478 replies to this topic

[DukeSox]

I actually dislike your strategy quite a bit. Putting Hansbrough on the line that much is not very effective, IMO. He hits his free throws. I would want, if I were a team like Duke, to get into a three point shooting contest for a few runs a half and then have it in the 2-4 point range one way or the other with 2:00 to go in the game. At that point, Coach K is a far, far better coach than Williams and Duke can use an advantage. The things is though, will Carolina play 'out of its game' at this point or are they too experienced now to let that happen?

Oh, I'm not saying put him on the line -- I'm just saying play him tough and don't give up tons of easy layups. If he ends up on the line, so be it -- but we won't have to worry about 1 player fouling out since we have a few that can play on him.

Additionally, if some of our skinny white dudes start nailing 3's, I can see the carolina players trying to match it, just from a pride/one-up perspective. That would play to Duke's advantage.

I think Duke is ranked way too high anyway right now.

Tonight should be an outstanding test -- at Purdue.

Edited by DukeSox, 02 December 2008 - 11:08 AM.

[UNCSoxFan5]

Zoubek and Lance Thomas, with a little Singler thrown in, have 15 fouls to through at Hans in an (attempt) to slow him down.

Nolan Smith minimizing turnovers. Scheyer and Singler shooting well. Henderson doing everything all over the court.

These teams are (basically) the same teams that played each other last year.

First game, at UNC, Duke won 89-78.
Second game, at Duke, UNC won 76-68.

They'll be competitive games.

In the first game, which Duke won last year, UNC was without Lawson and Duke also hit 45% of their 3's. While UNC-Duke is always competitive, I don't think you can basically say these are the same teams.

[DukeSox]

I was referring to the normal yearly turnover at the top of the rosters of most college teams -- i.e., the best players either graduating or leaving.

That didn't happen with these two teams. Of course, there are differences in how much players have "improved" and the impact of freshmen. The "stars" of both teams are the same.

[Drocca]

I agree with DukeSox and think it's foolish to think these two(maybe three) games this year won't be highly competitive. I also think Duke is ranked about right, but I have a lot of faith in Henderson and respect the shit out of Coach K and think this is a down year for the upper elite squads. Tonight should be fun.

[UNCSoxFan5]

I was referring to the normal yearly turnover at the top of the rosters of most college teams -- i.e., the best players either graduating or leaving.

That didn't happen with these two teams. Of course, there are differences in how much players have "improved" and the impact of freshmen. The "stars" of both teams are the same.

No, I understand that. I just think were a better team that was out there when you guys beat us at the Smith Center last Feb.

[DukeSox]

I just think were a better team that was out there when you guys beat us at the Smith Center last Feb.

And so are we.

[RedOctober3829]

Hansbrough doubtful for tomorrow's game at Michigan State due to soreness in his shin per ESPN.

[DukeSox]

Tonight should be fun.

Solid win. Tough loss for Miami after that BS ejection.

[deythur]

Solid win. Tough loss for Miami after that BS ejection.

Great win for Duke yesterday. Played a top ranked team in their building and smacked them around. Score was closer than the game was.

As far as Duke v NC, i think Lawson is the key. Fast guards are a tough matchup for Duke. Tyler will get his inside and put Zoubek in early foul trouble. Luckily there are bodies on the bench this year. A point was made during the game last night about Duke not relying on the 3 as much as in the past, this is excellent for Duke. Shooters will go cold but its easier to recover or survive if your not counting on the 3 to keep you in games.

I think NC is the best team in the country but I still cant wait to play them, close as always and hopefully a split.

Dukesox, how about a Duke thread? If you dont start one soon, I will.

[DukeSox]

Dukesox, how about a Duke thread? If you dont start one soon, I will.

Go for it -- but with "Duke" in the title, small jealous people drop in, talk some random trash, then never come back. And then it gets locked. This thread could/should be retitled "ACC ball."

Edited by DukeSox, 03 December 2008 - 06:28 PM.

[deythur]

Go for it -- but with "Duke" in the title, small jealous people drop in, talk some random trash, then never come back. And then it gets locked. This thread could/should be retitled "ACC ball."

I hear ya, we really should break out though. I will start one before the next game. We need to ignore the haters and just talk Duke.

[Drocca]

I hear ya, we really should break out though. I will start one before the next game. We need to ignore the haters and just talk Duke.

