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4/17/08 Game Analysis Boston 7 New York 5


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#1 jtn46


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Posted 17 April 2008 - 10:21 PM

Beckett gave the team exactly what they needed with a long dominant outing. Nice job by Tito giving him the 8th inning. He seems stretched out and doesn't look like he's lost a beat from last season. We can bring up our issues with this team, but on the days this guy is pitching there isn't much to worry about.

Manny is unreal right now. Mussina must have some hold on Girardi...at this point I'm surprised the bench isn't calling for him to be pitched around. Good job overall by the offense in this series. I think given Mussina's diminished stuff we knew it was coming, and it was nice to see them hit Wang yesterday.

Very low class of Farnsworth and possibly Girardi to throw at Manny. I think the umpire mishandled it. It was 100% intentional, so they should have both been tossed. Issuing a warning allows the Yankees to drill our hitter without any repercussion.

#2 jayhoz


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Posted 17 April 2008 - 10:40 PM

Obviously a lot of good things for the Sox tonight.

On the negative side I was a bit concerned with some of the offensive decisisions early on.

I did not like Pedroia bunting with Ellsbury on second with no outs in the first. I did not like Ellsbury then trying to steal 3rd in the first. Why is the team playing for one run with no outs in the first with Mussina on the mound?

I also did not like Ellsbury stealing on the first pitch his next time on base. The entire world knew that Mussina was going to pitch out. Ellsbury got lucky, but I thought it was a poor choice.

#3 TheGoldenGreek33

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 12:33 AM

Watching Manny tonight made me appreciate the job Youkilis has done so far hitting behind him, and really Drew to a lesser extent. They both have done an excellent job picking up the slack for Ortiz. I began thinking about it when I heard Girardi's post-game conference last week when asked about the decision to pitch to Manny with runners on second and third instead of walking him. He replied by saying he was more afraid of what Youkilis could do with the bases loaded. I kind of laughed about it then, but began thinking about it some. Tonight really jumped out at me how teams are continuing to pitch to Manny even though he has a hot bat. Awesome stuff.

#4 Morgan's Magic Snowplow


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Posted 18 April 2008 - 12:51 AM

Obviously a lot of good things for the Sox tonight.

On the negative side I was a bit concerned with some of the offensive decisisions early on.

I did not like Pedroia bunting with Ellsbury on second with no outs in the first. I did not like Ellsbury then trying to steal 3rd in the first. Why is the team playing for one run with no outs in the first with Mussina on the mound?

I also did not like Ellsbury stealing on the first pitch his next time on base. The entire world knew that Mussina was going to pitch out. Ellsbury got lucky, but I thought it was a poor choice.


I agree completely about Pedroia bunting. That was a real head scratcher.

But I don't mind either of the Ellsbury steals (although maybe going on the first pitch the second time was ill advisable). He beats the pitchout throw even if its on the money, and he had an amazing jump as well on the steal of third. The jumps he has been getting this season have been great, significantly better than last year it seems to me, when he was really just relying on his raw speed. If this represents a real improvement in his base stealing skills, then he has become an elite level basestealer and I want to see Tito getting super aggressive with him. Against the right catchers, his probability of success is probably high enough to make sending him a no-brainer in a lot of game situations and I'm glad to see Tito recognizing that.

#5 TheGoldenGreek33

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 12:58 AM

Would it be wrong if Tito gives Jaocby the green light whenever he wants it?

#6 TheoShmeo


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Posted 18 April 2008 - 05:02 AM

Very low class of Farnsworth and possibly Girardi to throw at Manny. I think the umpire mishandled it. It was 100% intentional, so they should have both been tossed. Issuing a warning allows the Yankees to drill our hitter without any repercussion.

While I would ordinarily agree with that, Steve Phillips said exactly the same thing on BBTN, so maybe the umps didn't mishandle it. On a more serious note, I was not surprised but still glad that the Sox saved any retailation for a later date, presumably in the context of a game when an extra base runner is less important.

Last night reminded me of that period last season when Lugo couldn't anything right and every base hit seemed to be followed up with a caught stealing. I don't know if it will make that big of a difference, but he sure looks like someone who would benefit from a day or two off to get his head together.

