15 replies to this topic

[tims4wins]

"Well, he's a young player, he needs to get out there," Francona said. "It happens to veteran players, too. Sometimes a guy like an Ellsbury, Coco [Crisp]kind of did it yesterday, we can still win when you're not 100 percent. Sometimes you go out and you take an 0-fer for the team and we can still win. I'm not pointing a finger at Ellsbury because I think he's a pretty tough kid. I guess my point is you're not always going to be 100 percent. I don't know that we can wait for guys always to be 100 percent or we won't ever be able to field a team."

Ellsbury was back in the lineup last night playing center and batting in the leadoff spot after missing three games. He had thought he would be fine after Monday's offday, but was not ready to play in the series against the Blue Jays.

"We take the opportunity to talk to these guys because we have a number of younger guys," Francona said. "We don't want to just assume things. I think he thought all along on the offday he was going to be fine on Tuesday, and he wasn't. It just gives us a chance to talk to him and explain to him that every game we play here is a big deal. That's probably what's different in the minor leagues is that they're very protective, which they're supposed to, and we try to be protective. But at the same time we want guys to understand the responsibility that every game here is a really big deal."

What do people think of these post-game comments by Tito?
http://www.bostonher...l...&position=3

Maybe this is my Ellsbury love talking, but I really wish Francona hadn't said this. I don't see what purpose it serves except to cause the fanbase to question his toughness the next time he's out of the lineup. "I'm not pointing a finger at. . ." is one of those phrases like "No offense, but. . ." which pretty much guarantees that whatever follows is going to do just that. If it was a discussion that needed to be had, then fine, I'm glad they had it, but why let everyone know about it? It strikes me as a little bit of an odd thing for Tito to do.

I think this topic deserves it's own thread. In today's Globe, the Red Sox notes article has the same quote as above, and then this quote a few sections later:

J.D. Drew was back in the original lineup last night, Francona said, but then removed in later versions. Francona said Drew asked for one more day off to recover from tightness in his left quadriceps, though he said he could play if needed

These comments from Francona seem completely and 100% contradictory to me. The Sox as an organization seem to baby just about everyone, from Papelbon to Drew to Manny to Ortiz to Pedroia last year to their young pitchers and so on. I can't really understand why Tito chose to make these comments publicly, given how protective he has been in the past of his players with regard to the media. Not only that, it was only about 10 days ago that they held Crisp out of the lineup for about 10 days and didn't even put him on the DL because he was nursing some injuries.

Tito's comments seem hypocritical to me. I know someone said that the comments could be used to light a fire under Ellsbury, but I worry that they could be harmful, that Ellsbury could conceal injuries and hurt both himself and the team in the long run by playing hurt. Also, Tito's comment about every game being a "really big deal" seems contrary to his strategy in particular games (like the Sunday JV lineup).

Am I overreacting here?

Edited to add full Tito quote

Edited by tims4wins, 03 May 2008 - 11:16 AM.

[Harry Hooper]

Very odd, seems like a rare slip-up by Tito to say this stuff publicly. My guess is Tito feels bad because when Ellsbury said he couldn't go, Coco played when he really shouldn't have and hurt himself worse. Keep it in house, Tito.

[Ed Hillel]

Terry Francona is a smart man. With that said, it would not surprise me at all if he pulled Ellsbury aside and told him that he was going to make these comments to the media before he did. Why would he do that? To, in essence, call out JD Drew without using his name. I am not in that dugout, but it seems possible that calling out Drew directly could have had a negative impact for both the team and the clubhouse. Doing it this way may get the message to Drew without isolating the guy too much. Otherwise, I do not understand the point in calling out Ellsbury. Then again, as I said before, I am not a member of that clubhouse. Either way, Francona gets the benefit of the doubt from me, as he seems to have a pretty strong grasp on how to handle the team chemistry aspect of the game.

Edited by Ed Hillel, 03 May 2008 - 03:38 PM.

