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Schill on Manny


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#101 Smiling Joe Hesketh


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Posted 06 August 2008 - 10:23 AM

To follow up with what Drocca said:

My question is this. How did a city so steeped in tradition and filled with blue collar people become so ok with a man sticking his middle finger up to anyone in the world that would look?


I guess my answer to that would be that Hall of Fame hitting talent forgives a lot of sins. To expand on your Varitek comments, there's no doubting what you say about him and his work ethic are true. At the same time I would think that working hard 100% of the time is a lot more widespread in baseball than having Hall of Fame talent and ability.

I have no doubt that by the end of his stay here Manny had become a royal pain in the ass. I have no doubt that his behavior was starting to affect the play of the team on the field; the Wed night game against the Angels proved that nicely. But I also have no doubt that he was cheered all his years here because he was an offensive force the likes of which we fans had not seen in a very, very long time.

None of us know Jason Varitek or Manny Ramirez as people. We only can see what they do on the field. It's not unreasonable to judge them by their on-the-field results, I would think; we are just fans and that is the only relationship any of us can have with the players.

#102 TheoShmeo


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Posted 06 August 2008 - 10:29 AM

How did a city so steeped in tradition and filled with blue collar people become so ok with a man sticking his middle finger up to anyone in the world that would look?

The question is a good one. And I appreciate that you would ask it in this public forum.

For what it's worth, I think the fact that Manny was one of the 25, was an integral part of another championship, put up the numbers he put up and was a very endearing figure when he wasn't being Immature Self-Absorbed Manny has a lot to do with it.

I also think that it took people a while to understand fully that Manny wasn't giving it his all because, frankly, we don't want to believe that and, perhaps more to the point, we can't always know what the reality is.

It's possible that Manny effectively threw that at bat against Mariano but it's also possible that Rivera painted the corners three times in a row and Manny was fooled. It's possible that Manny was not injured before those two games he recently missed but it's also possible that his knee was really bothering him. It's possible that Manny was jogging down the line out of defiance against Lackey but it's also possible that his knee was hurting and he didn't want to bust it down the line in a situation when the Sox were down by 6 runs and were unlikely to win anyway.

My suspicion and belief is not on Manny's side in any of those situations, but when we don't exactly know what the reality is, and we're dealing with a largely beloved player, I think it's understandable when the public doesn't universally conclude the worst.

Edited by TheoShmeo, 06 August 2008 - 10:36 AM.


#103 amarshal2

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 10:34 AM

It's not all about stats (or especially those stats specifically), but it is all about winning. You gave Jason Varitek as an example. He sounds like a great guy, I'm sure he's a wonderful human being and a rock in the clubhouse. But if he's signed to a two or three year extension after this season then the odds are he's going to hurt this team's chances of winning.

I'm not the guy in the clubhouse, I'm the guy on my couch. That comes with a shitload of limitations that I'm fully aware of. But, it also comes with a more objective view in some cases. (albeit without anywhere close to perfect information)


To some here it is about the stats. As I'm sure you understand, because the posters on this website have a "different" view than the general fan you meet around town, some take it upon themselves to be be rational to a fault so there is no room for fanboyism. How many times have you seen people make fun of others who like the "dirt dog" athletes who don't have that much talent but give it their all (ignoring the racial over-tones)? If we're going to be honest, Jason Varitek is not very good at hitting or throwing out base stealers anymore. However, he's still clearly overrated (see All-Star roster, talk to a "reddish colored" hat) and despite what G38 said above he's still loved by the majority of the fan base that isn't looking solely at the stat sheet. I don't know why we all can't just admit that he's not very good and leave it at that. He gets trashed around here and speaking only for myself, I think it's embarrassing. Don't confuse this with me getting excited when he's at the plate.

As for Manny, if you didn't know he was an idiot before this then you just weren't paying attention. However, he somehow showed more personality in the years he didn't even talk to the media than many players will show on their best days. He gave more baseball memories than most players will ever dream of giving. Over the last 8 years many of us have acknowledged that he's an idiot but learned to accept him despite his faults. The moment he hit that HR off of K-Rod is my favorite baseball memory. You can't pick and choose those types of things based on their work ethic, they just happen. I think that explains a lot of it.

Edited by amarshal2, 06 August 2008 - 10:47 AM.


#104 TomRicardo


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Posted 06 August 2008 - 10:37 AM

That being said, Manny Ramirez is going to the HOF, on the first ballot, for one and only one reason. He can square a ball up better than about every human being alive, or that has ever lived.


Yes, and that is why people love Manny. People love you because you helped win two world series, not because your teammates love you.

My question is this. How did a city so steeped in tradition and filled with blue collar people become so ok with a man sticking his middle finger up to anyone in the world that would look? The power of the home run and sweet swing is pretty amazing when you think about it.


When has Manny ever stuck his middle finger up to the fans of Boston? Even on his way out, he was saying how he loved the Boston fans. The only negative he ever said about Boston fans is that they are too obsessed and stalkerish, which is true. Christ Manny was much better to the fans than Ted Williams.

You want to rail on me here because my arm blew out and I didn't pitch this year that's fine. But to do this in a vacuum when you all read and heard the same things I did is somewhat, I don't know the word but it's something.


People are railing on you for ragging on a teammate while he still was on the team. The only excuse that can be given is you weren't really with the team. It is still tough to be ragging on guy for zero effort when you aren't playing at all. I mean it wasn't as funny as John Kruk railing on Manny (seriously John Kruk saying Manny didn't run hard, the last thing John Kruk ran after was an ice cream truck), but it is tough to see someone performing day and day out be criticized by someone who hasn't played a game all year.


I am sure I have former teammates that would say less than nice things about me, don't we all? But I promise you I've never ever been a guy that would garner even 5 no votes, much less 24, in a team wide poll of "Do you want him here or not"....


No one is saying you are worse clubhouse cancer than Manny. We just said it was out of line for someone to rag on his teammates to the Boston media which is hideous load of jackals. I never ever heard Manny say anything about any other player to the media.


Jason Varitek is arguably one of the most respected men in the game. There is literally NOTHING he does not do with 100% effort and integrity. If he was hitting 290 he'd be the most beloved person in this city. He's not and at the same time there is an almost 'anti-Jason' movement going on. The amount of hours he puts in rivals Manny when it comes to hitting.

So in a nutshell it really is about BA, HR, RBI at the end of the day right? Not saying that's right or wrong to feel one way or the other, but it is what it is right?

If you can hit when you feel like it all is forgiven.



What do you think get millions to try really really hard? Hell no, you get paid to win ball games. The point of the game is to produce. Thats why you get paid. Varitek could run severall thousand miles, so a thousand pushups, and study thousands of hours of tape, but at the end of the day if he is not producing, he is not helping the team to win. Thats the point of competitive sports. This is not a Miss Congeniality contest. I can't believe a future HoF doesn't get this. In the end, the bottom line is winning.

#105 5belongstoGeorge


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Posted 06 August 2008 - 10:38 AM

He's not and at the same time there is an almost 'anti-Jason' movement going on. The amount of hours he puts in rivals Manny when it comes to hitting.

No one I know is "anti-Jason". Several people, however, are anti-suck.

So in a nutshell it really is about BA, HR, RBI at the end of the day right? Not saying that's right or wrong to feel one way or the other, but it is what it is right?

BA, HR, and RBI are more important to me than the insider's code of conduct that allows certain types of bad behavior, sometimes criminal, to be overlooked, covered up, tacitly condoned, coddled, encouraged, and enabled while other "code infractions" are called out mercilessly.

#106 NickEsasky


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Posted 06 August 2008 - 10:39 AM

My question is this. How did a city so steeped in tradition and filled with blue collar people become so ok with a man sticking his middle finger up to anyone in the world that would look? The power of the home run and sweet swing is pretty amazing when you think about it. You want to rail on me here because my arm blew out and I didn't pitch this year that's fine. But to do this in a vacuum when you all read and heard the same things I did is somewhat, I don't know the word but it's something.


