131 replies to this topic

[NomarRS05]

I think the best moves for the pen when looking at all the options are in-house. When Colon and/or Buchholz are ready to return, I think they should slot Masterson into the bullpen to replace Hansen. It would keep his innings down and could be death on righties. They should also try Aardsma in a couple of higher leverage situations to see how he handles it since he is pitching well.

Looks like Masterson may be out of the picture. He was just sent down for Jeff Bailey, per Bradford on WEEI.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Looks like Masterson may be out of the picture. He was just sent down for Jeff Bailey, per Bradford on WEEI.

Bradford says he's going to the bullpen.

Someone in the Sox' FO has been listening to DH3. I'm officially terrified.

[86spike]

Excellent news.

Now do they bring up Colon to showcase him for a trade or bring back Buchholz?

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Excellent news.

Now do they bring up Colon to showcase him for a trade or bring back Buchholz?

I don't think Colon is ready to pitch yet and Buchholz definitely is, so I'd assume they're bring back Buchholz.

[NomarRS05]

This is welcome news to say the least. Now if we could just find a LOOGY to compliment him in the late innings things may be looking up.

[Joshv02]

I don't think Colon is ready to pitch yet and Buchholz definitely is, so I'd assume they're bring back Buchholz.

After the AS break maybe, and use the day off this week to juggle the rotation this week?

[cwright]

This is welcome news to say the least. Now if we could just find a LOOGY to compliment him in the late innings things may be looking up.

(I'm sorry; I can't resist.)
Why....is his confidence so fragile that he needs a constant stream of accolades from the guys around him? Would the guy be in the bullpen before Masterson pitches, or in the dugout to praise his performances after he finishes?

More seriously....this makes a lot of sense...but it concerns me on one level. Masterson has been extremely wild at times, and sometimes seems to have no idea where the ball will end up. That could cost us late in the game.

[TheYellowDart5]

Anyone here have any idea how long a conversion like this could take? Could we see Masterson in the bullpen in two weeks time?

Follow-up question: When Masterson's ready, who goes? The most likely candidate would seem to be Hansen, assuming Timlin doesn't flame out between now and then.

[GreyisGone]

Perfect move. I think this is the best use of their internal resources and should give them enough time to see what they have prior to the deadline.

[TomRicardo]

Excellent news.

Not really. I hate this move. I don't think Masterson is a shut down reliever at this point. He does not have a killer pitch to get lefties out. So we are squandering a starter for next year to get 30 middle relief innings. This also kills our pitching depth unless the Red Sox see Zink as a major league starter.

[Foulkey Reese]

I could see them giving Hansen a few more chances to prove his worth. If he keeps up the suck then he would definitely be a candidate to be sent down. As much as I dislike him, Lopez has been decent and I'm pretty sure that his roster spot is safe.

It really should be Timlin, but I just don't see it happening.

[Myt1]

This is really excellent news. Address a roster issue from within.

Not really. I hate this move. I don't think Masterson is a shut down reliever at this point. He does not have a killer pitch to get lefties out. So we are squandering a starter for next year to get 30 middle relief innings. This also kills our pitching depth unless the Red Sox see Zink as a major league starter.

Who would you consider to be a shutdown reliever, and what do you think the Sox would have to part with to get him?

Edited by Myt1, 07 July 2008 - 03:35 PM.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Not really. I hate this move. I don't think Masterson is a shut down reliever at this point. He does not have a killer pitch to get lefties out. So we are squandering a starter for next year to get 30 middle relief innings. This also kills our pitching depth unless the Red Sox see Zink as a major league starter.

I think they'd use him as a righty specialist. I'm also assuming this is a temporary move for this year only, and that they still see his long-term future as a starter.

[jayhoz]

Masterson's spot wouldn't be needed again until July 20th given the off day on the 10th and ASB. (Stupidity removed)

Edited by jayhoz, 07 July 2008 - 03:41 PM.

