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Sox interested in Teixeira?


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#1 Guest_Corsi Combover_*

Posted 13 July 2008 - 11:40 PM

Today, during Sunday Night Baseball on ESPN, Peter Gammons reported that the Braves offered Teixeira to the Boston Red Sox for Kevin Youkilis and a minor league prospect. The Red Sox said no because Youkilis has been on the team for a few years and wouldn't make sense to get rid of a productive first baseman who is a clubhouse favorite.

Source: http://bleacherrepor...re-the-deadline

Forgive me on the source, but can anyone else confirm that Gammons actually said this? Obviously, trading Youk+ for Teixeira is ridiculous, but if this report is true, then conversations have been had.

#2 URI


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Posted 13 July 2008 - 11:49 PM

Source: http://bleacherrepor...re-the-deadline

Forgive me on the source, but can anyone else confirm that Gammons actually said this? Obviously, trading Youk+ for Teixeira is ridiculous, but if this report is true, then conversations have been had.


Is it really a conversation if the Braves say "We'll give you Teixeira for Youkilis and Masterson," and the Red Sox turn them down?

It sounds more like Wren is using Gammons to announce that Teixeira can be had this season.

#3 Guest_Corsi Combover_*

Posted 13 July 2008 - 11:52 PM

FWIW, this is from lurker bosockboy:

Gammons said Theo turned down Youk and Hansen for Teixeira.



#4 URI


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Posted 14 July 2008 - 12:10 AM

If the Red Sox really "turned down" Youks and Hansen, then I really am convinced that Gammons is back in pre-stroke form.

#5 SoxFanPJ


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Posted 14 July 2008 - 12:55 AM

Saw the report by Gammons while I was at the gym, so I had to read the closed captioning. But Gammons said the Braves approached the Sox to see if they where interested in Teixeira for Youkilis and Hansen and that the Sox weren't interested in that deal.

I am a big fan of Teixeira, but if you trade for him, I think you are looking at 8/$160M to re-sign him and there is no guarantee some team like the Yankees or Orioles won't out bid you leaving you looking at Casey, Moss, etc starting at 1B in 2009......

#6 Harry Hooper


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Posted 14 July 2008 - 01:57 AM

There's some logic to getting Teixeira if you're worried about Ortiz being a factor this year and you're worried about Youks having a 2nd-half slide again. If Teixeira were a catcher, then you really might have something attractive.

#7 E5 Yaz


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Posted 14 July 2008 - 02:12 AM

There's some logic to getting Teixeira if you're worried about Ortiz being a factor this year and you're worried about Youks having a 2nd-half slide again. If Teixeira were a catcher, then you really might have something attractive.


Variteixeira?

I can't believe Youk/Hansen for Teixeira is the actual "proposal," although I could see those players being the cornerstones to a 5 or 6-player deal, Gammons saying the Red Sox turned down that deal could reference that he has heard there's more components that would have to be included on each side. As much a fan favorite and productive player as he is, I get the sense Youk would be moved in the right trade.

But is that Teixeira? It's not my moneyh, but do you want a megadeal tied up in a first baseman, even one as good as Teixeira? because I can't see the Red Sox being desperate enough to bring him aboard as a rental

#8 Clears Cleaver


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Posted 14 July 2008 - 06:06 AM

Gammons said they turned it down because they have youks under control until 2010 and he had a higher OPS than Tex, not to meniton his fielding.

#9 maufman


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Posted 14 July 2008 - 06:42 AM

Gammons said they turned it down because they have youks under control until 2010 and he had a higher OPS than Tex, not to meniton his fielding.


Even if Gammons is wrong on some details, it seems the Sox won't be bidding for Teixeira's services this winter. And I think that means Manny will be back in a Sox uniform next year. (For reasons I've explained ad nauseam elsewhere, the Rockies won't deal Holliday before the Sox have to decide on Manny's 2009 option, and it doesn't make sense for the Sox to sign Dunn or Burrell to a multi-year deal when they have a one-year option on Manny.)

#10 TomRicardo


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Posted 14 July 2008 - 07:32 AM

Even if Gammons is wrong on some details, it seems the Sox won't be bidding for Teixeira's services this winter. And I think that means Manny will be back in a Sox uniform next year. (For reasons I've explained ad nauseam elsewhere, the Rockies won't deal Holliday before the Sox have to decide on Manny's 2009 option, and it doesn't make sense for the Sox to sign Dunn or Burrell to a multi-year deal when they have a one-year option on Manny.)


Why wouldn't giving a younger Dunn or Burrell a multiyear deal of 12 - 14 million a year for three years not make more sense than taking Manny's option. If you are sure either one will outperform Manny you do it. Both of them now have better bats than Teixeira. Youkilis is swinging the bat better than Teixeira too.

#11 SoxFanSince57


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Posted 14 July 2008 - 07:51 AM

It sounds more like Wren is using Gammons to announce that Teixeira can be had this season.


This rings true to me too.

I like the current situation better in part because I value Youks' ability to play GG caliber defense at 1B and 3B. The flexibility and back-up this give the team is significant IMO.

#12 Spacemans Bong


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Posted 14 July 2008 - 07:51 AM

Other than one half season Teixeira isn't really that good, but he has the reputation of being that good, which means some dumb team will give him huge bucks and huge years for a 125 OPS+. That won't be the Red Sox.

#13 mt8thsw9th


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Posted 14 July 2008 - 09:41 AM

Other than one half season Teixeira isn't really that good, but he has the reputation of being that good, which means some dumb team will give him huge bucks and huge years for a 125 OPS+. That won't be the Red Sox.


