13 replies to this topic

[Rough Carrigan]

And we see that Matsuzaka almost certainly left the DL too early. Hooray for being stoic and lying to the trainers. Hooray for being tough and totally fucking your team out of a game because you were incapable of facing major league hitters. Hooray!

[yecul]

And we see that Matsuzaka almost certainly left the DL too early. Hooray for being stoic and lying to the trainers. Hooray for being tough and totally fucking your team out of a game because you were incapable of facing major league hitters. Hooray!

Unfortunately, you have no idea what you are talking about otherwise one might inquire about your inside knowledge.

We should not be questioning Matsuzaka. We should be questioning their review of his rehab start. Was he different today than he was then? While his rehab start was had an effective stat line, how did he look?

If he pitched like his old self in that game and was different today, then what happened? If he pitched like this in that game then why would they ever put him in there today?

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

And we see that Matsuzaka almost certainly left the DL too early. Hooray for being stoic and lying to the trainers. Hooray for being tough and totally fucking your team out of a game because you were incapable of facing major league hitters. Hooray!

Though reportedly he felt no discomfort after leaving the mound. Could be he just had a crappy outing, for whatever reason, and isn't still hurt and didn't lie to the trainers. Seems like kind of a leap to assume the worst like that. Maybe he just sucked today. It happens.

[Rough Carrigan]

Yes. It is a leap. it's conjecture. But he looked horrible. He missed by 3 feet with some of his pitches. This wasn't a guy who was missing by the width of a baseball. And the Fenway Park gun had none of his fastballs over 90 mph unless I missed one. It's conjecture but it's supported by his total lack of command and his lack of stuff. If he has neither of those, how ready to pitch was he? In what element of the game was he ready to go?

Edit additon: And "reports" of no discomfort are nearly meaningless. We could probably find reports that Scott Williamson's health was fine just days before Dr. Tim Kremchek(sp?) said his elbow looked like a grenade had gone off in it. We could probably find stoic disavowals of any problem from Schilling after he messed up his ankle against the Angels in 2004. Matsuzaka couldn't throw his fastball over 90 and he had no command. Yecul's right in that maybe the Sox were stupid in thinking he was ready. But someone was very very wrong and a game was pissed away as a result.

Edited by Rough Carrigan, 21 June 2008 - 08:49 PM.

[dcmissle]

Yes. It is a leap. it's conjecture. But he looked horrible. He missed by 3 feet with some of his pitches. This wasn't a guy who was missing by the width of a baseball. And the Fenway Park gun had none of his fastballs over 90 mph unless I missed one. It's conjecture but it's supported by his total lack of command and his lack of stuff. If he has neither of those, how ready to pitch was he? In what element of the game was he ready to go?

Edit additon: And "reports" of no discomfort are nearly meaningless. We could probably find reports that Scott Williamson's health was fine just days before Dr. Tim Kremchek(sp?) said his elbow looked like a grenade had gone off in it. We could probably find stoic disavowals of any problem from Schilling after he messed up his ankle against the Angels in 2004. Matsuzaka couldn't throw his fastball over 90 and he had no command. Yecul's right in that maybe the Sox were stupid in thinking he was ready. But someone was very very wrong and a game was pissed away as a result.

Don't recall seeing a pitch over 89. It's incredibly foolish if your conjecture is on the mark, as the 8 starters would be down to 5 were Dice-K lost for the season (I don't see how you can bank on Colon). And 2 of those 5 -- Masterson and Buchholz -- have yet to sustain success over an entire ML season.

[scotian1]

The fact that none of his fastballs were over 90 when he usually registers 92-93 on a regular basis and touches 94 on occasion raises some concern. What is the reason for this? Is there still a physical problem or does he need to rebuild some lost arm strength? In either case probably should have had another rehab start with Pawtucket.

[SouthernBoSox]

Amarshal asked me at soxprospects about what I saw today. I basically broke down what we all saw as a huge pile of suck. He asked if he was hurt. I repsonded with saying that I didn't feel he was hurt as much as he wasn't as strong as he should be. I don't think he's still hurt. But he simply isn't as strong as he was before he went on the DL. He needed another start, maybe two. He was rushed, thats obvious. Hopefully he bounces back and pitches decent next start. But he had nothing behind any of his pitches today.

