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January '06 Red Sox Off-season Thread


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#1001 Alacoldart

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Posted 31 January 2006 - 02:40 AM

Thinking mostly logically, Santana "lost" the Cy Young for Curt when he did that whole "best pitcher in baseball" thing.  Thinking a little less logically, Foulke gave up the homerun, so isn't he deserving of some blame too?  Finally, we should avoid a guy, because he hits homeruns off elite relievers, why?  (And the answer is, because he has no role on the team...)

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I did say it was an irrational stance, did I not? :angry: It makes me feel better, though. However, I do agree that he has no role on the team and that's a better reason for not offering to trade for him. I still wish he'd stayed in Atlanta though...or wherever he came from before that. I would have slept better that night and not break out into a cold sweat whenever he comes up to the plate in a position to tie the game or put the O's ahead.

But, yes, no role. Stay away. I'd rather go with Bard anyway, given that set of options.

#1002 Eric Van


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Posted 31 January 2006 - 04:14 AM

I'll park adjust the new guys:

Looking at the 2005 starting line up:

1. Loretta: 80 (53 RC) -> 93
2. Nixon:  78 (70 RC)
3. Manny: 141 (134 RC)
4. Ortiz: 129 (137 RC)
5. Crisp: 85 (92 RC) -> 95
6. Youkilis: 87 (13 RC)
7. Lowell: 69 (46 RC) -> 76
8. Gonzalez: 61 (47 RC) -> 67
9. Varitek: 78 (78 RC)

Projected RC total: 844



#1003 Guest_Corsi Combover_*

Posted 31 January 2006 - 07:59 AM

The unofficial word out of Boston is that Kapler has either signed a minor-league contract with the Red Sox, or will soon. Kapler, 30, was once thought to be out for the 2006 season after rupturing his left Achilles' tendon last September. But he may make it back after all.

Kapler, one of the most physically fit players in baseball, is scheduled to report to Fort Myers, Fla., for spring training, although he will be there strictly on a rehab basis. When Kapler will put a bat in his hands is not known.


Source: http://sports.mainet...060131sox.shtml

#1004 TheoShmeo


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Posted 31 January 2006 - 08:28 AM

The obvious questions would be:
1) Does Bard have options left to be sent down to AAA?
2) Are the O's looking to dump Lopez's salary or are they looking for equal value in return?
3) Would Lopez throw a hissy fit if he was traded to the Sox to be a back up player?

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And:

4) Would the Sox pay anything close to $8 million for a back-up catcher (discounting, for the purposes of discussion, the Orioles throwing in cash and the subtraction of Graf's salary)?
5) Would the Orioles deal Lopez to any team in the AL East?

#1005 BigJimEd

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Posted 31 January 2006 - 09:28 AM

I hope that quiets some of the nay-sayers who claim the offense is taking a significant downturn from 2005.  Things look good indeed. :angry:

We may get a better year from Manny since he under performed and Youks can't possibly post numbers as far below his projections as he did last year.  Not if he's getting half the starts at 1st or more.  Gonzo whould definately benifit from being in Fenway and part of a better lineup.  I'm really excited about this season.

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While the projections are nice and the Sox offense has very good potential. I think most of the nay-sayers are more concerned with Lowell and Gonzalez hitting like last year or even worse. Same with Loretta. What if Nixon misses another 40 games and is replaced by the 2005 version of Mohr?

I don't think all these things will happen but it is a very real possibility so there are question marks, particularly Lowell and Gonzalez.

I, for one, hope they hold onto Graff as extra Lowell insurance along with Snow.

#1006 Rudy Pemberton


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Posted 31 January 2006 - 09:53 AM

Love this quote from Wells agent in the Globe.

Clifton, when asked about Wells's potential to make life miserable for the club, said, ''David has always been the consummate professional. There's no reason to think he wouldn't be. He's always been a man of his word. He hopes the Sox would be."


Wouldn't a man of his word honor his contract, and stop demanding a trade ONE YEAR after signing a deal? Someone should tell Clifton to shut up.