[Seabass177]

Not really. I hate this move. I don't think Masterson is a shut down reliever at this point. He does not have a killer pitch to get lefties out. So we are squandering a starter for next year to get 30 middle relief innings. This also kills our pitching depth unless the Red Sox see Zink as a major league starter.

You're assuming this is a permanent move to the pen, and he couldn't possibly revert to being a starter next year. I heartily disagree. This is a smart move to try to fill a glaring hole this season, and then they can reassess Masterson in the offseason. I'm sure the Sox will give him every opportunity to go back to starting once the season is over.

[TomRicardo]

I think they'd use him as a righty specialist. I'm also assuming this is a temporary move for this year only, and that they still see his long-term future as a starter.

But he won't be able to pitch a full season next year. Also why are we getting a ROOGY when the bullpen is having trouble getting lefties out? Basically everyone is clapping because we stunting the development of promising starter into a ROOGY to fix the fact our LHRP have been horrible.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Masterson's spot wouldn't be needed again until July 20th given the off day on the 10th and ASB. We'll see what the long term plan for him is, but I like the addition of an arm in the pen (Bailey) in the short term.

Eh, what? Bailey's a first baseman, no?

[Joshv02]

Not really. I hate this move. I don't think Masterson is a shut down reliever at this point. He does not have a killer pitch to get lefties out. So we are squandering a starter for next year to get 30 middle relief innings. This also kills our pitching depth unless the Red Sox see Zink as a major league starter.

1. Can't the Sox control platoon splits better if Masterson is a reliever?

2. While I realize that moving him back to the rotation would take some stretching out, I assume it would take less this season given that he has already done it, and the Sox still have at least 6 good starting pitchers with Colon, with single start fill-in material in Pauley/Zink/Hansack. In other words, if they need a 7th starter again, then Masterson can get ready while Pauley or whoever goes once.

[TheYellowDart5]

As to Masterson's replacement:

Buchholz's next start is the 10th against Norfolk, if the current schedule holds. His next start after that would be the 15th, but that's the IL All-Star break. So if Buchholz were to step in for Masterson, he'd be making the start on the 20th on 10 days rest.

Zink's last start was the 3rd, so his next start will be tomorrow night. After that, he'd get Norfolk on the 13th, giving him a full week off if the Sox tabbed him to start on the 20th.

[Doc Zero]

I dig this move, if only because our bullpen has been consistently shaking for the better part of the past week and a half. I think the question of who they slot into the rotation will depend on who the scheduled starts come against in the next few weeks. I can see Colon getting a start against Baltimore, but the move is also going to depend heavily on their confidence in Buchholz at this point.

Timlin or Lopez really should be the candidates to go, but I'm sure it'll be Hansen who gets the demote.

[jayhoz]

Eh, what? Bailey's a first baseman, no?

Jesus christ I'm a moron today.....




yeah yeah I know it isn't just today.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

But he won't be able to pitch a full season next year. Also why are we getting a ROOGY when the bullpen is having trouble getting lefties out? Basically everyone is clapping because we stunting the development of promising starter into a ROOGY to fix the fact our LHRP have been horrible.

if he's better than Hansen or Timlin, the bullpen will be much improved. That's probably all they're looking for in this move.

[Bellhorn]

(I'm sorry; I can't resist.)
Why....is his confidence so fragile that he needs a constant stream of accolades from the guys around him? Would the guy be in the bullpen before Masterson pitches, or in the dugout to praise his performances after he finishes?

nicely done

More seriously....this makes a lot of sense...but it concerns me on one level. Masterson has been extremely wild at times, and sometimes seems to have no idea where the ball will end up. That could cost us late in the game.

I'm sure it's awareness of this issue that is causing them to send him down to work on these things, rather than sticking him in the bullpen right away. I'm sure they won't be putting him in any high leverage relief roles until Farrell and co are convinced that whatever mechanical issues are responsible for his command issues have been resolved.

[GreyisGone]

This also kills our pitching depth unless the Red Sox see Zink as a major league starter.

