167 replies to this topic

[Hawk'sGoodKnees]

Is this true? I always thought a fake throw to first was illegal under any circumstances, and I have not been able to find a rule that says otherwise. I'm pretty sure that a fake throw to first, whether the base is occupied or not, and regardless of whether the pitcher then throws to another base, is always a balk.

Rule 8.05 (b)

The pitcher, while touching his plate, feints a throw to first base and fails to complete the throw;

You're right, it's a balk. The third-to-first move is covered under ( c )

( c ) The pitcher, while touching his plate, fails to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base;
Rule 8.05( c ) Comment: Requires the pitcher, while touching his plate, to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base. If a pitcher turns or spins off of his free foot without actually stepping or if he turns his body and throws before stepping, it is a balk.
A pitcher is to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base but does not require him to throw (except to first base only) because he steps. It is possible, with runners on first and third, for the pitcher to step toward third and not throw, merely to bluff the runner back to third; then seeing the runner on first start for second, turn and step toward and throw to first base. This is legal. However, if, with runners on first and third, the pitcher, while in contact with the rubber, steps toward third and then immediately and in practically the same motion "wheels" and throws to first base, it is obviously an attempt to deceive the runner at first base, and in such a move it is practically impossible to step directly toward first base before the throw to first base, and such a move shall be called a balk. Of course, if the pitcher steps off the rubber and then makes such a move, it is not a balk.

Righty or lefty, you can't fake a throw to first without first stepping off the back of the rubber.

[leftfieldlegacy]

As for the fielder in fould territory...I've never seen a balk issued because of this. However, according to the rule you posted, I'd say the correct call was made.
The bolded part seems to clear it up as much as possible.

Jerry Remy once mentioned, during a broadcast, that he was called for a balk during his playing days. I couldn't remember the specifics of the play that he described but I found this with a Google search. Not sure about the source but it sounds accurate.

In a game in Detroit on May 1, 1984 with the Tigers leading the Red Sox, 4-2, in the bottom of the fourth inning, there was an appeal play at first base.
The Tiger leadoff hitter Marty Castillo was on second base with a double, but the Red Sox claimed he missed first base heading for second
Before pitcher Bruce Hurst threw the ball to first base an the appeal play, Remy ran over into foul territory behind first base to back up the throw by Hurst to Mike Easler.
First base umpire Rocky Roe denied the appeal and called a balk, caused by Remy's action. The balk was charged to Hurst.
Remy violated Rule 4.03 which states: "When the ball is put in play at the start of or during a game, all fielders other than the catcher shall be in fair territory."

[Rice4HOF]

Retrosheet confirms this same event, but ends by stating
"Rule 4.03 discusses fielders in foul ground, but does not specifically address this situation or the awarding of a balk", leaving the interpretation of this rule in doubt.

[Sooner Steve]

here's one for ya...file this under 'you don't want to do this'...last week @ my seventeen year old's game blue was having trouble w/the strike zone - as in he was maddeningly inconsistent...as the game goes along and the inconsistency gets worse he begins to hear it from our side - no belligerent mind you - but enough to let him know that he's being noticed...to which he begins to respond to our side verball (something you don't do as an umpire) and then he commits one of the dumbest things i've seen a blue do in all my years and to which i have never done - he goes into his crouch and as he does he raises his right hand in the form of a fist to his right temple and makes a motion like you would on the playground in primary school if you were calling someone a crybaby!

unfortunately for him i know his district uic

what a maroon...

HANTA YO

[Mr. Baseball]

here's one for ya...file this under 'you don't want to do this'...last week @ my seventeen year old's game blue was having trouble w/the strike zone - as in he was maddeningly inconsistent...as the game goes along and the inconsistency gets worse he begins to hear it from our side - no belligerent mind you - but enough to let him know that he's being noticed...to which he begins to respond to our side verball (something you don't do as an umpire) and then he commits one of the dumbest things i've seen a blue do in all my years and to which i have never done - he goes into his crouch and as he does he raises his right hand in the form of a fist to his right temple and makes a motion like you would on the playground in primary school if you were calling someone a crybaby!

unfortunately for him i know his district uic

what a maroon...

HANTA YO

What was he saying back to you verbally? I'm a HS umpire in CT and have found that a quick but forceful, "that's enough coach" in the coach's direction often does the job when a coach/team is bitching about balls ands strikes. Apparently it was more than this?

[tonyandpals]

15 YO District Tournament game. Runners on first and second with two outs. Groundball to 2b. Second baseman puts a charge on it, stops, sets his feet, runner from first stops in front of him and just before the ball hits him, he jumps away. Ball goes through the second baseman's legs, runner scores from 2nd, batter reaches.

I wait for the play to resolve, calmly ask for time and ask the home plate umpire to check with the field umpire to see if the runner interfered with the batted ball, intentionally interfering/deceiving the infielder.

Sure enough, the batter was ruled out. Out of the inning unscathed.

edit: The other manager informed the umpire that he was now playing the game under protest. The umpire wished him luck with the protest as he has no grounds for protest on a judgment call.

Edited by tonyandpals, 02 July 2008 - 01:31 PM.

[Sooner Steve]

What was he saying back to you verbally? I'm a HS umpire in CT and have found that a quick but forceful, "that's enough coach" in the coach's direction often does the job when a coach/team is bitching about balls ands strikes. Apparently it was more than this?

i couldn't hear what he was saying - and it wasn't to me or the coach - it was to another fan - a dad who's a bit of a loudmouthed prick - that being said he wasn't being particularly loudmouthed or prickish to that point...

as a veteran umpire i do know that you don't ever acknowedge the crowd - no matter what...you can respond to the coach if you feel it crosses the line of acceptable/tolerable - but never the fans - the only time you ever acknowledge them is if they are going after the opposing players - i've only had to do that once

HANTA YO

[Fred not Lynn]

Not an umpire issue, but a general rules gripe;

Little League District Tournament, early going my sons team loses a 2-1 game - but the opposing team fails to get an at-bat for one of thier players as per mandatory play rules. We make note of this at the end of the game, and the opposing coach says, "Yeah, I had him on deck - guess I'm gonna miss the next game".

Seems that after the fiasco in New England two years ago, failure to meet mandatory play requirements no longer results in a forfiet. Now it's a two game suspension for a coach, but really nothing of a real competitive punitive nature...almost like giving each team a "freebie" on this matter.

The actual rule says that the tournament committee could give a bigger penalty for multiple offenses, or if the coach "willfully and knowingly" failed to get the kid an at-batbut you'd have to really press that, I think. (I'm pretty sure the other guy knew EXACTLY what he was doing). For future reference, I would be sure to point out to an opposing coach BEFORE the final inning that he's at risk of violating mandatory play, then you won't get the "Oh, I didn't know" defense...

In the end, for us it was a freebie game (we're going to be in the same place for the elimination portion of the tournament anyway. In fact, having taken that loss my even end up working to our benefit) so it's not a big deal other than the ethics of it...

Thoughts and comments? There was some discussion on this subject two summers ago at the time of the New England incident - but I don't at all like the rule changes that came from it....the rule changes all are aimed at avoiding "travesty of the game" stuff, and really weakens the "mandatory play" regulation.

I might also mention, that for some reason, that team had 13 players...and sure, it's harder to sub in when you have 4 guys sitting - but it was their choice to carry a large roster (we only have 11).