#7 AlNipper49


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Posted 18 April 2008 - 05:42 AM

This would be kind of hard but let's leave the Farnsworth talk aside (atleast in this thread) for now. Folks will obviously want to talk about it but I can pretty much guarantee that talking about it here will most likely just bring a bunch of emotional rubbish posts.

#8 JimBoSox9


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Posted 18 April 2008 - 05:53 AM

Would it be wrong if Tito gives Jaocby the green light whenever he wants it?


This depends on where Ellsbury is hitting in the lineup. If he's hitting 7-8, it makes sense for Francona to give him the green light and see what he does with it. If he starts to develop an unfavorable SB%, you can always take it away, but I'm always in favor of letting speedsters have the chance to show they can steal at a good clip on their own. If Jacoby is hitting leadoff, however, Tito should keep control of him. In that setup, there are going to inevitably be more situations where it doesn't make sense for Jacoby to steal with the heart of the lineup coming up (i.e. a situation where if he steals second, Ortiz or Manny will be walked to make a more favorable matchup for the other team), and it would probably be asking a lot of him to have to evaluate those on top of everything else he is learning.

#9 BG913

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 05:53 AM

I also did not like Ellsbury stealing on the first pitch his next time on base. The entire world knew that Mussina was going to pitch out. Ellsbury got lucky, but I thought it was a poor choice.

I agree with the other poster on this - watching that play Ellsbury beats anything but a dead-perfect throw on the pitchout - it seems like he just had a really good read on Moose's rocking-chair like delivery to the plate. Why not put pressure on a 60 year old pitcher and a AA catcher?

Casey's AB against Traber was really impressive - was getting beaten badly but hung in there and found a mistake...that guy can flat out hit. That's the type of bench player the #2 payroll in baseball should be able to afford...

What's the over/under on when the Yanks figure out Mussina's totally done? The guy has nothing in his arsenal that can get a decent big league hitter out, and he's wild in the strikezone and up...nice combination. Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy :angry:

And at the risk of a mini-hijack...but given last night's box score (everyone had at least 1 H/HBP except Papi) do we need to start the "Move Ortiz out of the 3 slot until he regains his form?" conversation? He just looks totally lost right now - it feels like he's had more check swing fouls/strikes in 16 games this year than he had in 60 in 2007. Maybe go Youk-Manny-Drew-Ortiz at 3-4-5-6 until Lowell comes back just to take some pressure off of him?

#10 jayhoz


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Posted 18 April 2008 - 06:11 AM

I agree with the other poster on this - watching that play Ellsbury beats anything but a dead-perfect throw on the pitchout - it seems like he just had a really good read on Moose's rocking-chair like delivery to the plate. Why not put pressure on a 60 year old pitcher and a AA catcher?


I am all for putting pressure on the opposing team and using Ellsbury's speed as a weapon. Given the jump he was able to get in the first inning there is no reason not to send him the second time. Why add risk to the situation by sending him on pitch one though? Give Pedroia the take sign and hold Ellsbury at first. On pitch two let him fly.

#11 CPT Neuron


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Posted 18 April 2008 - 07:35 AM

Right now, I'm pretty sure Manny could go to the plate blindfolded with a twig and still hit a BB thrown by Mussina out of the yard - he is just that locked in against him, and not to far from making the "him" the entire league!

#12 TomRicardo


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Posted 18 April 2008 - 07:35 AM

I am all for putting pressure on the opposing team and using Ellsbury's speed as a weapon. Given the jump he was able to get in the first inning there is no reason not to send him the second time. Why add risk to the situation by sending him on pitch one though? Give Pedroia the take sign and hold Ellsbury at first. On pitch two let him fly.


Because there was zero chance a Mussina/Moeller battery was going to catch him. I have no idea what it looked like on TV but it looked like they were giving him the base at the stadium. It was really sad. When Lugo was thrown out, Lugo took an absolutely ridiculous route to the base. It was almost like Lugo wanted to be caught. He also took off really late.

