159 replies to this topic

[RetractableRoof]

-- snip --
Then, on top of that, Coco admits after the game that Shields did it the right way when he threw at him. And he was right about that. Shields put one on his thigh and even looked like he took a tick off the heater when he did. He wasn't trying to hurt Coco, he was responding to Coco overreacting the night before. Coco was absolutely 100% wrong for then charging the mound. He should have taken his base and left it at that. At worst, try to steal off Shields to make him "pay" for putting you on. But charge the mound?
-- snip --

You aren't summarizing Coco correctly. *My* summary of what he said: Coco said that it was over when he went in hard to second base. Tit for tat (or tick for tack as he said it). He had responded to what he perceived as a breakage of the rule by Bartlett. What he then said was, IF Shields didn't believe it was over, and IF Shields felt the need to continue, then he had respect for Shields for having followed the code when hitting a batter by doing it waist down as opposed to headhunting. He never said Shield was right to throw at him. He viewed that as escalation, but respected Shields for the manner in which he did it. He also said that he had no issues with the catcher for protecting his pitcher. That was good baseball to him.

I have no problem with anyone disagreeing with his assessment, his approach, his attitude, his actions, or whatever. But don't misquote him or his thoughts and then use that as exhibit A to hang him.

Now, if I've misquoted or mis-summarized your words, I apologize in advance

[Pumpsie]

Baseball is a funny game...

Bartlett blocks the bag and pisses Coco off

Coco slides hard into Iwamura

Coco gets into a yelling match with Madden

Shields hits Coco

Coco charges Shields

Gomes, Crawford, Navarro beat Crisp down

Bartlett remains unharmed even though he started the entire thing

This pretty much sums it up. (I would add Coco's neat Muhammed Ali boxing move to evade the first punch. That was pretty neat. Coco's got skills.)

Bartlett started it with his little doofus move at the second base bag. But Coco should have targeted Bartlett for payback even if he had to wait a few games, weeks, months to do it. By getting back at Iwamura, it instantly became a team against team thing.

The Rays have a chip on their shoulders and have had for many years. I'm not sure where it comes from but they get into it with everyone; the Sox, Yanks, O's, you name it. Maybe it's the water down there or its their ownership and management setting that antagonistic tone but it's been there for a long time. Maybe it's because when they play the teams in their own division at home, they have more fans of those teams than their own in the stands and they're tired of that. They should concentrate on the game itself more.

But Coco's a little hothead, isn't he?

[Snodgrass'Muff]

Now, if I've misquoted or mis-summarized your words, I apologize in advance

You did. I said Coco admitted Shields did it the right way WHEN he threw at him. Not FOR throwing at him. And my problem with him the night before was in how he said what he said. His words could be read as "It's over and done with." But by talking about how Barlet needed to be a man and take his licking, he was provoking them further after the slide. Because of that, I don't think he really believed it was over after the slide. Hell, he was still provoking them after the game last night calling them little girls. Now, after the fight where Coco got thumped a bit, it might have had a small chance to die down... but Coco running his mouth probably ensured further retaliation in the next series between them. Or, at the very least, escalated the retaliation that was going to come anyway.

And 86, just because Coco creating a short bench didn't hurt the team last night in the end, that doesn't mean it wasn't stupid for Coco to start the series of events that led to that short bench. The two points are mutually exclusive. If you decide to blow a red light at a normally busy intersection and no car happens to be pulling through the intersection as you do, that doesn't mean it wasn't a dumb move on your part. It just means you were lucky.

Edited by Snodgrass'Muff, 06 June 2008 - 10:59 AM.

[someoneanywhere]

You're looking at this from the Rays' perspective only. The Red Sox may take issue with the behavior of Gomes and Crawford and choose to take another tooth come the end of the month. I'm not saying they should or that I want them to (I don't), but it is quite possible.

No, I'm looking at both sides. I may very well be wrong -- there may be more -- but what appears to all of us as incomprehensible is part of the code to them. That's why Coco was praising Shields afterward, for instance. Businessmen speaking business.

