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Manny-Youks


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#1 ctsoxfan5

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Posted 06 June 2008 - 04:32 PM

Well, it didn't take long for a "source" to pop up:

A Red Sox source told ESPNdeportes.com's Enrique Rojas that the cause of the dugout disagreement was Youkilis' temper following a poor at-bat.

"It all happened because Manny complained about Youkilis' habit of throwing bats, helmets and other objects in the dugout when he has a bad at-bat, something that has become a constant practice," the source said.

"Other players have told Youkilis in the past about the situation, which makes him look selfish and that he is more worried about each at-bat than about the team. If Boston is winning easily, there's no reason to throw objects all over the dugout because of a bad at-bat.

"There was a meeting where the team let Youkilis know that many of his teammates were tired of his explosive reactions for each bad plate appearance. It became very bothersome ... more so when the team is winning and it's in first place. There's not much room for individualistic attitudes."


From ESPN

#2 JimD

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Posted 06 June 2008 - 04:34 PM

Well, it didn't take long for a "source" to pop up:
From ESPN


The ESPNdeportes clue should narrow it down a bit.

#3 SoxScout


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Posted 06 June 2008 - 04:35 PM

That is a lot more interesting than just Manny telling him to stop doing.

#4 86spike


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Posted 06 June 2008 - 04:35 PM

good

those youk tantrums are lame

time for him to lay off the redbulls

#5 Koufax

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Posted 06 June 2008 - 04:36 PM

Well, it didn't take long for a "source" to pop up:
From ESPN


Interesting in that it appears that Manny is the mature one here, and Youks is the baby. Chronological age supports this, of course, but Manny as man-child is such an ingrained image that it is easy to overlook the ways in which he is, in relative terms, a wise elder in the dugout.

#6 NomarRS05

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Posted 06 June 2008 - 04:37 PM

Why does this bother people? It means Youks cares about his performance. Are there people in that clubhouse who are actually questioning his commitment to winning? Ridiculous.

Edited by NomarRS05, 06 June 2008 - 04:38 PM.


#7 ctsoxfan5

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Posted 06 June 2008 - 04:44 PM

Similar story from Edes:

According to three sources, Manny had raised objections to Youkilis throwing equipment around in the dugout after flying deep to center in the fourth inning, and advised him to "cut that (expletive) out. Youkilis apparently didn't take kindly to the remark, said something, and Manny swiped at him.


Edes

#8 IronManny

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Posted 06 June 2008 - 04:46 PM

Why does this bother people? It means Youks cares about his performance. Are there people in that clubhouse who are actually questioning his commitment to winning? Ridiculous.


Childish temper-tantrums may be indicative of a failure to get what you want, but aren't necessary indicative of a commitment to winning - especially when it drives the rest of your team nuts. Would you want someone in your office who blows up and goes crazy whenever he has a personal failure? Probably not - in most cases this is bad for the group/team as a whole.

#9 reggiecleveland


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Posted 06 June 2008 - 04:47 PM

My first reaction was Manny had a "that's enough moment" and called Youk's bluff. This fits that, especially when you look at how rarely Manny complains about calls, or has emotional reactions of any kind. This is a rehash, but sometimes people say Manny hits despite his relaxed attitude. Perhaps he hits because of his even emotions. Time and time again Manny will get fooled on a pitch, strike out then later will be looking for a certain pitch and hit it a mile. I don't think you do that, day in day out ,while flying off the handle.

edit ( I just saw this)

Why does this bother people? It means Youks cares about his performance. Are there people in that clubhouse who are actually questioning his commitment to winning? Ridiculous.


This is almost like, "I only beat you because I love you so much!" It is better to control yourself. Youks never did this crap when he was riding the Pawtucket shuttle because he was just a rook and he knew he couldn't get away with it. I don't buy the Paul Oneill or John Mcenroe just want to win so much they lose it all the time line of reasoning. In fact losi ng it hurts your performance most of the time.

Edited by reggiecleveland, 06 June 2008 - 04:51 PM.


#10 NYCSox


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Posted 06 June 2008 - 04:49 PM

good

those youk tantrums are lame

time for him to lay off the redbulls


I agree. It was ridiculous for Paul O'Neill to smash water coolers after every out and it's equally silly for Youks. Sometimes it's OK to do so, but not on a regular basis.