#13 Smiling Joe Hesketh


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Posted 18 April 2008 - 07:47 AM

Last night reminded me of that period last season when Lugo couldn't anything right and every base hit seemed to be followed up with a caught stealing. I don't know if it will make that big of a difference, but he sure looks like someone who would benefit from a day or two off to get his head together.

Can you expand on this? Because I don't remember the period you're talking about in regards to Lugo. He had 33 steals and was caught 6 times; unless all his CS were in June when he had only 7 hits all month, I'm not really sure what you're referring to.

It certainly appears that the winter Manny spent in Arizona at the Performance Training Institute is paying huge dividends.

#14 DJnVa


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Posted 18 April 2008 - 07:50 AM

Can you expand on this? Because I don't remember the period you're talking about in regards to Lugo. He had 33 steals and was caught 6 times; unless all his CS were in June when he had only 7 hits all month, I'm not really sure what you're referring to.


He was 5 of 6 in June last year :angry:

I would like to see him get a night off if they think Lowrie can handle SS.

#15 Kevin Youkulele


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Posted 18 April 2008 - 08:17 AM

And at the risk of a mini-hijack...but given last night's box score (everyone had at least 1 H/HBP except Papi) do we need to start the "Move Ortiz out of the 3 slot until he regains his form?" conversation? He just looks totally lost right now - it feels like he's had more check swing fouls/strikes in 16 games this year than he had in 60 in 2007. Maybe go Youk-Manny-Drew-Ortiz at 3-4-5-6 until Lowell comes back just to take some pressure off of him?

I think we're getting pretty close to that point. Other than possibly Lugo, Ortiz has clearly been the worst hitter in the lineup so far this season and if he doesn't snap out of it in the next few days, it's time to minimize the effect of the offensive black hole he currently is. It is pretty amazing and a testament to how hot the 4-5-6 guys are (and Tek also, to a lesser extent) that the team is still scoring runs.

I'd actually stick Drew 3rd--keep a lefty bat near the top, and Youk is working really well at #5.

#16 BG913

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 09:27 AM

I think we're getting pretty close to that point. Other than possibly Lugo, Ortiz has clearly been the worst hitter in the lineup so far this season and if he doesn't snap out of it in the next few days, it's time to minimize the effect of the offensive black hole he currently is. It is pretty amazing and a testament to how hot the 4-5-6 guys are (and Tek also, to a lesser extent) that the team is still scoring runs.

I'd actually stick Drew 3rd--keep a lefty bat near the top, and Youk is working really well at #5.

I was actually thinking the same thing, but I couldn't get my computer to stop spell correcting "replace Ortiz with Drew in the 3 slot" with "I am insane" :angry: Gonna need to fix that setting for 2008! Drew's looked good this year - he was even joking with Jeter at 2B last night after the double and not staring like a cyborg into space........

Edited by BG913, 18 April 2008 - 09:29 AM.


#17 SoxFanSince57


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Posted 18 April 2008 - 10:02 AM

I think Tito has decided to go with Ellsbury/Crisp as lead off hitter. I have the feeling that this move is relatively permanent through the first half of the season. While I am not a big fan of it I don't see much evidence of Tito slotting Youks other than down in the order. [I also think we will continue to see sac. bunts and steals at the top of the order owing to Tito's NL roots.]

I also find it unlikely that David will be taken out of the 3 hole anytime soon. That would be way too "unsettling" for Ortiz and IMO the team. Sure Tito will continue to sit David if he continues to struggle but I just don't see any change in the batting order as a result of his problems.

Given these assumptions on my part, I am hoping to see this batting order when Mike Lowell comes back.

Batting Order
Jacoby Ellsbury CF
Dustin Pedroia 2B
David Ortiz DH
Manny Ramirez LF
Kevin Youkilis 1B
J.D. Drew RF
Mike Lowell 3B
Jason Varitek C
Julio Lugo SS

Edited by SoxFanSince57, 18 April 2008 - 10:03 AM.


#18 gcapalbo

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 10:04 AM

I think you have to come out of the last two series against the Yankees very happy, having won 3 out of 5.