[Kremlin Watcher]

Another thing to consider: this is Maddon's way of making his boys grow up and he instigated it all. We have been kicking these guys around for a long time now, and the post-game comment to that effect tells me that, however stupid you think Coco was, there was going to be an argy-bargy pretty much no matter what. They were spoiling for a fight since Coco's slide.

Did you notice that an easy way to misspell Coco's last name is Crips?

[86spike]

And 86, just because Coco creating a short bench didn't hurt the team last night in the end, that doesn't mean it wasn't stupid for Coco to start the series of events that led to that short bench. The two points are mutually exclusive. If you decide to blow a red light at a normally busy intersection and no car happens to be pulling through the intersection as you do, that doesn't mean it wasn't a dumb move on your part. It just means you were lucky.

sorry man, but that's a ridiculous analogy.

in a 162 game season... sometimes things require a beat down. The Rays aren't allowed to act like punks (a lot of people are forgetting that Shields plunked Pedroia in the first too) and just walk out of our park thinking they're tough. The get a fat lip for that kind of attitude. And now the rest of the league knows that the 2008 Sox aren't going to let anyone punk them in their own house without some payback.

One of the downsides to this is that you shorten your team's bench because of the ejections and suspensions. But again, in a 162 game season, it is far more important to man up and show a team that you aren't taking their shit than to worry about the roster for 5 games.

Am I the only person on here who doesn't think MLB should be run like a little league squad?

[JimD]

Another thing to consider: this is Maddon's way of making his boys grow up and he instigated it all.

I'm not impressed with Maddon. Why not teach his boy to earn their opponent's respect by playing hard but fair and beating them? The whiny comments from Shields about tired of being picked on by the big boys strongly suggest that he's not the only one who feels that way in their clubhouse and that's a direct reflection on the manager.

[geoduck no quahog]

Maddon's the villain here. He's supposed to be an adult.

Maddon knew full well that what Bartlett did was bush, and so did Bartlett's teammates.

Fact of the matter is that Iwamura didn't get hurt, didn't retaliate...and it was Maddon who escalated the whole thing.

Again, the "adult" in the group is the one who acts like a kid, and he probably jacked the whole team up...hell, he probably instructed Shields to hit Crisp.

Now, these guys are mostly multi-millionaires who all beling to the same fraternity and probably hang out with each other more than we know. They don't necessarily want to injure a brother (or themselves). So Maddon should have just shut his yap (it wasn't going to be him getting hit by a pitch, or breaking his finger with a punch). A mature manager would have told Bartlett he was wrong, and instructed his team to stand down...that payback would come at a later date, if at all. Instead he starts jawing with Crisp.

Shields was so hyped up by hias manager that he throws at Pedroia in the 1st. I thought that would be it...you hit our 2nd baseman, we hit yours. Pedroia took it and went to 1st (and scored). Maddon should have ended it there. He's the friggen' boss.

Sorry, I don't buy the story about professional baseball players being children who need to be revved up by a motivational fight.

Maddon is the one who should be suspended. He knew what was going to happen and he had the ability to stop it ahead of time. Instead he fanned the flames.

Real tough guy having kids do his fighting for him.

[Snodgrass'Muff]

sorry man, but that's a ridiculous analogy.

in a 162 game season... sometimes things require a beat down. The Rays aren't allowed to act like punks (a lot of people are forgetting that Shields plunked Pedroia in the first too) and just walk out of our park thinking they're tough. The get a fat lip for that kind of attitude. And now the rest of the league knows that the 2008 Sox aren't going to let anyone punk them in their own house without some payback.

One of the downsides to this is that you shorten your team's bench because of the ejections and suspensions. But again, in a 162 game season, it is far more important to man up and show a team that you aren't taking their shit than to worry about the roster for 5 games.

Am I the only person on here who doesn't think MLB should be run like a little league squad?

I didn't see anything in that pitch that suggested it was intentional. As for your "the 2008 Sox aren't goign to let anyone punk them" comment, you sound like you belong on NYYFans.net with their "These are Giradi's Yankees now! No one is gonna mess with us and get away with it!" bullshit.

You want to respond to a team acting like punks, slap them down on the scoreboard.

[Lollardfish]

I didn't see anything in that pitch that suggested it was intentional. As for your "the 2008 Sox aren't goign to let anyone punk them" comment, you sound like you belong on NYYFans.net with their "These are Giradi's Yankees now! No one is gonna mess with us and get away with it!" bullshit.

