRiceHOFer, 22 August 2008 - 11:59 AM.

[mscaviy]

That is precisely why. If your goal is to game the system to win the most golds or most medals you go after the.....sports that few other countries bother to invest in.

That's what China has done in these Olympics, they will get a ton of medals in sports like shooting, ping pong, badminton, weight lifting, etc.

Like Baseball, Softball, Basketball, Volleyball, Beach Volleyball. It's not just China that play obscure sports no-one else in the world plays.

[mscaviy]

Can I put forward Ben Ainslie into the mix. British sailor who secured Gold Medals in Beijing, Athens, Sydney and a silver in Atlanta.

Bearing in mind that to win a gold in sailing, one has to be highly consistent throughout seven of eight regatta races and then perform in the make or break medal race, I think it's a remarkable effort to perform at this level of consistency through four Olympics.

He's not going to get the attention of a Phelps, Lewis, Zatapek etc but an outstanding performance all the same.

With Sir Stephen Redgrave, Ben Ainslie and our world beating cyclists, Great Britain really is the home of the 'sitting down' sports. Mmmm, not sure whether that's something to be proud of or not.

[BGrif21125]

The discussion of Greatest Olympian of All Time has to include the following athletes.

Teofilo Stevenson - 3 olympic medals (3 gold). Won the Olympic Heavyweight boxing gold medal in 3 successive olympics - 1972, 1976, 1980. Missed a chance for a 4th due to the boycott of the 1984 Los Angeles Olympics.

I would take Stevenson off the list, and here's why:

Those other athletes you mentioned, they compete(d) in sports where the Olympics represent the holy grail or Super Bowl of that sport. So when they compete at the Olympics, they're competing against the best of the best, and therefore, when they win gold, they're proving themselves to be the best in the world at what they do.

For example, when Carl Lewis competed, he was going up against the very best sprinters/long jumpers in the world, and beating them. When Phelps was competing these past 2 weeks, he was going up against the very best swimmers in the entire world. Same goes for the other people on the list in their respective sports/events.

Stevenson... he was of legit amateur age in 1972 at 20 years old. But after that, he was a grown man, but he wasn't competing against the best adult boxers in the world. He was a guy who should've been fighting professionally who was instead fighting amateurs. So when he won in '76 or '80 (or if he had the chance to win in '84), he wasn't beating his true contemporaries. His contemporaries were guys like Holmes, Norton and Foreman, and they weren't at the Olympics. I'm not saying it's Stevenson's fault, but it has to significantly diminsh his accomplishments compared to these other people.

Felix Savon (also from Cuba) won 3 golds in a row between 1992 and 2000, because he had the same advantages.

[gaelgirl]

Like Baseball, Softball, Basketball, Volleyball, Beach Volleyball. It's not just China that play obscure sports no-one else in the world plays.

I will concede softball, maybe even beach volleyball, but baseball, basketball and volleyball aren't exactly obscure sports. Baseball is huge on several continents. Basketball is popular in many parts of the world. Volleyball seems to attract a diverse set of teams, though I don't follow it all that closely. No, none of them are as popular as soccer/football, but I would hardly call them obscure.

[LateRally]

Here's a guy who tried to take a quantitative approach to ranking all-time Olympians, ONLY for track & field however. You earn points all the way to 8th place, so this system primarily rewards longevity and/or competing in many different events. Adjustments such as more heavily weighting gold-medal finishes and awarding only half the points for relay/team events lend more credibility.

Link

The conclusion is that the top T&F Olympian of all time is an American by the name of Raymond Ewry (never heard of him), who was apparently the master of various jumping events from a standing start. Among athletes who competed in non-discontinued events, the top 3 are Paavo Nurmi, Carl Lewis, and Ville Ritola.

[Hendu's Gait]

No nomination for Johann Olav Koss? 4 Golds 1 Silver 1 Save of the World. (C'mon, who didn't shed a tear watching that story?)

[Fred not Lynn]

No nomination for Johann Olav Koss? 4 Golds 1 Silver 1 Save of the World. (C'mon, who didn't shed a tear watching that story?)

Even Koss genuflects to Heiden, no matter how many people he saves. That said, what story do you speak of? I mean, I know his "story", but it sounds like there was something on TV...

[Hendu's Gait]

Even Koss genuflects to Heiden, no matter how many people he saves. That said, what story do you speak of? I mean, I know his "story", but it sounds like there was something on TV...

http://www.righttoplay.com/index.htm

[Fred not Lynn]

http://www.righttoplay.com/index.htm

Oh, yeah -- I know all about Right to Play. It's my charity of choice whenever the subject arises...I thought maybe there was something more that you saw.

[jon abbey]

The discussion of Greatest Olympian of All Time has to include the following athletes. The real discussion is how do you rank athletes capable of competing in many multiple events/games (Michael Phelps & Carl Lewis) vs. ones that only competed in one event (Al Oerter) or one olympic games (Jim Thorpe & Jesse Owens)

Michael Phelps - won 16 olympic medals (14 gold, 2 bronze).

Usain Bolt - 3 olympic medals (3 gold). All won in world record times.