I strongly disagree. I'm a Carolina fan that can talk Duke. We've kept this discussion very civil and I think it makes this little thread on the board better because:

1. The discussion is better

2. Individually, the threads would have little action and the programs are, and always will be linked.

3. It makes it more fun.

I'll ask again that a Dope/Mod please change the title to "2008-2009 Carolina and Duke Basketball"

I mean, honestly, you sound a little young/immature to be using the term "haters". The standards on this site are a little higher than that and I think it'd be awesome if you joined the discussion.

[deythur]

I strongly disagree. I'm a Carolina fan that can talk Duke. We've kept this discussion very civil and I think it makes this little thread on the board better because:

1. The discussion is better

2. Individually, the threads would have little action and the programs are, and always will be linked.

3. It makes it more fun.

I'll ask again that a Dope/Mod please change the title to "2008-2009 Carolina and Duke Basketball"

I mean, honestly, you sound a little young/immature to be using the term "haters". The standards on this site are a little higher than that and I think it'd be awesome if you joined the discussion.

Im fine with this thread. A title change would be nice to include Duke or ACC. Im not young or immature. Ive been around this board long enough and Dukesox is right about how any discussion about Duke usually turns into one liners from people who dont care about SOSH. Its the same on any board when it comes to Duke. They elicit hate, thats just the way it is, its part of why i like them so much. To call those people "haters" i dont think is unreasonable.

[Drocca]

Im fine with this thread. A title change would be nice to include Duke or ACC. Im not young or immature. Ive been around this board long enough and Dukesox is right about how any discussion about Duke usually turns into one liners from people who dont care about SOSH. Its the same on any board when it comes to Duke. They elicit hate, thats just the way it is, its part of why i like them so much. To call those people "haters" i dont think is unreasonable.

Fair enough. Sorry I branded you as something you're clearly not. The curse of anonymity is that by not knowing where everyone is coming from at all times, we subscribe our own linguistic prejudices to others.

Haters is a reasonable term and Carolina certainly has their share, but I want to elevate the discussion and actually talk basketball and rivalry and the microcosmic world of Durham/Chapel Hill is the perfect storm for this.

Last night, Duke showed that they have improved dramatically from last year. I read an Andy Katz article today where he cites experience and while that's true, I really think that's sort of a lazy way to categorize it if you stop there. To me, the team has players that not only know their role, which does tie into experience, but have been put in the best possible role to succeed, and that, to me, is coaching. Add in that Singler is a seriously good player and Henderson is, at least in my mind, a budding superstar, and this team is no effing joke. Then again, the Big 10 can sometimes be fool's gold. They play tough defense and don't typically have the athletes or the offense to keep up with the ACC, and that's usually top to bottom.

I'm excited for tonight, not worried at all which could be a bad thing and I may hate that sentence in two hours. I'm going to be watching Lawson almost religiously, because I've been so excited about the Freshmen that I feel like I'm missing the real game changer.

Edited by Drocca, 03 December 2008 - 09:05 PM.

[UNCSoxFan5]

Hansbrough playing tonight. Go Heels

[RedOctober3829]

I hate courts that are above the benches. It looks so odd. I thought the place was supposed to be sold out up to 70,000 people but it looks half full.

[DukeSox]

To me, the team has players that not only know their role, which does tie into experience, but have been put in the best possible role to succeed, and that, to me, is coaching.

Agreed. The whole Paulus thing -- taking a backseat after starting for 3 years, is pretty incredible. When he and Nolan Smith were on the court last night, there was no animosity displayed at all -- both were congratulating each other on plays. That type of teamwork creates a lot of confidence, which Singler cited last night after the game. They don't have the most talent in the country, but they have a chance to play together as a team, with each player doing his part, as well as anyone.

[Drocca]

So far, I'm really impressed with Michigan State. Played Hansbrough really well by smothering the inside for the first part of the first half. That led to some nice shooting on the outside, but you have to pick your poison. But the key for any team is to not turn the ball over. Every turnover turns into a race down the court and Carolina scores or gets to the line every time. Michigan State hasn't done a great job of taking care of the basketball or an awful job either but they're shooting very well. A good combination. Should be an interesting game the rest of the way.

Edited by Drocca, 03 December 2008 - 10:01 PM.

[RedOctober3829]

So far, I'm really impressed with Michigan State. Played Hansbrough really well by smothering the inside for the first part of the first half. That led to some nice shooting on the outside, but you have to pick your poison. But the key for any team is to not turn the ball over. Every turnover turns into a race down the court and Carolina scores or gets to the line every time. Michigan State hasn't done a great job of taking care of the basketball or an awful job either but they're shooting very well. A good combination. Should be an interesting game the rest of the way.