Edited by Fred not Lynn, 08 July 2008 - 02:46 PM.

[leftfieldlegacy]

Not an umpire issue, but a general rules gripe;
Little League District Tournament, early going my sons team loses a 2-1 game - but the opposing team fails to get an at-bat for one of thier players as per mandatory play rules.

Thoughts and comments? There was some discussion on this subject two summers ago at the time of the New England incident - but I don't at all like the rule changes that came from it....the rule changes all are aimed at avoiding "travesty of the game" stuff, and really weakens the "mandatory play" regulation.

I might also mention, that for some reason, that team had 13 players...and sure, it's harder to sub in when you have 4 guys sitting - but it was their choice to carry a large roster (we only have 11).

My son is also participating in the district tournament.
My initial reaction to the rules changes was the same as yours. But after re-reading the rules of play, I have a slightly different opinion.

First it is clear that LL is trying to encourage teams in the younger divisions to carry more players.

9-10 Year Old Division & 10-11 Year Old Division: The objective of the 9-10 Year Old Division & 10-11 Year Old Division Tournament is to provide nine and ten year old players, and ten and eleven year old players, the opportunity to participate in a baseball tournament at the District, Sectional, and State levels at the conclusion of the regular season. Leagues are strongly encouraged to place the maximum number of players (14) on the Tournament Affidavit, thereby giving more children the opportunity to participate.

For teams that do this and have difficulty getting all the subs into the game, LL is going to extend a little grace and not demand a forfeit. But at the same time, they make it clear in the rules that any coach who does this more than once will be subject to more severe penalties.

Additional penalties (up to and including forfeiture of a game and/or disqualification of the team, managers or coaches from further tournament participation) may be imposed if, in the opinion of the Tournament Committee:
2. a team fails to meet the requirements of this rule more than once during the International Tournament, which begins with District play and ends at the World Series level (State level for 9-10 and 10-11)

Granted the “additional penalties” are not automatic, but I think that LL would come down hard on a second time offender.

Also, your point about the opposing team carrying 13 players is interesting because adding that 13th player to the roster allows a third coach to be on the bench. (helpful when the manager gets suspended).

[Fred not Lynn]

First it is clear that LL is trying to encourage teams in the younger divisions to carry more players.

On the surface, this seems a noble move - but in reality it's a shallow gift. You carry more players, you need to sit more players. With 14 kids, 8 of them won't get a full game in each game - and with 6 inning games that means one or two at bats at the most. I think that winds up putting a lot of players in the "not much baseball" club...and makes it hardly worth being on the team.

Better if LL were to encourage a tiered system where any player who wanted to play post-reg season would be assigned to a team of maybe 10 or 11 and actually play full games for the most part. Better still if the goal is to get more kids playing more basball would be to implement a system that while moving qualifying teams towards Williamsport, also keeps all the eliminated teams playing at least through to the end of July.

[leftfieldlegacy]

Better still if the goal is to get more kids playing more basball would be to implement a system that while moving qualifying teams towards Williamsport, also keeps all the eliminated teams playing at least through to the end of July.

I think LL accomplished this in April by changing the rule about kids not participating in other leagues during tournament season.

Participation in Other Programs - The rule that prohibits players from participating in non-Little League programs (dual participation), once Little League tournament play has begun, has been rescinded at all levels of play for baseball and softball.

Now towns can enter teams in the LL tournament as well as local private leagues so the kids can play a lot of baseball through late July even if they get eliminated from the LL tournament early.

[Fred not Lynn]

I think LL accomplished this in April by changing the rule about kids not participating in other leagues during tournament season.

Now towns can enter teams in the LL tournament as well as local private leagues so the kids can play a lot of baseball through late July even if they get eliminated from the LL tournament early.

Only helps if someone in your town actually organizes another program....if LL wants to be inclusive, changing rules allowing participation in other programs is far less effective than simply providing more inclusive programming themselves.

Still, I like this particular change of attitude on the part of LL - although I was very curious as to the back-story as to why it came, and why it came when it did. Anyone know the story behind this? While I'd like to think it was a benovolent decision in the interest of bettering the game, my cynical side is inclined to think there was some legal wrangling taking place on the issue and the rule change was preceded by some lawyerly advice.

[WinRemmerswaal]

Here's one for those who umpire:

My son's 12 year old team had a game this week, grounder with funny spin down the first base line, ended up fair, ump pointed it fair, the hitter and runner both slowed up to try to see what the ump was signalling and did not take extra bases - i.e. ended up single when it could have been a double. Between innings one of the coaches was giving the ump a hard time about not yelling out the call and the ump said he yells fouls and points fair. Is there a rule/guideline about that?

[franklgl]

I'm not sure about a written guideline for that, but I have seen the exact same situation in the past and have been given the exact same explanation. My understanding is that it is just how umpires are trained, not necessarily a rule.

[Mr. Baseball]

Here's one for those who umpire:

My son's 12 year old team had a game this week, grounder with funny spin down the first base line, ended up fair, ump pointed it fair, the hitter and runner both slowed up to try to see what the ump was signalling and did not take extra bases - i.e. ended up single when it could have been a double. Between innings one of the coaches was giving the ump a hard time about not yelling out the call and the ump said he yells fouls and points fair. Is there a rule/guideline about that?

Ump was right, absolutely did it by the book. A loudly vocalized "foul!", usually accompanied by hands raised straight up then a point to foul territory if the ball is foul, a simple point towards the field, and no vocalized call, if its a fair ball.

[leftfieldlegacy]

Here's one for those who umpire:

My son's 12 year old team had a game this week, grounder with funny spin down the first base line, ended up fair, ump pointed it fair, the hitter and runner both slowed up to try to see what the ump was signalling and did not take extra bases - i.e. ended up single when it could have been a double. Between innings one of the coaches was giving the ump a hard time about not yelling out the call and the ump said he yells fouls and points fair. Is there a rule/guideline about that?

The umpire is correct and the players at fault in this scenario. Yelling "foul" and silently pointing "fair" are designed to avoid confusion. Players who cannot see the play in front of them can depend on the verbal call to know the ball is foul. If they hear nothing they play on. If an umpire yelled for fair as well as foul, the players, who are caught up in the excitement of the play, might not be able to distinguish between the two loudly shouted words.

[WinRemmerswaal]

The umpire is correct and the players at fault in this scenario. Yelling "foul" and silently pointing "fair" are designed to avoid confusion. Players who cannot see the play in front of them can depend on the verbal call to know the ball is foul. If they hear nothing they play on. If an umpire yelled for fair as well as foul, the players, who are caught up in the excitement of the play, might not be able to distinguish between the two loudly shouted words.

That was basically the ump's reply, which sounded logical enough to me.

The other interesting ruling I saw this year was on a play when a kid squared to bunt and then pulled back to swing. He missed the ball, but there was a long discussion afterwards about whether the kid should be out. As I understood it, there's a rule against doing that due to safety, but I was not sure if that's a real little league rule or one local to this town. Seems like a good idea since the team in the field was well coached and when the kid showed bunt the corner IFs were charging hard and could definitely have gotten hurt on a well-struck ball off an aluminum bat.

[Mr. Baseball]

That was basically the ump's reply, which sounded logical enough to me.