You want to respond to a team acting like punks, slap them down on the scoreboard.

Right.

The better move would have been to send someone to the plate in the 8th holding a broom instead of a bat. Maybe Wally.

[86spike]

I didn't see anything in that pitch that suggested it was intentional. As for your "the 2008 Sox aren't goign to let anyone punk them" comment, you sound like you belong on NYYFans.net with their "These are Giradi's Yankees now! No one is gonna mess with us and get away with it!" bullshit.

You want to respond to a team acting like punks, slap them down on the scoreboard.

oh spare me! This has nothing to do with fanboyism. This is about baseball! Professional baseball!

Brawls happen. They are part of the game. Last night's brawl was exactly what should have happened given all the circumstances. It is a part of a long history in a game that is not for babies or gentlemen.

Sometimes you have to punch a guy in the face. Last night the Rays needed it and Coco delivered.

I continue to be shocked at the hand wringing going on here.

[WayneHousieHOF]

I agree with most of this. The problem I have with Madden and the 'incident' is the timing of it all. He couldn't wait. Had to do it at the next possible opportunity. And he also may have cost his team a game. I mean, grow up madden. And the other thing, all we keep hearing is that the Rays are sick and tired of being kicked around. Ok, fine, well the best way to put an end to that is to win some games. Sadly, the Rays are doing just that, but apparently that still isn't enough.

So because they've been (essentially) a perennial doormat/punching bag in the AL East since their inception, now they feel like they have free reign to go out and do whatever they want?

Maddon's the villain here. He's supposed to be an adult.

Maddon knew full well that what Bartlett did was bush, and so did Bartlett's teammates.

Fact of the matter is that Iwamura didn't get hurt, didn't retaliate...and it was Maddon who escalated the whole thing.

Again, the "adult" in the group is the one who acts like a kid, and he probably jacked the whole team up...hell, he probably instructed Shields to hit Crisp.

Now, these guys are mostly multi-millionaires who all beling to the same fraternity and probably hang out with each other more than we know. They don't necessarily want to injure a brother (or themselves). So Maddon should have just shut his yap (it wasn't going to be him getting hit by a pitch, or breaking his finger with a punch). A mature manager would have told Bartlett he was wrong, and instructed his team to stand down...that payback would come at a later date, if at all. Instead he starts jawing with Crisp.

Shields was so hyped up by hias manager that he throws at Pedroia in the 1st. I thought that would be it...you hit our 2nd baseman, we hit yours. Pedroia took it and went to 1st (and scored). Maddon should have ended it there. He's the friggen' boss.

Sorry, I don't buy the story about professional baseball players being children who need to be revved up by a motivational fight.

Maddon is the one who should be suspended. He knew what was going to happen and he had the ability to stop it ahead of time. Instead he fanned the flames.

Real tough guy having kids do his fighting for him.

[Snodgrass'Muff]

Sometimes you have to punch a guy in the face. Last night the Rays needed it and Coco delivered.

Had Shields thrown at Coco's head, I'd probably be more likely to agree with you. But he didn't. He tossed a soft fastball at his thigh.

And if you can't see the similarities between your stance here and their stance over there regarding Girardi, I don't know what else to say to you.

[86spike]

And if you can't see the similarities between your stance here and their stance over there regarding Girardi, I don't know what else to say to you.

The difference is that all that Girardi-will-make-us-tougher stuff is all just speculation and chest pounding with little-to-no factual basis. It is hot air.

What I am talking about is a actual event. Something that happened in real live life last night. My opinion of it is that there are times in MLB when the best thing to do is stand up and kick someone's ass. I am not advocating it happening all the time or advocating overreactions. I'm talking about last night. I don't think Coco overreacted or did the wrong thing. I don't think last night's brawl negatively affects the Sox in the least because anything bad that comes out of it (suspensions) will be outweighed but the positives of standing up and smacking the competition down. Again - this isn't croquet.

Your name-calling of me is offbase.

[Ananti]

So Maddon is an adult and Coco is a "kid"?

Maddon did escalate, but so did Coco.