If you can hit when you feel like it all is forgiven.


Drocca and SJH have covered part of this well in their responses. But just to add to that as a fan of the Boston Red Sox I want the team to win. It;s a lot more fun to root for a team that wins then a team that loses. Manny's prodigious talent with the bat helped the Red Sox win. A lot. So if your abilities are able to help the team I root for get more W's then yeah I am going to cut you a lot more slack than say Joe Sixpack who hits .220.

Edited by NickEsasky, 06 August 2008 - 10:41 AM.


#107 URI


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Posted 06 August 2008 - 10:39 AM

My question is this. How did a city so steeped in tradition and filled with blue collar people become so ok with a man sticking his middle finger up to anyone in the world that would look?


Ted Williams literally did exactly that. And that was in the 40's when Boston was more "blue collar" than it is now.

#108 Gehrig38


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Posted 06 August 2008 - 10:40 AM

I read something the other day that was not really new to me, but for the first time in my life it resonated.

As much as I want to 'hang out' here and on some of the gaming forums and just 'be one of the guys', it's not possible. I have been naive enough to think I could and you could just 'let it happen' but at the end of the day it really is not possible.

Jason Varitek is a man I'd lay down my life for, on and off the field, Josh Beckett, Jon Lester, Mike Lowell, Wake, Dougie, Papi, all of them. Put 24 guys in a clubhouse who'd kill for you and you for the with 1 guy that didn't give a shit about you, well, can you see where I am coming from?

Listen Manny is not and never was the Anti-Christ. Over the course of my 4.5 years in that clubhouse we had some good and bad times. As a hitter he and I had tons of conversations, going both ways, about being pitched to and how I would pitch to someone else. At the end of the day Manny really could care less about me or my family and that's ok, even if it's not how I am or want to be.

Anyone remember the '04 game when D Lowe was leading (the Dodgers I think) 1-0 in Boston and Foulke came in to close the game? Remember what happened in the 9th? Shallow VERY routine fly ball to left? Ho hum, light jog in, glove non-chalantly up, oops? Drop, run scored, game tied. 4 days of grinding his ass off for D Lowe? So what. Blown Save for Foulke? So what. We ended up winning the game and at the end of the day it was "Manny being Manny".

I take the loss in a game Tek punches out with the bases loaded I'll sleep like a baby. I know for a guaranteed life betting fact that the man did everything in his God Given ability to succeed at the plate, behind the plate, on the bases and in the clubhouse because of the gut wrenching fear anyone would ever suspect he didn't play the game right, respect the uniform, appreciate the fact that some kid at that game might be watching his first ever baseball game, or care about his teammates.

You don't want to win a world series even close to as much as I always did and wanted to. Having to swallow things that you were raised to believe in to do it is hard as hell. Painful in ways the ring doesn't fix. You can drive home from the park and explain to your kids that something they saw you both knew was unethical or down right stupid and wrong was done by someone who just doesn't get it.

When your kid has a personal relationship with that person I can assure you it's a very different story. My kids loved the hell out of Manny, he was always nice to them when he talked to them. Again, this guy is far and away the best hitter I ever suited up with.

Oh and one more thing. No need to preach to me what our pay is for, I know that, and have always known that. The world is full of people that would give '110%' for 10 million a year.

Edited by Gehrig38, 06 August 2008 - 10:50 AM.


#109 Average Reds


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Posted 06 August 2008 - 10:40 AM

For the umpteenth time, I never questioned Scott Williamson being hurt, never. The urban legend this story became has about -2% truth to it.

He asked out of the game complaining of discomfort he himself could not locate, then came in to the training room and denied asking out of the game saying "I have no idea why he took me out."

Ya I had a problem with that.

Oh and another thing. 3 separate 'reputable' big league team doctors found absolutely nothing wrong with the elbow in question. Upon returning to his personal physician his elbow was found to be in total disarray. He then had TJ surgery and returned in less than a year didn't he?

This is the same guy who refused to fly on any airlines with the name "America" in it after 9/11........


I appreciate your candor here, but this last line reeks of being a cheap shot.

It's a cheap shot because (1) I'm not sure what it means - Does he hate America? Does he have some irrational fear of terrorist attack? Is it a general comment about his level of courage? - and (2) because it has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of what happened between the two of you.

I understand that you are frustrated by the "urban legend" that has grown out of the incident and it's clear that the two of you did not get along, which is fine. But to add a throwaway line like this to the end of your comment when the only possible way it can be interpreted is as a shot at his character does not make your case for you.

#110 Gehrig38


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Posted 06 August 2008 - 10:45 AM

Does he have some irrational fear of terrorist attack?


That.

#111 Gehrig38


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Posted 06 August 2008 - 10:49 AM

Ted Williams literally did exactly that. And that was in the 40's when Boston was more "blue collar" than it is now.


Did you ever question Ted Williams effort in any aspect of the game, ever? Did anyone? Ted Williams, it could be argued, was a man who used every single ounce of every God Given ability he possessed. From being an ace in two wars, to being as some people have said one of the best fly fisherman in the world to being the best hitter that ever lived. He might have rubbed fans and the media wrong because he didn't like you but there was not one ounce of disrespect to the game or his country in the man.

To even mention these two men outside of their career numbers in comparison is wrong imo.

CK text noted and fixed....thanks!

Edited by Gehrig38, 06 August 2008 - 10:50 AM.


#112 NickEsasky


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Posted 06 August 2008 - 10:51 AM

Did you ever question Ted Williams effort in any aspect of the game, ever? Did anyone? Ted Williams, it could be argued, was a man who used every single ounce of every God Given ability he possessed. From being an ace in two wars, to being as some people have said one of the best fly fisherman in the world to being the best hitter that ever lived. He might have rubbed fans and the media wrong because he didn't like you but there was not one ounce of disrespect to the game or his country in the man.

To even mention these two men outside of their career numbers in comparison is wrong imo.

CK text noted and fixed....thanks!


Ted Williams was constantly maligned in the media for only caring about hitting and being a bit of a loafer in the field and on the base paths.

#113 URI


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Posted 06 August 2008 - 10:52 AM

Did you ever question Ted Williams effort in any aspect of the game, ever? Did anyone? Ted Williams, it could be argued, was a man who used every single ounce of every God Given ability he possessed. From being an ace in two wars, to being as some people have said one of the best fly fisherman in the world to being the best hitter that ever lived. He might have rubbed fans and the media wrong because he didn't like you but there was not one ounce of disrespect to the game or his country in the man.

To even mention these two men outside of their career numbers in comparison is wrong imo.


Yes. David Egan did all the time. Even now, when you hear people talk about Williams, they say he was the greatest hitter that ever lived but was indifferent in the field and on the bases. That warrents mentioning.

Of course, I know he was a great fighter pilot, a great fly fisherman, and he absolutely was an American hero. That's not relevent when we're discussing how Williams actually flipped off the fans in Boston because they booed him after loafing after a ball to left.

That is something Manny, for all his faults, never did.

#114 Gehrig38


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Posted 06 August 2008 - 10:54 AM

Yes. David Egan did all the time. Even now, when you hear people talk about Williams, they say he was the greatest hitter that ever lived but was indifferent in the field and on the bases. That warrents mentioning.

Of course, I know he was a great fighter pilot, a great fly fisherman, and he absolutely was an American hero. That's not relevent when we're discussing how Williams actually flipped off the fans in Boston because they booed him after loafing after a ball to left.

That is something Manny, for all his faults, never did.


I've never heard any player that played with him or against him even mention this. Doesn't make me right just saying I have never ever heard this about him. Now to be fair I haven't read up on him like Lou Gehrig or Clemente so I could be wrong.

But to compare here, will people 25 years from now, or more, remember anything other than Manny retired with 1st ballot HOF numbers? Asking because I have no idea.

FYI you ever say something like this around Pesky and he'll kick your ass.