The other interesting ruling I saw this year was on a play when a kid squared to bunt and then pulled back to swing. He missed the ball, but there was a long discussion afterwards about whether the kid should be out. As I understood it, there's a rule against doing that due to safety, but I was not sure if that's a real little league rule or one local to this town. Seems like a good idea since the team in the field was well coached and when the kid showed bunt the corner IFs were charging hard and could definitely have gotten hurt on a well-struck ball off an aluminum bat.

It is legal in high school, and many leagues use the National Federation (ie high school) rules so its usually fine in most middle or high school-aged leagues. For younger leagues (pre-high school), its generally allowed or banned on an independent league-by-league basis. Most leagues have their own specific rulings regarding the "slash" play (as this play, in particular, is called) or other more general rules (when balks are called/bases awarded vs. warning for pitcher/no bases allowed, at what point during the pitcher's delivery stealing is allowed, mandatory sliding into bases, etc, etc. ).

Basically, its a safety issue, and generally pre-high school it's legality is determined by each league.

[Fishercat]

OK, I'm going back a couple years here, but I'm just looking for opinions on what I should have done in this situation. I have a hunch of the answer.

Now, I'm an 18-year old, not an official ump (I was doing some service for my school and my local LL was short on umps: I knew the rules and ump positions, so it was a fit for the 9-11 year old, non-Majors games), completely green in terms of experience. Not that it really matters. I'm on the first base line and a righty hitter is up. Normal pitch is thrown that would be a ball, but the hitter swings. It gets appealed to me, and I honestly cannot tell since it was completely borderline (twice actually, two different games). My eventual choice was basically to go with what I thought was the right call: once it was a strike, once it was a check.

If I don't know because it was a borderline check, what should the call be there? Do you let check swings or even a little past check go and call them checks, or do you go for the strikes if you feel it's right. Really, it's the only thing that seemed to bother the other coaches (that they vocalized to me during the game (no real confrontation, just as an aside) over my handful of games as a base umpire.

Just curious to what you guys think should be done considering the level (just beginning to get competitive).

ETA: As a former LLer and (very shortly) former ump, I tend to give a lot of leeway on judgment calls (as you can see above). I watch so many major league games where I get multiple calls wrong from home, and even some wrong on slow-mo replays. But there's no excuse to not knowing the basics (force plays, really?) or even the more intermediate (I'd throw the balks in here) rules. I can understand LL Umps not knowing the more bizarre subs or something.

Edited by Fishercat, 17 July 2008 - 02:13 AM.

[Mr. Baseball]

Just curious to what you guys think should be done considering the level (just beginning to get competitive).

For me, the check swing is kind of like the pornography rule, 'you can't really define it but you know it when you see it'. I'd say if you think its borderline, then the kid probably didn't swing. Like anything else, the more experience/swings you see the easier it will become. If a coach bitches, remind them its a judgment call.

[Rice4HOF]

There's an old saying that "tie goes to the runner", which does not actually exist anywhere in any rule book. Where this idea got started is that the umpires are instructed to when in doubt, the benefit always goes to the offensive team. For example, if the home plate umpire sneezes while a pitch is thrown and he has no idea where it was, the umpire should call it a ball instead of a strike. If you don't actually see a fielder tag a runner, but are pretty sure he did, you are supposed to call the runner safe (hello, Tim Tschida!!). So on the borderline swing, if you are not sure, then in my opinion it should be a ball. Having said that, I think it is almost physically impossible to check your swing once you start (instant replays show this time and time again - everyone including the ump says no swing, but the replay shows the batter swung all the way through and then quickly pulled his bat back), so I call check swings strikes about 90% of the time I'm asked for an appeal.

[hi neighbor]

OK, I'm going back a couple years here, but I'm just looking for opinions on what I should have done in this situation. I have a hunch of the answer.

Basically, you have to decide from the bases, "Did the batter attempt to strike at the ball?" Any intent is a checked swing strike - IMO. This means as umpires we are aggressive about calling strikes.

If the batter moved the bat to get the rhythm going, that is not necessarily an attempt.

I am sorry about the soon-to-be-former ump. The first year is rough. There is a lot to learn. The fact you put something in here means that you are interested in doing a good job. The game really needs people who want to improve their skills.

In addition to rules, you get to practice some management and leadership skills. As umpires, we get ourselves in trouble not because we were wrong or right, but because of the way we worded an explanation.

I umpire several hundred games each year and have very few nasty experiences. In another year or two you might feel comfortbale calling time and reminding parents that their sole function at this event is to cheer the effort of the players. If there are any more comments about administering or officiating the game, this whole area will need to leave the area. Almost everytime I do something like this, people come up after the game to apologize and state that they got carried away. I bet you really do a nice job.

[wyatt55]

Wish I could've gotten the help on the "questionable call goes to the offense" this Spring. In the Semi-finals of the post-season tourney we were playing a team that beat us bad early in the year and we dropped a 9-7 nailbiter to them near the end of the year. Top of the first, my batter squares around on a full count intending to surprise bunt (grrrr!). Pitch comes in at his feet and he jumps back out of the way but the ball hits his foot. Neither ump sees him pull the bat back as he hopped backwards and they call him out - strike three for offering. I came out and calmly stated my case but they stuck to the right rule (you swing and you're hit, it's a strike) but the wrong judgement (he didn't offer). They rolled us.

Most of our league umps are teenagers so I respectfully introduce myself pre-game and try and get them to relax and be confident and loud, esp balls and strikes and Foul calls. Nothing worse than an indecisive ump. This almost backfired on me one game when relatively close play at second and my runner was safe but the ump boldly called him out. I calmly called time and went out to check with him. I asked him to check with the Home Plate ump and they then conferred and called him safe. After the inning, the base ump tells me "I knew he was safe, but I made the OUT! call by mistake!". He just needed an opportunity to correct his call without looking like a complete fool.

I do carry a copy of our League-specific rules in a binder in the dugout, especially since these are city specific and may be non-standard for LL rules. I usually let the ump know I have them pre-game if they want to confirm anything during the game (run rule, innings pitched max, manditory play, etc.).

Regarding Manditory play, I agreed to pick up a 14th kid this past Spring as a favor to one of my asst coaches (friend of his son, new to the area, supposedly good player, etc.) not realizing truly what this meant to our team. Our league's games have a 6 inning limit. Rule is - No player can sit for 2 consecutive innings and no player can sit more than 2 innings a game. Furthermore, every kid has to play an IF position at least once in the first 4 innings. Well, with 9 positions, I was extremely limited in flexibility and if we ever reached the 6th inning, I couldn't mathematically field a legal team for the sixth. Two kids would bee sitting for the third time. What a nightmare. I actually asked the League Agent to email me giving me a waiver in case some smart-ass tried to make us forfeit due to an illegal lineup. He said "I bet some coach would LOVE to catch you on that".

[Sooner Steve]

Basically, you have to decide from the bases, "Did the batter attempt to strike at the ball?" Any intent is a checked swing strike - IMO. This means as umpires we are aggressive about calling strikes.

If the batter moved the bat to get the rhythm going, that is not necessarily an attempt.

I am sorry about the soon-to-be-former ump. The first year is rough. There is a lot to learn. The fact you put something in here means that you are interested in doing a good job. The game really needs people who want to improve their skills.