[Snodgrass'Muff]

The difference is that all that Girardi-will-make-us-tougher stuff is all just speculation and chest pounding with little-to-no factual basis. It is hot air.

What I am talking about is a actual event. Something that happened in real live life last night. My opinion of it is that there are times in MLB when the best thing to do is stand up and kick someone's ass. I am not advocating it happening all the time or advocating overreactions. I'm talking about last night. I don't think Coco overreacted or did the wrong thing. I don't think last night's brawl negatively affects the Sox in the least because anything bad that comes out of it (suspensions) will be outweighed but the positives of standing up and smacking the competition down. Again - this isn't croquet.

Your name-calling of me is offbase.

Name calling? I made a comparison. And it's apt. You sound like they do when a Yankees pitcher throws at someone or Shelly Duncan slid spikes up. There's a difference between calling you names and pointing out similar behavior to another group of people. If you want to take that personally, that's your choice. But it was not meant as a personal attack.

And what you're doing isn't just similar to what they said when Girardi was hired, it's what's repeated over there every time an incident happens. Tell me, what gets accomplished by starting a brawl here? A brawl that the Sox didn't "win" by any stretch of the imagination. Coco got thumped. Most of the Sox players stood around, some pulled a few guys off, one... maybe two besides Coco threw a punch or two. If anyone got their asses kicked, it was Coco.

So what, exactly, are you getting all rah-rah about? If you want to smack a team down, pound them into the dirt on the scoreboard. You know what's going to hurt the Rays the most as the season wears on? The fact that they're going to suffer more games in suspensions than our guys because more of their guys were thinking like you. That, and we took 3 games in the standings from this this week.

Coco's throwing a punch really won't matter in the long run.

[dcmissle]

The problem between these two teams, needlessly exacerbated by Coco, long antedates the Rays being any version of good. It goes back at least a half dozen years to Hal McRae.

I'd jump very harshly on this to send the appropriate message before somebody gets hurt really badly. One can only imagine what the NYYfanboy disciplinarian will do.

[Pandemonium67]

I continue to be shocked at the hand wringing going on here.

Man, me too. I would've guessed this board would be 80-20 in favor of Coco's actions, but I got it backward.

Frankly, I think just about everyone played it OK here. I support Coco for his hard slide, Maddon for trying to light a fire under his team (which was about to swept out of first place), Shields for hitting Coco below the waist (though also hitting Pedroia makes hitting Coco shaky), Coco for going after Shields, and Navarro for tackling him.

I don't like what Bartlett did, and I don't like Gomes and whoever for ganging up on a guy on the ground. It's their actions that might make this problem carry over.

Both teams might benefit from the extra fire this gives them. I think Tampa Bay has to feel good about themselves for fighting back, and I think people come away with a new respect for Coco. I sure do.

I just hope l'affaire Manny-Youks was unrelated to the brawl and is over and forgotten about anyway.

[geoduck no quahog]

So Maddon is an adult and Coco is a "kid"?

Maddon did escalate, but so did Coco.

It's more like Maddon is the boss. Coco and Gomes and Shields are in a different category.

[86spike]

So what, exactly, are you getting all rah-rah about? If you want to smack a team down, pound them into the dirt on the scoreboard.

yeah - uh - the Sox did pound them into the dirt on the scoreboard as well as stand up to their punk behavior.

And it's not about who physically won the brawl (and the fact that Coco took the worst of it is fine since he was the main aggressor - I think he's fine with taking his shots too)... it's about the psychology of being tough and being fearless... especially in your home with a rival in the house.

You need to feel tough and strong, fearless and unbeatable to win as a pro athlete. Last night was just one of those moments when you have to get dirty to keep that feeling alive and strong.

Again - pro baseball is not for gentlemen. They should stick to patty-cake with the girls.

[The_Powa_of_Seiji_Ozawa]

I just hope l'affaire Manny-Youks was unrelated to the brawl and is over and forgotten about anyway.

At the end of the game I think I saw Manny and Youkilis congratulate each other. They looked ok to me.

[Rudy Pemberton]

The thing that bothers me the most is that Coco reacted this way a day after all this shit went down. He had to figure he was going to get plunked, yet he still selfishly stormed the field and is going to cost himself a bunch of games and hurt his team. It's not like it happened the same kind when he could presumably still be fired up.