Edited by Rudy Pemberton, 31 January 2006 - 09:53 AM.


#1007 jah317

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Posted 31 January 2006 - 09:59 AM

And:

4) Would the Sox pay anything close to $8 million for a back-up catcher (discounting, for the purposes of discussion, the Orioles throwing in cash and the subtraction of Graf's salary)?
5) Would the Orioles deal Lopez to any team in the AL East?

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If I heard correctly Lopez wants out of Baltimore because they signed another catcher and he does not want to play another position. So why would Lopez be happy in Boston as a back up cather, third first baseman, and second or third DH? He wants to be a starting catcher so he would be complaining just as much as a in Boston. He has no role on this team that would OK with him.

#1008 Rudy Pemberton


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Posted 31 January 2006 - 10:18 AM

Players like Javy Lopez are backups on fantasy teams, not real teams. There's no position for him in Boston, esp. not the one he wants to play. And he's expensive. Nothing doing.

#1009 jtn46


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Posted 31 January 2006 - 03:55 PM

Love this quote from Wells agent in the Globe.
Wouldn't a man of his word honor his contract, and stop demanding a trade ONE YEAR after signing a deal? Someone should tell Clifton to shut up.

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I'm not sure he's demanding it, as much as he's just asking for it. That said, he gave his word that he'd sign with Arizona, and signed with the Yankees, then gave his word later that he'd sign with the Yankees, and signed with San Diego, so I'm not sure he's "always been man of his word".

#1010 woofer

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Posted 31 January 2006 - 04:09 PM

I'm not sure he's demanding it, as much as he's just asking for it.  That said, he gave his word that he'd sign with Arizona, and signed with the Yankees, then gave his word later that he'd sign with the Yankees, and signed with San Diego, so I'm not sure he's "always been man of his word".

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The fact that these quotes keep coming from Wells' agent make me think that it really is just a request, and there is no question that Wells will pitch for the Sox this year if he does not get traded. Wells does not strike me as a guy who, if he really wanted out, would speak through his agent-- I think he would be running his mouth every chance he got.

#1011 Carl Everetts Therapist


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Posted 31 January 2006 - 11:22 PM

Ok I would have posted this in the members only section except for the fact that every single post that I throw in over there ends up in here anyway. The same source that told me that the Crisp deal was done ( at least three hours before any news outlet had it ) , the same source that gave me the exact terms on the Gonzales signing money wise ( he gave me this a week ago and was right , down to dollers and sense on the money part)... Just gave me this tidbit... You can take it with a grain of salt or , take it however you want , but this guy has been more accurate than Rosenthal this Offseason.... Says... that there is a pretty sizable trade in the works that icludes the sox and he says it is very near completion. ( you can check back on my posts quoting this source for reliability...

This deal reportedly close to fruition is as follows :

Red Sox deal : Matt Clement and Alex Cora
Washington Nationals Deal : Jose Vidro and Jay Bergman (personally I have never heard of this Bergman guy)

Mets deal: Lastings Milledge , and Xavier Nady ( the original request was for Vicor Diaz , but the Mets still have hopes for Diaz)

Red Sox get : Lastings Milledge and Xavier Nady
Nationals get: Matt Clement and Alex Cora Plus supplemental money if Clement pitches over 150innings from Red Sox....
Mets get: Jose Vidro ( mets are very high on Vidro for 2nd) and Jay Bergman plus PTNBL from either Nats Sox depending on Vidro's health. Manya also is trying to work Livan Hernandez into this deal somehow.

Like I said when I put up the scooped info on this source in regaqrd to A crisp deal, within two weekes you will hear this particular source on a Marjor Boston Sports Radio outlet in less than two weeks.

I have actually been told by this source the deal is in the final stages, and the only team holding back on this deal is indeed Boston who is the most reluctant.

Edited by Carl Everetts Therapist, 31 January 2006 - 11:30 PM.