#11 syoo8

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Posted 06 June 2008 - 04:51 PM

Why does this bother people? It means Youks cares about his performance. Are there people in that clubhouse who are actually questioning his commitment to winning? Ridiculous.

I think it bothers the club because that kind of behavior implies that for Youkilis, it is about him as opposed to the team.

I often see Manny walking back to the clubhouse smiling after a pop-out or strike-out. I imagine that it is one of his strengths as a hitter, being able to let go of previous failures. Youkilis, on the other hand, clawed his way to the major-league level through that overused term "grit", proving everyone wrong at each level that he "couldn't be a major-leaguer" (everyone except for Billy Beane and Theo, of course.) It is totally understandable to me that there could be friction between Youkilis and Manny, given their respective dispositions.

#12 TheoShmeo


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Posted 06 June 2008 - 04:52 PM

Interesting in that it appears that Manny is the mature one here, and Youks is the baby. Chronological age supports this, of course, but Manny as man-child is such an ingrained image that it is easy to overlook the ways in which he is, in relative terms, a wise elder in the dugout.

To be clear, I don't think the Manny-Youks tiff was a big deal. Stuff happens. But the fact that Manny is probably right that Youks throwing equipment when he makes an out is something to be avoided, especially when the team is doing well, doesn't mean that he was right to take a swipe at Youks under any circumstances and in the dugout in front of the cameras in particular. Said differently, I don't think either of them covered themselves in glory on this one.

#13 Flynn4ever

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Posted 06 June 2008 - 04:54 PM

Childish temper-tantrums may be indicative of a failure to get what you want, but aren't necessary indicative of a commitment to winning - especially when it drives the rest of your team nuts. Would you want someone in your office who blows up and goes crazy whenever he has a personal failure? Probably not - in most cases this is bad for the group/team as a whole.

This is spot-on. I love Youks' fieriness, but I don't have to sit next to him and don't want to, PLUS the situation makes it seem more selfish than fiery. We are crushing the formerly-fist-place Rays, so it does look more like a quest for glory.

#14 bigdgp

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Posted 06 June 2008 - 04:55 PM

Why does this bother people? It means Youks cares about his performance. Are there people in that clubhouse who are actually questioning his commitment to winning? Ridiculous.


It seems to have bothered Manny enough for him to say something to Youkilis about it. The implication here is that Youkilis' behavior has been/is distracting enough that it is affecting other players' performance and/or attitudes. So I don't think the issue is so much that they are questioning his committment to winning as they are questioning him understanding that his actions are having a negative impact on other player's on the team. In turn if he is that committed to winning learn how to take out your frustrations in way that doesn't negatively impact other people. I recognize that much of this is pure speculation on my part, but it would seem to make sense given what's taken place.

#15 pdaj

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Posted 06 June 2008 - 05:15 PM

It's all about anxiety. People hate to feel it. For some, just being around a fight, verbal disagreement, or temper tantrum can create anxiety. In a clubhouse, you have guys wanting to be relaxed and focused. So when a guy starts cussing and throwing equipment everytime he strikes out, some players probably get anxious. I'm sure Dr. Phil would agree.

#16 staz


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Posted 06 June 2008 - 06:03 PM

This is spot-on. I love Youks' fieriness, but I don't have to sit next to him and don't want to, PLUS the situation makes it seem more selfish than fiery. We are crushing the formerly-fist-place Rays, so it does look more like a quest for glory.

I just have a hard time believing Youks is out on some quest for personal glory. I won't pretend to know the guy, but everything I've seen and read suggests he's very much a team guy with quite the opposite attitude.

Manny should have gone to Tito with the problem. Even if he felt he could remedy the situation directly, there's a time and a place for criticism and this was neither.

#17 Frisbetarian


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Posted 06 June 2008 - 06:17 PM

I just have a hard time believing Youks is out on some quest for personal glory. I won't pretend to know the guy, but everything I've seen and read suggests he's very much a team guy with quite the opposite attitude.

Manny should have gone to Tito with the problem. Even if he felt he could remedy the situation directly, there's a time and a place for criticism and this was neither.



According to the article, other players talked to Youkilis about it, and there was a team meeting where it was discussed.