Yeah, I really don't see the Red Sox giving big dollars to a player of Mark Teixeira's caliber...

http://www.baseball-...us_active.shtml

22. J.D. Drew* (32) 130 L
Mark Teixeira# (28) 130 B



#14 Bowlerman9


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Posted 14 July 2008 - 09:46 AM

Yeah, I really don't see the Red Sox giving big dollars to a player of Mark Teixeira's caliber...

http://www.baseball-...us_active.shtml


14M for 5 years and 20+M for 7+ years are two totally different categories of "big dollars".

#15 ctsoxfan5

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Posted 14 July 2008 - 09:55 AM

Other than one half season Teixeira isn't really that good, but he has the reputation of being that good, which means some dumb team will give him huge bucks and huge years for a 125 OPS+. That won't be the Red Sox.


He may not be worth the huge contract he likely will get, but it's not really acurate that to say that "other than one half season" he "isn't really that good." Nor is saying he'll put up a 125 OPS+.

He's had an OPS+ of better than 125 for 5 years in a row. His OPS+ for the past few years: 131, 144, 126, 150, 129 (so far in '08). That's more than a great half-season. As someone earlier pointed out, his career OPS+ is 130 (22nd best among active players, and tied with Drew). There are obviously stats other than OPS+ to look at, but my only point is that he is "good" and it wasn't just a fluke half season (I'm not sure which "half season" you're referring to).

#16 yep

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Posted 14 July 2008 - 10:00 AM

Yeah, I really don't see the Red Sox giving big dollars to a player of Mark Teixeira's caliber...

http://www.baseball-...us_active.shtml

If anything, the fact that the Red Sox got a player of Teixeira caliber for JD Dew money, so to speak, illustrates their approach to signing the production ahead of the name. Which kind of reinforces Spacemans Bong's point. If Teixeira will get megastar money to deliver Drew-like performance, then one could read that as making the Drew signing a smart one for value, even if it is on the high end of the pay scale.

#17 maufman


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Posted 14 July 2008 - 10:04 AM

Why wouldn't giving a younger Dunn or Burrell a multiyear deal of 12 - 14 million a year for three years not make more sense than taking Manny's option. If you are sure either one will outperform Manny you do it. Both of them now have better bats than Teixeira. Youkilis is swinging the bat better than Teixeira too.


I wrote a lengthy analysis of this on another thread, so I'll be brief here.

If Dunn could be had for 3/36, that would be great, but I think he'll get at least 4/64. That's a lot for a guy who will only be modestly better than Manny in 2009. BP says there's a 40% chance Dunn will be no more than a marginal major-leaguer by 2011; given his "old-player" skills, that estimate intuitively seems correct. In sum, I think the short-term benefit doesn't justify the long-term risk and loss of flexibility.

Whoever signs Burrell this winter will regret it. His career OPS+ (120) is lower than Manny's 2007 and 2008 numbers. Burrell will be 32 next year; given his age and skill set, I doubt Burrell will be even an average corner outfielder over the next three seasons.

#18 Bosoxen


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Posted 14 July 2008 - 10:12 AM

It's important to keep in mind that Teixeira is a notoriously slow starter - sort of the anti-Youkilis, if you will. For his career, his stats have tended to trend upward as the season progresses (1st half OPS - .877; 2nd half OPS - .938). You will also notice that his stats tend to climb steadily from month to month. His career OPS in Mar/Apr is .787, but it climbs to .989 for Sept/Oct.

This all goes with the disclaimer that his home/road splits are pretty high (.948/.859). So the Launchpad in Arlington may have something to do with that.

He also comes with Gold Glove-caliber defense at 1B. For what ever little that's worth.

Note that I'm not advocating the trade. Just thought I'd throw that out there again, like last year.

#19 The_Powa_of_Seiji_Ozawa

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Posted 14 July 2008 - 10:22 AM

This rings true to me too.

I like the current situation better in part because I value Youks' ability to play GG caliber defense at 1B and 3B. The flexibility and back-up this give the team is significant IMO.

Youkilis does not play GG caliber defense at 3B. He can play an adequate 3B when necessary, but who knows for how much longer. Remember, Teix came up as a 3B too and out of necessity made the switch and turned into a GG 1B.

Anyone who says Teix is "not that good" is delusional. Others have cited the numbers. Teix is superior to Youkilis and is actually younger than Youkilis. Youkilis' career season may resemble one of Teixeira's average seasons.

#20 Pumpsie


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Posted 14 July 2008 - 10:27 AM

Other than one half season Teixeira isn't really that good, but he has the reputation of being that good, which means some dumb team will give him huge bucks and huge years for a 125 OPS+. That won't be the Red Sox.


Very well put, bonger. Even some on this board have him overrated. The Sox were right to turn down the Youks/Hansen deal. Right now, Youks is the better player and he's cheaper. Why would we give them Hansen as well? Should be the other way around.

#21 TomRicardo


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Posted 14 July 2008 - 10:33 AM

I wrote a lengthy analysis of this on another thread, so I'll be brief here.

If Dunn could be had for 3/36, that would be great, but I think he'll get at least 4/64. That's a lot for a guy who will only be modestly better than Manny in 2009. BP says there's a 40% chance Dunn will be no more than a marginal major-leaguer by 2011; given his "old-player" skills, that estimate intuitively seems correct. In sum, I think the short-term benefit doesn't justify the long-term risk and loss of flexibility.

