1215 replies to this topic

[Sille Skrub]

now it seems like the Sox are getting a shit sandwich in regards to the secondary parts.

Again, we should wait until the particulars of said shit sandwich come out.

We really have no idea at this point.

(par for the course, I know)

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

It seems that the original rumor of the trade completely misrepresented how each club was valuing Ramirez and the Marlins prospects (getting Hermida+Tucker+Stanton), now it seems like the Sox are getting a shit sandwich in regards to the secondary parts.

I think the original rumor was probably just bullshit, as the Marlins later came out to say that they were certainly not trading Stanton.

Bay is really a huge upgrade on Hermida, at least over the rest of this season and next year.

[Harry Hooper]

Per WEEI, Steve Phillips {note: he wasn't named but they referred to "the old Mets guy"} just said (on ESPN?) that Jason Bay is being traded to the Marlins. Manny is not involved.

Edited by Harry Hooper, 30 July 2008 - 09:56 PM.

[yecul]

Again, we should wait until the particulars of said shit sandwich come out.

We really have no idea at this point.

(par for the course, I know)

Here's what we do know: Boston is going to do nothing to improve themselves for this year.

I guess that can be considered a good thing if one happens to dislike Manny. Or if you think it's irrelevant and their chances this year are going to get worse as the season progresses. Frankly, I think that's how the front office sees this season.

[SoxScout]

Source: http://community.pos...talk-3-way.aspx

How is the Pirates GM, who got crap for Nady and Marte, coming away with the the young stud and two good prospects? This is freaking ridiculous.

[Worst Trade Evah]

If Manny is moved, I'm positive the general sense will be annoyance that that's all he fetched. Face it folks -- he really does not have that much value right now. The Sox are in a bad spot. Just think about the problem his knee poses. If he's telling the truth, he has a knee injury which might flare up at any point and keep him out of games down the stretch. If he isn't telling the truth, that's kind of worse. It's a little like Nomar's achilles heel injury in 2004, and the uncertainty about his playing time. Theo values certainty, and he has spoken about the need occasionally of change for changes sake.

He's 36, has no real position defensively, and a history of conflict with his team. The prospects he'll fetch when he leaves are a pretty major source of his value. If any real value is coming back, then some prospects will have to get moved with Manny.

I thought he'd probably just stay and finish out the two months, but if they fear he'll dog it for two months and just be a huge distraction, then moving him makes sense.

People always over-rate the impact of star players. Baseball is a big-time team game, and big stars just do not impact team fortunes in baseball the way people seem to think. Remember when ARod left the Mariners and the Rangers? And Manny isn't really even that big a star -- no where near ARod's class as a player. Even if we don't get a whole lot back for Manny, the team can be okay.

[BTHoops]

An article explaining arbitration process in baseball (short and to the point): http://baseball.suit...bitration_works

[E5 Yaz]

Per WEEI, Steve Phillips just said (on ESPN?) that Jason Bay is being traded to the Marlins. Manny is not involved.

Now, THAT would be a kick in the nuts

[SoxScout]

Per WEEI, Steve Phillips {note: he wasn't named but they referred to "the old Mets guy"} just said (on ESPN?) that Jason Bay is being traded to the Marlins. Manny is not involved.

He is not on ESPN or ESPN2, so, maybe ESPN news.

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

Source: http://community.pos...talk-3-way.aspx

"Two elite prospects"

Well, I certainly don't like the sound of that, even if one seems to be going from the Marlins to the Pirates.

[TomRicardo]

Per WEEI, Steve Phillips {note: he wasn't named but they referred to "the old Mets guy"} just said (on ESPN?) that Jason Bay is being traded to the Marlins. Manny is not involved.

Wow thanks WEEI. Philips has not said that on ESPNNews. WEEI is the Fox News of sports radio.

[The Flying Dutchman]

Remember, that $12.5 million gap is a lot smaller when you add in the $7 million the Sox would supposedly continue to pay Manny the rest of this season. Is paying basically $14.5 million for Jason Bay's 2009 season really such a good deal?

Drew is a comparable player to Bay, He makes 14 mil a year for 4 more years. I think Bay for 1 year at 14.5 makes perfect sense.

[Harry Hooper]

Where could he have said this? The Cubs/Brewers game is on ESPN right now.

I have no idea, someone in the booth yelled it in to Mike Adams.



Addendum: apologies to all (including WEEI) if I mangled something, but that's what I thought they said.

Edited by Harry Hooper, 30 July 2008 - 10:06 PM.

[SouthernBoSox]

So someone yells at Mike in the booth and it just gets put on air?