My guess is that Manny was more concerned with dodging bats and helmets in the dugout than worrying about Youkilis looking like a dick and having temper tantrums while the team is up 6 runs. Still, KY needs to stop this behavior if it bothers his teammates and makes him an object of scorn for other clubs.

#18 OilCanShotTupac


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Posted 06 June 2008 - 06:36 PM

I just have a hard time believing Youks is out on some quest for personal glory. I won't pretend to know the guy, but everything I've seen and read suggests he's very much a team guy with quite the opposite attitude.

Manny should have gone to Tito with the problem. Even if he felt he could remedy the situation directly, there's a time and a place for criticism and this was neither.



When you act provocatively, you provoke people, and you shouldn't be surprised when people are provoked on the spot.

I have no problem with Manny getting right in his face and telling him to cut the bullshit.

#19 Sooner Steve

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Posted 06 June 2008 - 07:01 PM

According to the article, other players talked to Youkilis about it, and there was a team meeting where it was discussed.

My guess is that Manny was more concerned with dodging bats and helmets in the dugout than worrying about Youkilis looking like a dick and having temper tantrums while the team is up 6 runs. Still, KY needs to stop this behavior if it bothers his teammates and makes him an object of scorn for other clubs.



this wasn't gator & hit dawg going at it over ethnically charged comments (if i recall that was the last time a scrum broke out in our own dugout and the reason why)...

spot on fris...that crap gets old - even on as low as a highschool level where we had a similar situation on my son's team...

i love fiery guys - i was and still am at times - one of those guys who wears his emotions on his sleeve but living and dying w/every at bat to the point of putting your teammates in jeapordy w/your refusal to control yourself thru your temper tantrums is a selfish and self-absorbed act...

good job manster

HANTA YO

#20 Soxfan in Fla


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Posted 06 June 2008 - 08:42 PM

Hell it could be that Manny had to duck one helmet too many from yet another Youks "red ass moment" and decided to tell him to cut it the fuck out. Of course tensions were already high after the brawl.

#21 ers1918

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Posted 06 June 2008 - 09:00 PM

No one else finds it ironic that someone that we all love under the "Manny being Manny" banner wants to call someone out because they think their behavior is unacceptable?

#22 Bowlerman9


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Posted 06 June 2008 - 09:20 PM

No one else finds it ironic that someone that we all love under the "Manny being Manny" banner wants to call someone out because they think their behavior is unacceptable?


No, because "Manny Being Manny" is usually funny and in the instances where he is a distraction, I would assume someone talks to him about it (Pedro/Millar/Ortiz/Tito/etc) and it probably takes care of it. And in the circumstances where he was a big distraction (demanding trades, late to spring training) it was something every ball player might go through and isnt an "easy fix".

Manny is a good teammate, even though aloof.

If Youkilis is being a buzzkill every time the Sox are ahead or having a good time and still doesnt do anything to try to fix it after being talked to by the rest of the team, thats a problem far bigger than "Manny Being Manny".

#23 staz


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Posted 06 June 2008 - 09:28 PM

No one else finds it ironic that someone that we all love under the "Manny being Manny" banner wants to call someone out because they think their behavior is unacceptable?

I was reading replies to my previous post and about to thank them for making me reconsider my position (I hadn't read the entire article) when this very point dawned on me. I mean, Manny can have frequent mental lapses and just shrug it off with a shit-eating grin but "Youks being Youks" doesn't fly? Maybe it's time to just tune it out. Nomar fiddled with his batting glove, Schilling's more than happy to tell anyone exactly how he feels about any subject (not a fault, but certainly something that could get old to teammates after awhile), but Youks can't get pissed off?

I can certainly see how that could get old too, but it does seem odd to single him out.

#24 JayMags71


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Posted 06 June 2008 - 09:28 PM

No one else finds it ironic that someone that we all love under the "Manny being Manny" banner wants to call someone out because they think their behavior is unacceptable?

Not many, no. Youks' behavior IS unacceptable. Being forced to wind your way through the dugout, trying not to turn an ankle on one of many bats lying on the ground is a pain in the ass the first time. The sixth or seventh time, it's unbearable.

More importantly, this definition of "irony" is on a par with Alanis Morrisette.