In addition to rules, you get to practice some management and leadership skills. As umpires, we get ourselves in trouble not because we were wrong or right, but because of the way we worded an explanation.

I umpire several hundred games each year and have very few nasty experiences. In another year or two you might feel comfortbale calling time and reminding parents that their sole function at this event is to cheer the effort of the players. If there are any more comments about administering or officiating the game, this whole area will need to leave the area. Almost everytime I do something like this, people come up after the game to apologize and state that they got carried away. I bet you really do a nice job.

as a fifteen year veteran umpire i will wholeheartedly back up the need to control the crowd IF they are getting onto the opposing players...otherwise you never acknowledge them - period - to do so is to invite them to amp it up


HANTA YO

[LoweTek]

I have a question to the umpires about balks. This is a big problem in my league. We have a lot of pitchers who bounce out of the stretch and do not come to a complete stop. This is 18U Babe Ruth. I had an opposing pitcher doing this last week while mixing in long pauses (on purpose in other words) and finally went out to the base umpire and very respectfully mentioned it. Didn't change anything. Kid still bounced out of the bottom of his stretch without a discernable pause. But he apparently heard me and paused consistently for the next few pitches following my visit to the umpire then went right back to it. Game conditions didn't warrant my discussing it further as we got rained out the following inning. Any words of wisdom on questioning or mentioning (non) balk calls?

[boogerpressley]

The gray area surrounding the balk rule comes into play all too often. Is it a balk only if someone is deceived? Why do some interpretations allow for deception (ie. fake to third with direct throw to first without full disengagement from pitchers plate)? Do we or should we as coaches and umpires rule balks the same despite the level of play? Is a change of direction, a complete stop? How long is the stop for a complete stop? These are all questions that I have come across along the way as well. I would mention to the umpire that the pitcher is intentionally trying to deceive the baserunner by changing up his rythym to the plate which isnt illegal. However, Under National Federation of State High School Associations rules, it is a balk if the pitcher when going from the stretch to the set position, fails to make a complete stop with his hands together before beginning to pitch. These kids are old enough to know what a balk is and what it isnt so at the level you are playing at it should be called.

Edited by boogerpressley, 14 October 2008 - 06:58 PM.

[Stretch82]

I have a balk story from this past summer. I was assistant coach on a 13-year old travel team. First summer on the big diamond for these kids, so pitchers are still getting used to the idea of throwing from the stretch, and what they can and can't do from that position. These are the elite kids in town, though, so this is pretty high quality baseball considering the age group. We play high school rules, and there are two umpires for each game.

So we're playing out in Simsbury against a team that is every bit our equal. We go down 1-2-3 in the top of the first, and head out to the field for the bottom half. Their first batter is a lefty, and he digs in for the first pitch. As our pitcher goes into his windup, our manager yells to the RF to take a step back. Our pitcher hears the shout and stops, mid-windup. The home plate ump immediately throws up his arms and yells "BALK!"

Umm...what?

We laugh, thinking he's kidding around. "Hey Blue, no one on base!" we say, and he says "yup, you're right. Ball one!"

Huh?

We're confused, but don't really say anything more. As the game goes on, we take a 1-0 lead on, of all things, a balk. With runners on 2nd and 3rd the base umpire calls a legitimate balk on their pitcher, scoring a run and moving the other runner to 3b. The HP ump, on the call, adds another ball to the count. He clearly is under the impression that a balk automatically adds a ball to the count on the hitter.

They come up in the 4th inning trailing us 2-0, and load the bases on walks. We think we're getting squeezed, as we've been grousing a bit about the strike zone. Next hitter chops one off the plate back to the pitcher, who starts a home-to-first DP, but the base umpire yells "FOUL BALL!" Our manager starts out to argue that it hit the plate, which is in fair territory, but the HP ump stops him before he gets two steps on the field and says "back in the dugout, coach -- you can't argue a judgment call!" Now we're really getting pissed. The strike zone disappears at this point, and they end up scoring six runs off three different pitchers as we walk NINE batters in the inning.

As the inning mercifully ends, our manager (who is as level-headed as they come) heads out to talk to the base umpire. Can't do anything about the bad call at this point, but he just wants clarification on whether the umpire thought the ball hit the batter, or the plate, or what. The HP ump won't stand for it though, and refuses to allow our manager to talk to the base ump at all. He warns him to get back in the dugout, but our manager says (quite calmly) "I just want to talk to your partner for a minute." The HP ump goes ballistic, and tosses our manager. Throws him out of the game, and will not allow the game to continue until he has literaly gotten in his car and left the park (note, the manager's son is on the team and now will have to get a ride with one of us).

We end up losing the game 9-2. Manager calls up the district supervisor the next day and reports the whole mess. Bottom line? The ump was banned from any further duties in this league. I've never seen an umpire as ignorant of the rules, or as quick on the trigger with his temper.

[Myt1]

These kids are old enough to know what a balk is and what it isnt so at the level you are playing at it should be called.

Agreed. You're doing them a disservice otherwise. During my brother's college spring training tournament last season, there was one game with 7 balk calls. 5 were for failure to come to a set position. It completely changed the complexion of the game, and one of the pitchers (4 balks) got thrown out in frustration.

EDIT: Stretch, there are leagues in which a bases empty balk is properly called a ball (including Little League; it's the penalty for an "illegal pitch," IIRC). However, I've never seen both a base and a ball awarded.

Edited by Myt1, 15 October 2008 - 10:21 AM.

[Average Reds]

Stretch, there are leagues in which a bases empty balk is properly called a ball (including Little League; it's the penalty for an "illegal pitch," IIRC). However, I've never seen both a base and a ball awarded.

The ump probably got the first call right, but it seems like it was more of an accident than anything else, since I've never heard of a case where you impose both penaties on a team.

The foul ball call is truly awful, since it's one of the more basic ules of baseball and they don't appear to have a clue about what they are doing.

You are correct that the plate is in play, but the reality is that it doesn't matter - that ball would have been in play unless it had hit the batter in the box or any player/ump while foul. So long as it does not, a batted ball that ends up in play is a fair ball. This is why first and third basemen quickly grab soft ground balls down the line as soon as they roll foul - if they hit something and roll back over the line before being touched they are fair balls.

It's probably true that you aren't allowed to contest this kind of judgement call in your league, but it sounds like you had an ump who was (a) incompetent; and (b) drunk with power. So he got what he deserved in the end.

[LoweTek]

I had two separate situations in one of my games this past week. This is 18U Senior Babe Ruth. first one, my team is in the field. First batter in the inning walks. During his lead off first, while my pitcher is in the set position, the runner is barking under his breath, "Throw it! Throw it over!" I made a comment from the 1B dugout intended for the 1B coach (and the player) to hear, something like, "What kind of crap is that, chirping at the pitcher. Come on..."

Now, to my knowledge, there is no clear written rule against this behavior. However, I believe it is the umpire's job to enforce sportmanlike conduct as well written rule, especially at this level where it can get volatile due to the ages. I've had to break up fights over kids mouthing off at each other. After the inning as I was heading over to the 3B coach's box, I stopped and mentioned it to the umpires, both chatting together while the pitcher warmed up. "I know it's not in the book but this kid on first was yelling at my pitcher during his set to 'Throw it! Throw it!,' obviously trying to deceive or confuse him. Maybe it's not in the rules, but sure is chicken s*it. Woudn't you agree?"