You fucking suck WEEI.

Edited by SouthernBoSox, 30 July 2008 - 10:00 PM.

[HomeBrew1901]

He is not on ESPN or ESPN2, so, maybe ESPN news.

I've been watching ESPNnews for the last 30 minutes and the Steve Phillips portion that I have seen twice now, says Bays most likely going to land in Boston if anywhere not TAMPA.

They are reporting live now, Van Pelt and the other guy... of course Favre is more important so they are talking about him first.

[E5 Yaz]

They are reporting live now, Van Pelt and the other guy... of course Favre is more important so they are talking about him first.

Midwest coast bias

[TomRicardo]

Someone could probably call WEEI right now and say Manny killed Pedroia and they would run with it.

Edited by TomRicardo, 30 July 2008 - 10:02 PM.

[Rocco Graziosa]

Per WEEI, Steve Phillips {note: he wasn't named but they referred to "the old Mets guy"} just said (on ESPN?) that Jason Bay is being traded to the Marlins. Manny is not involved.

Could you imagine after all this nothing happens? His incendiary comments tonight coupled with this seemingly done deal and I can't see a scenario where Ramirez comes back and plays for the Red Sox, so I really hope they get this done.

[MikeGreenwell]

So because a trade blew up in the Red Sox faces last year they should just avoid all future trades at the deadline?

No, not at all, only that you can't argue that one unknown is uncertain while simultaneously claiming that the other unknown is a certainty.

I'm not saying that the trade would be good or bad, only that if anyone is going to doing armchair analysis of the alleged deal then do some analysis the whole alleged deal -- MLB teams do consider those picks to have significant value (we just saw it in the Teixeira deal yesterday and in the Sabathia deal before that) and there's certainly a lot less remaining uncertainty that Manny will be classified as a Type A player this coming winter than Bay will be classified as such after the 2009 season.

[Snodgrass'Muff]

Here's what we do know: Boston is going to do nothing to improve themselves for this year.

This is just incorrect. We don't know that at all. I've already posted a few numbers that show Bay and Manny to be similar offensive players. Here is another stat...

OPS+

Manny: 142
Bay: 137

Since Bay is obviously the better defensive player, the Red Sox will be improving in LF with this swap. The rest of the piece may or may not enhance/degrade the return for the Sox in total, but it is far from a certainty that the Sox are not going to improve themselves for this season.

[templeUsox]

Runs created/lost:

Defense:

(Fielding Bible):

Bay: -1
Ramirez: -15


Baserunning:

(bases added/taken away):

Bay: +23
Ramirez: -4

Hitting:

(batting runs created from THT):

Bay: 75
Ramirez: 70

(GPA)

Bay: .303
Ramirez: .301

YOU DECIDE.

Edited by templeUsox, 30 July 2008 - 10:07 PM.

[RS Union Local 282]

Ok, show me some examples in sports in which teams are allowed to actually draft picks in which teams have decided a pick in a draft two years away had more present day value than a pick in the next draft. What's your explanation for why NFL teams routinely get a better round pick in the next season's draft when they trade a current season pick?

And what certainty is there that Bay will end up being a Type A free agent after the 2009 season? Didn't the Sox play and lose that game with Gagne just last summer?

I support Rudy's point entirely and I'd go even further. 1st and 2nd round picks are way more projectable in the NFL. There are massive busts, of course, but I think on both the high and low ends, high impact football players are more predictable. Not that I can back that up. I can swear that way more rookie football player not only contribute but actually light the league on fire the same year they are drafted than in the MLB. Prior is the only one I can think of this moment that comes even close to things you seem to see in the NFL every year.

[RedOctober3829]

Not that I disagree with your general premise, but Jason Bay has only played in center for 38 games in his entire major league career. That's out of 436 games. That's only 8.7%.

He would not be an option in center for the Red Sox. Especially considering that this year he has Coco, Jacoby and Drew ahead of him and next year will have at least two of those and likely Moss (or another AAA outfielder if Moss is moved out). Bay is a corner outfielder in Fenway, mostly a left fielder if this trade happens.

I'm not saying he's an everyday CF option, but he could rotate through if needed.

Saty: I am not a fanboy. I am simply saying that if you are getting Jason Bay who is a similar offensive player RIGHT NOW for Manny(not comparing careers but at this point the numbers say they are) PLUS being a superior defender and baserunner then it's not a bad deal. We don't know what prospects are in the deal so reserve judgment on that part until we all know the facts.

Edit: if you don't believe me, see temple's post a couple above mine re: numbers.

