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Sox in "serious" talks with Marlins; Enjoy the Miami nightlife, Manny


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#251 URI


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Posted 30 July 2008 - 04:23 PM

Willingham is a fifth outfielder. I would be shocked if the Red Sox asked for him. A name mentioned in the Sports Illustrated online story, Jeff Allison, is equally ridiculous as a potential piece of a deal with the Marlins.


He's the 3rd best hitter on a team that is currently 2 games out of first place. Ouch.

#252 Drocca


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Posted 30 July 2008 - 04:23 PM

Posting line-ups of players not on the team over and over and over sucks.

#253 Alcohol&Overcalls

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Posted 30 July 2008 - 04:23 PM

Willingham is a fifth outfielder. I would be shocked if the Red Sox asked for him. A name mentioned in the Sports Illustrated online story, Jeff Allison, is equally ridiculous as a potential piece of a deal with the Marlins.


Yeah - tons of 5th OFers rock a .289/.381/.512 (.893) triple-slash on the road - or did you forget what a soul-sucking black hole Huizenga Stadium is for offense?

The guy is injured a lot, there are legit concerns about his back, and he's not young - but his profile is definitely "starting corner OFer" and not "defensive replacement" and the inference otherwise is pretty bad form.

Allison's K/BB rate has taken a step back and his "makeup issues" will dog him, but he was once a top draft choice and a relatively promising prospect at age 20 . . . what's so ridiculous about that?

#254 URI


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Posted 30 July 2008 - 04:23 PM

And guys, can we hold off on lineup talk until a trade is done?

I don't want to muddle the thread too much.

#255 Clears Cleaver


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Posted 30 July 2008 - 04:26 PM

Nomar's OPS+ at the time of that trade was +118. Manny's is +142. There's not a whole lot of comparison there in terms of production. The 2004 Red Sox also had Manny Ramirez and David Ortiz to help shoulder the load the rest of the way. The 2008 lineup is in no way ready to compensate for losing its cleanup hitter.


Let's be honest here. The front office has not exactly hit the ball out of the park on their trades the last four years since the nomar trade. Since the nomar deal, they have done a good job using their financial advantages in the draft on top of drafting well instead of signing FAs. The only trade that has been positive was hanley for beckett/lowell and that worked again because lowell got better and had the money to take on that risk.

The trust should come from what is clearly a superior advance scouting dept, technical department and system wide develpment strategy. I am not sure their ability to evaluate major league talent is any better than anyone else's based on the last four years.

#256 The Boomer

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Posted 30 July 2008 - 04:26 PM

There needs to be a sticky of all the positives that Hermida brings to the table when he is traded to us. People are going to look at his slash line for this year only and want to burn down Fenway while a few of us celebrate (not the best word to use seeing Manny leave us, but more like accept and be excited about the future).


If the Sox trade Manny for either Kemp or Hermida, the deal will be compared favorably to that Nomar trade Theo pulled off in 2004 except that either of these future All Star outfielders will be under the team's control at a bargain price without the possibility of an Orlando Cabrera free agency walk off. Kemp and Hermida would both produce more offensively moving from NL pitcher's parks to the AL. Hermida has a great batting eye and Kemp is a 5 tools outfielder. Both are more than adequate defensively for LF in Fenway (with Kemp having the ability to play CF and Hermida RF). Hermida has battled injuries in his early career and is a great "buy low" candidate. Kemp had reported attitude problems that will be insignificant (for what he costs in terms of salary) compared to Manny being Manny. Getting either of those young outfielders (with significant ML experience) or somebody comparable would be a real coup for Theo. Eating Manny's salary for the rest of this year is a small price to pay for this kind of future upside. The beauty of this is that, cash will be freed up to add another decent bat this winter in free agency or trade. To me, a deal for either of these players is a no brainer provided that none of the top youngsters with the Sox are sent to Florida (if the Sox pay the balance of Manny's 2008 contract).