#115 Smiling Joe Hesketh


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Posted 06 August 2008 - 10:55 AM

Did you ever question Ted Williams effort in any aspect of the game, ever? Did anyone? Ted Williams, it could be argued, was a man who used every single ounce of every God Given ability he possessed. From being an ace in two wars, to being as some people have said one of the best fly fisherman in the world to being the best hitter that ever lived. He might have rubbed fans and the media wrong because he didn't like you but there was not one ounce of disrespect to the game or his country in the man.

To even mention these two men outside of their career numbers in comparison is wrong imo.

CK text noted and fixed....thanks!

Curt, may I suggest you read this writeup about the way Ted Williams was treated in Boston. It's extremely enlightening.

The money shot:

Williams was a particular target of Boston Record columnist Dave Egan, who ripped Williams with a style and frequency that would make Dan Shaughnessy blush.

In 1952, Williams was headed to Korea for his second tour of combat duty with the Marines. It was his last game before heading out, and many showed up at Fenway Park to pay tribute to him. They were well aware that this might be the final game of his brilliant career, he could be injured or killed in the war, and no one knew how long the war might continue. By the time it was over, Williams might be too old to continue playing.

It was under these circumstances that Egan took aim at Williams for being a poor example for America’s youth. (Excerpted from the Ted Williams Reader.)...

<snip>

So on the day that Williams was leaving to serve his country and put his life on the line, Egan rips him because he prefers not to wear neckties. He’s worried that America’s youth will be tarnished because Ted Williams will not wear a tie.



#116 JokersWildJIMED


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Posted 06 August 2008 - 10:57 AM

Trying to argue against Manny on this board is a losing venture, despite overwhelming evidence. There are still many on the board that support his "bum knee" complaints and have no problem with his beating out infield hits and running to first base in LA in a lot less than 5.7. Some try to be the voices of reason (as they represent the vast majority of the fanbase) but they get drowned out by the majority here who see and hear no evil. The reception for Bay on Friday night tells you all you need to know where the "Nation" really stands on the issue.









Edit: typo

Edited by JokersWildJIMED, 06 August 2008 - 10:58 AM.


#117 URI


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Posted 06 August 2008 - 10:58 AM

I've never heard any player that played with him or against him even mention this. Doesn't make me right just saying I have never ever heard this about him. Now to be fair I haven't read up on him like Lou Gehrig or Clemente so I could be wrong.

But to compare here, will people 25 years from now, or more, remember anything other than Manny retired with 1st ballot HOF numbers? Asking because I have no idea.

FYI you ever say something like this around Pesky and he'll kick your ass.


I think Manny's legacy will be smoothed, and he'll be seen as "colorful" and "enagmatic". There will some that will remember that he's a turd.

Also, Pesky might whip up on me, which is unfortunate, because despite their close friendship, Ted Williams was at best standoffish with the media and the fans, and at worst showed the fans they were #1.

#118 Return of the Dewey

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 10:58 AM

As much as I want to 'hang out' here and on some of the gaming forums and just 'be one of the guys', it's not possible. I have been naive enough to think I could and you could just 'let it happen' but at the end of the day it really is not possible.


I don't think, in general, this is true, but it may be true when it comes to talk about baseball, and, in particular, talk about a baseball team that you've played/are playing on with fans of such baseball team.

Fans, especially Red Sox fans, are irrational. There's no reason for a 36 year old male like myself to get so much joy, excitement, frustration, anxiety, etc. about watching a bunch of 20-40 year old males play a game. But I do. I remember being depressed for days/weeks/months after the Boone HR in '03 (when I was 31). I remember being nervous all day leading up to Game 7 '04 ALCS in NY, to the point that I couldn't eat. My wedding and the birth of my kids are the only events in my life where I can think of a time that I was happier than after the Sox won in '04. Is any of this rational? No. Are all these feelings stupid? Probably.

Because of this, when a player, who may happen to be the best guy in the world who plays the game correctly and gives 150%, is not performing up to performance expectations and the team is losing, fans are going to act with irrational emotions. Players don't have the luxury of being irrationally attached to a team like fans...they need to keep their performance in order to perform. So, yes, I think it could be hard for a player to discuss other players with fans.

#119 yep

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 10:58 AM

We like to pretend that the best players are driven, hardworking, dedicated, and courageous, as well as kind to animals and children. It's a lot more fun to be a sports fan when you can attribute more fundamental virtues to the best players than some randomly-allocated ability to hit a ball with a stick.

It's tough to come to terms with the possibility that the guy who brought your hometown a pair of trophies might be a mercenary a-hole who could care less about his team or the little people around him. It's tough to root for, cheer for, stand up and applaud for people whose personal characteristics are ones we dislike.

So we read a certain degree of virtue into on-field success, we read a certain degree of character flaw into failure, and we read a certain amount of villainy into the players on opposing teams, a lot of which is almost certainly undeserved. This is not a hard, binary, absolute thing, but a matter of which side of the line we err on, where we assign the benefit of the doubt.

#120 TomRicardo


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Posted 06 August 2008 - 10:59 AM

Did you ever question Ted Williams effort in any aspect of the game, ever? Did anyone? Ted Williams, it could be argued, was a man who used every single ounce of every God Given ability he possessed. From being an ace in two wars, to being as some people have said one of the best fly fisherman in the world to being the best hitter that ever lived. He might have rubbed fans and the media wrong because he didn't like you but there was not one ounce of disrespect to the game or his country in the man.


Are you kidding me?

Williams was known for not given his all on the field. In 1940 when he was being booed he would routinely take lazy routes to balls and let easy fly balls drop. Left Grove wanted to kill Williams because he was so bad in left field. Williams may have been even worse than Manny because Williams was in his prime when he pulled these stunts (1940). Ted Williams got into several fist fights because of his lack of effort.

It was cost him the MVP in 41 and 42.

To even mention these two men outside of their career numbers in comparison is wrong imo.


Yes because Manny never hestiated to tip his cap even if he was boo'd the night before. Manny was a much better citizen than Williams.

#121 URI


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Posted 06 August 2008 - 11:00 AM

Trying to argue against Manny on this board is a losing venture, despite overwhelming evidence. There are still many on the board that support his "bum knee" complaints and have no problem with his beating out infield hits and running to first base in LA in a lot less than 5.7. Some try to be the voices of reason (as they represent the vast majority of the fanbase) but they get drowned out by the majority here who see and hear no evil. The reception for Bay on Friday night tells you all you need to know where the "Nation" really stands on the issue.
Edit: typo


Who is defending anything Manny did in this thread? The thread topic is centered around a teammate of his using the media to air what's happening in the clubhouse...and that's what we're discussing.

#122 Gehrig38


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Posted 06 August 2008 - 11:00 AM

Curt, may I suggest you read this writeup about the way Ted Williams was treated in Boston. It's extremely enlightening.

The money shot:


Ya but Joe that's not what we are talking about. That's a tool in the media, an older version of CHB, being CHB before there was a CHB. That tells me nothing other than a man in the media who obviously has a sincere dislike for the man spouting off about something irrelevant.

I am talking about legitimate factual evidence that anyone believed or saw Ted play the game at less than 100%. Again I didn't grow up a Sox fan and could be totally ignorant on this, but I don't remember ever seeing that anywhere.

#123 PedroisGod

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 11:01 AM

This...

At the end of the day Manny really could care less about me or my family and that's ok, even if it's not how I am or want to be.

doesn't jive with this...

When your kid has a personal relationship with that person I can assure you it's a very different story. My kids loved the hell out of Manny, he was always nice to them when he talked to them.


Just saying these seem like pretty contradictory statements.

#124 Smiling Joe Hesketh


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Posted 06 August 2008 - 11:04 AM

Ya but Joe that's not what we are talking about. That's a tool in the media, an older version of CHB, being CHB before there was a CHB. That tells me nothing other than a man in the media who obviously has a sincere dislike for the man spouting off about something irrelevant.