This really isn't true. With the All-Star break thrown in the middle, Colon should be ready in short time which brings them up to 6 starters. Then you have Zink/Pauley/Hansak in AAA, but more importantly, you have Bowden in AA who is almost certainly capable of filling in for a few starts if need be.

[gcapalbo]

I suspected this might happen. You do hate to take a functioning starter (even with a bit of smoke and mirrors and luck) and convert him, but perhaps this is right for him at this time.

So, what does it mean?

Perhaps they are looking to repair the bullpen from within, and the goal for the trading deadline will be a bat (or maybe a SS, as some rumors suggest), as a hedge against Papi not returning to form quickly.

Or, another high profile move at the deadline to get an arm for the bullpen + Masterson to stabilize the pen?

This move does say that Buchholz is coming back to the rotation shortly.

[Buzzkill Pauley]

Not really. I hate this move. I don't think Masterson is a shut down reliever at this point. He does not have a killer pitch to get lefties out. So we are squandering a starter for next year to get 30 middle relief innings. This also kills our pitching depth unless the Red Sox see Zink as a major league starter.

Sorry, but this is a great move. After the last roadtrip's "deer-in-the-headlights" performance, the pen is teetering on the edge of blowing apart the entire season, and the best possible option for an eighth-inning arm is an internal candidate. Without making this move now, it would be impossible to see if just one arm is enough to trade for at the deadline, or whether more are necessary.

[Hairps]

FWIW (not much), Masterson's stats from his last stint in the bullpen (Cape Cod League):

.
	   PITCHERS   W  L  ERA  G SV  IP   H  AB  R ER HR BB SO
  Masterson, J.   3  1 1.15 22 10 31.1 19 105  4  4  1 9 39

[templeUsox]

Jesus christ I'm a moron today.....
yeah yeah I know it isn't just today.

Bailey has been playing both OF and 1B in Pawtucket. He also played both when he was up here previously.

[koufax32]

Not really. I hate this move. I don't think Masterson is a shut down reliever at this point. He does not have a killer pitch to get lefties out. So we are squandering a starter for next year to get 30 middle relief innings. This also kills our pitching depth unless the Red Sox see Zink as a major league starter.

I've only watched the Masterson pitch twice. In this past start specifically he seemed to get into a short groove throwing a slider down and in to lefties. He had a few inings in a row in which he controlled it rather well. IMO if he can develop that pitch to the point of relative consistency he would be able to be a very effective RP. His success against LHB seems to rest on that (this season anyway) because of what appears to be a reluctance to throw his sinker at the batters knees and have it tail back over the inside. Maybe it's too much exposure to Dice-K or something. So, let's keep a watchful eye on the slider. That, IMO, is the key to his inning by inning success (as opposed to batter by batter).

Edited by koufax32, 07 July 2008 - 03:44 PM.

[Jnai]

Do I win the prize on this one?
http://sonsofsamhorn...pic=32522&st=0#

The other thing this current thread has largely overlooked is that as discussed in the thread linked above, his slider and sinker are more effective pitches when he can throw them faster. At higher velocity, they have both a) more movement and b) I would argue more deception (because they both have extreme break and the faster velocity gives hitters less time to react). Because of these things, he tends to get more swings and misses out of his slider when he can throw it with more power. I expect that as a reliever, Masterson would have extra mph on both of these pitches.

Is he guaranteed to succeed in this new role? Absolutely not. But when we have what appears to be an ML ready pitcher (Buchholz) throwing essentially garbage innings in the minors, and a SP with very strong splits against RHH, I think it's the right move to make.

[Winger 03]

Are we in for "The Masterson Rules" some sort of bizarro subset of "The Joba Rules"?

[The Four Peters]

But he won't be able to pitch a full season next year.

I think I understand where you're coming from. Are you saying that this will limit his innings this year, which would then limit how many innings he could pitch next year (similar to what has happened with Clay this year)?