Whoever signs Burrell this winter will regret it. His career OPS+ (120) is lower than Manny's 2007 and 2008 numbers. Burrell will be 32 next year; given his age and skill set, I doubt Burrell will be even an average corner outfielder over the next three seasons.


So basically your wrote a lengthy analysis "somewhere" where you predicted Adam Dunn to completely fall off the table and Burrell to collapse worse than Nixon. Both Dunn and Burrell will cost about 60 to 70% of Teixeira who will get four or five more years than them. Both Dunn and Burrell will provide more than 60% - 70% of Teixeira's production over the next three years despite your incredible missing work saying players with "old player" skills collapse at the age of 30 (yet Teixeira will be awesome past 33).

I can see debating the merits of taking the option one more year however the market this season will be a good time to get a replacement. Next year the market will be Holliday and Bay both of which will probably command a lot more than Burrell and Dunn.

#22 smastroyin


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Posted 14 July 2008 - 10:46 AM

I think "never been that good" is kind of a stretch. The guy is basically a switch hitting Mo Vaughn with GG defense and less chance of his body falling apart. I know we have been somewhat spoiled by Manny and Ortiz over the years but he is a very good hitter.

What would be ideal is to find a way to have Youks every April-June and Tex every July-September.

I have very little doubt that the Red Sox would not be a better team in the second half of 2008 with Tex compared to Youks. Maybe this is the year Youks hits for all six months, but history says no. But, I wouldn't sign Tex to a mega-extension either. So it would purely be a Youks+whoever for 3 months of Tex and draft picks.

I also doubt the price was that low.

#23 ngruz25


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Posted 14 July 2008 - 10:48 AM

So basically your wrote a lengthy analysis "somewhere" where you predicted Adam Dunn to completely fall off the table and Burrell to collapse worse than Nixon.

Trot or Richard?

#24 Bosoxen


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Posted 14 July 2008 - 10:48 AM

Very well put, bonger. Even some on this board have him overrated. The Sox were right to turn down the Youks/Hansen deal. Right now, Youks is the better player and he's cheaper. Why would we give them Hansen as well? Should be the other way around.

Youkilis is in the midst of a career year, and you're calling people out for overrating Teixeira? Are you trying to be contrarian, or does it just appear that way?

He's younger, more experienced, has better career stats, and is more versatile. As was mentioned before, Tex came up as a 3B. He was also projected as a corner outfielder when he was in the Rangers' farm system.

What does that versatility mean? Probably nothing. But let's not get carried away here.

Edited by Bosoxen, 14 July 2008 - 10:50 AM.


#25 GreyisGone

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Posted 14 July 2008 - 10:59 AM

The real debate here shouldn't be who is better, it should be is the difference between Youks and I know nothing about baseball > than the value (and risk) of the money they'd be given up (I say great because if it is simply a wash there would be no reason at all to make the move). Personally, I'm not sure that it would be worth it, unless I know nothing about baseball wants a hell of a lot less than rumored.

#26 Paul M


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Posted 14 July 2008 - 11:17 AM

For next year, there's a decision to make on who is the 2nd big bat behind Ortiz (who carries increasing downside risk each year). It's not hard to see a scenario where it makes sense to get Teixeira. While that time might not be right now since you won't get a break financially by getting him now since he will be testing the market regardless, he could probably be a decent LF with the glove and his offense has been underrated in this thread, imo. A .280/.370/.530 line over the next 3-4 years seems reasonable. So, do you take a chance on just going with Manny or do you sign Tex (and forfeit a high pick)?

#27 TomRicardo


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Posted 14 July 2008 - 11:28 AM

For next year, there's a decision to make on who is the 2nd big bat behind Ortiz (who carries increasing downside risk each year). It's not hard to see a scenario where it makes sense to get Teixeira. While that time might not be right now since you won't get a break financially by getting him now since he will be testing the market regardless, he could probably be a decent LF with the glove and his offense has been underrated in this thread, imo. A .280/.370/.530 line over the next 3-4 years seems reasonable. So, do you take a chance on just going with Manny or do you sign Tex (and forfeit a high pick)?


The problem ios there is no chance in hell Teixeira signs a 4 year contract. I doubt he goes for less than 7. We are talking a Mannyesque contract for Teixeira. You have Boras as his agent and the Mets, Yankees, Angels, Orioles, Giants, and possibly even the Phillies (if there is any indication he will play LF) involved in the bidding. Numbers are going to get extremely large extremely quickly. If the Yankees miss the playoffs there is about zero chance they won't blow everyone out of the water with an offer.

Teixeira is a great player but he is going to get extremely overpaid.

Edited by TomRicardo, 14 July 2008 - 11:29 AM.


#28 rembrat


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Posted 14 July 2008 - 11:43 AM

The problem ios there is no chance in hell Teixeira signs a 4 year contract. I doubt he goes for less than 7. We are talking a Mannyesque contract for Teixeira. You have Boras as his agent and the Mets, Yankees, Angels, Orioles, Giants, and possibly even the Phillies (if there is any indication he will play LF) involved in the bidding. Numbers are going to get extremely large extremely quickly. If the Yankees miss the playoffs there is about zero chance they won't blow everyone out of the water with an offer.

Teixeira is a great player but he is going to get extremely overpaid.