We don't know if it's a shit sandwich so let's just cool it until we know the deal is actually going through and if so which prospects are in it.

Edited by RedOctober3829, 30 July 2008 - 10:07 PM.

[Jeff Van GULLY]

Haven't seen this:

MIAMI GARDENS — The Marlins have reached a tentative agreement to acquire Manny Ramirez from Boston as part of a three-team deal that will send Jeremy Hermida and three Florida prospects to Pittsburgh, an American League source said Wednesday night.

Officials with the Marlins and Red Sox did not confirm the deal but the source said a tentative agreement was reached about 10 p.m. Wednesday.


The Marlins will get Ramirez for Hermida, right-hander Ryan Tucker and two other prospects, with those four players being flipped to Pittsburgh for outfielder Jason Bay and left-hander John Grabow.

The Red Sox will send the Marlins enough cash to cover the remainder of Ramirez contract, as well as an unnamed prospect.

Pittsburgh gets Hermida and two prospects - two from Florida and one from Boston. One of the Marlins' prospects is believed to be Tucker.

Link'

[Clears Cleaver]

and now it is officially ti.me to go to bed. Staying up tonight jsut seems like a massvie cluterf---

and replacing Manny with Bay, even if you think it is a slight improvement, is not enough to turn this into an elite team. they still suck (bottome decile) at CF, SS and C, and their middle relief and #5 starter are below average. With Manny, Bay or Hermida, they are probably not good enough to win it all this year and may not be good enough to make the playoffs

Edited by Clears Cleaver, 30 July 2008 - 10:09 PM.

[yecul]

This is just incorrect. We don't know that at all. I've already posted a few numbers that show Bay and Manny to be similar offensive players. Here is another stat...

OPS+

Manny: 142
Bay: 137

Since Bay is obviously the better defensive player, the Red Sox will be improving in LF with this swap. The rest of the piece may or may not enhance/degrade the return for the Sox in total, but it is far from a certainty that the Sox are not going to improve themselves for this season.

1. There is a league differential.

2. Fine I will change my comment to nothing significant. If you think this is a stand pat and all will be well type of team we're watching these days then good for you. I think they could use a kick in the butt and a little help. Manny > Bay doesn't equal that in my book, but to each their own.

[The Flying Dutchman]

Haven't seen this:


Link'

That permutation looks like Grabow to Fla, with the Sox recieving the third Fla prospect.

If that Prospect is Tucker, I imagine the sox prospect is a good one.

Edited by The Flying Dutchman, 30 July 2008 - 10:10 PM.

[Snodgrass'Muff]

1. There is a league differential.

2. Fine I will change my comment to nothing significant. If you think this is a stand pat and all will be well type of team we're watching these days then good for you. I think they could use a kick in the butt and a little help. Manny > Bay doesn't equal that in my book, but to each their own.

I'd consider shipping Manny out a kick in the ass for the team. Can you think of a bigger move to make in that regard?

[RedOctober3829]

Haven't seen this:
Link'

Edit: missed the unnamed prospect part. Apologies.

Edited by RedOctober3829, 30 July 2008 - 10:11 PM.

[HomeBrew1901]

According to Olney on ESPNnews....

Bay to Sox with Grabo

Manny to Marlins

Prospects to Pitt.

Crux of issue is if the Sox FO thinks they can get Manny to play the rest of the season and not pull any of his crap.

Still not likely this trade will happen and Manny can kill the deal with his no trade cause.

[E5 Yaz]

The Marlins will get Ramirez for Hermida, right-hander Ryan Tucker and two other prospects, with those four players being flipped to Pittsburgh for outfielder Jason Bay and left-hander John Grabow.

The Red Sox will send the Marlins enough cash to cover the remainder of Ramirez contract, as well as an unnamed prospect.

Pittsburgh gets Hermida and two prospects - two from Florida and one from Boston. One of the Marlins' prospects is believed to be Tucker.

The math doesn't add up.

[Harry Hooper]

The Marlins will get Ramirez for Hermida, right-hander Ryan Tucker and two other prospects, with those four players being flipped to Pittsburgh for outfielder Jason Bay and left-hander John Grabow.

The Red Sox will send the Marlins enough cash to cover the remainder of Ramirez contract, as well as an unnamed prospect.

Pittsburgh gets Hermida and two prospects - two from Florida and one from Boston. One of the Marlins' prospects is believed to be Tucker.



OK, one of the Marlins' prospects just disappeared. Shades of 2004 all over again.

[E5 Yaz]

Crux of issue is if the Sox FO thinks they can get Manny to play the rest of the season and not pull any of his crap.