If that's the case, I would say that he wasn't going to pitch a full season this year anyways, and rather than get 5 or 6 more starts then get shut down with an injury to keep a cap on the innings, he can pitch those innings out of the pen for the rest of the year. I think having Masterson in the pen and Clay in the rotation will serve the MLB team better than 1 in the rotation and 1 in the minors, and not cost you much in terms of development.

[TomRicardo]

1. Can't the Sox control platoon splits better if Masterson is a reliever?

The Red Sox can't get Lefties out. Masterson is no better than Timlin, Hansen, and Lopez. In fact Masterson might be the worst out of that bunch. I don't see what he is adding. They need someone who can get lefties out.

2. While I realize that moving him back to the rotation would take some stretching out, I assume it would take less this season given that he has already done it, and the Sox still have at least 6 good starting pitchers with Colon, with single start fill-in material in Pauley/Zink/Hansack. In other words, if they need a 7th starter again, then Masterson can get ready while Pauley or whoever goes once.

Pauley and Hansack are not great options and Colon is injured. Right now Masterson is giving you solid starts each time he goes out there. Why give up a solid starter for a ROOGY? I would rather Buchholz in the bullpen.

[TomRicardo]

Sorry, but this is a great move. After the last roadtrip's "deer-in-the-headlights" performance, the pen is teetering on the edge of blowing apart the entire season, and the best possible option for an eighth-inning arm is an internal candidate. Without making this move now, it would be impossible to see if just one arm is enough to trade for at the deadline, or whether more are necessary.

Yes because the bullpen inability to get lefties out. Lefties, you know the bunch of people that eat Masterson alive.

[The Four Peters]

I would rather Buchholz in the bullpen.

Well after Buchholz spent this extended time in the minors working on his mechanics, why would you then throw him into a completely different role? While I don't think it's an absurd suggestion, I just think it would take him out of his element when their explicit goal is to get him to a comfort zone.

Also, there is a desire to limit the innings Masterson pitches this year. This is a way to do it while helping the big league club.

Although I do agree that it doesn't completely solve the bullpen woes. Getting lefties out is a concern, but I would rather Masterson there than Hansen or Timlin right now.

Edit: As you stated above with getting lefties out, no one else is getting them out either, so why not upgrade getting righties out, and continue to look for a solution to the lefties, without losing anything in the rotation?

Edited by The Four Peters, 07 July 2008 - 03:52 PM.

[jayhoz]

I think I understand where you're coming from. Are you saying that this will limit his innings this year, which would then limit how many innings he could pitch next year (similar to what has happened with Clay this year)?

If that's the case, I would say that he wasn't going to pitch a full season this year anyways, and rather than get 5 or 6 more starts then get shut down with an injury to keep a cap on the innings, he can pitch those innings out of the pen for the rest of the year. I think having Masterson in the pen and Clay in the rotation will serve the MLB team better than 1 in the rotation and 1 in the minors, and not cost you much in terms of development.

Year - Innings
2006 - 32
2007 - 153
2008 - 98

It's going to be tough for him to bank enough innings to match 2007 out of the pen.

[TomRicardo]

While this may be true, it's obvious that the Sox feel Masterson and Buchholz are redundant in terms of production. If they leave Masterson in the rotation, Buchholz is left to rot in Pawtucket. By shifting Masterson to the pen, it allows the Sox to utilize Buchholz, while possibly adding a productive piece to the pen.

Except that Buchholz may be better suited to fill the role of ace reliever.

Well after Buchholz spent this extended time in the minors working on his mechanics, why would you then throw him into a completely different role? While I don't think it's an absurd suggestion, I just think it would take him out of his element when their explicit goal is to get him to a comfort zone.

Because Buchholz can get lefties out. Also you taking Masterson out of his role the same way you would be taking Buchholz out of his. The difference is Masterson has been effective this year on a major league level as a starter and Buchholz has not. Masterson looks like he will be Hansen redux in the pen. Buchholz definitely gives you a better piece to fit the holes in the bullpen.

Edited by TomRicardo, 07 July 2008 - 03:55 PM.