I am talking about legitimate factual evidence that anyone believed or saw Ted play the game at less than 100%. Again I didn't grow up a Sox fan and could be totally ignorant on this, but I don't remember ever seeing that anywhere.

There are/were many contemporary accounts that Ted loafed in the field. There's an oft-told story that he would be in the OF taking imaginary practice swings instead of paying attention to the game. Many of these fall into the anecdote category, so it's tough to judge their veracity, but the general picture has remained pretty consistent throughout the years.

I'm not old enough to have seen Williams play, but there's a lot of smoke indicating that much like Manny, the only thing that Williams loved to do was hit a baseball. If any our our posters here who've seen Ted play could chime I'm, I'd defer to their statements.

#125 TomRicardo


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Posted 06 August 2008 - 11:05 AM

Ya but Joe that's not what we are talking about. That's a tool in the media, an older version of CHB, being CHB before there was a CHB. That tells me nothing other than a man in the media who obviously has a sincere dislike for the man spouting off about something irrelevant.

I am talking about legitimate factual evidence that anyone believed or saw Ted play the game at less than 100%. Again I didn't grow up a Sox fan and could be totally ignorant on this, but I don't remember ever seeing that anywhere.


How about Lefty Grove coming off the mound threatening Williams that he was going to kill him or Doc Cramer getting into fist fights with Williams in the dugout?

Williams teammates hated him (at least before the war). Cronin had to threaten to bench hi9m constantly because Williams did not care about his fielding.

Edited by TomRicardo, 06 August 2008 - 11:08 AM.


#126 Cuzittt


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Posted 06 August 2008 - 11:05 AM

Did you ever question Ted Williams effort in any aspect of the game, ever? Did anyone?


Absolutely. As others mentioned... his defense was not good. While I don't have contemporary accounts... I'll excerpt some stuff from ArmChair GM

In fact, Boston manager Joe Cronin confided in Ted on Day One that no matter how the spring would go, he would be the team's starting right-fielder on Opening Day. Publicly, Cronin expressed faith in Williams. Privately, he had his doubts. After all, "The Kid" was but nineteen years old. Sure, he was already a great hitter. After all, he practiced and studied the craft more than anyone else alive. His defense, however, was suspect, and he showed little interest in improving it. And of course there was still the matter of his attitude. But he could hit, oh my, how he could hit.

Although he committed ninteen errors, showed occassional lapses in concentration or effort, and constantly rubbed his teammates the wrong way, Williams was magical with the bat.


But to Williams' ears, they were boos, they were coming from his hometown fans, and they were directed at him. All of those factors, combined with a slow start at the plate, had Williams in a snit. As his mood worsened, so did his defense. Largely blamed on indifference, Williams often loafed after balls hit to left and routinely displayed an obvious lack of hustle. After one play in particular, Sox ace Lefty Grove yelled at Williams and threatened to "punch him out". After that game, center-feilder Doc Cramer confronted Williams in the runway to the clubhouse. The verbal sparring escelated into a fist fight and the two men each landed several blows. After all of this, Williams refused to see any flaw in his approach and refused to change. And as one would imagine, his overall mood continued to deteriorate. Finally Cronin threatened to bench Teddy Ballgame, but could never quite bring himself to do it.

From the first part of the series:

While Jimmie Foxx was setting single-season records for Boston (50 homers, 175 RBI) en route to the 1938 MVP Award, Ted Williams (with the help and advice of batting coach Rogers Hornsby) was busy winning the American Association's Triple Crown. That year, he hit .366 with 42 home runs and 142 RBI. Despite several episodes of "Teddy being Manny" (ie: imitating his swing for fans while in right field, sitting down at times between batters, and failing to go all-out for fly balls), Williams was obviously not long for Minneapolis. In fact, 1938 would be his only year there.

In 1939, despite the fact that he wasn't quite ready defensively, nor in terms of maturity, Ted Williams would get called up to the big club.


And, the 3rd Part:

On July 18, 1956, Williams hit his 400th home run against Kansas City at Fenway. As he crossed home plate, he raised his gaze toward the writers in the press box and spat in their direction. Amazingly, the next day, the press remained silent in response to the incident. Days later, Williams again spat in the direction of the press box a second time. And again, the writers practiced restraint and made no mention of the incident. But Ted was rambunctious. On August 7, after dropping a fly ball, the "Fenway Faithful" booed Ted mercilessly. Then the next batter hit a liner to the gap which Ted hustled and caught, causing the boos to turn to cheers. This fickleness insenced Williams, who spat toward the crowd on both the first base line and the third base line on his way into the dugout.



#127 John Marzano Olympic Hero


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Posted 06 August 2008 - 11:05 AM

"I wonder what he'd say if Josh Beckett came out tomorrow and said that Schilling has been faking all year and should get out there and pitch?"

It's a hypothetical that could not happen so there is no way to answer it.

The point of this statement was maybe Manny was jaking it, maybe he wasn't. I just thought it was a BS move to publicly come out and say so. Especially since you're the guy that preaches the team being one big family and most of the Manny crap had died down. You know how this town works, you just gave the media another two or three day cycle to run with this story. And what good does it do, really? I guess you come off looking like a hero because you have/had a problem with Manny too, but the guy is gone. Like I said, I don't see how that helps anyone.

My question is this. How did a city so steeped in tradition and filled with blue collar people become so ok with a man sticking his middle finger up to anyone in the world that would look? The power of the home run and sweet swing is pretty amazing when you think about it. You want to rail on me here because my arm blew out and I didn't pitch this year that's fine. But to do this in a vacuum when you all read and heard the same things I did is somewhat, I don't know the word but it's something.


I think that you may have overestimated Boston's working class/blue collar -- especially on this board. Most of the people here care about one thing: results. By and large, Manny Ramirez gave results. Was he a pain in the ass in the clubhouse? I have no idea, I'm not there ... but it sounds like he is. Honestly, I don't care. Everyone on this board works with a pain in the ass and they deal with it.

I am sure I have former teammates that would say less than nice things about me, don't we all? But I promise you I've never ever been a guy that would garner even 5 no votes, much less 24, in a team wide poll of "Do you want him here or not"....


I'm not trying to kiss your ass here, but you get the job done. I don't care what the other 24 guys on your team think about you. As a fan, the bottom line is this (for me) I just want to see a check mark in the W column. I don't really care if you're (this is the royal you, not you specifically) with sick kids all day, whether you're in church for 15 hours or whether you're doing lines of coke off a prostitute's ass. As long as you win and your off-field activities don't get in the way, do what you like.

Isn't that the bottom line? Isn't that what a professional athlete gets paid for? Don't you think it's weird that thousands upon thousands of people (most adults) think that they know you, but don't really know one thing about you? If it were me, I would be complete baffled as to why someone respects and cares about my opinion on who should be president or my take on the season finale of "Lost".

#128 Gehrig38


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Posted 06 August 2008 - 11:05 AM

This...

doesn't jive with this...
Just saying these seem like pretty contradictory statements.


Not at all. I have been around tons of idiots and assholes that are incredibly kind and caring of children. It's actually, I am told, not uncommon at all for people with social issues or compatibility problems to be perfectly normal and relaxed, at ease, with kids. He didn't treat my children any differently than any of the other kids. He didn't go out of his way to interact with them the way Tito, Wake or Mike Timlin or Tek did, but like every guy in every clubhouse I have ever been in, regardless of what you might think of a player kids were always off limits for personal differences imo.

Hell one of the nicest kids I was ever around was Mitch Williams step son, and imo he was the ultimate tool in the toolbox as a person and a teammate.

EDIT: Never have I had an issue admitting to being less than the smartest guy in the room. Learn something new every day. I had no idea Ted Williams had a reputation as a hack in the OF or a loafer, and to be honest after getting to know him my first trip through this organization it stuns me. I have story to tell about something he did that to this day still puts me in awe of the man. When I get a chance I will post it somewhere other than here.

Edited by Gehrig38, 06 August 2008 - 11:09 AM.