#257 URI


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Posted 30 July 2008 - 04:29 PM

If the Sox trade Manny for either Kemp or Hermida, the deal will be compared favorably to that Nomar trade Theo pulled off in 2004 except that either of these future All Star outfielders will be under the team's control at a bargain price without the possibility of an Orlando Cabrera free agency walk off. Kemp and Hermida would both produce more offensively moving from NL pitcher's parks to the AL. Hermida has a great batting eye and Kemp is a 5 tools outfielder. Both are more than adequate defensively for LF in Fenway (with Kemp having the ability to play CF and Hermida RF). Hermida has battled injuries in his early career and is a great "buy low" candidate. Kemp had reported attitude problems that will be insignificant (for what he costs in terms of salary) compared to Manny being Manny. Getting either of those young outfielders (with significant ML experience) or somebody comparable would be a real coup for Theo. Eating Manny's salary for the rest of this year is a small price to pay for this kind of future upside. The beauty of this is that, cash will be freed up to add another decent bat this winter in free agency or trade. To me, a deal for either of these players is a no brainer provided that none of the top youngsters with the Sox are sent to Florida (if the Sox pay the balance of Manny's 2008 contract).


We really have gotten to the point where trading Manny Ramirez for Jeremy Hermida is "buying low" on Hermida?

#258 Buzzkill Pauley


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Posted 30 July 2008 - 04:29 PM

Since the current offense (with Manny) is not providing enough offense, downgrading at one position would certainly not provide enough for the remaining two months. This trade would be, essentially, punting on the season, which might be OK given the present circumstances. But enough offense? No.


Do you mean the not enough offense that's second in the AL in runs scored? Or the not enough offense that forms half of the AL-best run differential?

#259 Snodgrass'Muff


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Posted 30 July 2008 - 04:34 PM

Do you mean the not enough offense that's second in the AL in runs scored? Or the not enough offense that forms half of the AL-best run differential?


Maybe he meant the not enough offense that leads the AL in OBP and is 4th in SLG.... after 2 months of Ortiz on the DL. I don't think people realize how good this offense really is. If they move Manny out for Hermida, the offense will still be one of the best in the league.

#260 5belongstoGeorge


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Posted 30 July 2008 - 04:34 PM

We really have gotten to the point where trading Manny Ramirez for Jeremy Hermida is "buying low" on Hermida?

It seems like the noise coming out of the Red Sox FO (and a certain segment of the Red Sox fan base) indicates that dumping Manny at most any price is a bargain.

It would be a shame if personal/emotional/subjective concerns drove this trade rather than baseball sense.

#261 The Boomer

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Posted 30 July 2008 - 04:36 PM

We really have gotten to the point where trading Manny Ramirez for Jeremy Hermida is "buying low" on Hermida?


Hermida has generally been a disappointment but to guage his upside (based on his actual production) somebody should post his second half stats from 2007. He had and OPS of more or less than .900 for that half of the season playing half of his games in that steamy Florida canyon they call a ballpark.

#262 Savin Hillbilly


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Posted 30 July 2008 - 04:37 PM

This is sarcasm, right ? Long day here at the office and maybe I'm not picking it up. In the event you are serious - you are OK with trading Manny for Hermida and a prospect ? One of the most prolific, albeit spacey, hitters in MLB today ? For Hermida ?

Hermida is a guy who had a 125 OPS+ last year at age 23 and who is, depending on who you're talking to, either an average or a plus defensive outfielder. He's taken a mild step back overall this year, but he's still got an .874 road OPS this season. He has power potential and strike zone judgment (>.100 minor league ISO-D), and he uses the whole ballpark. Take a look at his hit charts at mlb.com....the kid is born to hit in Fenway. We're talking about a serious young talent here, not a spare part.

And on the other side, we're talking about a guy who has gone from "spacey" to downright disruptive, who is 36 years old, and who will certainly be gone next year no matter what happens now. So it's really a question of Hermida + prospect or two draft picks. Given that choice, I'd do the deal in a heartbeat.

#263 WayBackVazquez


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Posted 30 July 2008 - 04:38 PM

Kemp and Hermida would both produce more offensively moving from NL pitcher's parks to the AL.


You mean like Miguel Cabrera did? The pitching is worse in the NL, and the only studies I've seen indicate that overall, hitters switching to the AL do worse, while those switching to the NL perform better.

Here's one.

#264 Pumpsie


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Posted 30 July 2008 - 04:39 PM

Do you mean the not enough offense that's second in the AL in runs scored? Or the not enough offense that forms half of the AL-best run differential?