"I thought it was your first baseman calling for the ball," the base ump says.

"That's the point," I said. "Just so you know, we actually have a sign for a throw over to first base. It would be great if we could prevent that kind of crap."

"I agree," The home plate guy says. Apparently he said something to the opposing coach later.

Was I out of line to mention this to them? Should I expect umpires to be receptive to this kind of thing?

Second situation we are hitting, my runner on third, wild pitch. My runner goes on his own (backstop is very close to home plate at our field and I usually don't send them). Close play ensues. My guy is called out, third out. I say to my runner, "That looked close. Probably not a situation to go in." (The number 3 hitter was at the plate).

He says, "The pitcher dropped the ball."

I go over to the ump and ask him politely, "Did the pitcher drop the ball?"

The umpire moves toward me all pissed off, makes physical contact with me, grabs my arm and lightly shoves, barks at me nasty under his breath (while spitting tobacco juice or something), "The play was over. It fell out of his glove after the play was over."

Now, even from my angle in the 3B coach's box even though I did not see the ball come out of the pitcher's glove, I knew this couldn't possibly be true. I decided not to continue the conversation and just said, "That's fine, thanks," and walked away.

I don't think enough people saw him come in contact with me to support a complaint. He was very subtle. Coincidentally, it was also the last inning of the second game and we had broken open a one run game with 6 runs that inning. The umpires are well known for "speeding things up" late in the second game. Up to that point, I thought I had a pretty good repore with this guy, even though he is a very strange dude.

Any thoughts from the umpires on this one?

[Buck Showalter]

I had two separate situations in one of my games this past week. This is 18U Senior Babe Ruth. first one, my team is in the field. First batter in the inning walks. During his lead off first, while my pitcher is in the set position, the runner is barking under his breath, "Throw it! Throw it over!" I made a comment from the 1B dugout intended for the 1B coach (and the player) to hear, something like, "What kind of crap is that, chirping at the pitcher. Come on..."

Now, to my knowledge, there is no clear written rule against this behavior. However, I believe it is the umpire's job to enforce sportmanlike conduct as well written rule, especially at this level where it can get volatile due to the ages. I've had to break up fights over kids mouthing off at each other. After the inning as I was heading over to the 3B coach's box, I stopped and mentioned it to the umpires, both chatting together while the pitcher warmed up. "I know it's not in the book but this kid on first was yelling at my pitcher during his set to 'Throw it! Throw it!,' obviously trying to deceive or confuse him. Maybe it's not in the rules, but sure is chicken s*it. Woudn't you agree?"

"I thought it was your first baseman calling for the ball," the base ump says.

"That's the point," I said. "Just so you know, we actually have a sign for a throw over to first base. It would be great if we could prevent that kind of crap."

"I agree," The home plate guy says. Apparently he said something to the opposing coach later.

Was I out of line to mention this to them? Should I expect umpires to be receptive to this kind of thing?

Second situation we are hitting, my runner on third, wild pitch. My runner goes on his own (backstop is very close to home plate at our field and I usually don't send them). Close play ensues. My guy is called out, third out. I say to my runner, "That looked close. Probably not a situation to go in." (The number 3 hitter was at the plate).

He says, "The pitcher dropped the ball."

I go over to the ump and ask him politely, "Did the pitcher drop the ball?"

The umpire moves toward me all pissed off, makes physical contact with me, grabs my arm and lightly shoves, barks at me nasty under his breath (while spitting tobacco juice or something), "The play was over. It fell out of his glove after the play was over."

Now, even from my angle in the 3B coach's box even though I did not see the ball come out of the pitcher's glove, I knew this couldn't possibly be true. I decided not to continue the conversation and just said, "That's fine, thanks," and walked away.

I don't think enough people saw him come in contact with me to support a complaint. He was very subtle. Coincidentally, it was also the last inning of the second game and we had broken open a one run game with 6 runs that inning. The umpires are well known for "speeding things up" late in the second game. Up to that point, I thought I had a pretty good repore with this guy, even though he is a very strange dude.

Any thoughts from the umpires on this one?

I've been umpiring that level for 14 years so I think my opinion my be worth two grains of salt here...

In short:

First situation --- I thought you handled it well. The umpires should be pro-active in 'putting out fires' and he should quietly speak to the other coach in between innings telling him to speak with the kid who was 'chirping' at your pitcher. There's no need for that non-sense.

Second situation --- I had to read two or three times...and I'm still stunned that the umpire made any physical contact with you...kidding or not. He'll meet up with the wrong coach one day and he'll be sorry. Speeding up the game(s)? Sure - I do it all the time but I cannot remember having done it during any game that was within one run with one or two innings remaining...regardless of the number of runs that followed.

[Sooner Steve]

I've been umpiring that level for 14 years so I think my opinion my be worth two grains of salt here...

In short:

First situation --- I thought you handled it well. The umpires should be pro-active in 'putting out fires' and he should quietly speak to the other coach in between innings telling him to speak with the kid who was 'chirping' at your pitcher. There's no need for that non-sense.

Second situation --- I had to read two or three times...and I'm still stunned that the umpire made any physical contact with you...kidding or not. He'll meet up with the wrong coach one day and he'll be sorry. Speeding up the game(s)? Sure - I do it all the time but I cannot remember having done it during any game that was within one run with one or two innings remaining...regardless of the number of runs that followed.

as a fifteen plus year veteran umpire i will second both points - my only added caveat to the first being that the field blue should've intervened immediately when the runner began chirping at the pitcher...

[LoweTek]

Second situation --- I had to read two or three times...and I'm still stunned that the umpire made any physical contact with you...kidding or not. He'll meet up with the wrong coach one day and he'll be sorry. Speeding up the game(s)? Sure - I do it all the time but I cannot remember having done it during any game that was within one run with one or two innings remaining...regardless of the number of runs that followed.

He wasn't kidding. There is no mistaking he was pissed. I was not argumentative in the least. It was the top of the last inning. We were visitors. We had a one run lead going into the inning and with two outs had scored six when the incident occurred. It was 4-3 to start the inning, 10-3 when the play happened. I thought he was pissed at a combination of an impression we might be piling on (the runs) and his effort to speed it up. In hindsight, the other team was pretty much conceding from the start of the inning. I was running until we got three runs and after the first couple they stopped throwing down. Their pitcher was gassed and they had no one to go to. I stopped any play calling after the lead was comfortable and just let it play out. I was conscious that the other team was beaten and conscious of not running it up on them. I've seen countless calls made late in non-close games by otherwise decent umpires where the play was close enough, yet clearly safe (or a ball or checked swing), where the out or strike is called in order to speed it up. It's pretty much expected in games where there is a several run margin or it is obvious the team behind on the scoreboard has nothing left. As I said, this blue is a really strange dude. Even in idle chit chat he goes off on odd tangents, changes subjects and rants out of context.

[LoweTek]

as a fifteen plus year veteran umpire i will second both points - my only added caveat to the first being that the field blue should've intervened immediately when the runner began chirping at the pitcher...

The field blue said he thought it was my first baseman who was doing the chirping. The runner was disguising it well, not moving his lips much, etc. It wasn't obvious from his spot in front of 2B.