This will be a 20-25 point game by the end. UNC is head and shoulders above everyone in the country.

[Drocca]

And right after I typed that they went into that other gear, a gear that 05' didn't even have and no one in the country has. They'll lose games and they might not win it all and may not even be the best team in college basketball (although that seems like a stretch), but I do not think there is another team that can play as well as they can when they are playing their best.

[CzarAlexander]

And right after I typed that they went into that other gear, a gear that 05' didn't even have and no one in the country has. They'll lose games and they might not win it all and may not even be the best team in college basketball (although that seems like a stretch), but I do not think there is another team that can play as well as they can when they are playing their best.

10 minutes into the 2nd half and MSU has what, 6 points? And people are knocking this team for the defense?

Cue Billy Packer.

[Drocca]

10 minutes into the 2nd half and MSU has what, 6 points? And people are knocking this team for the defense?

Cue Billy Packer.

As I type it's 75-45 with 9:43 left against the 12 team on the road.

Soon, especially with the very weak December schedule, people will start to talk about the inevitable. I'm not looking forward to that. What I am looking forward to is watching this team play basketball all year long.

I'm not sure other teams can really get a gauge for how good/competitive they're going to be in their own conference by playing Carolina.

[CzarAlexander]

As I type it's 75-45 with 9:43 left against the 12 team on the road.

Soon, especially with the very weak December schedule, people will start to talk about the inevitable. I'm not looking forward to that. What I am looking forward to is watching this team play basketball all year long.

I'm not sure other teams can really get a gauge for how good/competitive they're going to be in their own conference by playing Carolina.

It's an open question whether Carolina will win more games than the Lions at Ford Field in 2008-09.

[shawnrbu]

What would the line be if UNC played the OKC Thunder on Saturday night at a neutral site?

[DLew On Roids]

It's an open question whether Carolina will win more games than the Lions at Ford Field in 2008-09.

ESPN just mentioned that UNC has more points at Ford Field this season than the Lions.

The big difference between this year's Carolina team and earlier top-ranked Williams teams (04-05, 07-08) is that they play with much more discipline at both ends of the court. Those other teams sometimes seemed to move faster on offense than their brains could keep up with. There were always forced passes, guys playing out of control, etc. The entire returning cast seems to have figured out how to play at full tilt without turning the ball over. That's what makes them look like an NBA team, and that's what makes them scary.

[deythur]

Impressive win for the Heels. To echo Dlew played well at both ends of the floor. What really impressed me the most was there transition game. Not just being fast but they get going so quick. The outlet passes are with a purpose and they get the ball over half court in the blink of an eye. This team is going to be tough to keep up with.

Ed Davis really impressed me and I think he will be a huge thorn against Duke. His length and athleticism will cause problems for a guy like Singler. Hes young but will grow up fast with this team, the kid is a beast.

[Clears Cleaver]

this team has a legitimate chance to be considered one of the best teams in history. I don't think there is a team that is within 10 points of these guys

[RedOctober3829]

This will be a 20-25 point game by the end. UNC is head and shoulders above everyone in the country.

So I was wrong. It was worse than I thought. Scary, scary, scary good. As Vitale said last night, their second 5 could be a top 25 team.

[DukeSox]

This UNC team is absolutely terrifying.

[UNCSoxFan5]

Simply Awesome. Can you imagine how good this team will be with Ginyard back and if we had a healthy Zeller. My goodness. Go Heels.

[WoburnDiaspora]

This UNC team is absolutely terrifying.

Duke has out performed where I thought they would be. I can't wait for the Duke-UNC games this year. It is going to be a battle of the titans.

I have been incredibly impressed with the Tarheels. Right now, they are clearly the best team in the country (though Duke can be seen in the rear view mirror "Objects may be closer then they appear". I am pretty sure the 'Heels could hang with, if not beat outright, several NBA teams.

[Drocca]

Duke has out performed where I thought they would be. I can't wait for the Duke-UNC games this year. It is going to be a battle of the titans.

I have been incredibly impressed with the Tarheels. Right now, they are clearly the best team in the country (though Duke can be seen in the rear view mirror "Objects may be closer then they appear". I am pretty sure the 'Heels could hang with, if not beat outright, several NBA teams.

The offensive and defensive schemes are WAY more complicated in the NBA. The NBA has better shooters, and WAY more length. Those are just a few of the 37 reasons that Carolina would lose by 40 if they were to play any NBA team.

