167 replies to this topic

[BigMike]

My team is cruising to an 8-0 record so far, so there is no real reason for me to be frustrated, but I try to teach kids baseball (sometimes I am failing) , and yet repeatedly I deal with umpires who have no absolutely no concept of the rules of baseball (or little league baseball)

Last night just got rediculous for me. And this is a "trained" patched umpire

First the umpire came up with some imaginary rule. We all know the slide or avoid contact rule. Last night we had a wild pitch, the runner from third scores easily, no contact at home plate, and the pitcher never even got all the way to the plate, although he was close. The umpire calls the runner out. Umpire claims rule is runner must slide into home plate or he is out. Said he called his supervisor who told him he was out, just baffling

Later in the game the umpire called a batter out for throwing the bat. Not a rule. I have seen some umpired warn kids, threaten kids, but it isn't a rule.

Finally, although it did not come into play, I found out later in the game that he didn't even understand the force out rules. Runner on first is in his first year playing, and is rarely on base, and is having a real difficult time running the bases when he gets on. Anyway ground ball to first. firstbaseman steps on the base. For some reason my runner stops about half way to second. Firstbaseman throws to second. I yell for the runner to go back to first. He doesn't listen and is ultimately tagged out. Umpire walks over to me and tells me he would have been out anyway, because he can not return to firstbase on the play. Good lord man, the force is off once the firstbase bag is tagged, why do you think they have to tag the runner at second in that case??????

[PaulinMyrBch]

My team is cruising to an 8-0 record so far, so there is no real reason for me to be frustrated, but I try to teach kids baseball (sometimes I am failing) , and yet repeatedly I deal with umpires who have no absolutely no concept of the rules of baseball (or little league baseball)

Last night just got I can't spell simple words for me. And this is a "trained" patched umpire

First the umpire came up with some imaginary rule. We all know the slide or avoid contact rule. Last night we had a wild pitch, the runner from third scores easily, no contact at home plate, and the pitcher never even got all the way to the plate, although he was close. The umpire calls the runner out. Umpire claims rule is runner must slide into home plate or he is out. Said he called his supervisor who told him he was out, just baffling

Later in the game the umpire called a batter out for throwing the bat. Not a rule. I have seen some umpired warn kids, threaten kids, but it isn't a rule.

Finally, although it did not come into play, I found out later in the game that he didn't even understand the force out rules. Runner on first is in his first year playing, and is rarely on base, and is having a real difficult time running the bases when he gets on. Anyway ground ball to first. firstbaseman steps on the base. For some reason my runner stops about half way to second. Firstbaseman throws to second. I yell for the runner to go back to first. He doesn't listen and is ultimately tagged out. Umpire walks over to me and tells me he would have been out anyway, because he can not return to firstbase on the play. Good lord man, the force is off once the firstbase bag is tagged, why do you think they have to tag the runner at second in that case??????

I've seen or heard both of the first two examples. Some leagues have those as local league rules. If there is a play they must slide, catcher cannot block the plate, can't knock over the catcher. The opposite problem occures, catcher ends up blocking the plate because that is where the throw came in, runner slides, never gets the plate because its being blocked and he can't pull a Pete Rose, so runner is usually out when it should be safe because the catcher blocked home inadvertently.

On the bat, in our league, its one warning and then out the second time you sling it.

Also, we get called out if the helmet comes off before you cross the plate.

[pedro1918]

A few years ago, I had an umpire go from one extreme to the other during the same game.

Early in the game, my team had a runner on third and one out. The batter hit a fly ball to right field and the runner on third left way too early and crossed the plate. The umpire yelled out "No, you left too early, you have to go back!"

The opposing team's coach instructs his catcher to throw to third and the third baseman to tag the bag. Runner is out. The umpire states that the runner is safe at third and can't be called out on appeal play in this situation. I quietly inform the umpire that he is wrong, he should have kept his mouth shut and it was up to the other team to appeal. I let him know that the inning is over.

Later, the bottom of the sixth and last inning. The score is tied and and there is one out. My hitter singles and the next batter doubles. Second and third with one out. The next batter, the best hitter in the league, steps to the plate and the opposing coach instructs the pitcher to intentionally walk the hitter. The pitcher throws ball one. On the next pitch, the catcher, who was 12 years old at the oldest, failed to step back behind the plate for the delivery. He just stayed where he had caught the previous pitch. When the second ball comes in, the umpire declares that the runners are all awarded a base due to a catcher's balk. We win the emptiest victory in my brief coaching career.

Sure, we won the game. It was a correct call. We even got a little make up from the umpire after the boneheaded call earlier. But I really would have preferred the umpire simply tell the catcher "Hey, you have to stand right over here" and have the kids play out the game. I guess he felt like he had to show us all that he did know the rules.

[franklgl]

Fact is, you'll get umpires even all the way up to high school level who don't fully grasp the rules of baseball. But it is a tough job...at the LL level all you can do is try to make sure that everyone is learning something...even the umpires.

[SoxFanSince57]

Not much you can do to combat ignorance during the game. Your league commissioner needs to be apprised of the problem and given examples. I would talk with other coaches and try to get them to document problems and send their complaints to the commissioner. The league commissioner is usually the only one who has leverage/responsibility.

Carry a LL rule book and your league rules with you. When an ump f's up show him the rule. If the ump refuses to change his/her ruling on the field, say/do nothing more during the game. I suggest that you approach the ump after the game and simply explain your understanding of the rule. No need to get the ump to acknowledge it, just hope that he/she goes home and considers his/her ruling.

Edited by SoxFanSince57, 20 May 2008 - 05:09 PM.

[Fred not Lynn]

Carry a LL rule book and your league rules with you. When an ump f's up show him the rule. If the ump refuses to change his/her ruling on the field, say/do nothing more during the game.

Correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that in the unwritten rules of baseball, if you whip out a rule book and march out to chat with the umpire, you might as well drop a few "magic words" on him and keep marching to your car, becaue you're going to get tossed...even at the LL level.

I do agree with what you say about discussing after the game, though...and I guess if it is a clear misinterpretation of the rules, you could always play under protest if it's a big enough call.

[SoxFanSince57]

Correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that in the unwritten rules of baseball, if you whip out a rule book and march out to chat with the umpire, you might as well drop a few "magic words" on him and keep marching to your car, becaue you're going to get tossed...even at the LL level.

You are right. My bad. Way too confrontational and unintentionally dickish on my part. While it may be no big thing in some communities, it would probably be a bad move in most. I stand corrected.

Best to refer the LL rule book post game.

[Winger 03]

Excellent comments, this is a good thread.

While getting an umpire to change his mind is pretty tough, rationally explaining your side to him after the game is a great method.

Face it, you can either help him improve or see him botch games of yours again later in the season.

[Fred not Lynn]

First the umpire came up with some imaginary rule. We all know the slide or avoid contact rule. Last night we had a wild pitch, the runner from third scores easily, no contact at home plate, and the pitcher never even got all the way to the plate, although he was close. The umpire calls the runner out. Umpire claims rule is runner must slide into home plate or he is out. Said he called his supervisor who told him he was out, just baffling

Later in the game the umpire called a batter out for throwing the bat. Not a rule. I have seen some umpired warn kids, threaten kids, but it isn't a rule.

These are both called regularly in my son's league. "Slide or avoid contact" more or less translates into "You must slide if the play is close". Whether or not the play is close is ultimately a judgement call on the part of the umpire.

Normally the thrown bat elicits a warning to each team, and then an out if done by anyone subsequent to the warning. Last night, however, it was called without warning when the bat hit the catcher and shook him up.

[biollante]

I think you have to keep the rules with you. Argue your point. Show them the rules later.

Appeal to another umpire - if possible. Last week at my son's game an appeal was made to the home plate ump because the field ump had missed an easy call. Home ump. overruled him. (I honestly don't know if that is legal but it worked.)

Fighting w/umps during the game really is a downer for everyone. I feel the kids get too hung up on bad calls and bad strike/ball calls. At a certain level, people have to play the game and stop beating up on umps (I know this isn't what your post is about but it is something that really bothers me about little league).

[Average Reds]

I think you have to keep the rules with you. Argue your point. Show them the rules later.

Appeal to another umpire - if possible. Last week at my son's game an appeal was made to the home plate ump because the field ump had missed an easy call. Home ump. overruled him. (I honestly don't know if that is legal but it worked.)

Fighting w/umps during the game really is a downer for everyone. I feel the kids get too hung up on bad calls and bad strike/ball calls. At a certain level, people have to play the game and stop beating up on umps (I know this isn't what your post is about but it is something that really bothers me about little league).

This is about right. I think you don't go out of your way to argue with an ump during a Little League game. You can question a decision and after the game you should make sure that you talk it over with them and correct them if they don't really know the rules. If that doesn't help, talk to the league supervisor, which from the description here may be where the problem lies in the first place.

There really isn't an excuse for umps consistently misapplying the rules or not knowing the correct call to make. As a coach you do have a responsibility to try and fix this so you can teach the kids the right way to play the game. At the same time, one of the things you should be teaching is that bad calls happen and you have to accept it and move on.

Edited by Average Reds, 21 May 2008 - 11:38 AM.

[BigMike]

These are both called regularly in my son's league. "Slide or avoid contact" more or less translates into "You must slide if the play is close". Whether or not the play is close is ultimately a judgement call on the part of the umpire.

Normally the thrown bat elicits a warning to each team, and then an out if done by anyone subsequent to the warning. Last night, however, it was called without warning when the bat hit the catcher and shook him up.

It may be called regularly Fred, but that doesn't mean it is called properly. The collision rule requires that the fielder have the ball AND be waiting to make a tag.

A Q?A with the Umpiring consultant for LL Baseball

http://www.littlelea...5febsession.asp

We have problems every year with the interpretation of the slide or avoid contact rule. Could you please give me an explanation that I can bring to both my coaches and umpires and tell them to live with your recommendation on how that rule should be implemented.
Andy:
The key to Rule 7.08 (a)(3) is that the fielder must have the ball AND must be waiting to make a tag. Advise your umpires, managers and coaches that if the defensive player has the ball AND is waiting to make the tag, the offensive player must slide or ATTEMPT to get around the fielder.

And in terms of throwing a bat, unless your league has special rules, there is Absolutely no provision in the rule that would allow the umpire the discretion to call a player out for throwing the bat. Unless perhaps if you make the argument that the batter interferred with the catchers ability to make a play by throwing the bat

How do you handle or what can be done when a batter throws the bat after a hit, striking another player with the thrown bat? I would assume that if done

intentionally, it would be unsportsmanlike conduct, but what about the player who just does it as a reflex action?
Andy:
I’d talk to that player’s manager about it, so the player can be instructed. If it keeps happening, the manager should take the player out of the lineup. There is no rule that allows an umpire to call a batter out for throwing the bat, under any circumstances (even if intentional).

[SoxFanSince57]

I understand from LL Online (Andy) that "there is no rule that allows an umpire to call a batter out for throwing the bat, under any circumstances (even if intentional)".

As stated in earlier posts, plenty of leagues have "house rules" about unintentionally throwing the bat. If that is a concern the league could try to get a LL waiver for a rule (throw it once and you are warned and throw it again and you are out) or the league could just set the rule and "ignore" the waiver (sorry LL).

I don't have a rule book anymore, but I read on another "ask the umpire-type site" that under rule 9.01 © umpires may rule on any situation that is not specifically found in the rules. I don't know if this is correct or bogus.

[PaulinMyrBch]

FWIW, in my dealings with shitty umpires I do all I can to make sure to thank them and treat them great off the field. It may not pay off that night but it may later, here's an few examples.