#129 yep

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 11:06 AM

Curt, may I suggest you read this writeup ...

This seems basically about a hatchet job that, in and of itself, says more about the media than Ted Williams.

#130 Rocco Graziosa


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Posted 06 August 2008 - 11:06 AM

This...

doesn't jive with this...
Just saying these seem like pretty contradictory statements.


Being nice to someone doesn't mean you care about them.

I think this is crux of the discussion for me:


My question is this. How did a city so steeped in tradition and filled with blue collar people become so ok with a man sticking his middle finger up to anyone in the world that would look?


I've never understood this. In fact it almost seemed to me that fans embraced it. After all at the end of the day thats really what "Manny being Manny" was all about.

#131 yecul


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Posted 06 August 2008 - 11:07 AM

For the umpteenth time, I never questioned Scott Williamson being hurt, never.
Ö
Oh and another thing. 3 separate 'reputable' big league team doctors found absolutely nothing wrong with the elbow in question. Upon returning to his personal physician his elbow was found to be in total disarray. He then had TJ surgery and returned in less than a year didn't he?


Never? So this post is the first time then I take it? I guess never just became once?

Or was your not-so-subtle questioning of his surgery not to be taken seriously?

This is the same guy who refused to fly on any airlines with the name "America" in it after 9/11........


Next thing youíll tell us that he called out his teammates!!

"I wonder what he'd say if Josh Beckett came out tomorrow and said that Schilling has been faking all year and should get out there and pitch?"

It's a hypothetical that could not happen so there is no way to answer it.


You do know what hypothetical means, donít you?

That being said, Manny Ramirez is going to the HOF, on the first ballot, for one and only one reason. He can square a ball up better than about every human being alive, or that has ever lived.


And all you can do is pitch... Just sayin.

My question is this. How did a city so steeped in tradition and filled with blue collar people become so ok with a man sticking his middle finger up to anyone in the world that would look?


Actually, they booed Byung-Hyun Kim pretty mightily, but Iím not sure what that has to do with this conversation.

You want to rail on me here because my arm blew out and I didn't pitch this year that's fine.


I donít know if people are getting on you for being hurt. All I know is that I am not and many others are not. There is the matter of mouth diarrhea thoughÖ

I am sure I have former teammates that would say less than nice things about me, don't we all? But I promise you I've never ever been a guy that would garner even 5 no votes, much less 24, in a team wide poll of "Do you want him here or not"....


I canít answer that as itís an impossible hypothetical.

Jason Varitek is arguably one of the most respected men in the game. There is literally NOTHING he does not do with 100% effort and integrity. If he was hitting 290 he'd be the most beloved person in this city. He's not and at the same time there is an almost 'anti-Jason' movement going on. The amount of hours he puts in rivals Manny when it comes to hitting.


What is your point here, that Varitek is not beloved by the vast majority of fans or that certain players should never ever be questioned in any way?

Since we all know Varitek is hugely popular it's hard to think that's what you meant, so can you provide a list of players that are ok to criticize and players that are not ok to criticize? It would make it easier for us.

So in a nutshell it really is about BA, HR, RBI at the end of the day right? Not saying that's right or wrong to feel one way or the other, but it is what it is right?

If you can hit when you feel like it all is forgiven.


Next thing youíre going to tell me is that I should enjoy World Series wins!

Look man, I just want to see my millionaire friends with smiles on their faces. I am a simple blue collar folk.

#132 Average Reds


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Posted 06 August 2008 - 11:08 AM

I've never heard any player that played with him or against him even mention this. Doesn't make me right just saying I have never ever heard this about him. Now to be fair I haven't read up on him like Lou Gehrig or Clemente so I could be wrong.

But to compare here, will people 25 years from now, or more, remember anything other than Manny retired with 1st ballot HOF numbers? Asking because I have no idea.

FYI you ever say something like this around Pesky and he'll kick your ass.


Ted Williams did things on a baseball field that would have gotten Manny arrested if had done them today.

For example, Williams was so upset after popping out one time that he just heaved his bat in the air as he walked down to first. The bat ended up going well into the stands and hitting a fan square in the head. (The woman happened to be Joe Cronin's housekeeper and luckily was not seriously hurt.) Or the time he threw his bat at a group of reporters during batting practice and later claimed that he wasn't throwing it at anyone in particular, since there were three or four writers around. And he was fined many, many times for spitting at fans/writers/anyone in particular.

This doesn't make him a terrible guy. As URI said, he was/is a genuine American hero. But he was a flawed hero with serious anger management problems and to say that he never did anything to disrespect the game and it's fans is just wrong.

#133 maufman


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Posted 06 August 2008 - 11:10 AM

I take the loss in a game Tek punches out with the bases loaded I'll sleep like a baby. I know for a guaranteed life betting fact that the man did everything in his God Given ability to succeed at the plate, behind the plate, on the bases and in the clubhouse because of the gut wrenching fear anyone would ever suspect he didn't play the game right, respect the uniform, appreciate the fact that some kid at that game might be watching his first ever baseball game, or care about his teammates.


This drives it home for me. Whether Manny gave 100% effort 100% of the time is almost beside the point-- the fact that you have to ask is bad enough.

If there's an anti-Jason movement, I've missed it. SoSH is the only place I've seen a cross word about Tek, and even here, the discussion mostly focuses on the need to acknowledge reality-- when a 36 y.o. catcher with Tek's track record posts 665 OPS, it might just be a slump, but the smart money says he's washed up. If he had another year left on his contract, you'd hear a lot less about it; we'd occasionally bitch about his declining skills, but we'd just hope he turned it around. But that's not the case, and the FO has a tough decision to make this winter.

#134 Gehrig38


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Posted 06 August 2008 - 11:11 AM

This doesn't make him a terrible guy. As URI said, he was/is a genuine American hero. But he was a flawed hero with serious anger management problems and to say that he never did anything to disrespect the game and it's fans is just wrong.


Read my addendum above so I don't have to re-post please.

#135 yecul


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Posted 06 August 2008 - 11:13 AM

I read something the other day that was not really new to me, but for the first time in my life it resonated.

As much as I want to 'hang out' here and on some of the gaming forums and just 'be one of the guys', it's not possible. I have been naive enough to think I could and you could just 'let it happen' but at the end of the day it really is not possible.


Here's the problem. Given your reaction you are NOT looking to hang out and be treated like one of the guys.

You are lookign to be treated like CURT SCHILLING and to be lauded and complimented.

Which is fine. But let's be real. You wouldn't say the things you say and then react this way if you were looking to be treated like anyone else.

Everyone gets called out when they run their mouth or do something stupid. THIS is getting treated like everyone else.

#136 TomRicardo


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Posted 06 August 2008 - 11:15 AM

This seems basically about a hatchet job that, in and of itself, says more about the media than Ted Williams.


It is documented that many players hated Williams. It is even mentioned in his biography.

#137 Trautwein's Degree


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Posted 06 August 2008 - 11:18 AM

It is documented that many players hated Williams. It is even mentioned in his biography.


Montville's biography on Williams is one of the best biographies that I have ever read.

I suspect that Williams and Manny have/had a lot in common in terms of personality. I think they're both geniuses.

History teaches us that geniuses are often epic dickheads with tremendous personal shortcomings and have difficulty operating in society.

#138 URI


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Posted 06 August 2008 - 11:20 AM

Montville's biography on Williams is one of the best biographies that I have ever read.

I suspect that Williams and Manny have/had a lot in common in terms of personality. I think they're both geniuses.

History teaches us that geniuses are often epic dickheads with tremendous personal shortcomings and have difficulty operating in society.


Well, Williams flew planes. Manny likes "All Dogs Go to Heaven".

#139 CPT Neuron


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Posted 06 August 2008 - 11:28 AM

I read something the other day that was not really new to me, but for the first time in my life it resonated.

As much as I want to 'hang out' here and on some of the gaming forums and just 'be one of the guys', it's not possible. I have been naive enough to think I could and you could just 'let it happen' but at the end of the day it really is not possible.