I hope they phrase it just that way to Manny

[bosox79]

They get 2 prospects, 2 from Florida and 1 from Boston.

Thats 3.

[ThreeIfBaerga]

What has always intrigued me about this time of the year is how the the front office handles, what must be, multiple potential deals being discussed simutaneously. Of course, I realize most of this stuff will never be shared with outsiders.

Would Theo simply delegate certain deals to Cherington or Hoyer so he could focus all his attention on one specific front? Basically, I'm wondering if they break off into teams or if they are all working together.

If they are operating in small teams, do they periodically get together to assess the status of each deal and weigh the strengths and weaknesses of each deal to determine which of the potential deals have the most potential value.

That's a documentary I'd love to see. Various camera crews with different teams following the week before the trade deadline and then cut like an episode of '24'.

[RedOctober3829]

According to Olney on ESPNnews....

Bay to Sox with Grabo

Manny to Marlins

Prospects to Pitt.

Crux of issue is if the Sox FO thinks they can get Manny to play the rest of the season and not pull any of his crap.

Still not likely this trade will happen and Manny can kill the deal with his no trade cause.

This is like the hot, hot girlfriend you have been dating for 3 years and you are finally sick of her bullshit, but you can't close the deal on the breakup.

[SoxScout]

Imagine if this all gets worked out and Manny just says no?

[E5 Yaz]

Imagine if this all gets worked out and Manny just says no?

it's easy, if you try.

[Montana Fan]

Imagine if this all gets worked out and Manny just says no?

That's what I'm saying. Manny is just goofy enough to crap on everybody's parade.

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

Imagine if this all gets worked out and Manny just says no?

Part of me is wishing this happens just for the sheer comedic value.











But its a small part of me.

[shoebox91]

Imagine if this all gets worked out and Manny just says no?

wouldn't surprise me one bit.

[Harry Hooper]

They get 2 prospects, 2 from Florida and 1 from Boston.

Thats 3.

The report says

1) Marlins give up Hermida, Tucker, and 2 other prospects for Ramirez, and Boston wheels the ex-Marlins to the Pirates for Bay


Then the report says

2) Pirates get Hermida, Tucker, and 2 prospects (one from Florida and one from Boston)


One of the Marlins' prospects vanished.

[E5 Yaz]

The report says

1) Marlins give up Hermida, Tucker, and 2 other prospects for Ramirez, and Boston wheels the ex-Marlins to the Pirates for Bay
Then the report says

2) Pirates get Hermida, Tucker, and 2 prospects (one from Florida and one from Boston)
One of the Marlins' prospects vanished.

He goes to the Twins

[Jeff Van GULLY]

Posted by Peter Gammons
As midnight approached on Wednesday night, officials from the Marlins and Red Sox said a deal involving Manny Ramirez was not done. Indications from Pittsburgh were that the Pirates were not satisfied with the players they were receiving in exchange for sending Jason Bay to Boston. And in California, Ramirez's agent, Scott Boras, said he had been told nothing, which means nothing has been completed in terms of Ramirez waving his no-trade rights or in completing paperwork to send to the commissioner's office.

So, the complicated three-way deal may go down close to Thursday's 4 p.m. deadline. Ramirez wants out, and will go to Florida. The Marlins want him, and what he means to their pennant chances and pursuit of a new ballpark. The Red Sox clearly are willing to finance Ramirez's exit.

But the value of the young players was a sticking point late into the night, and one Red Sox official said, "this is anything but done."

The Nomar Garciaparra deal in 2004 went down to minutes before the deadline, and there was so much confusion the Twins never received the second prospect they thought they were owed. This may be Nomar Redux.

Link

CorsiBot is slacking


Also of note, Pittsburgh ownership already nixed one Jason Bay deal and those guys are the Worst. I would not be surprised if Pittsburgh backed out of this due to ownership.

Edited by Jeff Van GULLY, 30 July 2008 - 10:26 PM.

[Clears Cleaver]

Manny tomorrow at 4:05pm: "I love it here in Boston and I hope I can finish my career here. the fans are the best and my teammates are the best. I know I said some stuff in the alst days but I jsut want to go and play baseball and ahve fun adn try to win THE World Series again, man"

Edited by Clears Cleaver, 30 July 2008 - 10:25 PM.

[TeddyLepcio]

If he refuses the Sox should just say FU we are picking up your option for next year and if you want a trade you will approve it to whoever we want or you are stuck here. He would cave

Edited by TeddyLepcio, 30 July 2008 - 10:25 PM.