We've got a real inconsistent one in our league. It's 11-12, so the level of pitching is pretty good. His zone is consistent, his base calls are just horrible. Since I know he won't want to look bad, I never question the call he makes, even if its horrible.

But last week he's working the infield with a runner on second. Linedrive to center over the CF's head, hits a sign on the fence and goes through or under the fence. He signals HR after the runner never stopped at second. I call TO and as I walk by him, I ask "Did you have that ball going over the fence, I couldn't tell?" and he responds, "I never saw what it did." I check with some parents on the fence who inform me it didn't go over and I tell him. In private, he says let me get with the HP ump and make a call. Nice and quiet and simple, and he puts the runner back at second. Had I come screaming out of the dugout, no way he reverses that.

Later in the same game, he misses a play at first by a full step, calls my runner out. After the inning he tells my first base coach to appeal it next time, that he got it wrong but wanted someone else to get him off the hook. Like I'm going to appeal to home on a bang/bang at first, but next time I will if he gives me the look.

But either way, I've found over the years if you treat them human off the field before and after the game, they are much more receptive to a polite questioning of their call during the game. Occasionally it works in your favor. I try to do it by calling timeout and approaching him calmly. Most often it doesn't matter, but they get enough assholes, someone treating them humanly gets noticed.

Edited by PaulinMyrBch, 21 May 2008 - 10:50 PM.

[leithbones]

FWIW, in my dealings with shitty umpires I do all I can to make sure to thank them and treat them great off the field.
But either way, I've found over the years if you treat them human off the field before and after the game, they are much more receptive to a polite questioning of their call during the game. Occasionally it works in your favor. I try to do it by calling timeout and approaching him calmly. Most often it doesn't matter, but they get enough assholes, someone treating them humanly gets noticed.

Excellent post.
It works in reverse also. As a golf Rules Official (mostly sectional PGA & USGA events, some PGA/Nationwide Tour stuff), the time I make getting to know players outside the ropes before&after events is invaluable. It reduces tension when 'situations' arise, and promotes a less adversarial atmosphere between player and Official. Like any cross-section of people, some competitors have no desire to interact with those they view as potentially costing them strokes=money.
I must admit that your post made me reflect on whether any of my decisions have been swayed by the demeanor of a player involved. Because there is no "bang-bang" in golf officiating, the only way to get one wrong is through a bad interpretation or lack of knowledge. Both are probably harder to acknowledge than missing a split second call. For the most part, good officials are able to suppress ego and consult colleagues.
As far as confronting an official with a Rules Book (which has happened to me) I'm perfectly OK with it; I always ask the competitor "Do you want to do that now, or after the round?" If you KNOW YOUR STUFF - which was the underlying problem with the umps in your thread- you welcome the challenge. Most players are remarkably ignorant of the Rules of Golf beyond the most elementary fundamentals.
Your key point, The Golden Rule, somehow loses its luster when coaches, umps, and parents convene on youth sports.

[Average Reds]

Excellent post.
It works in reverse also. As a golf Rules Official (mostly sectional PGA & USGA events, some PGA/Nationwide Tour stuff), the time I make getting to know players outside the ropes before&after events is invaluable. It reduces tension when 'situations' arise, and promotes a less adversarial atmosphere between player and Official. Like any cross-section of people, some competitors have no desire to interact with those they view as potentially costing them strokes=money.
I must admit that your post made me reflect on whether any of my decisions have been swayed by the demeanor of a player involved. Because there is no "bang-bang" in golf officiating, the only way to get one wrong is through a bad interpretation or lack of knowledge. Both are probably harder to acknowledge than missing a split second call. For the most part, good officials are able to suppress ego and consult colleagues.
As far as confronting an official with a Rules Book (which has happened to me) I'm perfectly OK with it; I always ask the competitor "Do you want to do that now, or after the round?" If you KNOW YOUR STUFF - which was the underlying problem with the umps in your thread- you welcome the challenge. Most players are remarkably ignorant of the Rules of Golf beyond the most elementary fundamentals.
Your key point, The Golden Rule, somehow loses its luster when coaches, umps, and parents convene on youth sports.

I hear what you are saying, but the comparison isn't a close one.

The rules of golf are so arcane that most of the professional competitors don't really know them in minute detail. And outside of situations where there are tournament officials on the course, most golfers are encouraged to have a rule book with them and to consult it to handle any dispute. (As you pointed out - most professional golfers have a rule book with them in any case.) Given the complexity and precision of the rules, it's hard for me to imagine that personal bias can enter into any rules decision because there is so little discretion in how the rules are applied.

Umping a LL game is about as far from this as you can get. The rules are different than "normal" baseball rules and the umps are often unclear about the specific nature of these rules and how to use the vast discretion they have at their disposal. And many times, the umps themselves are kids rather than adults who know how to handle themselves.

Given this, personal bias will enter into how the ump calls a LL game with distressing regularity. It may be an unconscious bias, but umps will bend over backwards to give the benefit of the doubt to coaches who they perceive as treating them with respect. And if the ump is a newbie who really doesn't know the rules well, he/she might even bend over backwards to give the benefit of the doubt to a coach who is trying to help them become a better ump but doing so in a respectful manner.

Where the line is blurred and it becomes difficult to know how to handle the situation is when you have an ump who is combines incompetance with arrogance and/or a sense of entitlement. Problems with this ump should be handled at the league supervisor level, because they can't be fixed on a one-to-one basis.

[Fred not Lynn]

I don't mind an umpire who makes mistakes, especially on judegment calls. You pretty much have to expect that, especially given that the umpires are usually only a few years oder than the players...I don't expect the kids to play error-free baseball (well, they think I do, but I don't), so it would be pretty arrogant to expect "error free" umping - especially in a two-man system where they just CAN'T see everything.