The Yankees can't at all be too enthused about this last two game set. Sure, they won a game against our essentially rookie 5th starter, and whatever flotsam we put in from the bullpen to allow others to be rested. Essentially their ace was knocked around, and in the game last night ours was just that-- an ace.

Mussina, their #2 may very well be showing signs of age, or at the most optomistic, a slow start to the season.

Very low class of Farnsworth and possibly Girardi to throw at Manny. I think the umpire mishandled it. It was 100% intentional, so they should have both been tossed. Issuing a warning allows the Yankees to drill our hitter without any repercussion.


I completely understand the concept of pitching inside, and keeping a hot hitter from feeling too comfortable, it's part of the game, but come on, throwing at someone's head, and behind them?

I know this is the South Bronx, but there's no place in baseball for that. If Manny had tried to back away from that pitch, he might have caught it right around the cheekbone and could be blind, or dead this morning.

Girardi seemed to be indicating that he was going to pull this kind of stunt during spring traing. Maybe he's been reading too much NYYFANS drivel, where anyone who dares hit against their dynasty should automatically be drilled.

If this is how he's going to play it, it's going to be an ugly, ugly year.

I agree, both should have been thrown out, fined and suspended.

In fact, I think the league should go ahead and review the tapes and do it this morning.

#19 Oil Can's Liver


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Posted 18 April 2008 - 11:05 AM

An absolutely picture perfect win. Manny continues to keep his foot firmly planted on YankeeNation's neck and Beckett shows the Yankees exactly what an ace is...something I do not believe they have.

As for the low-rent attempted beaning of Manny.. Just from comments made post-game, I believe it will not be forgotten. Why risk a stupid suspension when it would be an obvious retalliation? Let them sweat it out..believe me, Arod was feeling it, did you see he's knees buckle and front-side open when Beckett broke off the deuce? He definitely thought he was getting plunked. The Sox have 14 more games against them..you can bet your a$$ A-rod will go down.

There is a place in baseball for drilling someone in the ass or pushing them back...what Farnsworth did was uncalled for and very dangerous. Like the previous poster mentioned...Girardi hinted at this in spring training. This season series will see some serious sparks.

Edited by Oil Can's Liver, 18 April 2008 - 11:11 AM.


#20 IronManny

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 11:12 AM

A-rod will definitely pay for farnsworth's cowardly act


Doesn't it seem really ridiculous when you type it out like that?

#21 Oil Can's Liver


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Posted 18 April 2008 - 11:21 AM

Doesn't it seem really ridiculous when you type it out like that?


Yeah..that is why I edited it..before you posted this. And all in all...if you really think about it..it is cowardly. When he doesn't have to pick up a bat and stand in there against 98 MPH missiles and decides to put a man's career in jeopardy by throwing at his head, it damn well is cowardly.

Edited by Oil Can's Liver, 18 April 2008 - 11:23 AM.


#22 Rudy Pemberton


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Posted 18 April 2008 - 11:25 AM

Can you expand on this? Because I don't remember the period you're talking about in regards to Lugo. He had 33 steals and was caught 6 times; unless all his CS were in June when he had only 7 hits all month, I'm not really sure what you're referring to.


He was picked off several times as well, a few times as a PR, I believe. These don't show up on the records, right?

#23 smastroyin


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Posted 18 April 2008 - 11:30 AM

Regarding Papi.

There are two things we know about lineup construction.

One - it doesn't really mean a lot in terms of how the team performs. A single fluctuation in a player's statistics is more important than where he hits in the lineup.
Two - players like their lineup spot.

Given those two things, I don't see the Red Sox moving Ortiz out of the third position. Honestly, I don't see why people here want to suggest it other than to spit random vitriol. If any guy has earned the right to keep his lineup spot until he is dead and buried, it is David Ortiz. Now, I understand there is analysis and discussion, etc. etc. But moving Papi to fifth or sixth from third isn't going to net a whole lot of runs. In short, I'd love to hear why this is a good idea outside of your own frustration. It is much more important to get him hitting well than to move him around in the lineup, and I think that leaving him in his comfort zone is the best way to get there. Now, if he needs some time on the DL or something like that, then by all means, let's do it. But moving him down in the order? I'm not seeing the benefit here.