[Lollardfish]

Terry Francona is a smart man. With that said, it would not surprise me at all if he pulled Ellsbury aside and told him that he was going to make these comments to the media before he did. Why would he do that? To, in essence, call out JD Drew without using his name. I am not in that dugout, but it seems possible that calling out Drew directly could have had a negative impact for both the team and the clubhouse. Doing it this way may get the message to Drew without isolating the guy too much. Otherwise, I do not understand the point in calling out Ellsbury. Then again, as I said before, I am not a member of that clubhouse. Francona gets the benefit of the doubt from me, as he seems to have a pretty strong grasp on how to handle the team chemistry aspect of the game.

The idea that Tito is talking about Ellsbury in order to talk about Drew, in the absence of any actual evidence, is not the most likely hypothesis.

The most likely hypothesis is that he spoke to the media about Ellsbury because he wanted to send a message to Ellsbury. Now, one can debate whether or not that's a good idea, and it's definitely out of character, but there's no reason to think that anything else is going on.

[URI]

Terry Francona is a smart man. With that said, it would not surprise me at all if he pulled Ellsbury aside and told him that he was going to make these comments to the media before he did. Why would he do that? To, in essence, call out JD Drew without using his name.

That's a leap I'm not comfortable making.

It could have gone like this. Ellsbury said that he could go on Tuesday, after the day off. Francona on Tuesday talked to him, and Jacoby said "I thought I'd be 100%, but I need another day." Repeat on Wednesday and Thursday, and Tito finally said to him, "You don't need to be 100% at this level, because no one is."

Contrast that with the information we have on Drew, where Tito asked him and he said "I could play, but I'd like to give it one more day". Francona obliged.

It also could be as simple as him trusting a veteran, and not a rookie.

There could be 30 different scenarios that made Francona speak with fairly rare candor, but I wouldn't be so quick to say it's one way or the other.

[BCSoxFan]

That's a leap I'm not comfortable making.

It could have gone like this. Ellsbury said that he could go on Tuesday, after the day off. Francona on Tuesday talked to him, and Jacoby said "I thought I'd be 100%, but I need another day." Repeat on Wednesday and Thursday, and Tito finally said to him, "You don't need to be 100% at this level, because no one is."

Contrast that with the information we have on Drew, where Tito asked him and he said "I could play, but I'd like to give it one more day". Francona obliged.

It also could be as simple as him trusting a veteran, and not a rookie.

There could be 30 different scenarios that made Francona speak with fairly rare candor, but I wouldn't be so quick to say it's one way or the other.

This is a reasonable and sensible response.

That said, I'm with Ed. Too much of a coincidence with Drew and totally out of character for Tito. This needed to be said. And Drew would have to be crazy not to believe this was at least partially aimed at him.

[Lollardfish]

This is a reasonable and sensible response.

That said, I'm with Ed. Too much of a coincidence with Drew and totally out of character for Tito. This needed to be said. And Drew would have to be crazy not to believe this was at least partially aimed at him.

Why, other than the fact that fans tend not to like JD Drew and hence think he is soft, would you possibly think Tito is talking to Drew when talking about Ellsbury?

I know many folks here hate Drew.
I know many folks here love Ellsbury.

But there's no evidence that Tito sees the world through a fan's eyes.

Drew would have to be crazy to believe that anything said about Ellsbury has anything to do with Drew, unless it's "Ellsbury is much prettier than Drew" or some other direct comparison.

It is far more likely that Tito was speaking about Ellsbury when he was speaking about Ellsbury. Maybe he just felt that the rookie would take warning through the media, so thought he'd give it a shot.

[BCSoxFan]

Why, other than the fact that fans tend not to like JD Drew and hence think he is soft, would you possibly think Tito is talking to Drew when talking about Ellsbury?