So anyway, I have this question as to the etiquette of arguing/discussing with umpires; When one coach approaches the umpire to discuss a call, should the coach from the other team go be part of the discussion if he wants, or should he give the first coach space/privacy and then go have his audience with the umpire after?

And to BigMike's comments on the bat throw and slide at the plate rules - those are commonly called in my kid's league because of specifically communicated local regulation, not because that's the particular umpire's interpretation of the offical LL rule book.

[Purpose Pitch]

Every coach at every level should have the UIC's phone number. I have called our local UIC when an umpire is not following the rules. Umpires may not listen to coaches in the heat of battle, but they all have to answer to their UIC. If they don't know the rules, and the UIC is notified.....they have to either learn the rules or they don't get games any longer.

[Rice4HOF]

Carry a LL rule book and your league rules with you. When an ump f's up show him the rule. If the ump refuses to change his/her ruling on the field, say/do nothing more during the game. I suggest that you approach the ump after the game and simply explain your understanding of the rule. No need to get the ump to acknowledge it, just hope that he/she goes home and considers his/her ruling.

I ump AND coach. Was an umpire-in-chief for a local little league, and have coached up to U16 travel teams.

As an ump, if someone EVER brought a rule book out in view of anyone else other than myself (i.e. fans, players) it is an automatic ejection.

As a coach, I've been in the situation where I've wanted to pull out the book and show the ump that he is wrong, but know that I can't get away with it that easily. The way I've approached it is I'll go and tell him in a very polite, soft-spoken manner what I think the rule might be, and give him a chance to save face. If he doesn't change the ruling, I then tell him more forcefully that I am certain of the rule, quote the number (which I've looked up in the dugout before coming out) and advise him that I'm playing the game under protest. Usually when you quote a rule number it sounds authorative enough that the ump starts to believe you might know what you're talking about. And the paperwork that playing a game under protest involves is something all umpires want to avoid. (just ask Tim McClelland). At this point they will usually start to back-pedal and say they may need to check with the other ump and will often admit that if they had a rule book on them they'd just look it up. I then offer the fact that I have one in my dugout if they would like to see it. I have done this 3 times that I can remember. Twice the ump changed his ruling and agreed with me, WITHOUT looking at the book, and the other time he actually came to our dugout, read the book, and very reluctantly changed his call. We had no close plays called our way the rest of that game.

Also, as far as calling a batter out for throwing his bat, and other "made-up" rules, I always relied on an umpire's favorite rule, 9.01©. (It's the only rule number I've memorized.) I can't quote what it says, but it's something along the lines of the ump can make whatever call he wants if something happens that isn't specifically covered in a rule book. I have used this rule to throw a player out of the game when he threw his bat after being warned twice previously. Note that he had hit the ball, and I called him safe at first, but then proceeded to eject him from the game. (He threw the bat behind him, and hit me squarely between the legs). I also had an interesting situation as a base ump. A deaf boy (about 11 years old) was on first base, and stole second safely. The second baseman motioned to him to go back to first because the ball had been hit foul. While he was going back to first, the pitcher threw the ball to the second baseman who tagged him for an apparent out. I claimed time had been called and told the boy to go back to 2nd. The defensive manager came out of the dugout yelling, and asking who had called time. I told him I did - gave him some BS about getting dirt in my eye and whispering "time" while I was trying to clear it. Yes, what I did wasn't according to the rules. By the book I should have called the runner out, but then I had the freedom to eject all the players who participated in the play and their coaches for allowing them to do that.

If they don't know the rules, and the UIC is notified.....they have to either learn the rules or they don't get games any longer.

This works great in theory, if you have more umpires than games. If you're in the situation where you are desperate for umpires, you can't afford to be that choosy. I know in our local area we have a real hard time finding umpires for all the games, and are usually just happy to have someone show up.

[Varitekstheman]

As an ump, if someone EVER brought a rule book out in view of anyone else other than myself (i.e. fans, players) it is an automatic ejection.

Wow. I have to say I am pretty surprised. I have absolutely brought the rulebook out to the umpire. Now I wasn't ranting and raving about it. I had to make an unusual substitution due to injury. Softball has some intricate substitution rules and I had never actually had to use the one I needed to use. I thought I could do it, but I asked they umpire before I did it just to make sure. He said I couldn't do it. I went into the dugout and read the rulebook that backed up what I wanted to do. I went back out with the book and simply asked him to explain the passage in the rule book to me. He read it, said "you're right, looks like you can---sorry, I was quoting an ASA rule."

I don't think I showed the guy up at all. I didn't yell or scream or throw the book in the guy's face. I asked him to explain his interpretation. I would lose a lot of respect for an umpire if they were unwilling to explain themselves.

[franklgl]

Wow. I have to say I am pretty surprised. I have absolutely brought the rulebook out to the umpire. Now I wasn't ranting and raving about it. I had to make an unusual substitution due to injury. Softball has some intricate substitution rules and I had never actually had to use the one I needed to use. I thought I could do it, but I asked they umpire before I did it just to make sure. He said I couldn't do it. I went into the dugout and read the rulebook that backed up what I wanted to do. I went back out with the book and simply asked him to explain the passage in the rule book to me. He read it, said "you're right, looks like you can---sorry, I was quoting an ASA rule."

I don't think I showed the guy up at all. I didn't yell or scream or throw the book in the guy's face. I asked him to explain his interpretation. I would lose a lot of respect for an umpire if they were unwilling to explain themselves.

This sounds pretty different from a heat-of-the-moment fit where you're waving the book in his face. That's the kind of thing that would probably get you ejected. I think as long as you're civil about it, especially at the LL level, you can get away with showing an ump a rule book. Although I would definitely use the approach that Rice4HOF mentioned, where you can just casually note that you have a rule book if he'd like to check it out.