Bingo. Hell, even if the Yankees make the playoffs I would consider them the favorites to go all out for the switch hitting gold glove 1B. Their offense has been a huge problem this year and it doesn't look like it's going to improve with aging players like Jeter, Abreu (who they probably won't retain), Posada, Matsui and Damon. They need something to offset this and Teixeira is the answer. He'll improve their D and the offense. Teixeira and Rodriguez 3 and 4 would be a force. I can't see him in anything other than pinstripes next year.

#29 Paul M


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Posted 14 July 2008 - 11:47 AM

I'd go 6 years and $95 million, and if it is more than that, I say c-ya. He's not overpaid, though, if that is what the market is for a middle of the order player in their prime. Manny was overpaid for most of his contract and we did win two World Series and should have appeared in 3. I'm ok with overpaying for great players--it is paying $36 million for a $15-20 million player that is maybe worse (hello, Julio Lugo). All this young pitching we have should allow us to sign in their prime hitters, right? If we were willing to sign a 34-year old 3B for 3 years, I'd expect we could go to 6 years for a 28-year old 1B/LF. I'm making some assumptions here and I know the bidding will be fierce, but at to the question, the Sox BETTER be interested.

#30 yep

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Posted 14 July 2008 - 12:16 PM

For next year, there's a decision to make on who is the 2nd big bat behind Ortiz (who carries increasing downside risk each year)...


I think this line of thinking is misguided.

To state the problem of a need to replace Manny's/Ortiz's/whomever's production is to imply that the Red Sox need only and exactly so many power bats (or whatever). Should the Red Sox not sign top offensive players if they already have one (or two)? Should they start to focus on acquiring poor players if they have several very good ones?

Let's say player T, who is a GG-caliber 1st baseman, is offered in a trade for player Y, who is also a GG-caliber 1B (both are competent at 3B). Player T has a VORP* of say, 23. Player Y has a VORP of say 13.** So there is a difference of 10 (we could use any metric and any scale). Assuming cost is otherwise equal, why would you ever *not* make this trade? If the cost is not equal, or if there are other players involved, or money is a factor, then the values on each side of the scale become slightly more complex to tally, but the comparison is still the same. The player is ultimately either more or less valuable than what you are giving up to acquire him, factoring in risk, etc.

We can argue about the best way to measure likely output, or the best way to evaluate talent, but why would a smart team ever not acquire a player whom they can afford and who improves their team more than the other available options at similar cost? And if a player does not improve the team more than the other available options at similar cost, why would a smart team not pursue those options instead? IOW, the only question that really matters is, after all the money and players and risk and opportunity costs and so on have been tallied, is this scenario the best available use of the team's resources? If the answer is no, then use the resources in whichever scenario was better. If the answer is yes, pull the trigger.

If Teixeira is good, and Manny is good, then both are better. If one is not good, then how does the absence of the other make him better? If they both played the same position, then I could see an either/or "fill the hole" mentality being relevant. But "power hitter" is not a position, and you can stock the lineup with them if you want to and are able to do so. Why stop after Ortiz?

My point is not to sign Teixeira or not to, just that I don't think that the quality of your left fielder should have much bearing on your options at 1B. If you have a hole at LF or a surplus at 1B or something like that, then sure, move to address it. But much like pitching, sluggers are something you can never have too many of.

Personally, while I think Teixeira might be an improvement, I don't think he is *enough* of an improvement to justify the cost. IOW, I think over the next few years, The Red Sox will be able to field a better team with with Youkilis and an extra ~$20m than with Teixeira. But Manny's presence or absence has nothing to do with that assessment. I just happen to think that Youkilis and Teixeira are more similar in terms of production than their reputations are, and that the money spent could buy more improvement at a position that is not already occupied by an All-Star-caliber player.

*I am using VORP because it is a handy bottom-line measure of offensive production, but we could use whatever value scale you want. My point is not limited to Tex/Youks, but rather about the big picture of how to evaluate signings and "plugging holes"

**In actuality, Youkilis currently has the higher VORP, 32.9. But for purposes of this illustration I'm assuming that Teixeira is better, to demonstrate a point.

#31 TomRicardo


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Posted 14 July 2008 - 12:18 PM

I'd go 6 years and $95 million, and if it is more than that, I say c-ya. He's not overpaid, though, if that is what the market is for a middle of the order player in their prime. Manny was overpaid for most of his contract and we did win two World Series and should have appeared in 3. I'm ok with overpaying for great players--it is paying $36 million for a $15-20 million player that is maybe worse (hello, Julio Lugo). All this young pitching we have should allow us to sign in their prime hitters, right? If we were willing to sign a 34-year old 3B for 3 years, I'd expect we could go to 6 years for a 28-year old 1B/LF. I'm making some assumptions here and I know the bidding will be fierce, but at to the question, the Sox BETTER be interested.


I think 95/6 isn't even close to what you need to bid for Teixeira. Also Teixeira is not like Ramirez was. Ramirez was all time great hitter when he got this contract. Teixeira is not. Teixeira is not going to give 1.000 OPS season constantly and probably doesn't even have more than one if that in him. Teixeira at best is mid .900 OPS player but probably more of a low .900 OPS guy.

I think the Red Sox may be better doing one more year of Manny then waiting to see if the market cools for Bay and Holliday. I think this offseason is going to be a feed frenzy.

#32 Paul M


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Posted 14 July 2008 - 01:31 PM

Two things

1. There is a finite number of 1B/DH/LF and we have 3 right now, so yeah, it's not as simple as adding power = more runs. Given there's less marginal benefit and you still have to give up talent to get him, I don't see this happening now UNLESS one of the 1B/LF/DH are no longer an option.