#25 ers1918

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Posted 06 June 2008 - 09:59 PM

I have to call BS on this - 'Manny being Manny' is tolerated because of (a) his production and (b) a fear that calling him on every example of poor team behavior may lead to an extended mental break. That doesn't mean he isn't a good team-mate, but as a collective we have all just decided that his 'nonsense' will be tolerated.

I am ok with people being willing to tolerate different behavior because all things in sport aren't created equal, but let's at least call a flat digging implement what it is.

If Youk had taken a slap at Manny because Manny had reacted to being called out on whatever behavior was just Manny being Manny today, we would be all over Youkilis.

Edited by ers1918, 06 June 2008 - 10:00 PM.


#26 The Allented Mr Ripley


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Posted 06 June 2008 - 10:02 PM

Sox fans always thought O'Neill was a douchebag for this sort of stuff (rightfully so). Youkilis has always walked the thin line between being overly competitive and being a total distraction when it comes to the fallout from his unsuccessful at-bats, and on the basis of the team meetings to address such behavior, he's crossed it a few times. There's no difference between him and O'Neill in this regard.

What's funny is that there's a line of people around the block who want to crucify J.D. Drew for allegedly not caring, simply because he can hold a poker face, when in reality, an excessively demonstrative guy like Youkilis can cause more problems in the long run in terms of his priorities and the ability to control his behavior.

Edited by The Allented Mr Ripley, 06 June 2008 - 10:05 PM.


#27 Bowlerman9


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Posted 06 June 2008 - 10:17 PM

I was reading replies to my previous post and about to thank them for making me reconsider my position (I hadn't read the entire article) when this very point dawned on me. I mean, Manny can have frequent mental lapses and just shrug it off with a shit-eating grin but "Youks being Youks" doesn't fly? Maybe it's time to just tune it out. Nomar fiddled with his batting glove, Schilling's more than happy to tell anyone exactly how he feels about any subject (not a fault, but certainly something that could get old to teammates after awhile), but Youks can't get pissed off?

I can certainly see how that could get old too, but it does seem odd to single him out.


You're missing the point. Its not about "Youks getting pissed off." Its about him pissing in everyone's corn flakes.

Think about it - the Sox have a pretty loose, fun team. People are always joking around having a good time. When they need to be serious, the leaders take over. When they want to have fun, the jokesters take over.

There is nothing wrong with Youkilis getting upset at himself when he strikes out. Or when he is rung up on what he considers a bad call. But when the Sox are winning 7-1, everyone in the dugout is in a pretty good mood. The team is going to win. They stuck together, as a team, through a huge brawl with a team they are battling for the division lead, and they are killing them. And Youkilis comes back to the dugout all pissed off.

Of a 7-1 game. When everyone else is happy.

Every individual should try to do their best, and we know Youkilis holds himself to very high standards. But shouldnt a 7-1 lead make everyone happy? His teammates dont need his negative emotions in the dugout when they are winning. So they talked to him about it, and he did nothing about it. Thats the problem.

Imagine someone in your office/workplace who was always negative, even when everyone else in the office was happy. How would you feel about that person?

#28 OilCanShotTupac


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Posted 06 June 2008 - 10:41 PM

No one else finds it ironic that someone that we all love under the "Manny being Manny" banner wants to call someone out because they think their behavior is unacceptable?


You have a point, to a certain extent.

But the difference is that Manny's goofs or blunders usually are lapses of concentration in the field or on the bases (never at bat). That's bad, but he's not purposely bothering anyone else.

Youk is being aggressive all over the dugout, getting up in other people's faces and throwing shit around. That's a willful imposition on the people around him.

he needs to cut the crap.

#29 Goosewptc


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Posted 07 June 2008 - 12:36 AM

When you reach this level of baseball all eyes are on you - the professional ballplayer. Each player is expected to perform to the best of his ability, of course, but because all eyes are on you, it's also expected that you perform within the standards of your position of status.

If you lollygag a ball in the outfield and that ball drops in front of you, you should show some quick emotion/reaction that lets the fans understand that you are kicking yourself for the screw up. Hit yourself in the head to show that you fucked up.