[Rice4HOF]

To clarify, as an ump I don't mind if the coach says he's sure of the rule and it's in the book that s/he has in his back pocket if I want to look at it. But if s/he comes out with it in his hand, then I might assume s/he's trying to show all the fans I don't know the rules and is tryng to show me up.
Now, this obviously depends on my previous relationship with the coach if any. If it's just a parent volunteer coach and he/she is bringing the rulebook out to ask me what something means, thent I'm happy to explain it to him/her.

[Purpose Pitch]

The bottom line is: the way you approach an umpire is extremely important in any dispute. The point about potentially showing Blue up is a good one. Once he/she feels that you are doing that, you're done.

If you are respectful and calm, they usually do want to get it right.

I am slowly learning this.

[smastroyin]

A deaf boy (about 11 years old) was on first base, and stole second safely. The second baseman motioned to him to go back to first because the ball had been hit foul. While he was going back to first, the pitcher threw the ball to the second baseman who tagged him for an apparent out. I claimed time had been called and told the boy to go back to 2nd. The defensive manager came out of the dugout yelling, and asking who had called time. I told him I did - gave him some BS about getting dirt in my eye and whispering "time" while I was trying to clear it. Yes, what I did wasn't according to the rules. By the book I should have called the runner out, but then I had the freedom to eject all the players who participated in the play and their coaches for allowing them to do that.

Whoa whoa whoa waitaminute.

In a game with 11 year olds, a second baseman was instructed to try and fool a deaf kid into thinking a play had happened just to gain some competitive edge?

Am I reading this right?

I hate people.

[franklgl]

I didn't read that the 2nd baseman was instructed to do that. But that is still a dick move. Were I umping, not only would I keep the kid at 2nd base, I would have a word with the opposing coach about sportsmanship between innings. Ditto if I were the deaf kid's coach.

[Sooner Steve]

As a fifteen plus year veteran umpire I will tell you there's not much you can do about a bad blue other than talk to the field supervior, commissioner or district umpire in charge. However, you'd better have specifics about exactly what was done or not done, otherwise you come off as just another disgruntled fan or coach.

They're no fun to call w/either by the way.

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

I've never umped or coached little league. But I can say that one of the stronger memories of my childhood is my dad, in his brief stint as coach, getting not just tossed out of a game but actually banned for life from our town's little league for arguing calls and fighting with other coaches. When you're eleven, its kind of embarrassing to see your dad lose his shit and get tossed like that.

[BigMike]

I didn't read that the 2nd baseman was instructed to do that. But that is still a dick move. Were I umping, not only would I keep the kid at 2nd base, I would have a word with the opposing coach about sportsmanship between innings. Ditto if I were the deaf kid's coach.

I had a 9 year old do this to a 12 year old last week. There was no out on the play. Just a bunch of people stunned as my pitcher started to throw the next pitch and all of a sudden the 12 year old who had just stolen second starts jogging back to 1B with his helmet off. Apparently the 9 year old told him it was a foul tip. I had no idea what had happened until he came back to the bench bragging about it.

My favorite dunce umpire was working that game, and he ripped the baserunner a new one, he called timeout, called the kid an idiot and said he must have forgotten to take his medication.

Sad part is we use an external service, so I have no one to complain to other than the head of the service I guess. When we had the problems in the previous game I sent around the rules to all coaches to make sure at least they knew. Anyway, when the dunce umpire showed up for that game it was the first time I had seen him since he butchered so many calls. He comes up to me before the game, says that he checked out ther rules and researched them, and that he was right all players must slide at home plate no matter what.

I just smiled. There really is nothing left to do but that. (of course the fact that my team was up 19-1 by the second inning that night make idiot umpired easier to deal with)

[Fred not Lynn]

I had a 9 year old do this to a 12 year old last week. There was no out on the play. Just a bunch of people stunned as my pitcher started to throw the next pitch and all of a sudden the 12 year old who had just stolen second starts jogging back to 1B with his helmet off. Apparently the 9 year old told him it was a foul tip. I had no idea what had happened until he came back to the bench bragging about it.

I presume you told him that that's not how the game is played and introduced him to Mr. Bench (not Johnny) for at least an inning or two - because that's what I would have done.

He comes up to me before the game, says that he checked out ther rules and researched them, and that he was right all players must slide at home plate no matter what.

I just smiled. There really is nothing left to do but that.

Well, there is one more thing to do; Make sure your runners slide at home plate whenever that guy is your umpire.

[cleanfloor]

Umpire claims rule is runner must slide into home plate or he is out. Said he called his supervisor who told him he was out, just baffling

FWIW, this was the rule when I played rec league (we didn't have Little League) in belchertown in the early/mid 90s.

[smastroyin]

There is a difference between poor sportsmanship like what BigMike's kid did. The runner should be paying attention and has plenty of cues.

When you are talking about a deaf kid, who doesn't hear what the umpire is saying, etc., then to me that's an entire new level of suck.

[Average Reds]

I had a 9 year old do this to a 12 year old last week. There was no out on the play. Just a bunch of people stunned as my pitcher started to throw the next pitch and all of a sudden the 12 year old who had just stolen second starts jogging back to 1B with his helmet off. Apparently the 9 year old told him it was a foul tip. I had no idea what had happened until he came back to the bench bragging about it.

My favorite dunce umpire was working that game, and he ripped the baserunner a new one, he called timeout, called the kid an idiot and said he must have forgotten to take his medication.

There is a difference between poor sportsmanship like what BigMike's kid did. The runner should be paying attention and has plenty of cues.

When you are talking about a deaf kid, who doesn't hear what the umpire is saying, etc., then to me that's an entire new level of suck.

I agree with your point about sportsmanship smas, but there is no excuse - none, not ever - for an ump to call timeout in that situation and ream out the baserunner for making this mistake. If anyone is to correct/instruct the kid about paying more attention to what is going on in the game, it's his coach.