#24 PedroKsBambino


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Posted 18 April 2008 - 11:32 AM

Yeah..that is why I edited it..before you posted this. And all in all...if you really think about it..it is cowardly. When he doesn't have to pick up a bat and stand in there against 98 MPH missiles and decides to put a man's career in jeopardy by throwing at his head, it damn well is cowardly.


It was a lame throw, and if he truly intended it to be that high and in that location he should have been ejected. That said, these teams hit each other a lot. For stretches it was Pedro (mostly) hitting the Yankees a lot. Now we have Joba and Farnsworth throwing high at people. Both teams have plate divers, though the number of them changes over time. Both sides have guys the other team doesn't like, pitchers and hitters. Each side of fans wants the moral high ground. Seems to me that this is just not going to stop and the right response is the one Manny and Beckett had---don't worry about it and win the game.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you never respond when your guys are thrown at but the rhetoric on this issue has gotten a bit out of hand, imo.

Edited by PedroKsBambino, 18 April 2008 - 11:34 AM.


#25 TomRicardo


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Posted 18 April 2008 - 11:33 AM

He was picked off several times as well, a few times as a PR, I believe. These don't show up on the records, right?


Yea there was a point after Lugo was caught the first time that he did a couple of real bone head running things like trying to take an extra base when he clearly didn't have it. As I recall Lugo was being pissy about something like moving down the order (even though he was lucky to start).

#26 Foulkey Reese


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Posted 18 April 2008 - 11:34 AM

Yea there was a point after Lugo was caught the first time that he did a couple of real bone head running things like trying to take an extra base when he clearly didn't have it. As I recall Lugo was being pissy about something like moving down the order (even though he was lucky to start).

I remember Lugo making the last out in a 1 run game getting caught tring to steal 3rd base.

That was his low point for me last season.

#27 Smiling Joe Hesketh


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Posted 18 April 2008 - 11:48 AM

He was picked off several times as well, a few times as a PR, I believe. These don't show up on the records, right?

That's a very good question. I think you're right; I just took a look at Matt Holliday's B-R page, and he's got 0 steals and 0 caught stealings listed for the 2007 postseason. But of course he was picked off by Paps in Game 2.

#28 Morgan's Magic Snowplow


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Posted 18 April 2008 - 12:02 PM

Regarding Papi.

There are two things we know about lineup construction.

One - it doesn't really mean a lot in terms of how the team performs. A single fluctuation in a player's statistics is more important than where he hits in the lineup.
Two - players like their lineup spot.

Given those two things, I don't see the Red Sox moving Ortiz out of the third position. Honestly, I don't see why people here want to suggest it other than to spit random vitriol. If any guy has earned the right to keep his lineup spot until he is dead and buried, it is David Ortiz. Now, I understand there is analysis and discussion, etc. etc. But moving Papi to fifth or sixth from third isn't going to net a whole lot of runs. In short, I'd love to hear why this is a good idea outside of your own frustration. It is much more important to get him hitting well than to move him around in the lineup, and I think that leaving him in his comfort zone is the best way to get there. Now, if he needs some time on the DL or something like that, then by all means, let's do it. But moving him down in the order? I'm not seeing the benefit here.


I agree completely with Smas. Moving Ortiz is not going to appreciably increase our run expectancy and it could unsettle him further or be seen as a slap in the face. Its just not a good idea.

#29 sdcraigo

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 12:26 PM

Yeah..that is why I edited it..before you posted this. And all in all...if you really think about it..it is cowardly. When he doesn't have to pick up a bat and stand in there against 98 MPH missiles and decides to put a man's career in jeopardy by throwing at his head, it damn well is cowardly.


BTW, this was posted on the Yankee Lohud blog - http://yankees.lhblogs.com/ :

"UPDATE, 9:34 p.m.: You want to throw inside and knock somebody off the plate, good idea. But Kyle Farnsworth throwing a ball behind the head of Manny Ramirez is irresponsible and dangerous.