I mean the offense that we've seen for the last month or two. The one that just can't get the big hit when it needs it, leaving us with a lot of one and two-run losses and an underperforming Pythag. Since the first couple of months of the season, when we had the best record in baseball and the #1 offense, a lot of players have hit the skids, notably Tek, Ellsbury, Cora, even Lowell now. THAT offense, our current one, is underperforming. Removing Manny from the current lineup and subbing Hermida will not get it done if that's all that happens. The April offense is a distant memory unless you think that Tek, Ellsbury and the other batting culprits are going to regain their earlier production. I don't think that is realistic.

#265 TomRicardo


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Posted 30 July 2008 - 04:40 PM

So it's really a question of Hermida + prospect or two draft picks. Given that choice, I'd do the deal in a heartbeat.


But it is not, it is taking the most productive player in your lineup after the break and a top ten hitter in the league out during a playoff race + Hermida + prospect or keeping Manny in the line up plus control of his options and two draft picks.

#266 Dogman2


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Posted 30 July 2008 - 04:47 PM

But it is not, it is taking the most productive player in your lineup after the break and a top ten hitter in the league out during a playoff race + Hermida + prospect or keeping Manny in the line up plus control of his options and two draft picks.


Thats the crux of the entire argument right there. The FO holds the cards, why not have Manny following Boras' advice and play for a 3-4 year contract through the playoffs on our side. We, as TRic said, control him.

#267 Quintanariffic

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Posted 30 July 2008 - 04:48 PM

But it is not, it is taking the most productive player in your lineup after the break and a top ten hitter in the league out during a playoff race + Hermida + prospect or keeping Manny in the line up plus control of his options and two draft picks.

It's not like those options have much value at this point. Do you seriously believe the Sox would exercise them with what we've seen and heard? And since Manny is a 10/5, you can't do a Sheffield, b/c he'll just veto the trade. It's two months of a pissed off Manny plus two draft picks for Hermida and a prospect.

Edited by Quintanariffic, 30 July 2008 - 04:48 PM.


#268 The Boomer

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Posted 30 July 2008 - 04:50 PM

Hermida has generally been a disappointment but to guage his upside (based on his actual production) somebody should post his second half stats from 2007. He had and OPS of more or less than .900 for that half of the season playing half of his games in that steamy Florida canyon they call a ballpark.


Here are his 2007 full season stats away from Florida:


Category G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS OBP SLG AVG TB SF SH HBP IBB GDP
Away 63 219 34 71 17 1 10 34 28 57 2 2 .401 .548 .324 120 3 0 2 2 5

Here is this year so far:

Away 51 205 38 59 12 1 11 29 18 51 0 0 .357 .517 .288 106 0 0 4 1 3

In the AL, a full season BA near .300, 25-30 HR and an OPS near .900 is projectible.

#269 The Boomer

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Posted 30 July 2008 - 04:52 PM

You mean like Miguel Cabrera did? The pitching is worse in the NL, and the only studies I've seen indicate that overall, hitters switching to the AL do worse, while those switching to the NL perform better.

Here's one.


Detroit is arguably the worst hitter's park in the AL.

#270 SoxScout


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Posted 30 July 2008 - 04:53 PM

Red Sox and Marlins are in SERIOUS trade talks according to ESPN and McAdam

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Posted 30 July 2008 - 04:53 PM

WEEI: Red Sox in "serious" conversation with Florida Marlins.

#272 SoxFanPJ


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Posted 30 July 2008 - 04:53 PM

Gammons on ESPN News right now. ...

Also

The Marlins may be about to make a huge splash, as they seem to be the team in most serious discussions about disgruntled Boston outfielder Manny Ramirez. The deal would be for outfielder Jeremy Hermida and prospects, and would certainly strengthen the one-dimensional Marlins offense for the stretch run. But apparently the fact that Florida and Philadelphia have pursued Ramirez isn't enough to prod Mets ownership into signing off on the run Omar Minaya would like to make at him.


http://www.nj.com/sp..._pm_update.html

#273 Savin Hillbilly


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Posted 30 July 2008 - 04:54 PM

But it is not, it is taking the most productive player in your lineup after the break and a top ten hitter in the league out during a playoff race + Hermida + prospect or keeping Manny in the line up plus control of his options and two draft picks.

Sorry, I should have said that's the choice for the long-term. Short-term, yes, you're replacing Manny with Hermida....which will hurt the offense a bit. How much? Well, according to THT, Manny has been responsible for 3 more win shares than Hermida so far this year, and since the season is 2/3 over that means that we should expect replacing Manny with Hermida to cost us 1.5 wins.