[Rice4HOF]

Regarding the first issue, note that the offensive team CANNOT do anything that entices a pitcher to balk. If for example, the pitcher had started his windup, heard the runner say "throw it over", and threw over to 1st, the balk would be waived off. Furthermore, the rules actually call for the offender (or offenders) to be ejected from the game. (I realize your case was slightly different, because the umps didn't realize it was the runner). (Rule 4.06)

As a coach, I saw a similar version of this happen in our 12-13 year old league, where the opposing pitcher wasn't coming to a discernible stop, and one of my assistants kept harping on the ump to enforce that by calling a balk. One of the times as the pitcher started to throw, my coach yelled "BALK!!", and the pitcher stopped his delivery resulting in an obvious balk. The ump waived the balk off, and politely told my coach to STFU. We got lucky. If I had been behind the plate I would have tossed the coach for that.
(Then again, I'm known for having a quick trigger with my ejections.... As an ump I have pretty thick skin and can take a lot of verbal abuse but you gotta follow the rules.)

[Celtic745]

I thought about starting a new topic for this, but then figured posting it here would be okay. I haven't posted anything for a while, but I had to ask about this.
I'm 17 years old and I just signed up to be an umpire in my local townships baseball league. I'll be umpiring kids from anywhere between 2nd - 6th graders, and this is the first time I've ever umpired before. I've got my first umpiring assignment coming up (5th and 6th graders) this Friday, and I was looking for a little advice. I'm a little nervous too. I already know parents can be tough on umps most of the time. Anyone have any good words of wisdom? Anything in particular I should be looking for as far as common mistakes 5th and 6th graders make regarding the rules?

[czar]

I thought about starting a new topic for this, but then figured posting it here would be okay. I haven't posted anything for a while, but I had to ask about this.
I'm 17 years old and I just signed up to be an umpire in my local townships baseball league. I'll be umpiring kids from anywhere between 2nd - 6th graders, and this is the first time I've ever umpired before. I've got my first umpiring assignment coming up (5th and 6th graders) this Friday, and I was looking for a little advice. I'm a little nervous too. I already know parents can be tough on umps most of the time. Anyone have any good words of wisdom? Anything in particular I should be looking for as far as common mistakes 5th and 6th graders make regarding the rules?

Don't give a **** about what the parents say. Trust me, it's not worth even thinking about-- you'll only get inside your own head.

The most important thing to remember? Prepare for the unexpected. Plays that are routine for a big leaguer on TV can turn into ridiculous free-for-alls in LL. Need to always be paying attention-- follow the play, and everyone involved-- don't assume anything. When I first started (about your age, maybe a bit younger) that was something I learned the hard one through one or two weird plays (outfielders crashing into and breaking down outfield fences, popups that drop between 4 players while runners start passing each other on the basepaths, etc.)

Oh.

Read the thread if you are umping for anyone here.

[CSteinhardt]

Here's the one that drove me out of umpiring.

Bases loaded, 1 out, bottom of the last, "Junior League" (13/14) playoff game, batting team behind by 2. One of the things I always hated about this league was that I'd end up calling a lot of balks, partly because that was the direction as it was a teaching league, but a balk is pretty much a guaranteed argument.

Anyway, batting team calls time, brings in a pinch runner, and calls their other runners over for a quick conference. Everybody gets back on their bases. I put the ball in play. Pitcher goes into his windup, at which point one of the coaches from his own team yells at him not to throw a pitch. He stops just short of actually throwing, and I call the balk. The fielding team's manager now comes running out of the dugout, and I cut him off politely but firmly, explaining that it was his own coach that created the situation and there's not much I can do about it. He then explains that during that conference, the batting team switched who was on what base in order to put their slowest runner on 3rd base instead of 2nd. And, upon closer examination, he's correct.

My base umpire was no help here; he was even less experienced than I was. I know the "right" decision would be that somehow I should at least cancel the balk, and ideally find an out or two in this mess.

However, my understanding of the rules is as follows:

Nobody passed a runner or ran the bases in reverse order while the ball was in play. A balk did occur with the ball in play, and there's no excuse I can find for not enforcing it.

So, I ejected all three baserunners and the manager of the batting team, but then when the runners were duly replaced, enforced the balk. I'd love to tell you that the fielding team took this calmly, settled down, and held the 1-run lead, but I'd be lying.

To this day I think I probably should have made the mistake of not realizing that any passing or running in reverse order happened when the ball was not in play and awarded two outs, ended the game, and then let the batting team try and appeal my decision to the commissioner, knowing the mood the commissioner would be in when he got that appeal. I'm curious what some of the more experienced umps would have done. Obviously I screwed up royally by not checking that the correct people were on the correct bases before allowing the ball to be in play.

On the plus side, I saw a game that same day in which the plate umpire called a popup towards third an infield fly (omitting the "if fair" bit), watched the wind blow it foul, had it land foul, had the runner from second base tried to run towards third while F5 picked it up (still in foul territory), threw to F6, and F6 tagged the runner before he reached third base. The plate umpire ended up with two outs on the play. So I probably wasn't the worst umpire in the league.

[LoweTek]

Anyway, batting team calls time, brings in a pinch runner, and calls their other runners over for a quick conference. Everybody gets back on their bases. I put the ball in play. Pitcher goes into his windup, at which point one of the coaches from his own team yells at him not to throw a pitch. He stops just short of actually throwing, and I call the balk. The fielding team's manager now comes running out of the dugout, and I cut him off politely but firmly, explaining that it was his own coach that created the situation and there's not much I can do about it. He then explains that during that conference, the batting team switched who was on what base in order to put their slowest runner on 3rd base instead of 2nd. And, upon closer examination, he's correct.

My base umpire was no help here; he was even less experienced than I was. I know the "right" decision would be that somehow I should at least cancel the balk, and ideally find an out or two in this mess.

However, my understanding of the rules is as follows:

Nobody passed a runner or ran the bases in reverse order while the ball was in play. A balk did occur with the ball in play, and there's no excuse I can find for not enforcing it.

So, I ejected all three baserunners and the manager of the batting team, but then when the runners were duly replaced, enforced the balk. I'd love to tell you that the fielding team took this calmly, settled down, and held the 1-run lead, but I'd be lying.

To this day I think I probably should have made the mistake of not realizing that any passing or running in reverse order happened when the ball was not in play and awarded two outs, ended the game, and then let the batting team try and appeal my decision to the commissioner, knowing the mood the commissioner would be in when he got that appeal. I'm curious what some of the more experienced umps would have done. Obviously I screwed up royally by not checking that the correct people were on the correct bases before allowing the ball to be in play.

What is unclear about this is who were the pinch runners. Did he move the runner who was on first to third? Were the pinch runners not otherwise in the game? Are there any exceptions to substitution rules in your league? The balk happened while the ball was in play so IMO that is your first point of enforcement. Then, assuming local substitution rules do not address the situation directly, determining who was on which base prior to and after the pinch running substitutions. If the runner on third was "illegal," i.e. he was on another base previously or otherwise not eligible to be put in the game on third base at that time, then I call him out and pull down the run. Ejecting the kid seems harsh given he only did what the coach told him to do. Repeat this with the other runners. If either of the other two are ineligible, game over. The fielding coach is ejected as a formality regardless.

My take.

The distracting mistake belongs to the fielding coach for not letting the kid throw the first pitch, calling time and then calling your attention to the situation. Although if the batting coach swapped the runners on second and third respectively, the outcome remains the same, both runners out, no run, game over, coach ejected.