If an infielder doesn't get down on a ground ball and it gets 'tween your legs, stay down, drop your head and take a practice grounder - an air grounder if you will. Like taking a practice stroke a couple times after missing a short putt.

Throw a hanging slider that gets yanked out of the park and ties the game? Not a big deal - you fucked up. Show your teammates and your fans that you made a mistake. Scream into your glove, kick a little mound dirt or just do the kimchi squat like BK Kim did in the '01 series....twice. I can't condone what Ted Lilly did last year during the playoffs when he gave up a home run, but holy cow that was hilarious.

But if you strike out - whether it's a swinging strike or a called strike - do not take your personal frustration back to the dugout with you to the point that you look retarded. Slam your bat into the bat rack and/or your helmet into the helmet rack but keep your mouth shut. A tantrum morphs into a hissy-fit after you turn 4 years old.

I believe that showing your emotion should be quick and to the point and then get ready for the next pitch. Period.

The coaching staff, IMO, should have handled any dugout/clubhouse issues long before it came to this. But I can also understand their position. After all, part of their job is being a babysitter.

It's a well known fact that retards have always been more manageable than babies.

I like that Manny did this.

#30 Senorec

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 12:58 AM

The coaching staff, IMO, should have handled any dugout/clubhouse issues long before it came to this. But I can also understand their position. After all, part of their job is being a babysitter.

They actually already tried. There was a team meeting where players and coaches addressed Youk on this issue. I guess it just didn't take.

#31 Flynn4ever

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 01:12 AM

Youks can't get pissed off?

I can certainly see how that could get old too, but it does seem odd to single him out.


Agreed, and you were right in your previous post when you said you believed Youks to be a 'team player' but I was insinuating earlier that I could understand how his teammates might perceive his outbursts of being a selfish act.

#32 Goosewptc


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Posted 07 June 2008 - 01:34 AM

They actually already tried. There was a team meeting where players and coaches addressed Youk on this issue. I guess it just didn't take.

Then it's time to sit him down....on the bench....and let that play out in his massive melon. Valuable to the team? Yes. Better than anybody else that takes the field? Nope.

If you defy general management there are times that you become a leader for doing so. If you defy your on-field management, you may become a polyp. Defying your teammates makes you a cancer.

I respect the drive of this dude, but I can not agree with his displays of fucktardedness. It's embarrassing and it has to go.

I love this team, but I'm almost rooting for Youks to fuck up. I hate a shitty/selfish attitude.

#33 Ed Hillel


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Posted 07 June 2008 - 02:27 AM

I have to call BS on this - 'Manny being Manny' is tolerated because of (a) his production and (b) a fear that calling him on every example of poor team behavior may lead to an extended mental break. That doesn't mean he isn't a good team-mate, but as a collective we have all just decided that his 'nonsense' will be tolerated.

I am ok with people being willing to tolerate different behavior because all things in sport aren't created equal, but let's at least call a flat digging implement what it is.

If Youk had taken a slap at Manny because Manny had reacted to being called out on whatever behavior was just Manny being Manny today, we would be all over Youkilis.


Manny may do some goofy shit once in a while, but the fact remains that Manny is the first to show up for practice and the last to leave, according to all reports. Believe it or not, the man leads by example because of the tremendous time and effort he puts into his routine. Youklils, while an extremely hard worker, acts like a little bitch far too often. Even in Little League, teammates get sick of the the guy that runs to the bench and cries every time something bad happens, especially when said individual throws shit around and puts teammates at risk. In this case, Youks had been asked to stop throwing tempertantrums, yet he persisted. From the footage, it appears that Manny told him to stop, Youks got in his face, and Manny slapped the fuck out of him for acting like a child. Youks then, as he is wont to do, cried again and acted like the victim. Enough is enough.

Sorry, but it's time for Youks to stop crying and swearing when he is in a slump. He's not 12 year old anymore. He shouldn't be taking his shit out on anyone else, and he should understand that he may be doing that even it if isn't his intention.

Edited by Ed Hillel, 07 June 2008 - 08:40 AM.


#34 hair and cheese

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 04:10 AM

Manny hasnt really been "Manny" this year. So far this year the new and improved Manny worked out with his pal Youk in AZ, showed up at camp on time, and is having as much fun as he has had in a long time. He is even talking to the media. It's just a little strange and rare to see Manny acting in a leadership role.