[The Four Peters]

Year - Innings
2006 - 32
2007 - 153
2008 - 98

It's going to be tough for him to bank enough innings to match 2007 out of the pen.

B-Ref's server wasn't cooperating when I posted, so thank you.

Edit: However, if he kept starting, he would surpass the 153, and be shut down at some point (assuming 5-6 innings per start, with another 15-18 starts). Why not use him in the pen instead?

Edited by The Four Peters, 07 July 2008 - 03:56 PM.

[TheYellowDart5]

Lefties, you know the bunch of people that eat Masterson alive.

Tom, he's undoubtedly going to be a ROOGY; if he won't be used against LHers, why does his inability to get them out matter?

[Buzzkill Pauley]

The Red Sox can't get Lefties out. Masterson is no better than Timlin, Hansen, and Lopez. In fact Masterson might be the worst out of that bunch. I don't see what he is adding. They need someone who can get lefties out.



Pauley and Hansack are not great options and Colon is injured. Right now Masterson is giving you solid starts each time he goes out there. Why give up a solid starter for a ROOGY? I would rather Buchholz in the bullpen.

But how can Masterson be giving solid starts each time if he can't get Lefties out? That doesn't make sense...even if you're correct that the Sox have to be major trade-market players for a LHRP, to take over for whichever of the two black holes of suck in the pen isn't replaced by the return of the Jedi.

[Paul M]

They are not going to use him as a ROOGY I wouldn't think. I also tend to think he'll pitch better against LH as a reliever as well. I expect 2-inning stints and hopefully more like a Scot Shields type usage. I also think it's 50-50 he'll be a reliever next year anyway--Beckett, Lester, Dice K, Buchholz, and Wakefield in the rotation and they would still have Bowden as depth and probably someone else as a Colon-type signing (low risk).

[Rudy Pemberton]

Yes because the bullpen inability to get lefties out.

You do realize that the Sox have 4 relievers with an OPS against of 614 or lower against lefties, right? And that Aardsma, MDC, Okajima, and Papelbon have been more effective against LH batters than RH?

Vs LH, 2008
Lopez 226 / 338 / 403
Aardsma 220 / 343 / 271
Delcarmen 233 / 292 / 317
Okajima 220 / 270 / 305
Papelbon 203 / 253 / 284

Edited by Rudy Pemberton, 07 July 2008 - 03:57 PM.

[TomRicardo]

But how can Masterson be giving solid starts each time if he can't get Lefties out? That doesn't make sense...even if you're correct that the Sox have to be major trade-market players for a LHRP, to take over for whichever of the two black holes of suck in the pen isn't replaced by the return of the Jedi.

It is because he gets groundballs from righties to eliminate the .379 OBP he has allowed lefties this season. You know what the sick thing is? Masterson has been extremely lucky even for a sinkerball pitcher to only have .379 OBP from lefties. It should be over 400. That is horrendous.

[koufax32]

Right now Masterson is giving you solid starts each time he goes out there. Why give up a solid starter for a ROOGY? I would rather Buchholz in the bullpen.

It's somewhat ironic that much of the opposition to Masterson to the pen comes from the perspective of how this will affect him going forward. The consensus around baseball seems to be that Masterson is destined for the bullpen anyway. I'm not sure what the stated or unstated five year plan might be but if he is indeed to become a RP this starts him down that path. One thing is certain nobody expects Buchholz to be a RP as he matures in his career. If we only look at the future/going forward issue this is a perfectly logical move.

Another perspective of this might be looking at Masterson's development from the "Papelbon rules" perspective (since every highly touted pitcher has his own set of rules now-a-days). Let him gain valuable experience in the pen and then let him go back the next year.

Buchholz' replacing Masterson doesn't scare me because it's entirely reasonable that Buch would be able to provide a reasonable facsimile of Masterson's perfomance so far. In addition I think we all agree that Buchholz has a chance to be much better this year than Masterson did (as a starter). Good move and wise use of resources IMO.