2. Tom, you can't really compare 2008 offense with 2001-2004 offense. A 950 OPS today is the same as a 975 OPS back then. But, I am not saying the Sox should give him a Manny contract either. I am doubtful this regime would have given Manny a Manny contract. But, I am not sure I follow how Tex is not worth it but Holliday might be? Won't Holliday get paid just as much and probably provide pretty close to the same production? My guess is they re-up Manny in the end, and see what happens.

#33 TomRicardo


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Posted 14 July 2008 - 01:41 PM

Two things

1. There is a finite number of 1B/DH/LF and we have 3 right now, so yeah, it's not as simple as adding power = more runs. Given there's less marginal benefit and you still have to give up talent to get him, I don't see this happening now UNLESS one of the 1B/LF/DH are no longer an option.

2. Tom, you can't really compare 2008 offense with 2001-2004 offense. A 950 OPS today is the same as a 975 OPS back then. But, I am not saying the Sox should give him a Manny contract either. I am doubtful this regime would have given Manny a Manny contract. But, I am not sure I follow how Tex is not worth it but Holliday might be? Won't Holliday get paid just as much and probably provide pretty close to the same production? My guess is they re-up Manny in the end, and see what happens.


You are absolutely right. Still Ramirez was HoF talent in the steroid era. Teixeira is not HoF material now. Ramirez was one of those generational players (look at he still thrived after steroid testing, something that only him, Bonds, and ARod did as the rest of steroid babies wilted away). I would not say Teixeira is a top ten player in baseball. He might be a top 25 player. Ramirez was a serious MVP contender three years before he came to the Sox and was one throughout most of his contract. Manny when he got his contract with the Sox and Teixeira are just not comparable. Manny was much much better a player.

That said Teixeira is about to get a Ramirez like deal. There is just no way with the Mets and the Yankees looking for 1B that Boras won't be able to get the money up there. Teixeira will be getting 20+ for over seven years. Hell Angelos might be getting Tejada stupid again and will bid on the hometown boy. I highly doubt Cashman will be able to keep the Steinbrenners steady if they miss the playoffs.

#34 PedroKsBambino


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Posted 14 July 2008 - 01:49 PM

Saying players are 'HoF caliber' is of no real meaning, and definitely of no importance to understanding how the Red Sox assess these decisions.

The questions to ask are about about dollars of cost and units of expected production for the player in question relative to the replacement cost and related assumptions. IMO, if we focus the analysis that way we'll have some reason to believe we're viewing the problem in the same basic way the Red Sox are likely approaching it. If we plunge in without projected numbers, reasonable baselines, or replacements costs we'll have a garbage-in, garbage-out situation that is really no more than 'I want xxx' or 'I don't want xxx'

#35 deanx0

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Posted 14 July 2008 - 01:50 PM

You are absolutely right. Still Ramirez was HoF talent in the steroid era. Teixeira is not HoF material now. Ramirez was one of those generational players (look at he still thrived after steroid testing, something that only him, Bonds, and ARod did as the rest of steroid babies wilted away). I would not say Teixeira is a top ten player in baseball. He might be a top 25 player. Ramirez was a serious MVP contender three years before he came to the Sox and was one throughout most of his contract. Manny when he got his contract with the Sox and Teixeira are just not comparable. Manny was much much better a player.

That said Teixeira is about to get a Ramirez like deal. There is just no way with the Mets and the Yankees looking for 1B that Boras won't be able to get the money up there. Teixeira will be getting 20+ for over seven years. Hell Angelos might be getting Tejada stupid again and will bid on the hometown boy. I highly doubt Cashman will be able to keep the Steinbrenners steady if they miss the playoffs.


I think this is the real problem. Both the Mets and Yankees will be looking for offense this offseason, and both have perfect spots for Tex as the Yankees can jettison or DH Giambi, and the Mets will see Tex as a HUGE upgrade over the bloated corpse that is Delgado these days. I know everyone sees Tex in new Yankee stadium next year, but the Mets are opening their ballpark as well, and if they miss the playoffs, I think they'll be heavy into Tex, particularly if Maine and Pelfry continue to perform well as starters, meaning the cash can be used to improve the offense.

#36 TomRicardo


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Posted 14 July 2008 - 02:06 PM

Saying players are 'HoF caliber' is of no real meaning, and definitely of no importance to understanding how the Red Sox assess these decisions.

The questions to ask are about about dollars of cost and units of expected production for the player in question relative to the replacement cost and related assumptions. IMO, if we focus the analysis that way we'll have some reason to believe we're viewing the problem in the same basic way the Red Sox are likely approaching it. If we plunge in without projected numbers, reasonable baselines, or replacements costs we'll have a garbage-in, garbage-out situation that is really no more than 'I want xxx' or 'I don't want xxx'


Yes, and he projects to be a low to mid 900 OPS player. The disagreement is about how valuable a player like that is. Some people think he is elite player while I believe those sort of numbers aren't an elite player. One thing we can reasonable assume is that Teixeira is going to get elite player money.

The problem is for a discount you can a player close to Teixeira in offesne capability (Manny, Dunn, Burrell, Giambi). The real question is if the discount is worth the slightly lower offensive performance. The fact that Teixeira is not an elite player, leads to the assumption that he is somewhat replacable and if he is going to get crazy money for namesake (which he is) you might want to look elsewhere and invest in someone that is underrated as opposed to some that is overrated like Teixeira.