#1012 Alacoldart

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Posted 31 January 2006 - 11:28 PM

I must say that this is one of the wildest trade ideas I've ever seen.

The Mets are trading Milledge and Nady for Jose Vidro and Bergman and a PTBNL? Why would they ever do this? Don't they still have Matsui on the books? Does Vidro come over as a backup?

The Nationals part of the deal I can understand. The Red Sox part I can understand (and they're hesitant to part with Clement to get Milledge? doesn't pass the smell test), but this would be a stupid deal for the Mets.

I think your source might be having some fun with you, CET. Or really drunk. Or both.

If this deal happens as listed, I think Steinbrenner screams "collusion!" at the top of his lungs. I may have to start going to church too, because this would have to be some sort of sign.

#1013 DJnVa


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Posted 31 January 2006 - 11:29 PM

That's interesting. Cora would seem to be redundant at this stage, so we could net a top prospect and a decent #4 OFer for him and Clement? Ooookay.

Sign me up.

Edited by DJnVa, 31 January 2006 - 11:30 PM.


#1014 PedroKsBambino


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Posted 31 January 2006 - 11:30 PM

The Mets are truly nuts if they deal Milledge and Nady for Vidro--who appears to still have significant knee issues---and Bergman (a C+ pitching prospect in John Sickels' book).

I guess Vidro does have that history with Minaya, but it sounds awful sweet for everyone else in my view. An interesting rumor to chew on, but I'm not sure I see it from the Mets perspective---then again, I don't think much of Minaya, either. Wouldn't he at least want to dump Matsui on someone in that deal, for example?

Also, why would there be an innings issue with Clement? Does he have an incentive or something that would kick in?

Edited by PedroKsBambino, 31 January 2006 - 11:33 PM.


#1015 BoSox24

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Posted 31 January 2006 - 11:33 PM

The only reason I see Boston being the team holding this deal up (assuming this is legit--and I am not questioning CET here, just seems too good to be true) is that they realize that they also have to deal Wells and then they have to hope Paps can last a full season and that Beckett and Schilling are healthy. Gambles I would take to get a guy like Milledge, but gambles nonetheless.

#1016 Carl Everetts Therapist


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Posted 31 January 2006 - 11:37 PM

Sorry guys I left out the part about Manaya getting Livan Hernandez also. Or at least being inerested in him as a significant part of the mix.


You're right without him it doesn't seem like much of a deal , but you have to remeber that Vidro is only two years removed from All-star type numbers and he is a Manaya type player / Hispanic..... I really have faith in at least some formation of this deal going down. This guy who gave me the info has been in on everything this offseason and is really convinced something is really in the works , and that Manaya is really hot after vidro.

Doesn't Soryano make Vidro very expenadble anyway?

Edited by Carl Everetts Therapist, 31 January 2006 - 11:39 PM.


#1017 SoxFanPJ


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Posted 31 January 2006 - 11:39 PM

Ok I would have posted this in the members only section except for the fact that every singel post that I thor in over there ends up in here anyway. The same source that told me that the Crisp deal was done ( at least three hours before any news outlet had it ) , the same source that gave me the exact terms on the Gonzales signing money wise ( he gave me this a week agoa and was right , done to dollers and sense on the money part)... Just gave me this tidbit... You can take it with agrain of salt or , take it however you want , but this guy has been more accurate than Rosenthal this Offseason.... Says... that there is a pretty sizable trade in the works that icludes the sox and he says it is very near completeinon. ( you can checak back on my posts quoting this source for reliability...

This deal reportedly close to fruition is as follows :

Red Sox deal : Matt Clement and Alex Cora
Washington Nationals Deal : Jose Vidro and Jay Bergman (personally I have never heard of the guy)

Mets deal: Lastings Milledge , and Xavier Nady ( the original request was for Vicot Diaz , but the Mets still have hopes for Diaz)

Red Sox get : Lastings Milledge and Xavier Nady
Nationals get: Matt Clement and Alex Cora Plus supplemental money if Clement pitches over 150innings from Red Sox....
Mets get: Jose Vidro and Jay Bergman plus PTNBL from either Nats Sox depending on Vidro's health.