The only job of an ump is to apply the rules in a neutral fashion. For him to think that it's his place to stop the game, chew a baserunner out for being stupid and belittle the kid in front of everyone is ... just breathtaking. Honestly, if what BigMike describes here isn't exaggerated, I'm not sure I would be able to maintain my composure with the ump.

[Fred not Lynn]

There is a difference between poor sportsmanship like what BigMike's kid did. The runner should be paying attention and has plenty of cues.

When you are talking about a deaf kid, who doesn't hear what the umpire is saying, etc., then to me that's an entire new level of suck.

I agree that taking advantage of a deaf kid elevates it to a whole other level, but what Big Mike's kid did was bush too. I wouldn't tolerate any kid on MY team doing it.

[LoweTek]

I agree that taking advantage of a deaf kid elevates it to a whole other level, but what Big Mike's kid did was bush too. I wouldn't tolerate any kid on MY team doing it.

If I were the umpire and had witnessed the able bodied player intentionally deceive a known deaf player the way Rice described I would immediately eject him. If the coach came out I would simply say, "Your player knowingly and intentionally deceived the deaf boy attempting to take advantage of his disability and I saw him do it. You will be ejected as well if you do not turn around and return to your dugout immediately." Another word, and he'd be gone too.

FnL, I don't think big Mike said it was his kid that pulled the similar move... and in his case it was two able players.

If either of these able kids was on a team I was coaching, they would be sitting the rest of that one and another one and the parents would get a call explaining exactly why. The rest of the team would be told exactly why they were benched and suspended a game also. If they were not my players and the deaf kid was, the umpires did not act and I had any inkling the opposing coach encouraged or perpetrated the behavior, I'd report the coach and possibly the umpires (after my polite, respectful discussion with them) to the league president and/or UIC and expect them to be sanctioned if not banned, especially the coach.

The behavior with the deaf player is unthinkably poor sportmanship. For a coach to encourage it in 12 year olds means only he has no business coaching. For a 12 year old to do it means he needs coaching, badly.

[tonyandpals]

I agree w/ Lowetek 100%

But I'll add this to further the discussion:

When does this become the responsibility of the player to know the situation? Obviously in the bigs if the SS tells you foul ball, you wait to hear it from an ump before doing anything or you'd be crazy. So when does it become okay to try this? High School?

Edited by tonyandpals, 11 June 2008 - 01:50 PM.

[Fred not Lynn]

FnL, I don't think big Mike said it was his kid that pulled the similar move... and in his case it was two able players.

If I read it right, in BigMike's case, the able bodied 9 year old on his team verbally decieved an able bodied 12 year old on the other team - and then came back to the bench bragging about it.

If I'm BigMike, coaching the deciever, I tell him it's not the right way to play the game and give him a little bench time. If I'm the other coach, I tell my guy that that isn't the right way to play the game, but that you're going to come across people who play it that way anyway - so be ready for them.

If I'm the coach of the kid who decieved the deaf kid, I tell him that's not the way to play the game or live your life and give him a LOT of bench time and a chat with his parents. If I'm the coach of the deaf kid, I guess I tell him the same thing about it not being the right way to play, but some assholes play that way anyway - so be mindful that they exist.

[LoweTek]

I agree w/ Lowetek 100%

But I'll add this to further the discussion:

When does this become the responsibility of the player to know the situation? Obviously in the bigs if the SS tells you foul ball, you wait to hear it from an ump before doing anything or you'd be crazy. So when does it become okay to try this? High School?

To try to deceive the baserunner into leaving a base by telling him it was a foul ball? I wouldn't condone it as a coach at any level. At high school level or above however, the baserunner should know better.

Maybe it makes me old fashioned or even a fool, but I wouldn't condone verbal deception at any level. If it happened against a team I coached, depending on the game situation, I would condone a brushback or message pitch to the perpetrator. If one of my guys did it, I wouldn't respond to the brushback/message he is sure to get.

As a player, I'd never do it.

Edited by LoweTek, 11 June 2008 - 04:13 PM.

[LoweTek]

If I read it right, in BigMike's case, the able bodied 9 year old on his team verbally decieved an able bodied 12 year old on the other team - and then came back to the bench bragging about it.

If I'm BigMike, coaching the deciever, I tell him it's not the right way to play the game and give him a little bench time. If I'm the other coach, I tell my guy that that isn't the right way to play the game, but that you're going to come across people who play it that way anyway - so be ready for them.

If I'm the coach of the kid who decieved the deaf kid, I tell him that's not the way to play the game or live your life and give him a LOT of bench time and a chat with his parents. If I'm the coach of the deaf kid, I guess I tell him the same thing about it not being the right way to play, but some assholes play that way anyway - so be mindful that they exist.

I meant to say it wasn't Big Mike's son who did the deed (as I read it). I might give the able-able situation a little less bench time too.

[Fred not Lynn]

Maybe it makes me old fashioned or even a fool, but I wouldn't condone verbal deception at any level. If it happened against a team I coached, depending on the game situation, I would condone a brushback or message pitch to the perpetrator. If one of my guys did it, I wouldn't respond to the brushback/message he is sure to get.

I was going to add that once you reach a certain level, a coach won't have to say anything - the other team will take care of it in the batters box. However, at 12, I don't think ANY action calls for that sort of retaliation. Honestly, I don't know what age it IS appropriate, and I'm hardly going to start the "How old should a kid be before intentionally throwing at batters?" thread in here to find out.

[BigMike]

If I read it right, in BigMike's case, the able bodied 9 year old on his team verbally decieved an able bodied 12 year old on the other team - and then came back to the bench bragging about it.

If I'm BigMike, coaching the deciever, I tell him it's not the right way to play the game and give him a little bench time. If I'm the other coach, I tell my guy that that isn't the right way to play the game, but that you're going to come across people who play it that way anyway - so be ready for them.

Right in my case it was a 9 year old rookie on our team who did it to a 12 year old who has been in the majors for 4 years. And it wasn't even to get an out, he just did it to be a clown, becuase there was no ball, no tag to happen, and everyone on the field was just standing there wondering wtf was going on.