It's stupid that the Rays got involved as well. Shields gave himself up after an inning and hurt his team short and long term as well. Maybe he figured Coco wouldn't charge the mound, but whatever. The whole thing was amusing and fun to watch, but pretty counterproductive to both team's goals. Oh well, I guess.

In hindsight, Tito probably should have given Coco yesterday off and let him calm down a bit.

[Snodgrass'Muff]

yeah - uh - the Sox did pound them into the dirt on the scoreboard as well as stand up to their punk behavior.

And it's not about who physically won the brawl (and the fact that Coco took the worst of it is fine since he was the main aggressor - I think he's fine with taking his shots too)... it's about the psychology of being tough and being fearless... especially in your home with a rival in the house.

You need to feel tough and strong, fearless and unbeatable to win as a pro athlete. Last night was just one of those moments when you have to get dirty to keep that feeling alive and strong.

Again - pro baseball is not for gentlemen. They should stick to patty-cake with the girls.

I still fail to see what you can accomplish by charging a mound then getting smacked around that you can't accomplish by winning said game 7-1... or sweeping the team acting up... or taking back 1st place (or adding to the lead you too back the previous night as the case may be). Do you really think that if Coco had simply trotted down to first base the Rays might have come back and won the game? Or carried over their "moral toughness" victory over to the next series and beaten us because of it?

Or are you willing to argue that the attitude you're sharing with guys like Gomes and Crawford isn't going to hurt the Rays more than help them this season? They're going to serve suspensions weakening their club because they felt the need to man up and punch someone in the mouth to show them how tough they were. To show them they won't back down. So not only did they lose the game, but they may lose several more due to the suspensions.

What was gained on their end? They weren't thinking any differently than you are right now. What makes you right and them wrong?

[opes]

The thing that bothers me the most is that Coco reacted this way a day after all this shit went down. He had to figure he was going to get plunked, yet he still selfishly stormed the field and is going to cost himself a bunch of games and hurt his team. It's not like it happened the same kind when he could presumably still be fired up.

It's stupid that the Rays got involved as well. Shields gave himself up after an inning and hurt his team short and long term as well. Maybe he figured Coco wouldn't charge the mound, but whatever. The whole thing was amusing and fun to watch, but pretty counterproductive to both team's goals. Oh well, I guess.

In hindsight, Tito probably should have given Coco yesterday off and let him calm down a bit.

If we could go back, and avoid the incident, sure we'd all be shiny happy people.
But given the way it played out, I think its all justified and everyone got what was coming to them, except for Bartlett. FWIW, I dont think he was terribly in the wrong to begin with. Coco charges the mood, and fully knows hes going to get about 3 shots in at most on Shields before he's beat down.
He knew that and accepted it. What he did was not the act of a moron, it was the act of a guy standing up for himself.
Point is, fighting in baseball as always been a part of the game, and always will. Nobody here should be passing judgement on a professional baseball player, and his decision to charge the mound. Thats his call.


Grow a pair people, jesus.

[geoduck no quahog]

The stupidist thing is - I swear Gomes injured his hand on Coco's face. Watch the replays...after the fight he's kind of holding it gingerly and looking at his right hand as it swells up.

Coco doesn't hold a bat with his face. Point - Coco.

[Zupcic Fan]

I don't really have any feelings about the argument you are having---but just a quick question. I saw a replay of all the events, and I don't understand why what Bartlett originally did was considered such a big deal. Is it considered taboo to block the base like that? Catchers do it all the time. did I miss something----I didn't see him do anything with his spikes. And then I didn't understand why Coco's response was to then take out anyone other than Bartlett when he was stealing the base.
I have nothing against fights in baseball particularly, but it seemed to me that in this one Coco was awfully babyish. If Bartlett did that and Coco went in feet first, it looked as though Bartlett would have been putting himself in more danger than Coco.

Edited by Zupcic Fan, 06 June 2008 - 01:03 PM.