But that's assuming that Hermida's performance doesn't tick upward when he leaves Florida, which, considering his .632/.874 home/road OPS split, seems like a dubious assumption. So we're probably talking about a 1-win difference, at most. For the long-term benefit of the deal, I think that's a reasonable price to pay.

#274 Guest_Corsi Combover_*

Posted 30 July 2008 - 04:54 PM

The Marlins may be about to make a huge splash, as they seem to be the team in most serious discussions about disgruntled Boston outfielder Manny Ramirez. The deal would be for outfielder Jeremy Hermida and prospects, and would certainly strengthen the one-dimensional Marlins offense for the stretch run. But apparently the fact that Florida and Philadelphia have pursued Ramirez isn't enough to prod Mets ownership into signing off on the run Omar Minaya would like to make at him.

Source: http://www.nj.com/sp..._pm_update.html

#275 WayBackVazquez


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Posted 30 July 2008 - 04:54 PM

Detroit is arguably the worst hitter's park in the AL.


That would be quite an argument, seeing as it's currently #1 in the league in Park Factor.

#276 SoxScout


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Posted 30 July 2008 - 04:55 PM

Jeremy Hermida and prospects?

Amazing!

#277 The Boomer

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Posted 30 July 2008 - 04:56 PM

Gammons on ESPN News right now. ...
QUOTEThe Marlins may be about to make a huge splash, as they seem to be the team in most serious discussions about disgruntled Boston outfielder Manny Ramirez. The deal would be for outfielder Jeremy Hermida and prospects, and would certainly strengthen the one-dimensional Marlins offense for the stretch run. But apparently the fact that Florida and Philadelphia have pursued Ramirez isn't enough to prod Mets ownership into signing off on the run Omar Minaya would like to make at him.
http://www.nj.com/sp..._pm_update.html


Manny for Hermida and prospects (presumably part of the price for eating the remainder of Manny's salary) is an even better deal.

#278 NomarRS05

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Posted 30 July 2008 - 04:56 PM

Here are his 2007 full season stats away from Florida:


Category G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS OBP SLG AVG TB SF SH HBP IBB GDP
Away 63 219 34 71 17 1 10 34 28 57 2 2 .401 .548 .324 120 3 0 2 2 5

Here is this year so far:

Away 51 205 38 59 12 1 11 29 18 51 0 0 .357 .517 .288 106 0 0 4 1 3

In the AL, a full season BA near .300, 25-30 HR and an OPS near .900 is projectible.


You're also assuming that a 23-year old who has been playing in an environment with literally no pressure to win and in a division with significantly weaker pitching is going to suddenly hit his stride once he arrives in Boston. There's going to be a ton of pressure on him to fill the shoes of the man he's replacing smack dab in the middle of a pennant race. On top of that, he would be facing American League pitchers for the first time in his life. Maybe in a year or two he could be a serviceable middle-of-the-lineup hitter, but to expect that out of him right away is overly optimistic to me.

#279 Andy Tomberlin

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Posted 30 July 2008 - 04:56 PM

Hearing from a buddy of mine who works for the Pirates that the Sox are in on Jason Bay (Tampa Bay and Arizona the others).

It's possible that they could use pieces from a Manny deal to acquire Bay, then use him in LF the rest of the way...

A huge grain of salt is added, FWIW.

Edited by Andy Tomberlin, 30 July 2008 - 04:58 PM.


#280 pdaj

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Posted 30 July 2008 - 04:57 PM

Hmm, wonder what prospects FL would be willing to send to Boston. If they're any good, they could help swing another deal for bullpen upgrades.

#281 Snodgrass'Muff


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Posted 30 July 2008 - 04:58 PM

You're also assuming that a 23-year old who has been playing in an environment with literally no pressure to win and in a division with significantly weaker pitching is going to suddenly hit his stride once he arrives in Boston. There's going to be a ton of pressure on him to fill the shoes of the man he's replacing smack dab in the middle of a pennant race. On top of that, he would be facing American League pitchers for the first time in his life. Maybe in a year or two he could be a serviceable middle-of-the-lineup hitter, but to expect that out of him right away is overly optimistic to me.


Except that he doesn't have to step up and be middle of the order hitter this year. This team still has quite a few guys they'd slot in there ahead of him after Manny is shipped out. Papi, Drew, Lowell and Youks come to mind as possibilities.