It also happened with 2 outs in the last inning of a 23-6 game. So there was no real punishment to hand out, as the game was over before anyone knew what happened.

I didn't come down on the kid as hard as maybe some would like, I just shook my head and said, don't do that, that's not right. It's Tough to be a to much of a disciplinarian when you only have a 9 man roster.

[LoweTek]

I was going to add that once you reach a certain level, a coach won't have to say anything - the other team will take care of it in the batters box. However, at 12, I don't think ANY action calls for that sort of retaliation. Honestly, I don't know what age it IS appropriate, and I'm hardly going to start the "How old should a kid be before intentionally throwing at batters?" thread in here to find out.

Agree, no retaliation at 12. I was thinking HS or above. And not "throwing at," just message sending. I wouldn't advocate drilling the guy in the head or something. Well, maybe the guy who did it to the deaf player... if they were older. I kid, I kid.

On topic, another experience. I assistant coach BR 16-18. In a game a couple of weeks ago, runners 1st and 2nd, two out. Our pitcher, leaning in for a sign, steps off the rubber and goes to his mouth, licking his fingertips. HP umpire calls a balk and runners advance. One of our other coaches goes nuts. At the end of the inning (neither runner scored), he can't find the rulebook and instead calls his wife, gets her on Google and has her look it up. Rule indicates it is a ball and not a balk and he approaches the HP umpire. HP umpire insists it is the right call. My coach is all over this for some reason (the umpire was pretty arrogant about it). I tell the coach no harm done since the runners didn't score, don't worry about it.

He finds a rulebook somewhere and again goes out to the ump. He is now on a mission. Ump is further annoyed, more arrogant, does not acknowledge his mistake. Coach returns to the dugout muttering so the blue can hear. After a while he starts jawing again. They yell at each other a few times and the coach gets ejected. He yells back at the ump and the ump yells back at him the whole time he is walking toward the parking lot.

Neither behavior was appropriate but IMO an umpire is best positioned to stabilize such a situation. Only his refusal to admit he was mistaken and his own arrogance about it led to the escalation, embarrassing for both of them. The problem with many umpires is not that they make the occasional mis-call, but they handle it poorly. Oftentimes even when approached respectfully. In this case, the first approach wasn't really respectful but it wasn't all that bad either. The rule is clear and it's not a balk.

[smastroyin]

When I said BigMike's kid I just meant a kid on BigMike's team, not his actual son. Poor wording on my part.

I'm still flabbergasted at the treatment of the deaf kid, though in my days of coaching I did see worse.

[WalletTrack]

This isn't really about dealing with umps who don't know the rules, correct?
It's about how to deal with umps in youth leagues in general.
Most higher level(Babe Ruth, High School etc.) umps in my experience have a good grasp on the rules. The only problem is when they apply them "incorrectly" against your kids.

We did had an issue with high schoolers calling boys baseball and girls youth softball leagues. The few older men and women umpires had to cover a lot of teams on a lot of nights. The kids did the best they could but it's hard dealing with parents, coaches and managing the flow of the game. So patience was required and it was understood that things would be handled at a league admin level education-wise.
Coaches understood they weren't "Sparky Anderson" or "Earl Weaver" nor the umps "Nestor Shylack" or "Joe West".
Wasn't perfect but by the time playoffs were underway we had more experienced folks.

Dealing with an egregious error:
1. Approach the ump chin slighty up with a smile, palms facing downward making a settle down motion, asking for his help in explaining the rule.
2. Never point, rather gesture with open palm at the person or base.
3. Listen respectfully. Make your point and leave. Always leave first it's the only point of control you have.
4. Heading back to the dugout make eye contact one of the moms in the concession stand, shrug and wink.
First three rules will get you future calls in your favor.
The last, free food for sticking up for the kids.
Win, win.

[franklgl]

I didn't come down on the kid as hard as maybe some would like, I just shook my head and said, don't do that, that's not right. It's Tough to be a to much of a disciplinarian when you only have a 9 man roster.

Seems fine enough to me. A simple explanation that that's not how you play the game is fine.

As for when the baserunner should be held responsible...I'd say about the time when you stop playing everyone because you have to be nice. So for me, that would have been Pony League. Do they have Pony League everywhere? Anyway, age 13 or so.

But as mentioned, bush tactics should not be tolerated at any level.

[Hawk'sGoodKnees]

This isn't necessarily about an umpire not knowing the rules...but more of a rant and perhaps hoping for a clarification on a rule.

I coach a 13-14 year old team in the local city league. I do the best I can to teach our players the rules, but it's difficult when the umpires themselves don't enforce them. We have a left handed pitcher who has made, on several occasions a move to first without throwing the ball. He doesn't step off. He toes the rubber, raises his right leg, steps toward first and fakes a throw. I've told him over and over again to make the throw; that it's a balk if he doesn't. It hasn't been called on him so he continues to do it.

Same team, same league, same season...

Last night, the umpire called our first baseman for a balk for having a foot in foul territory as the pitch was made. I can't defend the reason for why our first baseman was positioned where he was, but to me, this seems like a petty call to make when blatant infractions are not penalized.

The rule:

4.03 When the ball is put in play at the start of, or during a game, all fielders other than the catcher shall be on fair territory.

(a) The catcher shall station himself directly back of the plate. He may leave his position at any time to catch a pitch or make a play except that when the batter is being given an intentional base on balls, the catcher must stand with both feet within the lines of the catcher's box until the ball leaves the pitcher's hand.

PENALTY: Balk.

I understand the penalty to only be when the catcher is not in the catcher's box, and not for a player to be in foul territory. I will not post all of the actions that determine a balk under rule 8.05, but other than the catcher's box rule, there is no reference to any other type of "fielder's balk." Has anybody else ever seen this called before? Am I missing something or interpreting the rule incorrectly?