[BCsMightyJoeYoung]

I don't really have any feelings about the argument you are having---but just a quick question. I saw a replay of all the events, and I don't understand why what Bartlett originally did was considered such a big deal. Is it considered taboo to block the base like that? Catchers do it all the time. did I miss something----I didn't see him do anything with his spikes. And then I didn't understand why Coco's response was to then take out anyone other than Bartlett when he was stealing the base.
I have nothing against fights in baseball particularly, but it seemed to me that in this one Coco was awfully babyish. If Bartlett did that and Coco went in feet first, it looked as though Bartlett would have been putting himself in more danger than Coco.

Remy pointed out, at the beginning of the game, that it is a "sort of" acceptable behaviour on pickoff plays - but not on steals. The point is that it's very easy for the runner to get hurt if he slides head first - which was exactly what happened to Coco. And if he slides feet first then it's highly likely the infielder is going to get a knee full of spikes.

IMO, it's a pretty bush league play - but it does happen occasionally - I think I've seen both Cora and Lowell do it.

[edit: concerning the point about catchers - baserunners are allowed to run over catchers when they block the plate - and catchers are wearing lots of equpment. Middle infielders are helpless]

Edited by BCsMightyJoeYoung, 06 June 2008 - 01:11 PM.

[TomRicardo]

The thing that bothers me the most is that Coco reacted this way a day after all this shit went down. He had to figure he was going to get plunked, yet he still selfishly stormed the field and is going to cost himself a bunch of games and hurt his team. It's not like it happened the same kind when he could presumably still be fired up.

I mean as stupid as it was, it really didn't hurt the Sox. Coco missing some games in July isn't a huge deal and Tampa Bay, their main divisional competitor, is really going to get screwed. I mean, Tampa Bay is the one who is going to lose its top of the rotation starter for at least one start as well two of their starting outfielders. Shields is an idiot. Why the hell is he throwing a haymakers with his pitching hand? Shields is lucky Coco dodged that punch, if it had connected Shields may have been on a trip to the DL.

[BoSox24]

Remy pointed out, at the beginning of the game, that it is a "sort of" acceptable behaviour on pickoff plays - but not on steals. The point is that it's very easy for the runner to get hurt if he slides head first - which was exactly what happened to Coco. And if he slides feet first then it's highly likely the infielder is going to get a knee full of spikes.

IMO, it's a pretty bush league play - but it does happen occasionally - I think I've seen both Cora and Lowell do it.

I think Crisp's hard feet first slide was supposed to say to them....meaning, fine...block the bag but I am coming in hard and if you are there prepared to get punctured.

I have no problem with Crisp's actions at all actually. Sometimes emotions run high....Bartlett started the whole thing and Crisp escalated it. Big deal...it makes for a more heated rivalry. I would rather our guys take a stance like this than turn the other cheek.

[E5 Yaz]

When Coco's suspension starts, and the 24-man roster has to be adjusted to compensate, there will be at least one game where they will be a player or pitcher short and it will bite them in the ass. At that point, apparently we should all applaud Coco for being a man. Yippee.

Brawls are not part of baseball. They're part of hockey. Baseball fights are usually caused by someone, in this case Coco, acting in a moronic fashion. To name-call people for being opposed to brawls in baseball shows a clear lack of understanding of the game.

The "hard slide" argument is weak. A hard slide is used to break up a double play, not in a stolen base attempt. Going for the fielder instead of the base was bush league on Coco's part, regardless of how he felt he was victimized earlier.

[E5 Yaz]

Grow a pair people, jesus.

It takes more balls to know when starting a fight is the wrong thing to do.

One final point: Umpires now will be instructed to more closely follow Red Sox/Rays games for the rest of the season. Depending on the ability of the home plate ump, this could come back to haunt Sox pitchers who might want to brush someone back. But, hey, Coco stood up for himself, so it's all good.

[86spike]

gotta disagree with you E5.

Brawling in baseball is a part of the game. It always has been and always will be.

Last night's brawl needed to happen as soon as Shields plunked his second batter. The fallout and downside will be there at some point... but the upside of manning up will last a lot longer.