Because calling out Ellsbury makes no sense and is inconsistent with anything we've seen from Tito in four plus years. And because JD Drew just happens to be suffering from the same malady that Jacoby Ellsbury is sufering from - namely, a tweak, not a serious injury, that is keeping him out of the lineup. And because JD Drew has a history of this sort of thing whereas Ellsbury does not. And Tito has already sort of addressed this with Drew this year. Remember when Drew begged out in Tokyo at the 11th hour and then didn't play in the exhibition games against the Dodgers before the resumption of the "regular season"?

From Edes Notes column that last day of the Dodgers series:

Francona expressed some frustration regarding the availability of outfielder J.D. Drew, who has not played in a week because of back tightness. Drew, who missed the two regular-season games against the Athletics in Tokyo and all three games here, took batting practice and some fly balls in the outfield before the game. Francona said he hopes to know whether Drew can play tomorrow night after the Sox hold a full-squad workout this afternoon in Oakland. "He started to feel good, but he didn't hit [Saturday]. I thought he'd hit, but he didn't feel ready to hit. I definitely think he feels better. It puts me in a little bit of a bind, because it makes it harder for me to make a judgment: OK, first of all, is he ready to play, and is he ready to help us win?"

The dude from the Courant added "I'm not pointing fingers..." to the above quote from Francona.

I mean, come on. You can disagree. But let's not pretend this conclusion could only be motivated by a blind hatred for JD Drew.

[Lollardfish]

Because calling out Ellsbury makes no sense and is inconsistent with anything we've seen from Tito in four plus years. And because JD Drew just happens to be suffering from the same malady that Jacoby Ellsbury is sufering from - namely, a tweak, not a serious injury, that is keeping him out of the lineup. And because JD Drew has a history of this sort of thing whereas Ellsbury does not. And Tito has already sort of addressed this with Drew this year. Remember when Drew begged out in Tokyo at the 11th hour and then didn't play in the exhibition games against the Dodgers before the resumption of the "regular season"?

From Edes Notes column that last day of the Dodgers series:

Francona expressed some frustration regarding the availability of outfielder J.D. Drew, who has not played in a week because of back tightness. Drew, who missed the two regular-season games against the Athletics in Tokyo and all three games here, took batting practice and some fly balls in the outfield before the game. Francona said he hopes to know whether Drew can play tomorrow night after the Sox hold a full-squad workout this afternoon in Oakland. "He started to feel good, but he didn't hit [Saturday]. I thought he'd hit, but he didn't feel ready to hit. I definitely think he feels better. It puts me in a little bit of a bind, because it makes it harder for me to make a judgment: OK, first of all, is he ready to play, and is he ready to help us win?"

The dude from the Courant added "I'm not pointing fingers..." to the above quote from Francona.

I mean, come on. You can disagree. But let's not pretend this conclusion could only be motivated by a blind hatred for JD Drew.

What I chiefly notice from this is that when Tito wants to talk about JD Drew ... he talks about JD Drew!

[Harry Hooper]

Because calling out Ellsbury makes no sense and is inconsistent with anything we've seen from Tito in four plus years.

Tito is a human being, not a managerial robot. It's not hard to believe in a moment of frustration he said something about Ellsbury that he probably didn't want to utter in public. It takes a lot to get Tito to violate his own SOP, but what he's been dealing with the last two weeks {almost daily roster moves of pitchers and position players} could have bought him to the breaking point.

Tito doesn't need to send coded messages to Drew. He can a) talk to him directly, or b) sit him in favor of Ellsbury or Moss.

[MentalDisabldLst]

In this case I think Occam's Razor applies: the simplest explanation is that there is no hidden meaning or coded messages, that he was a little critical publicly of one of his young players - and that that is uncharacteristic of a manager who normally reserves all blame for himself rather than his players. Maybe his frustration is boiling through, maybe not - but to assume he's being passive-aggressive here is going a little far towards the conspiracy-theory line.

Simple explanation: Tito was more frank than he meant to be. Or just as frank than he meant to be, but more frank than we're used to seeing. Either way, it's no big deal unless Ellsbury (or Drew) make it one.