No one is saying Teixeira is a bad player. He is in fact a good player. However he has been a bit Zito'd. Basically Teixeira is a name that has been bantered around and people are starting to think he is the offense answer. Teams are covetting the name. Boras is going to use the frenzy as well as the free money available to drive the price up to the point where Teixeira will be overpaid. Zito is not a great analogy because people will assume I am tryign to say he will tank. But the next best example is Mussina, who was overpaid in 2001 but Mussina was a much better player than Teixeira at the time. Teixeira is about to make more money than any other one time All Star.

#37 PedroKsBambino


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Posted 14 July 2008 - 02:32 PM

The problem is that 'elite' is not a useful measure of anything in terms of making a decision, seems to me.

The question is what is Teixeira going to produce relative to the replacement options and whether that increment is worth the cost of signing/acquiring him. Those are questions we can debate the measurement of, but we'll never move forward on that if we spend a lot of time on label, seems to me.

To put it more simply, I think you need to define what these players (Teix and the other options) are worth in terms of runs or marginal wins and compare that to the expected cost of acquisition. Then you have a real basis for deciding if it makes sense.

#38 mjswarner

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Posted 14 July 2008 - 02:46 PM

Teixeira is about to make more money than any other one time All Star.

I hadn't seen this mentioned yet, but it speaks to the 'expected cost of acquisition' bit. Tom Hicks says that Boras and Teixeira turned down an 8 year $140 million extension in 2006. Teixeira's made $9 and 12.5 million since then. Safely assuming that their demands have not come down since the Rangers' offer, Teixeira and Boras will seek (and probably get) a contract of more than 6 years, $120 million.

#39 Guest_Corsi Combover_*

Posted 14 July 2008 - 02:53 PM

Cafardo doesn't add much, but whatever..

Rah-rah: Nick, have you heard anything rumored about Mark Teixeira possibly coming here?

Nick Cafardo: Because the report came from my long-time mentor and former colleage Peter Gammons, I give it great respect. The Sox have always coveted Teixeira, a former draft pick. But it would still surprise me if they gave up Youkilis, who appears to be the ultimate dirt-dog type player and absolutely perfect in the Red Sox lineup.

Source: http://www.boston.co...th_nick_ca.html

#40 TomRicardo


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Posted 14 July 2008 - 03:06 PM

The problem is that 'elite' is not a useful measure of anything in terms of making a decision, seems to me.

The question is what is Teixeira going to produce relative to the replacement options and whether that increment is worth the cost of signing/acquiring him. Those are questions we can debate the measurement of, but we'll never move forward on that if we spend a lot of time on label, seems to me.

To put it more simply, I think you need to define what these players (Teix and the other options) are worth in terms of runs or marginal wins and compare that to the expected cost of acquisition. Then you have a real basis for deciding if it makes sense.


There is no possibly way Teixeira is going to get paid per value of runs or marginal wins. He is going to be paid far more for a RC than the average player. Teixeira is going to give you around 7.0 - 7.5 RC/game (career 7.2). Dunn is a little better (career 7.3) and Burrell if continues the way he has over the last four years is right there with those two. Kevin Youkilis has been in 6.5 - 7.0 RC/game over the last couple years and Manny is probably looking at a season where his RC 7.0 - 7.5 per a game. Basically Dunn/Burrell/Teixeira/Manny are all about the same place offensively and Youkilis is a little worse though is having a career year now.

The fact is Teixeira is gong to get a much better contract than Manny, Burrell, and Dunn despite the fact Teixeira's offensive production is not really different from the rest of these players. It is because Teixeira has star power with his name. The Yankees and Mets will be bidding for the back page of the Post and the News just as much as they will be bidding for Teixeira's production.

Outstanding value would be around $50,000 per Run Created and pretty good value would probably be $100,000 per Run Created. Anything over $150,000 is the line between decent/overpaid and over $200,000 would make you the most overpaid player in baseball just beating Jeter last year. Lets Teixeira plays all 162 games. With his career averages, Teixeira would create about 130 Runs. That means at 6.5 million Teixeira is a great value. At 13 million, Teixeira would be a decent value. At 18.5 million Teixeira would be over paid and at 26 million Teixeira would be the most overpaid player in baseball (though Varitek, Andruw Jones, and Jeter are going to destroy that number this year). Anything over 21 million and Teixeira becomes one of the top ten overpaid hitters.

Really anything over 16 or 17 million a year and you are overpaying Teixeira. Manny would be overpaid at 20 million though it is only for one year. Teixeira might be overpaid the entire length of his contract.

#41 bakahump

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Posted 14 July 2008 - 03:47 PM

I think 95/6 isn't even close to what you need to bid for Teixeira. Also Teixeira is not like Ramirez was. Ramirez was all time great hitter when he got this contract. Teixeira is not. Teixeira is not going to give 1.000 OPS season constantly and probably doesn't even have more than one if that in him. Teixeira at best is mid .900 OPS player but probably more of a low .900 OPS guy.

I think the Red Sox may be better doing one more year of Manny then waiting to see if the market cools for Bay and Holliday. I think this offseason is going to be a feed frenzy.


One quick observation....How many 1000ops players will there be? How many .950 or .925 OPS players will there be?

If a .928 ops is the new 1000.....then he is indeed worth Manny money even if he never matches Manny production.

You cant compare him to Mannys production 2000-2008. You need to compare him to players who will be (or appear to be) the other options 2009 and beyond.
I'll pose this question to someone with more time then me...

What was the league avg OPS of 2005? (or 06 or 04) What was the the avg OPS of 08.

What where the top 25 AVG OPS of the various years?