[CSteinhardt]

What is unclear about this is who were the pinch runners. Did he move the runner who was on first to third? Were the pinch runners not otherwise in the game? Are there any exceptions to substitution rules in your league? The balk happened while the ball was in play so IMO that is your first point of enforcement. Then, assuming local substitution rules do not address the situation directly, determining who was on which base prior to and after the pinch running substitutions. If the runner on third was "illegal," i.e. he was on another base previously or otherwise not eligible to be put in the game on third base at that time, then I call him out and pull down the run. Ejecting the kid seems harsh given he only did what the coach told him to do. Repeat this with the other runners. If either of the other two are ineligible, game over. The fielding coach is ejected as a formality regardless.

I believe the swap was between first and third, with the valid pinch runner being put into the ballgame on second base. Which means, there was no illegal substitution involved.

What I don't understand here is the justification for awarding the out, other than that it seems like the right result. Nobody seems to have done any of the things which would result in an out while the ball was in play, and the rules are pretty clear (see 5.02 in the major league rulebook, for example) that I cannot award an out for things that happen while the ball was not in play.

One the ball was put in play, the balk happened without any other action, and then it was a dead ball again. So, it seems that I need to enforce the balk first (which is going to score a run), prior to any other action. But I also don't see any justification for the out. In fact, a balk is particularly unfortunate, because the BOOT rules imply that balks should be considered defensive mistakes independent of the individual batting, and therefore presumably of the individuals running.

As for ejecting the runners, I agree it's very harsh to eject a 13/14 year old, and I wouldn't do it lightly. However, these are kids that have been playing baseball for a number of years at this point, and they know what base they are supposed to be standing on. The kids know they're trying to cheat, and I highly doubt that their manager is about to lecture them on why what they did was wrong. Further, they're about to get away with it in the sense that I can't find an out, and they're going to benefit. If I were able to find the justification for two outs here, it would end their season, which would certainly be enough of a good "teaching moment" that I'd have left well enough alone. Having said that, I'm perfectly willing to believe I screwed that one up too, because clearly I didn't handle the whole situation very well.

[CrackpotTheory]

Could you in any way invoke rule 7.02?

In advancing, a runner shall touch first, second, third and home base in order. If forced to return, he shall retouch all bases in reverse order, unless the ball is dead under any provision of Rule 5.09. In such cases, the runner may go directly to his original base.

The runner standing on third did not legally acquire that base since he did not touch second. He could no more do that than sneak out of the dugout before an inning started and stand on 3rd hoping no one noticed. Should the pitcher give up a HR on the next pitch, the team doesn't get 2 runs because it wasn't noticed.

Following that, in the comment for Rule 7.01, it states that a runner that legally acquires a base may not return to a previously occupied base. Therefore the runner now on first cannot go back there after touching second.

I think the, outside of talking to anyone else, that I would have claimed the ball was not legally in play, returned the runners to their previous bases, and ejected the manager. I would not have called the runner out any more than I would award an out for a runner that attempts to steal a base, and the batter hits a foul ball, and doesn't immediately return to his previous base. The game simply would not resume until he moved.

What was the reasoning behind ejecting the valid pinch runner? And you could likely claim a tortuous interpretation of illegal subsitution by saying the 2 baserunners substituted for each other.

This is a fun one though. I wonder if MLB has any "Ask the umpire" type of things.

Edited by CrackpotTheory, 26 March 2009 - 02:27 PM.

[CSteinhardt]

Could you in any way invoke rule 7.02?
The runner standing on third did not legally acquire that base since he did not touch second. He could no more do that than sneak out of the dugout before an inning started and stand on 3rd hoping no one noticed. Should the pitcher give up a HR on the next pitch, the team doesn't get 2 runs because it wasn't noticed.

First off, let me remind you all that I'm definitely not the most experienced umpire on this board by any stretch of the imagination, and I'm going to explain it the way I saw it/called it, but that doesn't make it right. Now that I'm merely an ex-umpire, I can admit that.

If a runner snuck out onto the field and stood on third base and watched a homerun, my understanding would be that I would first rectify the situation (i.e., throw the guy off the field) and then the batter would be entitled to his four bases. But my understanding is that the only way in which the homerun would not stand would be if in the opinion of myself or one of the other umpires, the rogue runner was guilty of interference.

So in your scenario, I'd deal with the rogue runner separately but would allow the result of the play to stand barring interference. I would also probably be disposed to define interference quite liberally if there were any doubt, but in the case of a ball hit over the fence, it would seem pretty unlikely.

Following that, in the comment for Rule 7.01, it states that a runner that legally acquires a base may not return to a previously occupied base. Therefore the runner now on first cannot go back there after touching second.

I think the, outside of talking to anyone else, that I would have claimed the ball was not legally in play, returned the runners to their previous bases, and ejected the manager. I would not have called the runner out any more than I would award an out for a runner that attempts to steal a base, and the batter hits a foul ball, and doesn't immediately return to his previous base. The game simply would not resume until he moved.

The problem is, the runner on first went back there during a dead ball. The ball obviously shouldn't have been put into play, but that would be akin to accidentally putting the ball in play while baserunners went over to talk to each other and then immediately calling them out for standing in such a manner that one had passed the other.

I suppose the problem is that this seems to me to be closest in the rules to a batting out of turn situation. Meaning, since the defense appealed the situation before anything other than a balk had actually happened, the runners simply get put back into the correct spots. If the runners had actually done something followed by an appeal, by analogy to BOOT there would be justification (perhaps?) for calling the runner out on the basis of the appeal, and I decided, admittedly without being too confident in my decision, that he BOOT rules were the closest ones and therefore what I should be reasoning from. The problem is, BOOT is also very clear that a balk gets enforced anyway. Hence the idea that I'm supposed to put everybody back on their correct bases (since the fielding team alerted me to the problem), not declare any outs (since they alerted me to the problem before the runners had done whatever it was they were going to do, by analogy to waiting for an at-bat to complete in a BOOT situation) and then enforce the balk from there.

The thing is, had I been thinking more clearly, you're right - as soon as I realized the defensive coach had merit, I should have decided that before the balk occurred, I got something in my eye and lost track of the play, and therefore called time. "What, you didn't hear me? Sorry, I'll try to be a little louder next time".

What was the reasoning behind ejecting the valid pinch runner? And you could likely claim a tortuous interpretation of illegal subsitution by saying the 2 baserunners substituted for each other.

This is a fun one though. I wonder if MLB has any "Ask the umpire" type of things.

The reasoning was basically that the coach had talked with all three of them before doing this, and so I was ejecting the three runners and the coach because they were all in on this and should have known better, so they were all guilty of unsportsmanlike conduct. With that said, I agree it's much more clear-cut in the case of the two people that were standing in the wrong place and the coach who told them to do it. The whole thing was a mess - you don't get into umpiring because you want to eject 13 year old kids (or even their loud, obnoxious parents).

Edit: I suck at quote tags.

Edited by CSteinhardt, 26 March 2009 - 03:28 PM.

[LoweTek]

Could you in any way invoke rule 7.02?
The runner standing on third did not legally acquire that base since he did not touch second. He could no more do that than sneak out of the dugout before an inning started and stand on 3rd hoping no one noticed. Should the pitcher give up a HR on the next pitch, the team doesn't get 2 runs because it wasn't noticed.