And before you applaud the idea, what would you think if Jonathan Papelbon did it to A-Rod or Jeter? Iím all for the idea of not allowing a hitter to get comfortable. But when you throw up around somebodyís head, thatís wrong.

Beyond that, do you want to get the guy mad? Heís hitting .500 against you when heís a goofball."

#30 bankshot1


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Posted 18 April 2008 - 12:33 PM

Mussina, their #2 may very well be showing signs of age, or at the most optomistic, a slow start to the season.


To be fair, GodBoy who usually pitchs well against the Sox is the MFY #2. While you can slot Mussina wherever you want behing Wang and Pettitte, he is really the #5, behind Hughes and Kennedy.

#31 Bucknahs Bum Ankle


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Posted 18 April 2008 - 12:54 PM

I would have started a new thread for this, but I don't think there is really enough data to go on yet to think that this might be significant in any way, so just dropping it in here for consideration. SSS caveats certainly apply.

While watching last night's game, it occurred to me that Papelbon seems to be more prone to giving up runs in a non-save situations. So digging into his numbers as a full-time reliever (2006-2008), we find:

Papelbon		  Games   IP	ERA	 BA	OBP   SLG	K/9	BB/9   HR/9

2006
Save Situation:	 42   45.2   1.18   .168  .223  .267	9.85   2.17   0.60
Non-Save Situation: 17   22.2   0.40   .165  .185  .228	9.93   0.79   0	

2007
Save Situation:	 42   41.2   1.51   .144  .214  .212	12.74  2.38   0.43	
Non-Save Situation: 17   16.2   2.70   .153  .231  .322	13.50  2.16   1.62

2008
Save Situation:	  5	 6	1.50   .227  .261  .318	16.50  1.50   0
Non-Save Situation:  2	 2	9.00   .250  .250  .750	22.50  0	  4.50
*Numbers from baseball-reference.com
(note the game appearance numbers for 2006 and 2007 are indeed identical, not a typo)

We can see that in 2006 his ERA was actually notably better in non-save situations, but his peripherals were fairly similar (except for drops in BB and HR rates in non-save situations). The ERA situation flip-flopped last year (which must be what I had in my memory thinking about this) and he performed quite a bit worse in non-save situations, largely due to an increase in HR rate (3 in 16.2 vs 2 in 41.2). The pattern has held thus far this season, though it's obviously too early to make much of it.

Again, there isn't a ton of data to go on here, but it does make me wonder if Papelbon might be prone to performing worse in non-save situations (largely via giving up more HRs). Perhaps he really does need the added pressure/adrenaline of a save situation to perform his best?

#32 Bucknahs Bum Ankle


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Posted 18 April 2008 - 01:00 PM

Regarding Papi.

There are two things we know about lineup construction.

One - it doesn't really mean a lot in terms of how the team performs. A single fluctuation in a player's statistics is more important than where he hits in the lineup.
Two - players like their lineup spot.

Given those two things, I don't see the Red Sox moving Ortiz out of the third position. Honestly, I don't see why people here want to suggest it other than to spit random vitriol. If any guy has earned the right to keep his lineup spot until he is dead and buried, it is David Ortiz. Now, I understand there is analysis and discussion, etc. etc. But moving Papi to fifth or sixth from third isn't going to net a whole lot of runs. In short, I'd love to hear why this is a good idea outside of your own frustration. It is much more important to get him hitting well than to move him around in the lineup, and I think that leaving him in his comfort zone is the best way to get there. Now, if he needs some time on the DL or something like that, then by all means, let's do it. But moving him down in the order? I'm not seeing the benefit here.

You really don't think having someone who can get on base in front of Manny would be beneficial? I think it would make sense to put Youks or Drew in the third spot in the short term, at least until Papi gets back on track. Assuming that all parties are willing to give it a shot that is.

#33 absintheofmalaise


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Posted 18 April 2008 - 01:18 PM

That's a very good question. I think you're right; I just took a look at Matt Holliday's B-R page, and he's got 0 steals and 0 caught stealings listed for the 2007 postseason. But of course he was picked off by Paps in Game 2.