I suspect that we may see OPS falling from 1.000 being the bench mark to .980 or .950

#42 maufman


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Posted 14 July 2008 - 03:54 PM

So basically your wrote a lengthy analysis "somewhere" where you predicted Adam Dunn to completely fall off the table and Burrell to collapse worse than Nixon. Both Dunn and Burrell will cost about 60 to 70% of Teixeira who will get four or five more years than them.


Dunn is 6'6", 275 pounds and can't play a lick of defense. Teixeira is 6'3, 220 and has won two Gold Gloves. Both have stayed remarkably healthy through their careers, but intuitively, I think Teixeira is likely to have a longer career. BP's analysis matches this intuition-- 35% chance Dunn is marginal (sub-.250 EQA) by 2010, rising to 40% in 2011 and 55% by 2012. Teixeira, meanwhile, is only 20% likely to be marginal by 2011, rising to 30% by 2012 and not reaching 40% until 2014. I agree with you that Teixeira will be overpaid; I disagree that Dunn is an attractive alternative, though that's partly because I think Dunn will get more money than you think. (I think you're on the mark for Burrell, but I think someone will give Dunn at least 4/60.)

I said "I doubt Burrell will be even an average corner outfielder over the next three seasons." This year, the median OPS for a regular corner outfielder in the AL is .783, compared to an overall league average of .746, for an OPS+ of roughly 108. Given that Burrell's defense is atrocious (comparable to Manny, according to BP), he needs an OPS+ of at least 111 or 112 to be an average corner outfielder. If that's the over/under for his OPS+ during his age 32-34 seasons, I'll take the under. That leaves a lot of room for Burrell to be better than Trot Nixon, who had his last productive season at age 31 (2005).

Here's what I posted before (except with updated stats):

Leaving aside the in-house options (who don't excite me), the main candidates to replace Manny are Teixeira, Dunn and Burrell. (I'm leaving out Holliday, because I don't believe the Rockies will trade him before the start of next season.) All of those guys would demand multi-year commitments: at least 3 years for Burrell, 4 or 5 for Dunn, and probably 6 or 7 for Teixeira.

Here's a snapshot of their 2007 and 2008 stats, with career numbers for the would-be replacements. (Manny's career numbers are irrelevant, because he's past his prime.)

Manny
2007—126 OPS+
2008—137 OPS+

Teixeira (career OPS+ = 130)
2007—150 OPS+
2008—129 OPS+

Dunn (career OPS+ = 131)
2007—136 OPS+
2008—137 OPS+

Burrell (career OPS+ = 120)
2007—127 OPS+
2008—151 OPS+

Yes, Teixeira and Dunn are better than Manny, and Burrell might be too. But is it obvious that any of those guys will be a lot better than Manny in 2009? I don't think so.

I like Teixeira, but with Scott Boras involved and both NY teams likely to bid, he'll be overpaid. I'll be shocked if he doesn't get at least $120mm over 6 years. That's way too much for a guy who's essentially the Fred McGriff of his generation.

I also like Dunn, but he has "old-player" skills and isn't likely to age well; BP says there's a 40% chance he'll be no more than a fringe big-leaguer by 2011. Signing Dunn through 2012 or 2013 is a risky move that would only modestly improve the team in 2009.

I think signing Pat Burrell to a long-term deal would be a disaster. He'll be 32 next season, and that's when a lot of sluggers see their production fall off a cliff. Also, someone will overpay based on his gaudy walk-year numbers.

In sum, I think the most prudent course is to exercise Manny's $20mm option for 2009, address the team's more pressing needs (catcher and shortstop), and see how things play out.

#43 Guest_Corsi Combover_*

Posted 14 July 2008 - 04:13 PM

The Red Sox have talked to the Braves about free-agent-to-be first baseman Mark Teixeira, and more conversations are likely to take place before the July 31 trading deadline, according to well-placed major league sources.

ESPN's Peter Gammons was the first to report that the talks had taken place, and it is true that the Braves asked for first baseman Kevin Youkilis and Craig Hansen in return. Would the Sox make that deal? Not at the moment, but the message they left with the Braves was keep us in mind. The Braves, according to those sources, have their doubts that the Sox would move Youkilis, because of his ability to play both first and third and his defensive skills at both positions.

And if David Ortiz proves he's healthy on his rehab assignment, the Sox may hold off on any pursuit of Teixeira until after the season, when he's a free agent. The other key factor: The Braves have yet to decide if they're going to trade Teixeira; if they're still within striking distance of first place in the NL East as the deadline nears, they may back off. Currently, Atlanta is currently 45-50 and in fourth place in the NL East, 6 1/2 games back of first-place Philly.

Source: http://www.boston.co...ira_in_pla.html

#44 TomRicardo


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Posted 14 July 2008 - 04:14 PM

One quick observation....How many 1000ops players will there be? How many .950 or .925 OPS players will there be?

If a .928 ops is the new 1000.....then he is indeed worth Manny money even if he never matches Manny production.


Over the last several years the numbers in the AL have held pretty steady

Year - Over 1.000 OPS/Over .900 OPS (includes over 1.000 OPS)
2001 - 4/14
2002 - 4/10
2003 - 2/15
2004 - 1/12
2005 - 3/10
2006 - 5/15
2007 - 4/9
2008 - 1/12

Average - 3/12

So the truly elite hitters get over 1.000 ops, and the very good hitters are over .900 ops. .928 ops would but Teixeira at around a 10th in the AL year to year.