#282 Guest_Corsi Combover_*

Posted 30 July 2008 - 04:59 PM

Any word on what Gammons said on ESPNEWS?

#283 FredCDobbs

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Posted 30 July 2008 - 05:00 PM

This is sarcasm, right ? Long day here at the office and maybe I'm not picking it up. In the event you are serious - you are OK with trading Manny for Hermida and a prospect ? One of the most prolific, albeit spacey, hitters in MLB today ? For Hermida ?


Nope. I'm a Manny apologist. Two weeks ago I would never have said this. Just pick up his options each year and keep him. I've never wanted to trade Manny a day in my life, including for ARod, before two weeks ago. I know that every AL GM has prayed for him to be traded.

Now, however:

1. We have him for two more months. Two. He's made it clear he will now allow the options to BE an option. So, two more months instead to one year, possibly two. If you would argue the relationship could be patched up after this year, that is different, but that is not what's being reported right now. We would have Hermida for a number of years.

2. Concerning this year, when we are obviously a WS-caliber team, and based on all the noise, he seems to be dragging the team down right now. Yes, I'll use the word CHEMISTRY. I personally never felt that before. The past incidents always seemed like temporary arguements to me. This feels like a painful divorce. If so, that changes things enormously. I understand that it weakens the lineup, perhaps fatally, this year.

3. If he leaves after this year, an attempt to replace him has to be made. I'd rather give up no propects for Hermida or Kemp than pay Tex $150 mil or give four great propects for Holiday or Bay to try, and probably fail, to do the same thing.

Again, I understand how great he's been, believe me I do. But the end SEEMS to be here, right now, before we're ready for it, and that means it has to be dealt with. That is the key point and we all just have to make our best guess on it.

If Theo, Tito, and the players feel the pieces can be put back together again and the team can move forward this year then I'm all for that, but that's not the vibe I'm getting. Tito's eaten a lot of shit from Manny pretty much without complaint, so he's not a baby about this, nor has the team been.

Everything good ends. The enormously successful Manny era seems to be ending. It sucks, but there it is.

#284 ngruz25


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Posted 30 July 2008 - 05:00 PM

The lead story on Sportscenter is that the Sox are "on the verge" of trading Manny.

Edited by ngruz25, 30 July 2008 - 05:01 PM.


#285 bsj


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Posted 30 July 2008 - 05:00 PM

SportsCenter starting now. I expect the Manny situation to be near or at the top of the broadcast.

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Posted 30 July 2008 - 05:01 PM

Sportscenter teaser: "Red Sox on the verge of trading Manny Ramirez?"

#287 SoxFanPJ


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Posted 30 July 2008 - 05:04 PM

Posted by Buster Olney
With less than 24 hours before the trade deadline, the Red Sox are engaged in serious conversations to trade Manny Ramirez to the Florida Marlins, as well as other teams. If the Red Sox make a deal with the Marlins, it is likely they would kick in money to offset Ramirez's salary, and they would look for three young players in return -- perhaps outfielder Jeremy Hermida or outfielder Josh Willingham, plus pitchers.

The Red Sox have gone down this road many times before with Ramirez, seriously discussing a deal before pulling back -- but what might be different this time is that Ramirez apparently has just two months of regular season with the Red Sox, and Boston could be asking the internal question of how invested Ramirez will be in the last days of the year.


http://sports.espn.g..._trade_deadline

#288 Jnai


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Posted 30 July 2008 - 05:04 PM

Could you possibly move between two completely different media markets?

Go from one that sells out every game and has an intense fanbase to one that ranks last in attendance among all NL parks.

#289 pdaj

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Posted 30 July 2008 - 05:04 PM

Wouldn't it be smarter for the Red Sox to wait until AFTER the game tonight to complete the deal?

Unless they think Manny's head won't be in the game anyway with all these rumors swirling.

#290 Guest_Corsi Combover_*

Posted 30 July 2008 - 05:06 PM

From lurker Alskor:

Hey, just a lurker, but I heard the Gammo Interview.