[WoburnDiaspora]

The offensive and defensive schemes are WAY more complicated in the NBA. The NBA has better shooters, and WAY more length. Those are just a few of the 37 reasons that Carolina would lose by 40 if they were to play any NBA team.

Oh Fine... bring reality and rationality into my world. I'm all giddy after watching the 'Heels run through the competition like a train through a Yugo and you bring me back down..

Thanks Drocca, thanks a lot

Edited by WoburnDiaspora, 04 December 2008 - 11:41 AM.

[CzarAlexander]

Duke has out performed where I thought they would be. I can't wait for the Duke-UNC games this year. It is going to be a battle of the titans.

I have been incredibly impressed with the Tarheels. Right now, they are clearly the best team in the country (though Duke can be seen in the rear view mirror "Objects may be closer then they appear". I am pretty sure the 'Heels could hang with, if not beat outright, several NBA teams.

I think that it is too early to opine about Duke. At this point last year, they blew a stout Wisconsin team out of Cameron by getting up and down the court and moving the ball precisely around the perimeter for good shots. By the end of the season (starting with the game at the Joel against Wake), they looked like a completely different team. And it showed by their performance in the ACC and NCAA tournaments.

In other words, until Duke can break their current spring malaise, I'm not going to put too much stock in their early season performances because they have not been probative of future performances.

[deythur]

I think your post has some valid points but the line about spring malaise should be directed solely at the past 3 years. I know its what you meant so im not sure why i brought it up. In the past their early season performance was a good indicator of their future since they were consistently going deep in the tourney. The past few years failures i think can be attributed to young players especially freshman hitting a wall, this stemmed from playing a lot of high pressure games due to a lack of depth or injuries. The freshman this year dont seem to be getting as much playing time, or at least arent being relied on as heavily. Hopefully this helps them avoid hitting that wall.

Drocca made a great point a few posts back about the Big 10 being fools gold, as they tend to play a slower game and these ACC teams seem to be more athletic and are able to run them out of the gym. While it isnt true for all ACC/Big 10 matchups, i dont think it really provides a great example of where teams stand overall.

[Drocca]

I also think that Duke's issue has been that with the lack of a real quality big man they've been very reliant on shooting. And shooters get cold. So, they've had some unlucky breaks in the tournament and ran into some very hot teams. When you add that inside presence, you can shake off a bad shooting night and a lights out performance by another team.

[DukeSox]

I also think that Duke's issue has been that with the lack of a real quality big man ... When you add that inside presence, you can shake off a bad shooting night and a lights out performance by another team.

I hear this a lot -- and I completely agree, it seems Duke has recently lacked a dominant "big man" inside. (Even though we had S. Williams only 3 short years ago -- for some reason he wasn't seen as a dominant offensive big man).

Perhaps it is because we are compared to UNC-CH, who obviously have Hansblahblah, but how many teams in the country actually have a "real quality big man" that can offensively offset both a bad shooting night and a lights out performance by the other team?

I mean -- I feel like there just aren't that many out there, period. Of course, with hundreds of teams, someone will point out a couple good ones (UConn, etc.). But people think that just because Duke is Duke, they should always get the best players, which should include a stud inside guy.

I just think there aren't that many to go around, especially once they actually start playing in college (since 'height = good' in high school, big man injuries, etc.)

Another part of this is that since Duke is usually really good, people try to find the one fault, the one way to beat them. The last couple years, since we haven't had a 6'10" stud in the middle, people have pointed to that. When UNC-CH sucked in the early 2000's, people didn't say "they don't have a dominant big man," they just said "UNC is not good right now." The last couple years, Duke just hasn't been that good, mainly because of youth + inexperience. The team that is playing now is the same team from the last couple years, basically -- they've just gained experience.

Edited by DukeSox, 04 December 2008 - 01:28 PM.

[Drocca]

I agree with everything you're saying top to bottom. My take wasn't the only reason, just a reason. And I promise that when UNC-CH struggled, I had plenty of "reasons" and "faults" that I obsessed over. It's just not as much fun to say "They aren't that good". Ok, well, they have a Hall of Fame coach and an all-world program so, why?

Experience and Big Men are the two biggest reasons, in my opinion. I also think they have lacked a real speedy quality point guard (which looks to be fixed this year). No team can recruit every player but Duke has a major advantage over most schools and, like Carolina, has the ability to pretty much pick out who they're after.

[RedOctober3829]

I hear this a lot -- and I completely agree, it seems Duke has recently lacked a dominant "big man" inside. (Even though we had S. Williams only 3 short years ago -- for some reason he wasn't seen as a dominant offensive big man).