Jason Varitek is a man I'd lay down my life for, on and off the field, Josh Beckett, Jon Lester, Mike Lowell, Wake, Dougie, Papi, all of them. Put 24 guys in a clubhouse who'd kill for you and you for the with 1 guy that didn't give a shit about you, well, can you see where I am coming from?

Listen Manny is not and never was the Anti-Christ. Over the course of my 4.5 years in that clubhouse we had some good and bad times. As a hitter he and I had tons of conversations, going both ways, about being pitched to and how I would pitch to someone else. At the end of the day Manny really could care less about me or my family and that's ok, even if it's not how I am or want to be.

Anyone remember the '04 game when D Lowe was leading (the Dodgers I think) 1-0 in Boston and Foulke came in to close the game? Remember what happened in the 9th? Shallow VERY routine fly ball to left? Ho hum, light jog in, glove non-chalantly up, oops? Drop, run scored, game tied. 4 days of grinding his ass off for D Lowe? So what. Blown Save for Foulke? So what. We ended up winning the game and at the end of the day it was "Manny being Manny".

I take the loss in a game Tek punches out with the bases loaded I'll sleep like a baby. I know for a guaranteed life betting fact that the man did everything in his God Given ability to succeed at the plate, behind the plate, on the bases and in the clubhouse because of the gut wrenching fear anyone would ever suspect he didn't play the game right, respect the uniform, appreciate the fact that some kid at that game might be watching his first ever baseball game, or care about his teammates.

You don't want to win a world series even close to as much as I always did and wanted to. Having to swallow things that you were raised to believe in to do it is hard as hell. Painful in ways the ring doesn't fix. You can drive home from the park and explain to your kids that something they saw you both knew was unethical or down right stupid and wrong was done by someone who just doesn't get it.

When your kid has a personal relationship with that person I can assure you it's a very different story. My kids loved the hell out of Manny, he was always nice to them when he talked to them. Again, this guy is far and away the best hitter I ever suited up with.

Oh and one more thing. No need to preach to me what our pay is for, I know that, and have always known that. The world is full of people that would give '110%' for 10 million a year.




An interesting combination of points here, and I'm afraid while they are all on target, they fail to reach the intended "call out". I have no doubt that the events of 31 July 2008 are the culmination of many differnet episodes of "Manny being Manny", and while I can sit on the couch and work my intrinsic hand muscles by toggling between NESN and ESPN and MLB EI to catch all of the games possible, I can never have "insider knowledge" of what a professional clubhouse is like - it is a world different from what I have ever experienced, but I suspect not too dissimilar.

At the end of the day, Manny is what what Manny was and what Manny always will be - an individual with a skill set that <.001% of the population has - an ability to hit a round ball with a round bat with remarkable frequency and results. He is also, from an observational only standpoint, likely someone who fails to "get it", in a way that speaks of PDD. Now, I have never met Manny, never spoken with Manny, never examined Manny; but his skill set with a bat in hand is not unlike what can be seen in PDD with a a variety of other skills (math, music, art, etc.). His clear failings with interpersonal skills and public relations is a red flag as well - he is seems to be, again from a great distance of observation alone, either unbelievably selfish (a personality trait that likely improves his physical skill set), ridiculously naive, or just childish and immature in a way that defies typical personality growth and development. The professional part of me would love to examine Manny to get a real read on what the presented persona is in relation to the man behind the curtain so to speak.

With that said, the only thing I find disappointing in the comments made prior to the trade is the clear message delivered that Manny quit on the team and the perception that you threw him under the proverbial bus. The FO, the Manager, and many players have echoed a sentiment of "keeping things in-house", and the comments made in that forum are clearly outside of that paradigm. Since the trade, others have commented on the situation, but in a much more indirect and veiled fashion - apparently taking the high road so to speak. So at the end of the day, one is left with the conclusion that Manny failed the "fox hole test" - he is clearly not someone you woud want in a fox hole with you, and in doing so he alienated his teammates, field level management, and front office. Unfortunately, as is the case with most dirty laundry, it found a way to be aired in a very public forum.

Perhaps this can be another case of addition by subtraction - unity and "chemistry" are something that the more statistically-oriented crowd on this particular forum tend to under-value, but coming from a background where a true sense of mission and unity is paramount to achieving the objectives, I can appreciate that sense fully. Esprit de corps is more than just a jarhead slogan, it is real if not necessairly measureable.

While I can be disappointed that Manny is now playing for the Dodgers, I can, at the same time, relish the memories that I have of him. I will never say never, but I will admit that I am doubtful that I will ever see another player hit the ball the way Manny did/does. I will remember watching coutless games with my kids and joking that I, too, would grow the Manny-locks (near impossible for me on many levels), and enjoying the way he dissected the pitcher. I love that my little league aged son tries to mimic Manny's stance and swing because even he can tell that it is a thing of beauty. We have been blessed seeing not only 2 championships for the laundry, but also seeing 3 tremendous talents unique in many ways during the same time. Nomar, Pedro, and now Manny - 3 unbelievable talents with unreal skill sets, came through Boston during this time, and we got to watch them on a daily basis. Like a good bottle of wine, there is a bottom that is inevitably found, but the taste is forever burned into your memory. I can only hope that I will cherish the memories.

#140 TomRicardo


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Posted 06 August 2008 - 11:29 AM

I suspect that Williams and Manny have/had a lot in common in terms of personality. I think they're both geniuses.

History teaches us that geniuses are often epic dickheads with tremendous personal shortcomings and have difficulty operating in society.


The big difference is Manny is happy go lucky and loved the attention from the fans. Williams was aggressive malcontent that made Russell's experience with Boston look like a love affair.

Edit - example, Williams didn't tip his hat in Fenway for over 50 years (thoughout most of his career). Manny tipped his hat after he took a piss in the Green Monster.

Edited by TomRicardo, 06 August 2008 - 11:31 AM.


#141 Return of the Dewey

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 11:31 AM

I take the loss in a game Tek punches out with the bases loaded I'll sleep like a baby. I know for a guaranteed life betting fact that the man did everything in his God Given ability to succeed at the plate, behind the plate, on the bases and in the clubhouse because of the gut wrenching fear anyone would ever suspect he didn't play the game right, respect the uniform, appreciate the fact that some kid at that game might be watching his first ever baseball game, or care about his teammates.


I think here lies the difference in the perspective of a player and a fan. No, I wouldn't sleep like a baby, I'd be pissed....maybe even throw a shoe at the TV or something. The Sox team of '99 was a bunch of "dirt dogs" who all, for the most part, did everthign in their God Given ability to succeed, but, at the end of the day, they lost to the MFY because they weren't good enough....and, for a fan, that's all that matters b/c the players aren't our family/friends/co-workers.

#142 5belongstoGeorge


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Posted 06 August 2008 - 11:33 AM

History teaches us that geniuses are often epic dickheads with tremendous personal shortcomings and have difficulty operating in society.

This explains my difficulties in P&G!

It seems like different people watch baseball for different reasons and different people play baseball for different reasons too. Are some people better fans or better players because of their internal motivations? Probably yes. Still, that is most often a purely subjective distinction and has little to do with my enjoyment of a ballgame.

Manny, warts and all, was a pleasure to have on my favorite team - at least from my perspective. If guys in the clubhouse didn't/don't like him they should take it up with him or they could go have a coke and a smile.

#143 Gehrig38


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Posted 06 August 2008 - 11:35 AM

Here's the problem. Given your reaction you are NOT looking to hang out and be treated like one of the guys.

You are lookign to be treated like CURT SCHILLING and to be lauded and complimented.

Which is fine. But let's be real. You wouldn't say the things you say and then react this way if you were looking to be treated like anyone else.

Everyone gets called out when they run their mouth or do something stupid. THIS is getting treated like everyone else.