[Pumpsie]

One can see why Tito is getting frustrated. This team has been hit with a rash of minor injuries, starting in Spring Training; from Papi's knee to Lowell's thumb to Beckett's neck to Drew's back to the entire team getting the flu. Then there's Crisp, and Ellsbury, and Cora, and Casey as well. And to top it off, now we have Moss having an attack of appendicitis and Tek getting hit in the knee. It's getting ridiculous.

I guess Tito wants some help from his players. He can't force a player to play if the player insists that he can't. But some of them will just have to play when they're not 100%. That's what he's being forced to say in the media because some of his players aren't stepping up quick enough to take one for the team. Tito's saying "Help!" And I can't blame him.

All and all, it's kinda amazing that we're 19-13 despite the injuries and the Japan trip discombobulation.

Edited by Pumpsie, 04 May 2008 - 04:27 AM.

[Philip Jeff Frye]

Why is it so implausible that Jacoby needs a kick in the ass? He's hit the big time, he's probably making more money than he ever has in his life, groupies are probably throwing themselves at him. A little reminder from the manager about what he needs to focus on could be a very good thing.

[JayMags71]

Why is it so implausible that Jacoby needs a kick in the ass?

A majority of members:

• Have an irrational love Jacoby. Ellsbury, like any "new guy", is invariably better, faster, smarter and gives us 42% less acne, Plus he's cute.
• Have an irrational distate for Drew. Doesn't show enough emotion, takes too many pitches, "soft", hates kittens, rainbows, freedom, etc.

Quite simple, really.

[Nuf Ced]

A majority of members:

Members of what? Red Sox Nation? The fans of a lessor stature than I society? Or SoSH. Be specific please if you are going to generalize about a group of people.

IMO, Tito's comments are what they are. A rookie has to learn the difference between playing hurt and playing injured.

[Ed Hillel]

For the record, I don't have an "irrational hate" for JD Drew and I don't have an "irrational love" for Jacoby Ellsbury. I was one of the few people I know that was happy with the Drew signing. I can't really say I was right at this point, but I'm not going to base any discussion/argument on any feelings I have for Drew. I'm actually quite apathetic towards the guy, so I'm not sure how that would work anyway.

All I was doing was asking Tito was speaking to Drew was a possibility, because the comments seemed out of character for Tito and I thought it was a bit curious that when he finally did go to the media that Ellsbury was his target. In addition, I never said that I came to the conclusion that this was the case, just thought it was something maybe worth discussing. If you disagree, that's fine. There have been some great responses outlying why such speculation on my part is unhealthy and I can understand that perspective. However, let's please not turn this into a thread about whether or not people here hate JD Drew. I do not hate him and it was not my intent to try to get others to hate him.

A majority of members:

• Have an irrational love Jacoby. Ellsbury, like any "new guy", is invariably better, faster, smarter and gives us 42% less acne, Plus he's cute.
• Have an irrational distate for Drew. Doesn't show enough emotion, takes too many pitches, "soft", hates kittens, rainbows, freedom, etc.

Quite simple, really.

I cannot really speak for SoSH but, around the city of Boston, this is difficult to argue. Given that issue, I think it presents another logical reason why Tito would speak out against Ellsbury, while having more than just Ellsbury on his mind. Tito really understands this city. He may have thought that speaking out on a guy like Ellsbury, who is revered, would be better for the team than speaking out against a guy like Drew, who has never really been given a fair shake in the city. He could get his message across, while keep the net ire of fans towards the players lower on the particular issue. Again, not saying that's what happened, just that I think it presents a pretty reasonable alternative.

Either way, it's no big deal unless Ellsbury (or Drew) make it one.

Absolutely correct. It is really a non-issue at this point, although it does present some ammunition for a somewhat-interesting conversation for crazy fans like us.

Edited by Ed Hillel, 04 May 2008 - 03:14 PM.