[Jnai]

The Red Sox can't get Lefties out. Masterson is no better than Timlin, Hansen, and Lopez. In fact Masterson might be the worst out of that bunch. I don't see what he is adding. They need someone who can get lefties out.

Actually, Delcarmen does it well enough, presumably with the change. Timlin doesn't really get anyone out, and Hansen is a FB/Slider guy so that obviously wont work against LHH. Lopez has bad splits this year.

Okajima has been bad recently, but he was also effective against LHH last year (though he was effective against everyone).

Pauley and Hansack are not great options and Colon is injured. Right now Masterson is giving you solid starts each time he goes out there. Why give up a solid starter for a ROOGY? I would rather Buchholz in the bullpen.

I don't think he will be used explicitly as a ROOGY, but I do think he will primarily face RHH. What I'm trying to say is, I don't think you'll see him face one batter and leave, but that Tito will be, as always, careful with the matchups.

A number of other people have noted that with the exception of his ERA, Masterson's motto as a starter could be, "I also like to live dangerously". He allows a lot of baserunners and has gotten great luck with his sinker. His dominance of RHH has really carried him this far. I see no reason why you wouldn't want to substitute this for a guy who you think is ML ready and put your RHH dominance in the pen where it can really be exploited.

[NomarRS05]

You do realize that the Sox have 4 relievers with an OPS against of 614 or lower against lefties, right? And that Aardsma, MDC, Okajima, and Papelbon have been more effective against LH batters than RH?

Vs LH, 2008
Lopez 226 / 338 / 403
Aardsma 220 / 343 / 271
Delcarmen 233 / 292 / 317
Okajima 220 / 270 / 305
Papelbon 203 / 253 / 284

Good points here. When you look at Okajima's left/right splits, he's been about twice as effective against lefties in 2008. He and Masterson could combine to make for one awfully effective 8th-inning reliever.

[Joshv02]

Masterson is no better than Timlin, Hansen, and Lopez. In fact Masterson might be the worst out of that bunch. I don't see what he is adding. They need someone who can get lefties out.

Yes. That is my point. If he is in the bullpen, the Red Sox can control who he faces better.

Pauley and Hansack are not great options and Colon is injured. Right now Masterson is giving you solid starts each time he goes out there. Why give up a solid starter for a ROOGY? I would rather Buchholz in the bullpen.

Pauley and Hansack are fine options to be #7/#8 starters for one start while Masterson gets back into starter shape if you need another starter because someone is hurt (including Colon). Masterson isn't off the team. He hasn't been "given up." If they need multiple starts than Masterson would be back in the rotation, I assume. I don't get this vehemence.

Buchholz is not a reliever. This debate took place here, and elsewhere, last year. He just isn't a reliever. Plus, he is a better pitcher than Masterson.

Timlin and Hansen can't get lefties. Why do you say the Red Sox can't get lefties out?

vs LHB

Player	R/G	G	IP	H	R	ER	HR	HBP	BB	SO	FIP
Papelbon	3.48	37	20.67	15	8	6	1	0	5	25	2.14
Lopez	3.00	39	18	14	6	4	2	1	10	12	4.98
Aardsma	2.81	29	16	13	5	5	0	1	10	14	3.33
Delcarmen	4.50	35	16	14	8	8	0	0	5	17	2.01
Okajima	2.35	32	15.3	13	4	4	1	0	4	17	2.61
Total	3.24		86	69	31	27	4	2	34	85	3.01

(Prior table left off Okajima inexplicably.)

Edited by Joshv02, 07 July 2008 - 04:33 PM.

[DosEquisMatsuzaka]

Right now Masterson has a combined 98.1IP between AA, AAA and MLB. If he goes down and gets converted to a reliever for the remainder of the season and he comes back as a reliever in THE mold of say Derek Lowe circa 1999/2000 he can get nearly 50IP before the end of the season including his ml IP while converting to a reliever. he could also possibly throw another 18IP in the post season (assuming they make it and go deep) putting him at 166IP for the season. That wouldn't stop him from throwing 190+IP next year.