You're an idiot. I've spent my whole life, professional life, being lauded and complimented by people that have no idea who I am. I sure as hell am not coming here to get validation or reinforcement.

I'm passionate, and likely irrational if I could take an objective look at some of the things I say.

What I do expect and often times don't get is credit for having insight perspective you can't and don't have.

Ya I guess in saying that you are right. When I tell you or anyone here about the why's and how's of some personal team situation I'm not taking a stab in the dark, I'm telling you as someone that is lockering next to and living with the subject at hand.

You want to tell me what you THINK of the Manny situation, that's cool and totally relevant. Without being completely transparent I am telling you exactly HOW and exactly WHY some of this stuff happens. I know, I live it, and have lived it for 22 years.

That age old 'chemistry' argument? I don't give a rats ass what anyone says or thinks I can tell you it is an absolute guaranteed certainty when talking about the impact chemistry has on winning/losing.

Clutch? SOSH members are forever arguing if 'it exists'. In the manner you are looking at it, and what you are looking for maybe it doesn't, but I can assure you, promise you, it does. Is it a definable stat? No maybe it isn't but when I hear a pitcher talk about facing David and his thought process I can tell you that not only does it exist but it does win and lose game. Maybe not in ways you want or think, but it's there. Clutch is what causes men to act and react with seemingly no triggering event, and David Ortiz is a prime example of that. One only has to talk and listen to guys who have faced him to know. Don't the post game press conferences and managers discussions reinforce 'clutch' when they talk about a 7th or 8th inning and how it might affect having to face David again?

I am, as usual blabbing and off tangent, but I guess in a twisted way I am agreeing with you but didn't know it. I do want to be treated differently when we are discussing things like this because at the end of the day I know the truth and the facts and you don't. Wow that sounds so 8 year oldish...

It's not intended to be a 'nanny nanny boo boo' but it sure sounds like it.

#144 yecul


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Posted 06 August 2008 - 11:36 AM

For the record, I 100% support Schilling's right to hold these opinions and 100% understand his viewpoint regarding Manny. It would piss me off too if I thought someone wasn't trying hard.

That said, this is all about calling out players on the Sox.

Here's the thing he's totally missing. This has nothing to do with Manny or Schilling or anyone else. This is about Boston fans loving the Red Sox. Us fans would prefer Manny to have tried harder just like we would like Schilling to stop running his mouth. No one is perfect, but they're all a part of the team, so these are the things that we fans put up with.

You're an idiot. I've spent my whole life, professional life, being lauded and complimented by people that have no idea who I am. I sure as hell am not coming here to get validation or reinforcement.
...
I am, as usual blabbing and off tangent, but I guess in a twisted way I am agreeing with you but didn't know it. I do want to be treated differently when we are discussing things like this because at the end of the day I know the truth and the facts and you don't. Wow that sounds so 8 year oldish...


As I said, this isn't about whether you are right or wrong. No one is defending Manny. They are criticizing you talking about Manny. Big difference.

Surely you can see that. Whether you care or not, well, that's another matter. But when posters here or people in the media or other players talk like that we call them out.

This isn't you doing a game log or whatever. Those were awesome and everyone loved them. It's a shame the media did their thing with those. Your insight was given complete legitimacy. As I said above, I fully understand and agree with your take on the guy. But this isn't about that.

Edited by yecul, 06 August 2008 - 11:43 AM.


#145 Yaz4Ever


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Posted 06 August 2008 - 11:40 AM

Curt, my dad and I go back and forth over Manny all the time. We have for years. I consider myself pretty old-school when it comes to what I expect from a ballplayer, but my dad...well, let's just say he's really old school. Whenever we'd watch a game together, I'd refer to Manny as a "gazelle", saying how fleet afoot he was and how hard he hustled. After cleaning up the blood that would be trickling from his ears, he would tell me that "Manny couldn't carry Williams' jock" or something to that affect. My dad reads your blog and I tell him when you've posted something here on SoSH, so he's pretty aware of how you feel about this situation (at least what you've said publicly prior to this thread which I haven't yet told him about). Seeing that you "called him out" gives credence to what my dad has been saying all along - that I was wrong about Manny being a complete man-child who simply doesn't get it and doesn't have a mean bone in his body (well-loved by his teammates and those who know him well) and more of what my dad has always called him - an asshole who completely disrespects the game.

Johnny Pesky's name came into play earlier in this thread. I know you stated something along the lines of Johnny kicking anyone's ass if they spoke ill of the Splinter. It's well-known how close they were and how much he respected Ted. I've also seen Johnny around Manny and Papi several times, hugging and being hugged by these giants in what appeared to me to be a sign of two-way respect. I have a hard time believing that Johnny Pesky would tolerate/condone/associate with someone who clearly didn't give a shit about the game, so seeing him with Manny and hearing people say that teammates have been disgusted with his lack of effort just doesn't jive with the images I've seen. I'd love to hear from Johnny what his thoughts regarding the Manny situation are (although I'm not expecting him to speak publicly about it). You don't get much more old-school than Johnny. Has he said anything to players that can be shared publicly?

Regardless, Manny will be a first-ballot HOFer and someone I really enjoyed seeing step to the plate in pressure situations. I gave him the benefit of the doubt for the Rivera at-bat (as I didn't see it, only read accounts of it) but I never bought the knee stuff. Seeing Manny hustle down the line in LA as I have the few times I've watched him there (hitting well north of .600, btw), it pisses me off a bit. I, like many others here, would prefer to think of the affable Manny who could swing a bat better than anyone we've seen in our lifetime and push the other Manny being Manny stuff off on the fact that he just "doesn't get it."

edit: a Manny moment - I was fortunate enough to attend the July 28th game against Anaheim thanks to a lurker who read my plea for tickets while my family and I were in Boston. We sat out in section 36, row 20. Several rows behind me and further down the row toward the aisle a fan decided to yell out to Manny. This guy was hysterical, the kind of bleacher bum you love to be around. He wasn't obnoxious, didn't say anything that made me cringe in front of my four children, nothing like that. He was just having fun. He yells, "Hey, Manny Ramirez, how about a wave buddy?" Manny turns toward our section slightly, smiles, and waves. Needless to say, the section goes crazy. Here's this nutty guy yelling from about as far away in the CF bleachers as he can be to a first-ballot HOFer in LF and he gets a good reaction from him. Mind you, this is in the middle of the whole "Manny needs to be traded" fiasco where you might expect someone to close themselves down when dealing with the fans, or possibly becoming downright surly. Not Manny. That's the Manny being Manny I like to remember. The guy who loved the attention, seems to really enjoy and appreciate the fans, and is just a big goofy kid - not the Manny being Manny that takes nearly 6 seconds to run to 1st base when he could break up a no-hitter or beat out a DP. I'm sure they can be the same guy, but I hope that when I read about this team 25 years from now, this image of him won't be too badly tarnished. I understand someone like G38 having to explain to his kids that what they just saw was not how the game should be played, God knows I've had to explain that to my two oldest many times over myself. But man, could he swing the lumber.

Edited by Yaz4Ever, 06 August 2008 - 11:51 AM.


#146 Rough Carrigan


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Posted 06 August 2008 - 11:41 AM

My question is this. How did a city so steeped in tradition and filled with blue collar people become so ok with a man sticking his middle finger up to anyone in the world that would look? The power of the home run and sweet swing is pretty amazing when you think about it. You want to rail on me here because my arm blew out and I didn't pitch this year that's fine. But to do this in a vacuum when you all read and heard the same things I did is somewhat, I don't know the word but it's something.

I think a large part is, of course, the fact that Manny was such a brilliant hitter. I think another large factor is that his previous policy of not talking to the press was, whether by design or inadvertantly, a *brilliant* rope-a-dope strategy. CHB et al would try and whip up a frenzy against Manny and fans would never hear Manny's side of things. And, on some level, even the most casual fans reading CHB could sense that the guy is a jerk. So, they've got a jerk railing on Manny but no response. It was not totally unreasonable for fans to side with Manny because he was smart or lucky enough not to let them realize what he was like. Actors (not thespians in this case) are often judged as closely as actions. By not talking and staying beyond judgement, Manny let the inevitable negative assessment of CHB destroy CHB's case.