He said:

- Theyre talking with Marlins "in negotiations" was the term used - though he didnt make it seem all that close.
- Bottom line on ESPN News reads a breaking news: "Red Sox in serious discussion with Marlins about trading Manny Ramirez" - seeming b/c of the Gammo report.
- It would be for Hermida and "a couple young players."
- Sox love Hermida.
- He was unsure if Sox would keep Hermida or swing him for a right handed bat.
- He took some more pot shots at Manny, ie for not running out that grounder last night.
- Concluded with "lets see if they can get this worked out"



#291 Bowlerman9


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Posted 30 July 2008 - 05:07 PM

Wouldn't it be smarter for the Red Sox to wait until AFTER the game tonight to complete the deal?

Unless they think Manny's head won't be in the game anyway with all these rumors swirling.


No, thats a bad business move. What if Manny pulls a hammy tonite and Florida backs out of the deal?

#292 Shelterdog


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Posted 30 July 2008 - 05:07 PM

Wouldn't it be smarter for the Red Sox to wait until AFTER the game tonight to complete the deal?

Unless they think Manny's head won't be in the game anyway with all these rumors swirling.


If they're this close to a deal, Manny won't even play.

EDIT: clarity

Edited by Shelterdog, 30 July 2008 - 05:09 PM.


#293 SoxFanPJ


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Posted 30 July 2008 - 05:07 PM

Gammons back on ESPN News:

Red Sox talking to a couple other teams as well, not sure where this is going to go...

Could lead to a three way that adds a RH bat, but we shall see.....

Deal is out there (with the Marlins) its being discussed....

#294 Guest_Corsi Combover_*

Posted 30 July 2008 - 05:08 PM

Sportscenter just passes along Buster's blog post. No new info.

#295 SoxScout


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Posted 30 July 2008 - 05:08 PM

Wouldn't it be smarter for the Red Sox to wait until AFTER the game tonight to complete the deal?

Unless they think Manny's head won't be in the game anyway with all these rumors swirling.

Oh yea, as Manny pops a hammy trotting down the 1b line in the 3rd inning... that would be brutal.

Edited by SoxScout, 30 July 2008 - 05:09 PM.


#296 Myt1


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Posted 30 July 2008 - 05:08 PM

With less than 24 hours before the trade deadline, the Red Sox are engaged in serious conversations to trade Manny Ramirez to the Florida Marlins, as well as other teams. If the Red Sox make a deal with the Marlins, it is likely they would kick in money to offset Ramirez's salary, and they would look for three young players in return -- perhaps outfielder Jeremy Hermida or outfielder Josh Willingham, plus pitchers.


Pulled from PJ's post above. Willingham was formerly a catcher, no? Any possibility of reconditioning him?

#297 E5 Yaz


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Posted 30 July 2008 - 05:09 PM

Someone should tell Edes to put down the pizza and see if there's more than his earlier "report" going on.

#298 TFisNEXT


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Posted 30 July 2008 - 05:10 PM

If they're this close, Manny won't play.



Wouldn't they have pulled him from the lineup by now if they were that close to a deal.

#299 The Boomer

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Posted 30 July 2008 - 05:10 PM

You're also assuming that a 23-year old who has been playing in an environment with literally no pressure to win and in a division with significantly weaker pitching is going to suddenly hit his stride once he arrives in Boston. There's going to be a ton of pressure on him to fill the shoes of the man he's replacing smack dab in the middle of a pennant race. On top of that, he would be facing American League pitchers for the first time in his life. Maybe in a year or two he could be a serviceable middle-of-the-lineup hitter, but to expect that out of him right away is overly optimistic to me.


Your handle suggests that you still believe trading your namesake (Nomar) in 2004 was a mistake. Despite my monicker, the second coming of my hero (the Boomer) from Milwaukee for (a Jeremy Hermida comparable) Cecil Cooper is still one of the worst trades ever in Sox history. Hermida has the potential to be a good hitter batting seventh in the revised lineup against lefties (with Youks, Ortiz, Lowell and Drew ahead of him). He could be their best #2 hitter against righties (with Ortiz, Drew, Youks and Lowell behind him). Hermida could actually give the batting order more flexibility (and less staleness) than Manny automatically pencilled in at #3. Manny will go to the HOF but there are some signs that he will go into a Sheffield type of decline in the foreseeable future. A GM who was unafraid to give up icons like Nomar and Pedro before too late won't be afraid to go younger with promising (major league level) talent before Manny's inevitable decline.

#300 URI


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Posted 30 July 2008 - 05:10 PM

Willingham isn't a young hitter.

I mean he is compared to Manny, but he's Youks' age.