What people mean is they lack the Greg Oden/Al Horford/Darrell Arthur type who can bang in the post, score, rebound, and block shots like Shelden Williams did. Ever since then, K has recruited the European-type big man who is skilled, shoot from the outside, but can go inside and play as well. But, those guys(Zoubec, Lance Thomas, Plumlee) haven't had the body type to be considered "dominant" big men like Hansbrough, Noah, Love, etc. They aren't strong enough to muscle people inside and create space for the shooters outside(although Singler has found his shot).

[Drocca]

What people mean is they lack the Greg Oden/Al Horford/Darrell Arthur type who can bang in the post, score, rebound, and block shots like Shelden Williams did. Ever since then, K has recruited the European-type big man who is skilled, shoot from the outside, but can go inside and play as well. But, those guys(Zoubec, Lance Thomas, Plumlee) haven't had the body type to be considered "dominant" big men like Hansbrough, Noah, Love, etc. They aren't strong enough to muscle people inside and create space for the shooters outside(although Singler has found his shot).

Deon Thompson certainly wasn't a Greg Oden/Al Horford/Darrell Arthur "type" and he's turned himself into exactly the kind of guy Duke needs. I was going to throw Ed Davis out there as well, but that's probably not fair since he was expected to be this kind of player. Regardless, you don't have to have a marquee 6'9 or 6'10 big guy. But 6'9/6'10 big guys who rebound and block some shots and fill up some space should not be as hard to find as Duke seems to be making it.

[Papi for Prez]

Wow, haven't been to this thread in a while. Glad to see its picked up steam with a couple of Dookies posting.

Before the season started I wrote that I hoped/expected Thompson to make some strides, but I never could have expected he'd come so far. He hits quick turnarounds, fifteen foot jumpers, and has been much more aggressiveness in going at the rim this year. In my opinion Thomspon has a more developed and fundamentally sound post-game than Hansbrough does, it's just that Hansbrough is able to bull people over and hit those weird shots where he creates contact and kind of just throws it up there (albeit with incredible touch). Also, defensively, he gives us a shot-blocking presence that Hansbrough lacks. Also, with another year of experience he finds himself in the right place more often. Simply couldn't be more pleased with Thompson this year and I think he could be as much of a problem for Duke as Hansbrough.

In regard to the Duke-UNC matchups this year, I feel that they will always be close no matter where the teams are, even to an irrational level. Obviously, duke is talented and I wouldn't be shocked if they took one of two. Of course, if we play anywhere near the top of our game I don't think Duke can stop us. The one thing that sucks big time is that this is my senior year, and would be a near-lock to get tix for the Duke game. Yet, the game is conveniently scheduled for spring break. Looks like I'll have to stick around a couple extra days, but not sure how many others will. I hope it doesn't kill the atmosphere.

[UNCSoxFan5]

Can't echo enough how cool attending Duke-UNC live is. By all means go. I got to go both my junior and senior years.

[DukeSox]

The one thing that sucks big time is that this is my senior year, and would be a near-lock to get tix for the Duke game. Yet, the game is conveniently scheduled for spring break. Looks like I'll have to stick around a couple extra days, but not sure how many others will. I hope it doesn't kill the atmosphere.

The 2nd game, when at Duke, has always been on the first weekend of spring break for us. people just leave for spring break on Sunday, instead of the end of the week.

but then again, dean dome? atmosphere?

[UNCSoxFan5]

Carolina at half against Oral Roberts. Hansbrough has a shot tonight to become the all-time UNC scorer, but most likely the next game against Evansville on Thursday.

[DukeSox]

Carolina at half against Oral Roberts. Hansbrough has a shot tonight to become the all-time UNC scorer, but most likely the next game against Evansville on Thursday.

Brutal early season schedule.

[UNCSoxFan5]

Yeah cause those tilts against Georgia Southern, Montana and Duquesne were tough.

[Drocca]

Brutal early season schedule.

When you take into account that every practice the first team has to play the second team you are correct. It has been brutal.

[UNCSoxFan5]

Hansbrough is now 10 points away for breaking Phil Ford's all time UNC scoring record.

[DukeSox]

When you take into account that every practice the first team has to play the second team you are correct. It has been brutal.

That's what people said about Duke in '05-'06 with JJ and Shel. F'ing LSU...

[Sille Skrub]

I'll ask again that a Dope/Mod please change the title to "2008-2009 Carolina and Duke Basketball"

Better late than never, I guess.