[franklgl]

The fact that your lefty has never been called for faking a throw to first is astonishing to me. Has an ump at least issued a warning or said anything about it? Do the opposing teams say anything?

As for the fielder in fould territory...I've never seen a balk issued because of this. However, according to the rule you posted, I'd say the correct call was made.

4.03 When the ball is put in play at the start of, or during a game, all fielders other than the catcher shall be on fair territory.

The bolded part seems to clear it up as much as possible.

[LoweTek]

In the case of your first scenario, I am surprised opposing managers don't deal with it. They are apparently less concerned about the rule than you.

The second scenario is clear, all players except the catcher are to be in fair territory. It further clarifies the catcher's role on an IBB. This doesn't change the first sentence. I really don't understand why you see ambiguity in the rule. I have seen the call before. It usually happens when there is a base stealing threat aboard, there are a lot of throws over and the 1B is noticed with a foot in foul territory. However, a couple of weeks ago we had an opposing first baseman doing a thing I have never seen before.

Remember, this is 16-18. A lot of these kids have significant skills but usually due to attitude or personality problems, sometimes academics, they are not on their high school team's JV or varsity roster. Many are not happy about it. This kid was over the top though. For the first time as a coach, I razzed a kid on the other team.

It was the last game of the season and we were batting and ahead by six or eight runs. The game was in the later innings and admittedly dragging a bit. The opposing 1B was apparently bored and as the inning started he began to chat with the 1B umpire and our 1B coach. He was standing in the 1B coaches box chatting when the first pitch was thrown. From our 1B dugout, I told him to get on the field and get in position. The conversation broke up after another pitch. The 1B umpire did not act to correct him. First batter, not a stealing threat, walks. So their 1B decides not to hold him on but instead to stand directly in front of our runner as he took his lead, moving along with him, in front of him for his secondary as well, all obviously intentionally while laughing back at his dugout and taunting our guy. A few interference catcalls started from the dugout and the umpire shook his head. I reminded my runner he had the right to that basepath and to be careful not to step on his ankles. "Careful not to spike his achilles," I told him. The 1B backed off a bit but still made intentional effort to block the runner's view of the plate. Pitch gets away from the catcher and our runner advances to 2B. Field ump moves to 2B position and the 1B resumes his conversation in the coaches box for a few pitches. No call was made.

After the inning, I had a conversation with the HP umpire, a known stickler for "respect the game first." It didn't happen again.

[Hawk'sGoodKnees]

The fact that your lefty has never been called for faking a throw to first is astonishing to me. Has an ump at least issued a warning or said anything about it? Do the opposing teams say anything?

No warning and no complaint from any managers...and I guess that's what bothers me so much about the balk call on our first baseman. And I apologize for not fully explaining my question with the actual ruling.

Here is rule 4.03 in it's entirety.

4.03 When the ball is put in play at the start of, or during a game, all fielders other than the catcher shall be on fair territory.

(a) The catcher shall station himself directly back of the plate. He may leave his position at any time to catch a pitch or make a play except that when the batter is being given an intentional base on balls, the catcher must stand with both feet within the lines of the catcher's box until the ball leaves the pitcher's hand.

PENALTY: Balk.

(b) The pitcher, while in the act of delivering the ball to the batter, shall take his legal position;

© Except the pitcher and the catcher, any fielder may station himself anywhere in fair territory;

(d) Except the batter, or a runner attempting to score, no offensive player shall cross the catcher's lines when the ball is in play.

As I read that, the penalty is ONLY for an infraction to rule 4.03 (a), and not 4.03 in general. My belief is also further supported by the fact that the penalty for rule 4.03 (a) is covered under the balk penalty 8.05 (l):

8.05 If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when-

(l) The pitcher, while giving an intentional base on balls, pitches when the catcher is not in the catcher's box;

There is no reference, under rule 8.05, to a balk being called when 8 players aren't in fair territory when the pitch is delivered.

It usually happens when there is a base stealing threat aboard, there are a lot of throws over and the 1B is noticed with a foot in foul territory.

With a first baseman straddling the bag, in most cases his foot would be on the foul line, which in fact is in fair territory. I'm not saying this is what my first baseman was doing...but I'm grasping at straws.

Edited by Hawk'sGoodKnees, 17 June 2008 - 05:35 PM.

[Ymmot]

This isn't necessarily about an umpire not knowing the rules...but more of a rant and perhaps hoping for a clarification on a rule.

I coach a 13-14 year old team in the local city league. I do the best I can to teach our players the rules, but it's difficult when the umpires themselves don't enforce them. We have a left handed pitcher who has made, on several occasions a move to first without throwing the ball. He doesn't step off. He toes the rubber, raises his right leg, steps toward first and fakes a throw. I've told him over and over again to make the throw; that it's a balk if he doesn't. It hasn't been called on him so he continues to do it.

I would guess they don't call the balk because when there is a righty pitcher he is allowed to fake to third, and lefty pitchers are allowed to fake to first and then throw to third, so the umpires and other coaches just assume that lefty pitchers are allowed to fake to first with out making any throw. Your pitcher probably won't want to stop faking to first until he gets called for the illegal move and you are proven correct, but as long as the other teams don't care it is probably not too big of a deal.

It does seem odd that your fielder would get called for a balk but not your pitcher when he balks,I can definitely understand why you would be upset for that situation, that would make me pretty mad also. I guess you'll just have to start making sure all of your players are in fair territory prior to the pitch so you don't get called for that again.

Edited by Ymmot, 17 June 2008 - 07:03 PM.

[franklgl]

...lefty pitchers are allowed to fake to first and then throw to third...

Is this true? I always thought a fake throw to first was illegal under any circumstances, and I have not been able to find a rule that says otherwise. I'm pretty sure that a fake throw to first, whether the base is occupied or not, and regardless of whether the pitcher then throws to another base, is always a balk.