It's truly refreshing to hear his current and former team mates gush about his abilities. 2-3 years ago it wasnt uncommon for him to be described as goofy or a malcontent. Something like that. Today he is eclectic and fun loving. He deserves a lot of credit. Maybe he has just matured. Bottom line, I think he just really wants to stay here.

In the past he has been accused of being lazy and quitting on his team mates. There probably was some truth to that. These days hes
got 500 bombs and he wears two rings. With Papi out, and the way he's going, he could line himself up for his first MVP.

Edited by hair and cheese, 07 June 2008 - 04:12 AM.


#35 Worst Trade Evah


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Posted 07 June 2008 - 07:40 AM

Roger Angell has a great anecdote about Willie Stargell struggling in the 1971 World Series, and the maturity of his reaction. I don't have a copy here and google isn't producing it. Anyone have that? As I recall it, Stargell kept striking out, and quietly trudged back to the dugout after. He saw it as a test of maturity, that there comes a time when a man had to decide to be a man, and just endure a difficult situation.

Personally, I'm tired of people acting out. There's altogether too much acting out. Just bottle it up inside, please. Give me Drew's calm professionalism over Youk's baby antics any day. I don't want robots out there (it's especially fun when they have fun), but the water-cooler smashing red-ass thing is annoying.

#36 BoSoxLady


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Posted 07 June 2008 - 07:54 AM

Roger Angell has a great anecdote about Willie Stargell struggling in the 1971 World Series, and the maturity of his reaction. I don't have a copy here and google isn't producing it. Anyone have that? As I recall it, Stargell kept striking out, and quietly trudged back to the dugout after. He saw it as a test of maturity, that there comes a time when a man had to decide to be a man, and just endure a difficult situation.


In his first World Series, 1971, Stargell hit .208 with no home runs. The writer Roger Angell stopped by Stargell's locker after the sixth game in '71 and asked how he could show no distress. "He gestured toward his four-year-old son," Angell wrote, "and murmured, `There's a time in life when a man has to decide whether he's going to be a man.'"


I wish the incident didn't happen in the dugout but I'm pleased that Manny called Youks on his behavior. If the team asked Youks to cut the shit, he should have. FWIW, I noticed Youks appeared more docile last night.

Speaking of bitchin', Pedroia needs to also take a chill pill. He whines after every strike call, and the Sox have developed a reputation as a bunch of whiners. This would be a good time to mend all of their ways.

#37 Don Buddin

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 08:08 AM

Speaking of Pedroia.

My memory is not that good on this so someone with a better one can correct me but, I seem to remember earlier this year Pedroia striking out and acting with emotion, bouncing his helmet off the ground or something. The next day he was quoted as apologizing for his actions.

It was the apology that caught my attention. I thought, 'apologize for what? for being upset you struck out? i want my guys to be upset when they strike out'.

Now I wonder, was this after the alleged team meeting where this sort of thing was discussed? Did Pedroia get the message and is trying to act more mature where Youk hasn't gotten the message yet?

#38 CanuckSoxGirl

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 08:19 AM

I wish the incident didn't happen in the dugout but I'm pleased that Manny called Youks on his behavior. If the team asked Youks to cut the shit, he should have. FWIW, I noticed Youks appeared more docile last night.

Speaking of bitchin', Pedroia needs to also take a chill pill. He whines after every strike call, and the Sox have developed a reputation as a bunch of whiners. This would be a good time to mend all of their ways.


BSL beat me to it....one thing I was thinking while reading through this thread was Pedroia and how he has definitely shown major flares of temper when he doesn't get on base.

There are players who rarely gripe at strikeouts --- Manny, Lowell, Varitek, Drew...they sit down and shut up. Remember the huge batting slump Manny was in during '99 ALDS playing for Cleveland? He just shook his head, sat down and didn't say a word after every strikeout. (I was pleased at the time with his slump, because he & Thome were bloody terrors....but I remember how the Cleveland announcers were killing him over his perceived "lack of passion".)