Carl Lewis - won 10 Olympic Medals (9 gold, won the long jump in 4 straight olympic games (1984, 1988, 1992, 1996), was also on the 1980 team that did not compete in Moscow. Only athlete to ever repeat as gold medalist in the 100 m and the long jump.

Eric Heiden - won 5 olympic medals (5 gold). Won all 5 speedskating events in one games (500, 1000, 1500, 5000, 10000)

Emil Zatopek - won 5 olympic medals (4 gold, one silver). Won all 3 long distance races in one games (5000, 10,000, and the Marathon) That marathon was also the 1st time he had ever run the distance.

Jim Thorpe - won 2 olympic medals (2 gold). Won the gold medal in the Pentathlon (5 events) and the Decathlon (10 events) in the the 1912 Olympic Games. Also finshed 4th in the open high jump and 7th in the open long jump competitions. Completed 17 events in 5 days.

Mark Spitz - won 12 olympic medals (9 gold, 1 silver, 1 bronze). Won 7 gold medals in one olympics, all in world record times.

Larissa Latynina - won 18 olympic medals in gymnastics (nine gold medals, five silver and four bronze) in 3 Olympics - 1956, 1960, 1964.

Paavo Nurmi - won 12 olympic medals (9 gold and 3 silver) in 3 olympic games - 1920, 1924, 1928. Won 5 gold medals in 5 events in 1924.

Lasse Viren - won 4 olympic medals (4 gold). Won the impressive double of the 5,000m and 10,000m distance races in successive olympics 1972 and 1976.

Jesse Owens - won 4 olympic medals (4 gold). Won the 100, 200, Long Jump and 4x100 m relay at the 1936 Berlin Olympics.

Edwin Moses - 3 olympic medals (2 gold, 1 bronze). Won the gold medal in the 400 m hurdles in 1976, 1984 and the bronze in 1988. Was excluded from competing in the 1980 olympics by the US boycott. Would have won the gold medal in 1980 had he been able to compete.

Al Oerter - 4 olympic medals (4 gold). Won the discus in 4 consecutive olympic games - 1956, 1960, 1964, 1968.

Michael Johnson - 4 olympic medals (4 gold) Won gold medals in 3 diff. olympics - 1992, 1996, 2000. Only athlete to ever repeat as gold medalist in the 400m.

Teofilo Stevenson - 3 olympic medals (3 gold). Won the Olympic Heavyweight boxing gold medal in 3 successive olympics - 1972, 1976, 1980. Missed a chance for a 4th due to the boycott of the 1984 Los Angeles Olympics.

late to the conversation here, but with a good reason, I worked sixteen straight overnights for NBC as a researcher for CNBC and USA coverage...

the above list covers most of the main candidates. another is Alexander Karelin, the superheavyweight wrestler who won gold in 1988, 1992 and 1996 before Rulon Gardner somehow beat him for gold in Sydney. he was undefeated in international competition from 1987 until 2000, and unscored on for the last seven years of that streak before the Gardner miracle.

also, most athletes with less than three Games shouldn't be under serious consideration IMO (which is why I wouldn't put Phelps first yet), but Abebe Bikila deserves at least a honorable mention somewhere down the list:

"In Rome, 1960, Ethiopian marathoner Abebe Bikila, running barefoot, became the first black African to take home a gold medal. Four years later in 1964, Abebea was the first man to successfully defend the marathon title. This time less than six weeks after having his appendix removed. He only wore shoes for the second victory."

and also, Bob Mathias and Daley Thompson for winning consecutive decathlons.

FWIW, in 1996, I helped William Oscar Johnson put together a list of Top 10 Alltime Olympic Athletes for Time International (which annoyingly I can't find online anywhere). we went with Paavo Nurmi for first, and bumped Carl Lewis up to second when he won his fourth straight long jump. right now, I'd say Phelps is around 5-10 somewhere, but just a few more golds in London would give him a strong case for #1.

[Cuzittt]

also, most athletes with less than three Games shouldn't be under serious consideration IMO (which is why I wouldn't put Phelps first yet),

Phelps was in Sydney (as a 15 year old)... finishing 5th in the 200m Butterfly.

[jon abbey]

right, I meant golds in at least three straight Games. the Sydney cameo will help his resume a touch if he adds to it in London, though, IMO.

[yhinny]

The correct answer is #1 - Bob Beamon (it doesn't matter that it was at altitude or that he has only one medal -- it was the greatest olympic performance of all time, hands down, so far beyond human comprehension at the time, that he would have to be considered the greatest olympian (i.e, the person whose results were more magnificent than anyone before or since)- (Usain Bolt's double could become the #2 performance, if only we can satisfy ourselves that there was no PED involvement, but his competition had been somewhat hobbled, so I can't say that he is in the top ten greatest olympians - ; #2 (Frances Morgan) Daley Thompson; #3 - a tie between Laase Viren and Paavo Nurmi; #5 a tie between Al Oerter and Sir Steve Redgrave; #7 - Larissa Latynina. If you can't immediately identify the last two -- without resorting to Wikipedia or a Google search -- you really have no your right to participate in the argument/discussion. #8 a tie between Mark Spitz and Eric Heiden. Phelps is a great swimmer, but certainly no higher than #10 to anyone with historical perspective