Following that, in the comment for Rule 7.01, it states that a runner that legally acquires a base may not return to a previously occupied base. Therefore the runner now on first cannot go back there after touching second.

I think the, outside of talking to anyone else, that I would have claimed the ball was not legally in play, returned the runners to their previous bases, and ejected the manager. I would not have called the runner out any more than I would award an out for a runner that attempts to steal a base, and the batter hits a foul ball, and doesn't immediately return to his previous base. The game simply would not resume until he moved.

What was the reasoning behind ejecting the valid pinch runner? And you could likely claim a tortuous interpretation of illegal subsitution by saying the 2 baserunners substituted for each other.

This is a fun one though. I wonder if MLB has any "Ask the umpire" type of things.

Bolded part is the catch. How are you going to justify putting the runner on third back on first? It was a pre-existing violation prior to the coincidence of the post-balk dead ball. I don't see any dead ball rule applying here. The only thing I can see the batting manager claiming here is that liberal substitution rules might allow him to do this under some kind of bizzarre double switch scenario. However, in my view this is akin to batting out of order or an act under travesty of the game rules. Even if you were undecided, the out is because the baserunners "advanced" (and in one case retreated) to bases not previously occupied without touching/re-touching.

In any interpretation, the batting manager is ejected and I hope is/was never allowed to coach again.

[leftfieldlegacy]

I thought about starting a new topic for this, but then figured posting it here would be okay. I haven't posted anything for a while, but I had to ask about this.
I'm 17 years old and I just signed up to be an umpire in my local townships baseball league. I'll be umpiring kids from anywhere between 2nd - 6th graders, and this is the first time I've ever umpired before. I've got my first umpiring assignment coming up (5th and 6th graders) this Friday, and I was looking for a little advice. I'm a little nervous too. I already know parents can be tough on umps most of the time. Anyone have any good words of wisdom? Anything in particular I should be looking for as far as common mistakes 5th and 6th graders make regarding the rules?

As a parent (and former coach) of a 6th grader, I think I can offer some advice.

5th and 6th graders know how to play ball, they just don’t play well consistently, especially early in the season. Make sure you are familiar with the rules that are specific to this age group. For example, are runners required to slide into home to avoid collisions, is the infield fly rule in effect, what is the strike zone for this group, etc.

Some kids at this age are still throwing the bat after they hit the ball. Know if you should give a warning for a first offense. Baseline interference is also common as is running out of the base path.

Clarify the ground rules with both coaches before the game. You need to know when a ball is in play and when it is dead. There will be plenty of overthrows to test you on this.

If a coach needs to talk to you, make sure only one coach per team is allowed to be a part of the discussion.

And as far as communication goes:
Talk to the players as often as you want to, talk to the coaches only when you need to and never talk to the parents.

Good Luck and let us know how you did.

[CrackpotTheory]

Bolded part is the catch. How are you going to justify putting the runner on third back on first? It was a pre-existing violation prior to the coincidence of the post-balk dead ball. I don't see any dead ball rule applying here. The only thing I can see the batting manager claiming here is that liberal substitution rules might allow him to do this under some kind of bizzarre double switch scenario. However, in my view this is akin to batting out of order or an act under travesty of the game rules. Even if you were undecided, the out is because the baserunners "advanced" (and in one case retreated) to bases not previously occupied without touching/re-touching.

In any interpretation, the batting manager is ejected and I hope is/was never allowed to coach again.

It's almost hard to justify *any* ruling. I think the "fairest" (and we know that doesn't really matter) would be to nullify the balk, put everyone back where they started, and eject the manager. But, you can't really have a do over.

How would an experienced ump deal with a guy not returning to a previous base after a foul ball if it wasn't noticed until one pitch later?

I'm going to submit this to a few "ask the ump" sites I found.

[CrackpotTheory]

The consensus, from an "ask the ump" site seems to be something like the following:

The game is over. One runner passed an unobstructed preceding runner, and at least one other ran the bases in reverse order making a travesty of the game. Grab them both. They deserve it.

They also said that if there had been no outs when it happened (meaning the game was not over), you would enforce the balk after calling the 2 outs.

They said what the coach did made a "travesty" of the game and because of that the umpire has some discretion. As a matter of record, the manager should get tossed and a report sent to the league.

[CSteinhardt]

The consensus, from an "ask the ump" site seems to be something like the following:
They also said that if there had been no outs when it happened (meaning the game was not over), you would enforce the balk after calling the 2 outs.

They said what the coach did made a "travesty" of the game and because of that the umpire has some discretion. As a matter of record, the manager should get tossed and a report sent to the league.

That's the outcome I would have preferred, too, I just didn't think I had the latitude to find those two outs. So, just to be clear, they didn't actually think that the letter of the rulebook gave the two outs, but that the nature of the unsportsmanlike conduct was such that I would be justified in interpreting the rules in such a manner as to find them?

What about the case in which a runner from first decides to stay on second after a foul ball and then the pitcher balks on the next pitch? Would they then put him back on first and enforce the balk? Would they, arguing from the travesty point of view, decide that the runner standing on second base must have created the balk through distracting the pitcher by being in the wrong place?

[CrackpotTheory]

I'll ask a follow-up about that.

One thing some are saying is that (and this might depend on league or organization specific rules) is that coach's cannot entice a player into balking. The rule in one ump's book does not specify this only applies to one team.

Most of them are saying is that in a situation with no easily ID'ed rule to follow, you use common sense and that dictates that the runners that purposely violated the rules are ejected and called out. There are no other penalties. A straight ejection doesn't really harm the team. The punishment for their actions is the out.

Edited by CrackpotTheory, 27 March 2009 - 11:50 AM.

[Fred not Lynn]

Anyway, batting team calls time, brings in a pinch runner, and calls their other runners over for a quick conference. Everybody gets back on their bases. I put the ball in play. Pitcher goes into his windup, at which point one of the coaches from his own team yells at him not to throw a pitch. He stops just short of actually throwing, and I call the balk. The fielding team's manager now comes running out of the dugout, and I cut him off politely but firmly, explaining that it was his own coach that created the situation and there's not much I can do about it. He then explains that during that conference, the batting team switched who was on what base in order to put their slowest runner on 3rd base instead of 2nd. And, upon closer examination, he's correct.

So, I ejected all three baserunners and the manager of the batting team, but then when the runners were duly replaced, enforced the balk. I'd love to tell you that the fielding team took this calmly, settled down, and held the 1-run lead, but I'd be lying.

I think a key point here is intent. Did the offensive coach deliberately switch the runners, or was it an honest error. I guess that's a judegment call. If it was intentional, I'd think you'd eject a pile of people, and restart the game from the point before the infraction occured - with baserunners where they belong...and no balk. The whole situation came about as a result of the offensive coach making a travesty of the game - I don't think the fielding team should bear any negative impact.

If it was unintentional, I'd guess the same - except without ejections. I believe this situation would be covered under the magic "umpire can do what he wants if its not clear by the book" rule. I'd defend the call to the offensive coach on the grounds that he's lucky the other guy caught the "mistake" in time.

[CrackpotTheory]

If it was unintentional, I'd guess the same - except without ejections.

What argument would you accept from the runners that would convince you that they forgot which base they were on?