Like I said when I put up the scooped thsi source in regaqrd to A crisp deal, within two weekes you will hear this particular source on a Marjor Boston Sports Radio outlet in less than two weeks.

I have actually been told by this source the deal isw in the final stages, and the only team holding back on this deal is indeed Boston who is the most reluctant.

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Interesting little rumor.

Vidro has $7(06) $7.5(07), $8 (08) remaingin on his contract.
Clement $9.5 (06) $9.5 (07)
Cora $1.4 (06)
Nady $500K + ??

If Soriano is really unwilling to move to the OF, then swapping Vidro for Clement may actually be a good move, they can then use Soriano at 2B.

In my first glance at the rumor, it looks like the Mets are giving up a lot for Vidro.
I would guess the Sox would have to include a good, not great prospect back to the Mets in addition to Vidro and Bergman.

FWIW, I couldn't find a "Jay Bergman" prospect using google.

If I am the Sox I would do that deal. It gives you a great OF prospect, a 4th OF, and clears up a roster spot on the 25 man roster, by removing Clement and Cora and adding Nady.

#1018 Stuffy McInnis

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Posted 31 January 2006 - 11:40 PM

Sorry guys I left out the part about Manay getting Livan Hernandez also. Or at least being inerested in him as a significant part of the mix.
You're right without him it doesn't seem like much of a deal , but you have to remeber that Vidro is only two years removed from All-star type numbers and he is a Manaya type player / Hispanic..... I really have faith in at least some formation of this deal going down. This guy who gave me the info has been in on everything this offseason and is really convinced something is really in the works , and that Manaya is really hot after vidro.

Doesn't Soryano make Vidro very expenadble anyway?

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Unless Matusi is being stapled to Milledge, that doesn't explain why this isn't a slam dunk for Boston. There's would have be more to the deal (or less) if we're hesitant.

#1019 Lucen


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Posted 31 January 2006 - 11:41 PM

Red Sox get : Lastings Milledge and Xavier Nady
Nationals get: Matt Clement and Alex Cora Plus supplemental money if Clement pitches over 150innings from Red Sox....
Mets get: Jose Vidro ( mets are very high on Vidro for 2nd) and Jay Bergman plus PTNBL from either Nats Sox depending on Vidro's health. Manya also is trying to work Livan Hernandez into this deal somehow.

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If this is true, it's a good deal for the Sox. Milledge is the 4th outfielder and platoons with Trot, can play CF if need be, and Nady isn't a bad pickup either, but he'd be the 5th outfielder. Could this be a sign they have plans to move Trot? Or perhaps they haven't given up on moving Manny? I certainly hope they're keeping Manny around, but with a 5th outfielder, it seems like they're preparing to move someone.

I do have a question. Why would they throw in money if he pitches over 150 innings, rather than if he doesn't throw that many? Was that a typo, or is there a reason they'd want money if he went over?

#1020 Carl Everetts Therapist


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Posted 31 January 2006 - 11:41 PM

From what the guy who passed thsi trade along to me said is that Bergman was also much more than a C+ propect.... Maybe he's wrong, But he said he was more of a proven lefty than a prospect.

#1021 TheoShmeo


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Posted 31 January 2006 - 11:42 PM

The only reason I see Boston being the team holding this deal up (assuming this is legit--and I am not questioning CET here, just seems too good to be true) is that they realize that they also have to deal Wells and then they have to hope Paps can last a full season and that Beckett and Schilling are healthy.  Gambles I would take to get a guy like Milledge, but gambles nonetheless.

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Assuming this deal is real, and it would be very nice if it were, I think the Sox would not deal Wells until the very end of ST, at the earliest, and only then if someone overwhelmed them. They'd have to know that the other starters are healthy/ready to start the season, and be OK with Paps starting the year in the rotation before they would trade their "sixth" starter.