I think Theo would admit that he needed another start in AAA, for sure.

Edited by SouthernBoSox, 21 June 2008 - 10:12 PM.

[Jnai]

Yes. It is a leap. it's conjecture. But he looked horrible. He missed by 3 feet with some of his pitches. This wasn't a guy who was missing by the width of a baseball. And the Fenway Park gun had none of his fastballs over 90 mph unless I missed one. It's conjecture but it's supported by his total lack of command and his lack of stuff. If he has neither of those, how ready to pitch was he? In what element of the game was he ready to go?

Edit additon: And "reports" of no discomfort are nearly meaningless. We could probably find reports that Scott Williamson's health was fine just days before Dr. Tim Kremchek(sp?) said his elbow looked like a grenade had gone off in it. We could probably find stoic disavowals of any problem from Schilling after he messed up his ankle against the Angels in 2004. Matsuzaka couldn't throw his fastball over 90 and he had no command. Yecul's right in that maybe the Sox were stupid in thinking he was ready. But someone was very very wrong and a game was pissed away as a result.

I am not disagreeing with your assessment that he sucked, but he did throw over 90.

If you'd like, all of the data from his start is here:
http://brooksbasebal...mp;prevDate=621

Edited by Jnai, 21 June 2008 - 10:37 PM.

[MidnightC]

Via Projo:

When the Red Sox placed him on the DL May 30 (retroactive to May 28), there was plenty of discussion between Matsuzaka and management about the possibility of a rehab start. After he accepted the decision, he was good in that start for the PawSox . But when he was asked yesterday if he came back too soon and maybe needed another rehab appearance, he disregarded that notion.

“I didn’t feel like I needed it,” he said.

He did say he felt a little anxiety, both mentally and physically, heading into the game. His primary concern was just to throw the ball and hoped he could continue his progress from before he went on the DL. That didn’t happen.

[Rough Carrigan]

So, reading between the lines, one can't help but infer that he didn't want to have *any* rehab starts. And now it seems like he needed at least two.

[Redkluzu]

So, reading between the lines, one can't help but infer that he didn't want to have *any* rehab starts. And now it seems like he needed at least two.

An interesting point about DiceK's start. Remy and Orsillo were pretty adamant tonight that according to John Farrell, there was nothing wrong with Matzuzaka yesterday. Remy said that he didn't think DiceK had needed another rehab start and that he'd just had a poor performance. Now, whether they were just protecting the team or not was a bit unclear. DiceK will make his next start.

[Sprowl]

After reviewing the Pitchfx data, it looks to me like DiceK's problem was wildness, both in and out of the strike zone. He couldn't throw his slurve for strikes, and he couldn't control the fastball in the strike zone. There's some difficulty in tracking down which pitches got hit the hardest, since Pitchfx still does a poor job of classifying DiceK's faster pitches, especially the cutter and hard slider (which may be the same). Nevertheless, most of the solid contact came on fastballs, including the Miles home run, Glaus single, and Kennedy double. Velocity looked like a problem too: while his fastball eventually got up to 92, most of the first inning was 89-91, and when he threw those fastballs for strikes, he was getting hammered.

[Tokyo Sox]

Japanese press reporting Daisuke threw an 86-pitch bullpen session yesterday in preparation for his start on the 27th vs Houston. According to Farrell his command and velocity were both better. FWIW.

[joewoodfan]

Now, Dice-K clearly put in a poor outing, but on the matter of his emergence from the DL, this start reminded me of his opening start in Tokyo, where he walked several batters, logged a wild pitch, and a hit batsman (or two). For that start, he threw about 50% of his pitches for strikes, and he was at a similar percentage for strikes this time around as well. (Historically, he seems to hover closer to 60%.) I'd put that down as nerves.

In terms of arm strength, hitting 89 vs 92 or 93 could be nerves, too. If I were in his shoes, I wouldn't want to overdo it either, even if I'd pitched that hard in a bullpen session beforehand. (The immediate counter of course, is "why don't you rehab him until he's confident with his arm?")

To which I would argue: the nerves will kick in for him the first time he goes out anyway. Might as well make that come sooner rather than later.