Also, there is no Yankee that I have ever despised more than Paul O'Neill...his hissy fits after striking out were embarassing, and the announcers alluding to his "fire and passion" made me want to hurl. I felt the same about Trot...loved his hustle but was constantly annoyed by his tantrums. It's equally annoying to see the same stunts by Youkilis and Pedroia. Hopefully this week's dust-up will resolve it.

#39 bsj


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Posted 07 June 2008 - 09:57 AM

I'm clearly in the minority here. As much as I hated the Yankees of the 90's, I actually kind of liked Paul O'Neill. I liked that he cared that much about every at bat. Never said a bad word to a teammate, but was ridiculously hard on himself.

If the bats were being thrown at people, or other people's shit was getting messed up, then teammates, including Manny, had every right to complain...but otherwise, I really don't think it should be anyone's business if he slams his helmet and curses aloud to himself.

Just my take...

Edited by bsj, 07 June 2008 - 09:58 AM.


#40 Omar's Wacky Neighbor

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 10:05 AM

No, because "Manny Being Manny" is usually funny and in the instances where he is a distraction, I would assume someone talks to him about it (Pedro/Millar/Ortiz/Tito/etc) and it probably takes care of it. And in the circumstances where he was a big distraction (demanding trades, late to spring training) it was something every ball player might go through and isnt an "easy fix".

If Youkilis is being a buzzkill every time the Sox are ahead or having a good time and still doesnt do anything to try to fix it after being talked to by the rest of the team, thats a problem far bigger than "Manny Being Manny".

Plus, there's a big difference between Manny's ADD and Youk's anger mis-management.

If any of the boys I coach get easily distracted, that's one thing and we try to get their heads back into the game. If they start pitching hissy fits and throwing gear around, then we take a slightly more different approach.........

#41 Carlos Cowart


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Posted 07 June 2008 - 10:10 AM

If you worked in an office with someone who had a habit throwing stuff around the room when he got pissed, it probably wouldn't happen too many times before you told him to knock it off. That's all this is.

this wasn't gator & hit dawg going at it over ethnically charged comments (if i recall that was the last time a scrum broke out in our own dugout and the reason why)...


Carl Everett got into it with either Cone or Saberhagen after the episode.

#42 drleather2001


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Posted 07 June 2008 - 10:17 AM

The bottom line is that it's not that difficult to go into the tunnel, or back into the locker room for 45 seconds to scream some "Fuck! Shit! Cocksucker!" and throw a glove against the wall, if that's really what you gotta do. I don't really have much of a problem with Youk's emotional reactions (although I'd prefer he learn to deal with his frustrations with a modicum of nobility), but the fact that he chooses to go ballistic in the dugout, in front of the fans and cameras, makes me suspect he might relish the "Crazy Hardass Ballplayer" reputation he's developing for himself. There's really no excuse for him not to isolate himself for those tantrums, especially if his teammates have voiced their displeasure with them.

#43 Old Fart Tree


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Posted 07 June 2008 - 12:57 PM

Shit like this reminds me of the Australian I played with in France. As the other team captain, he would yell at guys not to throw equipment after a K, and then two innings later, he'd fan and toss everything in the dugout amidst a hail of f-bombs. It was funny the first time, but it just totally destroyed the dugout atmosphere and undermined both of our credibility when trying to show the younger players how things were supposed to be done. It got real tiresome- if you're getting paid to do it, you should act like a professional, no matter what it is. Youks should damn well act like a professional.

#44 SoxScout


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Posted 07 June 2008 - 02:19 PM

http://blogs.courant...-team-meet.html

The media was uncharacteristically hustled out of the Red Sox clubhouse at 2:20 p.m. this afternoon, so the team could hold a pregame meeting. The topic was not revealed, but given the "flat" performance Friday night, per Terry Francona's description, it's likely the team was getting something of a pep-talk, putting all the craziness of the past three days behind them.

About an hour earlier in his daily pregame media chat, Francona downplayed the need for such meetings after the 8-0 loss to the Mariners Friday night.

"I don't think it's so much somebody has to have a meeting or say something," Francona said. "It's understood. You come in this morning and the music is on, coaches are floating around earlier maybe than normal. The policing ourselves part, I've always agreed with that, even to the point where they start to doing it with weapons and helmets. Whatever it takes.

"I think some of last night had to do with their pitcher. We could show all the emotion we want and come sliding back into the dugout, but we're still coming back to the dugout."