[ObstructedView]

I just don’t understand the whole “I like the way we responded to this bench-clearing brawl” line. This isn’t hockey or football. Baseball is a game of execution, and I just don’t see how something like this is going to translate into better execution for the Rays. So now they can feel warm and fuzzy for a few days about how they have each other’s backs and won’t back down from the big bad kids on the block. How’s that going to result in more runs or quality pitching? We hear this crap all the time, and for the most part people just seem to accept it. The Tek-ARod fight has been enshrined into the mythology of 2004, but most conveniently forget that the Sox continued to be mediocre for a significant stretch after that brawl. It wasn’t until after The Trade that they caught fire.

[Kevin Youkulele]

I mean, Tampa Bay is the one who is going to lose its top of the rotation starter for at least one start

No. If Shields gets suspended for five games, they can appeal to stay the suspension, then drop it the day after he pitches when there's an off day coming up. Then he switches rotation spots with the guy after him. His start gets pushed back one day, BFD.

Instead of Shields-2-3-off-4-5-Shields-2..., it's Shields-2-3-off-4-5-2-Shields.... All they need is a start for Shields with an off day 2-5 days later, or a starter who's willing to pitch on short rest once.

[OCD SS]

Although Tampa is looking at a few games of an extremely shorthanded line up depending on the length of Gomes', Crawford's, and maybe even Iwamura's, possible suspensions.

[Chico Walker and the Man]

These problems result from the fact that all of these interpretations are rooted in conventions, not rules.

I'm sure the rulebook indicates that fielders cannot hinder a players path to the base. This includes the catcher. Now, it is done. But when is it acceptable? Different people are going to have different answers. And what is an appropriate response?

My feeling is that Coco isn't nearly as angry if he is hitting .320, and I don't think Madden is nearly as pissed if his team isn't in the process of falling from first place. So the argument isn't based upon genuine concerns about the other team's play, so much as it is about frustration.

But clearing up the rulebook wouldn't hurt.

[E5 Yaz]

gotta disagree with you E5.

Brawling in baseball is a part of the game. It always has been and always will be.

Last night's brawl needed to happen as soon as Shields plunked his second batter. The fallout and downside will be there at some point... but the upside of manning up will last a lot longer.

See, I don't get the "upside of manning up" part at all. The Red Sox are the WS champions; they're about as "manned up" as you can get. If a young punk picks a fight with the leader of the pack, the leader picks his spot and takes him out. You don't react immediately, you wait until it matters to the punk. For instance, sweep them in September when they're fighting for a playoff spot or a .500 record.

I see very little gain in what Coco did.

[OttoC]

[edit: concerning the point about catchers - baserunners are allowed to run over catchers when they block the plate - and catchers are wearing lots of equpment. Middle infielders are helpless]

Regarding catchers blocking the plate: it is basically overlooked or interpreted very loosely, but the catcher is not permitted to block the plate unless he has the ball or is in the act of fielding it.

[Snodgrass'Muff]

Last night's brawl needed to happen as soon as Shields plunked his second batter. The fallout and downside will be there at some point... but the upside of manning up will last a lot longer.

You keep pointing to this as the positive that will outweigh the suspension(s) and injury to Ellsbury that was indirectly a result of Coco getting tossed. Nevermind the points E5 has brought up about how umps will react in future games or future retaliation by either team. So perhaps you can get specific with regards to the benefits of standing up and fighting last night? Because at this point what you're talking about sounds an awful lot like intangible benefit. And if we can't measure the benefit, how can we compare its value to something tangible like games missed due to a suspension, or less leeway from the umpires in future games?

[soxfaninyankeeland]

Crisp's over-the-top reactions to both the Bartlett tag play and the Shields HBP made me wonder if Melvin Mora blocked the bag in similar fashion in this game. The resulting injury caused Coco to miss 7 weeks. More importantly, if you drew a line dividing Crisp's career between his being an above average offensive player with potential to be even better and a below average offensive player, you'd draw it straight through that game. I tried to find video of the play but couldn't.

[The Flying Dutchman]

Crisp's over-the-top reactions to both the Bartlett tag play and the Shields HBP made me wonder if Melvin Mora blocked the bag in similar fashion in this game. The resulting injury caused Coco to miss 7 weeks. More importantly, if you drew a line dividing Crisp's career between his being an above average offensive player with potential to be even better and a below average offensive player, you'd draw it straight through that game. I tried to find video of the play but couldn't.