It gets recorded by as a PO not a CS. A runner has to make a move to the next base in order to get a CS, even if he dives back to the back and is out. If he doesn't make a move to the next base and is picked off while diving back to the bag then he is picked off and not caught stealing. Game Log
Lugo's from last night got recorded as a CS. Game log from last night.

#34 behindthepen


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Posted 18 April 2008 - 01:27 PM

Again, there isn't a ton of data to go on here, but it does make me wonder if Papelbon might be prone to performing worse in non-save situations (largely via giving up more HRs). Perhaps he really does need the added pressure/adrenaline of a save situation to perform his best?

Part of it has to be approach. In a non-save situation, he should be primarily focused on getting outs, even at the risk of giving HR. Both his K rates and HR rates are higher in non-saves, which makes sense.

#35 SoxFanSince57


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Posted 18 April 2008 - 01:56 PM

It seems to me if Manny can leave the Farnsworth pitch at the park so can others. The comment below indicates to me that Manny is past this issue and was not concerned.

Meanwhile, Ramirez was almost touched by a very hard pitch from Yankees reliever Kyle Farnsworth in the top of the seventh, but it went behind the slugger's back. Both sides were warned by the umpires at that time.

Ramirez suspects it might have been retaliation for Sox reliever David Aardsma hitting Alex Rodriguez on Wednesday.

"You know, we hit one of the best players last night, and I guess they want to send a message," Ramirez said. "They need to back up their players, and they did."

http://boston.redsox..._...sp&c_id=bos

#36 reggiecleveland


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Posted 18 April 2008 - 02:21 PM

Yea there was a point after Lugo was caught the first time that he did a couple of real bone head running things like trying to take an extra base when he clearly didn't have it. As I recall Lugo was being pissy about something like moving down the order (even though he was lucky to start).


I was at a July game in satle where he was picked off second at a key moment. The Sox ended up winning in a blow out. To me is it was symbolic of his season. His poor play was forgotten because of team success.

#37 Bucknahs Bum Ankle


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Posted 18 April 2008 - 02:51 PM

Part of it has to be approach. In a non-save situation, he should be primarily focused on getting outs, even at the risk of giving HR. Both his K rates and HR rates are higher in non-saves, which makes sense.

I agree this seems likely. Lurker, "P'tucket, rhymes with..." makes a similar point:

Thanks for the interesting data. The other thing that jumped out at me is the difference in BB/9--if you take the lower walk rate and higher HR rate in non-save situations, could you hypothesize that he's simply going after batters more aggressively in the non-save games, and occasionally paying the price for it?



#38 BG913

  • 132 posts

Posted 18 April 2008 - 03:06 PM

Regarding Papi.

There are two things we know about lineup construction.

One - it doesn't really mean a lot in terms of how the team performs. A single fluctuation in a player's statistics is more important than where he hits in the lineup.
Two - players like their lineup spot.

Given those two things, I don't see the Red Sox moving Ortiz out of the third position. Honestly, I don't see why people here want to suggest it other than to spit random vitriol.

In short, I'd love to hear why this is a good idea outside of your own frustration. It is much more important to get him hitting well than to move him around in the lineup, and I think that leaving him in his comfort zone is the best way to get there.

Since I guess I brought this up...frustrated? I can't be that frustrated when the Sox best hitter is hitting less than half his weight and they're still 10-7. I think the way I phrased this was simply to ask whether it was time to start asking the question - which probably doesn't rank as the most vitriolic post in the history of the board.

The ONLY benefit would be to take any self-imposed pressure he's putting on himself and reduce it, to speed his recovery. Obviously the Sox aren't really struggling to score runs with the guys around him tearing the cover off the ball, and your point about him being able to work his way out of this in his comfort zone is a good one (though he doesn't appear to be even remotely comfortable). Just trying to find a way to speed up his return to form - thought a change of scenery might help take some of the burden off, is all....

#39 dauber23

  • 639 posts

Posted 19 April 2008 - 11:14 AM

Thought you guys might like to see this Mike Lupica column: Yankees wish they had Beckett