#45 someoneanywhere

  • 3056 posts

Posted 07 June 2008 - 06:12 PM

The bottom line is that it's not that difficult to go into the tunnel, or back into the locker room for 45 seconds to scream some "Fuck! Shit! Cocksucker!" and throw a glove against the wall, if that's really what you gotta do. I don't really have much of a problem with Youk's emotional reactions (although I'd prefer he learn to deal with his frustrations with a modicum of nobility), but the fact that he chooses to go ballistic in the dugout, in front of the fans and cameras, makes me suspect he might relish the "Crazy Hardass Ballplayer" reputation he's developing for himself. There's really no excuse for him not to isolate himself for those tantrums, especially if his teammates have voiced their displeasure with them.



This point and others like it have been brought up a few times in the thread, and I think there is a lot to it. But I also think athletes are wired differently for success. It may not be in this case that Youks gets like this because of the way he came up -- another excellent point made upthread -- but because the wiring in there functions in its own way. As an example (and sorta Sox -related): Mia Hamm could not play well unless she thought something was wrong with her, unless she could complain that she didn't feel well or was tired or had this jammed or that sprained. And once she had convinced herself that she had that to overcome, as well as the other team, she could and did turn it on. [That incidentally is one of the many interesting psychological and motivational tidbits in a book about Anson Dorrance called The Man Watching.

That is partially why something like this is not going to just go away, and why Youks is going to have a hard time controlling it. It may very well be that he has not just to complain, but to complain to someone, to a teammate, a compadre. Not that I condone throwing stuff and whining: only that it is very difficult to change the wrapping on the package.

#46 normstalls

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 09:27 PM

Maybe I am off base here - but it seemed like Youks gave Cora a couple dirty looks after his error today. The play was not Cora's fault at all in my opinion...
His quote after the game was a veiled shot at Cora too.

The last few days seem to be making Youks appear to be a bit more of a selfish player then I realized.

#47 Bowlerman9


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Posted 07 June 2008 - 09:38 PM

Maybe I am off base here - but it seemed like Youks gave Cora a couple dirty looks after his error today. The play was not Cora's fault at all in my opinion...
His quote after the game was a veiled shot at Cora too.

The last few days seem to be making Youks appear to be a bit more of a selfish player then I realized.


Keep this in mind: in the last 2 years, out of the 30+ players whose contracts the Sox renewed, only 1 of them wasnt mutually agreed upon: Youkilis's 2007 contract (he was arb eligible this season).

#48 Foulkey Reese


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Posted 07 June 2008 - 09:56 PM

Maybe I am off base here - but it seemed like Youks gave Cora a couple dirty looks after his error today. The play was not Cora's fault at all in my opinion...
His quote after the game was a veiled shot at Cora too.

The last few days seem to be making Youks appear to be a bit more of a selfish player then I realized.

What was his quote after the game that took a shot at Cora?

#49 normstalls

  • 1940 posts

Posted 07 June 2008 - 10:12 PM

"The ball was on me when I spun [to cover first], that was it," Youkilis said. "It's no big deal."


Like I said, maybe I am reading too much into it, but a simple 'I took my eye off the ball' woulda worked fine.

#50 TomRicardo


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Posted 07 June 2008 - 10:14 PM

I was reading replies to my previous post and about to thank them for making me reconsider my position (I hadn't read the entire article) when this very point dawned on me. I mean, Manny can have frequent mental lapses and just shrug it off with a shit-eating grin but "Youks being Youks" doesn't fly?

I can certainly see how that could get old too, but it does seem odd to single him out.


I think the line is where you start throwing shit in the dugout. If Youkilis threw on of his crybaby fits then actually hit Manny with something and hurt him, everyone would be calling Youkilis and his supporters saying "It's ok, I love seeing player that passionate" a moron. His behavior isn't acceptable in little league but in the end of the day his biggest crime is going into the dugout and throwing crap. In a game of concentration, why do you want a jerk running into a small enclosed space with his team and throwing a tantrum?

Want to be upset about the out? Go sit in the corner and talk to yourself like Kevin Garnett. Don't get into everyone's space like a two year old.

Edited by TomRicardo, 07 June 2008 - 10:16 PM.