Coco broke the finger on the bag. But with the extent of the injury and how seemingly it affected his career, you cant blame him for being upset when someone might be facilitating another occurance of the same injury.

[Ananti]

This is no tangible benefit, except the "I feel better about being the fan of a team that 'manned up'".

Which should not totally be ignored, as I've tried to explain to some stat-obsessed people, being a fan is all about emotions. In the end, the only thing a sports team really offers to the fan is making them feel better about being associated with the team, even winning games , when you boil it down, is just a means to get to that objective.

So if getting in to a fight accomplished that for some fans, then it was arguably worth it.

[TomRicardo]

No. If Shields gets suspended for five games, they can appeal to stay the suspension, then drop it the day after he pitches when there's an off day coming up. Then he switches rotation spots with the guy after him. His start gets pushed back one day, BFD.

Instead of Shields-2-3-off-4-5-Shields-2..., it's Shields-2-3-off-4-5-2-Shields.... All they need is a start for Shields with an off day 2-5 days later, or a starter who's willing to pitch on short rest once.

Thats a big if there cowboy. He will probably be suspended for six for the very reason hence he will miss a start.

[Myt1]

One final point: Umpires now will be instructed to more closely follow Red Sox/Rays games for the rest of the season. Depending on the ability of the home plate ump, this could come back to haunt Sox pitchers who might want to brush someone back. But, hey, Coco stood up for himself, so it's all good.

Or, depending on the ability of the home plate ump, this could come back to haunt Rays pitchers.

Of course I don't think there will be much of an issue. I think the umps can handle this just fine, especially given that nothing happened on Lester's non-intentional HBPs (in the very same game) last night. But even if there is an issue, there's no reason why it would be more likely to affect the Sox adversely.

I think people are grasping at straws to give the illusion of non-NYYFans objectivity. Coco's slide should have ended things. Tit for tat, no injuries. Maddon ratcheted things up. It's his fault this kept going. If he had a problem with the play he could have complained to the umps.

EDIT: And blaming Coco for the injury to Ellsbury is just logically indefensible. It's not like Ellsbury's injury was caused by a turn behind the plate as the emergency catcher because Varitek, Cash, and Pedroia decided to mug the third baseman. Ellsbury is quite familiar with playing center. He was injured giving maximum effort on a play that he's familiar with. It's just as logically defensible to claim that Coco actually saved Ellsbury from a career ending ACL injury that would have occured in left.

Edited by Myt1, 06 June 2008 - 03:52 PM.

[86spike]

say it with me now:

there is more to baseball than statistics
there is more to baseball than statistics
there is more to baseball than statistics
there is more to baseball than statistics
there is more to baseball than statistics

Standing up for yourself and your team is part of teamwork, gamesmanship, compettetive drive and yes, keeping the testosterone/adrenalyne running. You need all that shit to be a great team. When you are presented with a challenger who doesn't respect you... the thing to do is make them respect you.

I'd bet you a year's salary that Coco thinks any punishment he gets is worth it. If he thinks that and his teammates agree... then it's worth it, plain and simple.

[Fenway Frank]

Suspensions (per Mike Lynch Ch. 5)

Coco 7 games

Lester 5 games

Casey 3 games

No word on Tampa suspensions

[opes]

Suspensions (per Mike Lynch Ch. 5)

Coco 7 games

Lester 5 games

Casey 3 games

No word on Tampa suspensions

Lester 5 games? Are you fucking kidding me?

[NomarRS05]

Suspensions (per Mike Lynch Ch. 5)

Coco 7 games

Lester 5 games

Casey 3 games

No word on Tampa suspensions

Lester? That's pretty outrageous if true. Is that for his inside pitch to Cliff Floyd late in the start? Not sure I understand.

[Yaz4Ever]

Lester? That's pretty outrageous if true. Is that for his inside pitch to Cliff Floyd late in the start? Not sure I understand.

That pitch HARDLY warrants such a suspension. I can't believe he's being suspended. I'll wait until more comes out.

[Snodgrass'Muff]

Edit: Nevermind.

Edited by Snodgrass'Muff, 06 June 2008 - 05:25 PM.