Comparing leagues is hard because as we see each year in interleague the NL is inferior to the AL. NL pitching is inferior to AL pitching in general so it is easier for a good player to ut up great numbers in the NL. Especially offensively as the NL is leading the AL in runs.

#45 Paul M


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Posted 14 July 2008 - 04:18 PM

In terms of even cheaper alternatives, what about Brian Giles? His away OPS from 2005-2007 was 885 (this year it is 878)--I use this because Petco is just a horrible hitting environment. You'd want to get another RH hitter but Giles would seem to be a good back-up plan if they have to make other moves that bring higher cost players into the mix. Giles probably makes the line-up too OBP-based but I've not seen the name listed in ages and he's very good at not making outs and walks more than he Ks. Again, not a huge endorsement.

I'd also wager that Teixeira does not get $20 million per year, either. I still think $15-17 per year like Hunter, Aramis Ramirez, Carlos Lee, Soriano. But, I guess it's possible.

#46 The_Powa_of_Seiji_Ozawa

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Posted 14 July 2008 - 04:20 PM

In sum, I think the most prudent course is to exercise Manny's $20mm option for 2009, address the team's more pressing needs (catcher and shortstop), and see how things play out.

I agree with this 100%

Taking Manny year-by-year for the next 2 seasons should be a no-brainer, a luxury that few (if any) teams have with their current sluggers, who are either going to be free-agents or are locked up in long-term contracts. The 2 option years mitigate the financial risks incredibly. By then this team's long-term situations at various positions will be clearer (will Ortiz hold up? is Ellsbury more than just speed? can Youkilis be consistent for a whole season?) Personally I don't think the upgrade from Youk to Teix is worth the price, but make no mistake, without taking into consideration others costs in talent, as a pure comparison of the two players alone, it WOULD be an upgrade.

#47 TomRicardo


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Posted 14 July 2008 - 04:39 PM

I'd also wager that Teixeira does not get $20 million per year, either. I still think $15-17 per year like Hunter, Aramis Ramirez, Carlos Lee, Soriano. But, I guess it's possible.


Thats a fool's bet. Teixeira will have the full force of the Beltran effect. Both New York teams have a hole and covet a player. Sprinkling in a dash of Boras and both teams missing the playoffs, and you will a full on Post/News bidding war. Between Hankasaurus' first real year and Minaya desperately clutching to his job, can you think of a better story? It is a perfect storm even worse than Santana and Beltran. I bet Minaya closes his eyes and pretends Teixeira is latino instead of Portuguese.

Outside Boras and Theo's obvious love affair (It is clear that Boras' favorite GM is Theo) I doubt the Red Sox actually even get involved in the discussion. Just a chat here and there to help drive up the price for the Yankees.

#48 Paul M


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Posted 14 July 2008 - 04:58 PM

What did the Beltran effect mean? Beltran coming off of a huge post-season and playing GG defense at a premium position got about $15 per year on a net present value basis and $17 per year on an average annual nominal basis. Texeira would need to get $22 million to match that in today's dollars. Manny Ramirez contract back in 2001 is closer to $30 million per year now, so things are not really close to the 2001 days.

#49 koufax32


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Posted 14 July 2008 - 05:37 PM

What did the Beltran effect mean? Beltran coming off of a huge post-season and playing GG defense at a premium position got about $15 per year on a net present value basis and $17 per year on an average annual nominal basis. I know nothing about baseball would need to get $22 million to match that in today's dollars. Manny Ramirez contract back in 2001 is closer to $30 million per year now, so things are not really close to the 2001 days.


I'm not sure Beltran's FA is the best comp. here The Perfect Free Agent Storm consists of a) multiple big market teams b) a glaring need at the position c) Scott Boras d) the need for said teams to "do something" e) money coming off the books of said teams so they can talk themselves into any price f) rivals going after the same player g) somewhat insane/desparate decision makers.

I would love to take that bet. It would be a sure thing even if it was just the Yankees who were interested. The only way Tex gets less than $20m per is if he gets traded and makes a deal before free agency which we all know is not going to happen. I must say I'm stunned the Sox would have interest here. Maybe that is explained by the apparent storyline of the Braves contacting Boston and not vice versa. If TomRic doesn't take your bet please let me know!

#50 TomRicardo


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Posted 14 July 2008 - 05:43 PM

What did the Beltran effect mean? Beltran coming off of a huge post-season and playing GG defense at a premium position got about $15 per year on a net present value basis and $17 per year on an average annual nominal basis. I know nothing about baseball would need to get $22 million to match that in today's dollars. Manny Ramirez contract back in 2001 is closer to $30 million per year now, so things are not really close to the 2001 days.


Beltran was in the back pages of the Post and News pretty much every day of 2004 - 2005 off season. The off season bidding of Beltran was followed every day. This coverage of him was just as important making him a superstar in New York as his play. I would venture to guess Boras fed new to the papers. Fact was though there was a feeding frenzy off Beltran. He was the beginning of the New Mets (with Pedro). The whole deal was part of the reason the Yankees went out and got Johnson. There is definitely a need for attention for both of these teams. Cashman has tried to stay clear but since the dawn of SNY both of these teams have really battled for the attention of New York.

Minaya vs. Steinbrenner's has been a big money spending story line since 2005. It is a part of the reason Isiah lasted so long. People were distracted by the Yankee/Mets odffseason wars. How are the Mets going to top the Yankees? How are the Yankees going to respond? It pretty much dominates the sporting news of New York from November to January.

Edited by TomRicardo, 14 July 2008 - 05:43 PM.





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