#147 yep

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 11:42 AM

Gehrig38 may have inadvertently proved his own point by picking Ted Williams as an example. The more we Google up evidence that he was a seriously flawed teammate and human being, the more it illustrates that we as fans (and perhaps even legendary players who are somewhat removed from other legendary players) *do* have an irrational tendency to overlook/forgive the shortcomings of successful athletes.

SoSH is almost certainly more objective than most, but we see on-field performance exhibited as evidence of "character" in countless aphorisms, commentaries, articles, books, barroom discussions, and radio/TV broadcasts. It is a platitude and a cliche, so common that listing examples is silly.

How *could* we cheer for villains or boo heroes?

One can argue about whether or not it's not cool to talk publicly about that stuff regarding your own teammates, but it certainly doesn't stop most of us from wanting to hear about it. And whether "Curt being Curt" is more or less forgivable than "Manny being Manny" seems like kind of an academic question at best, whose answer is mostly dependent on who your favorite player is. The very fact that not being on the active roster is presented as more evidence that he should keep his mouth shut reinforces the point that moral shortcomings are seen as more forgivable for people who throw baseballs better than everyone else.

#148 Gehrig38


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Posted 06 August 2008 - 11:48 AM

For the record, I 100% support Schilling's right to hold these opinions and 100% understand his viewpoint regarding Manny. It would piss me off too if I thought someone wasn't trying hard.

That said, this is all about calling out players on the Sox.

Here's the thing he's totally missing. This has nothing to do with Manny or Schilling or anyone else. This is about Boston fans loving the Red Sox. Us fans would prefer Manny to have tried harder just like we would like Schilling to stop running his mouth. No one is perfect, but they're all a part of the team, so these are the things that we fans put up with.


I forgot to post in my last one, that ya, you are right, still an idiot but right. In some ways I do want to be treated differently but not one of them is or has to do with being lauded or complimented.

And really, don't talk about me in a thread I am actively posting in, in 3rd person, it's very Rickey Henderson like and uncomfortable!

And another point, let's dismiss with the "thought someone wasn't trying hard", that's not admitting something we all saw and all knew.

There is also another thing I need to sit down and think through. People for years have ranted about me being a media whore and attention starved. Believe it or not nothing could be farther from the truth except when it comes to 38 Studios. My interaction with the media the past 10 years or so is as much if not all reactive as it ever was pro-active. The Butch Stearns call was about Pedro, hell 99.9% of every call in I've done outside the Tuesday show has been in reaction to a mediot talking about a teammate.

That being said I find myself in an odd position now with the EEI show. I am no longer a part of this team and am not around them day to day and the show is really the only venue for any of this to continue. Regardless of CHB's desire to paint it as anything other than what it truly is, a vehicle to raise a LARGE amount of money for ALS, it isn't. I'll have to think on that one.

Going to log into WoW now. Appreciate the conversation, learned some things and got new perspective on a few others.

Oh and one last point. I have been a HUGE Jason Bay fan since the day he came up in SD. I think people are VASTLY underestimating how good he is, and not really ready for how good he's going to be here.

And fwiw I offered up my number to him the other day, free. Told him I sure as hell hadn't earned the right to wear it but if he wanted it, it was there. He was almost nonchalant about it, no need, no biggie. Damn I'd have had a heart attack at 29 over my number. I think 44 is working out just fine.

#149 Rocco Graziosa


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Posted 06 August 2008 - 11:50 AM

You're an idiot. I've spent my whole life, professional life, being lauded and complimented by people that have no idea who I am. I sure as hell am not coming here to get validation or reinforcement.

I'm passionate, and likely irrational if I could take an objective look at some of the things I say.

What I do expect and often times don't get is credit for having insight perspective you can't and don't have.

Ya I guess in saying that you are right. When I tell you or anyone here about the why's and how's of some personal team situation I'm not taking a stab in the dark, I'm telling you as someone that is lockering next to and living with the subject at hand.

You want to tell me what you THINK of the Manny situation, that's cool and totally relevant. Without being completely transparent I am telling you exactly HOW and exactly WHY some of this stuff happens. I know, I live it, and have lived it for 22 years.

That age old 'chemistry' argument? I don't give a rats ass what anyone says or thinks I can tell you it is an absolute guaranteed certainty when talking about the impact chemistry has on winning/losing.

Clutch? SOSH members are forever arguing if 'it exists'. In the manner you are looking at it, and what you are looking for maybe it doesn't, but I can assure you, promise you, it does. Is it a definable stat? No maybe it isn't but when I hear a pitcher talk about facing David and his thought process I can tell you that not only does it exist but it does win and lose game. Maybe not in ways you want or think, but it's there. Clutch is what causes men to act and react with seemingly no triggering event, and David Ortiz is a prime example of that. One only has to talk and listen to guys who have faced him to know. Don't the post game press conferences and managers discussions reinforce 'clutch' when they talk about a 7th or 8th inning and how it might affect having to face David again?

I am, as usual blabbing and off tangent, but I guess in a twisted way I am agreeing with you but didn't know it. I do want to be treated differently when we are discussing things like this because at the end of the day I know the truth and the facts and you don't. Wow that sounds so 8 year oldish...

It's not intended to be a 'nanny nanny boo boo' but it sure sounds like it.


This is a fantastic post, but I'm not sure many here want to hear this. They don't want to hear about the ways Ramirez's actions might have actually hurt team chemistry, and how important that chemistry is to a winning ballclub. But one thing is for certain.......Curt Schilling is about 1 million percent more credible than anyone else here when posting about what goes on behind closed doors and how players actions on and off the field effect a major league baseball team.

#150 Myt1


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Posted 06 August 2008 - 11:51 AM

My question is this. How did a city so steeped in tradition and filled with blue collar people become so ok with a man sticking his middle finger up to anyone in the world that would look? The power of the home run and sweet swing is pretty amazing when you think about it.


I'll address this, I guess.

I think that many people here realize that issues often arise between boss/employee or labor/management. Such problems are rarely one-sided. When there are leaks and then denials, and whispers in the press, and lots of unnamed sources, management appears to be acting in bad faith. Had this been a one-time issue, I don't think anyone would bat an eye. Actually, I think a substantial number of fans have unconditionally accepted the version of this story in which Manny is the only bad guy.

But blue collar people don't like being lied to or having the wool pulled over their eyes. Given the fiasco that surrounded Epstein's re-signing/resigning, this front office has a history. There seemed to have been some dirty pool there, and I believe this despite the fact that Theo's never hit an important HR. And when a journalist can't resist using this sideshow to either minimize or exorcize his own personal demons for having sat on his hands while his supposedly beloved game was overrun by cheaters, it becomes clear that the story is being reported not to inform, but to further at least one, and likely multiple personal agenda. One side of this issue has been reported ad nauseam. I think the front office took advantage of the fact that the Boston media has always got the long knives handy. The very fact that bad-mouthing Manny pre-trade would seem to be so completely counter to the front-office's interest in keeping his trade value as high as possible makes me think that this was a personal issue and that the parties weren't exactly blessed with an overabundance of rationality.

I've little doubt that Manny was probably a raging pain in the ass to play with and manage. Throwing down a 60 year-old is pretty much inexcusable, and not subject to a whole lot of gray area. However, I've also got little doubt that the front office leaked information and speculation with regard to other incidents in an effort to make Manny appear to be the only bad guy, and this probably poisoned the well and further damaged the relationship. It's a bit insulting (or, probably more accurately, exasperating) when people assume that a failure to unconditionally accept that Manny was the only party who should bear any blame for this situation stems from blind hero worship. Sometimes we just don't like having the media piss in our ears and tell us its raining.

Edited by Myt1, 06 August 2008 - 12:14 PM.