Another nice benefit of this deal, and one that would reduce the risk factor in trading both Clement and Wells, is that it would free up dollars for Roger on the off chance that he decides he wants to pitch again, and do so in Boston.....

#1022 PedrosRedGlove

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Posted 31 January 2006 - 11:43 PM

Jay Bergmann:

http://thebaseballcu...-bergmann.shtml

24 year old who has been very successful in the minors, and in a short stint in the majors, since being converted to a reliever during the 2004 season. I'm for any deal that is basically Clement for Milledge, who should be able to fill replace Trot in right field in 2007 if hes here.

#1023 DJnVa


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Posted 31 January 2006 - 11:43 PM

If this is true, it's a good deal for the Sox.  Milledge is the 4th outfielder and platoons with Trot, can play CF if need be, and Nady isn't a bad pickup either, but he'd be the 5th outfielder.  Could this be a sign they have plans to move Trot?  Or perhaps they haven't given up on moving Manny?  I certainly hope they're keeping Manny around, but with a 5th outfielder, it seems like they're preparing to move someone.

I do have a question.  Why would they throw in money if he pitches over 150 innings, rather than if he doesn't throw that many?  Was that a typo, or is there a reason they'd want money if he went over?

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Milledge wouldn't be the 4th OF in Boston. He has 200 ABs above A ball.

Edited by DJnVa, 31 January 2006 - 11:44 PM.


#1024 Stuffy McInnis

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Posted 31 January 2006 - 11:44 PM

I do have a question.  Why would they throw in money if he pitches over 150 innings, rather than if he doesn't throw that many?  Was that a typo, or is there a reason they'd want money if he went over?

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Clement's salary goes up the more he pitches, supposedly up to $3M per year if he hit every possible incentive.

#1025 Lucen


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Posted 31 January 2006 - 11:45 PM

Milledge wouldn't be the 4th OF in Boston.  He has 200 ABs above A ball.

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Ah, I was under the impression he was nearly major league ready. Guess I was mistaken. Nady as the 4th outfielder makes sense then, and Milledge is slated for a promotion in 2007.

Edit: And I didn't know that about Clement's contract. That makes more sense then.

Edited by Lucen, 31 January 2006 - 11:46 PM.


#1026 Carl Everetts Therapist


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Posted 31 January 2006 - 11:46 PM

Milledge is not a 4th outfielder , Nady would be that before Milledge, Milledge would start in AAA I suspect and probably wouldn't see the Majors till 07. And yes it was a typo about Clement. He'd be subsidised only if he failed to pitch over a certain amount not below it.

#1027 Alacoldart

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Posted 31 January 2006 - 11:46 PM

Sorry guys I left out the part about Manaya getting Livan Hernandez also. Or at least being inerested in him as a significant part of the mix.

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That would probably be the only thing that would make it a deal worth doing for New York, but there's still the issue of Kaz Matsui. Ugly contract and a lot of ugly play. That would be a tough sell.

Doesn't Soriano make Vidro very expenadble anyway?


Only if Bowden is backing down from his desire to see Soriano take a shot in the OF. If he is, it doesn't speak very well for how much control he has over his own team. Unless his cronies told him to deal Vidro (who, with Livan, is one of the few remaining elements from the Expos which is cause for speculation that they are trying to purge the franchise of all its old trappings) and placate Soriano.

Matsui, though...where would he go?

#1028 Youks Baltic Roots

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Posted 31 January 2006 - 11:48 PM

I would love to see this, but I just have to believe it is too good for the Red Sox to come to fruition.

Milledge is the number one prospect in the Mets farm system, and a genuine top prospect with upside - his level is comparable to Marte actually, though he is a much different type of player.

Nady would be our number four outfielder this year, not Milledge, who would get some more seasoning in AAA now that we have Crisp. Nady would be an absolutely perfect platoon partner for Trot, mashing lefties to a tune of .323 .400 .452 last year with San Diego.

I remember the Mets talking about Cora earlier this offseason ... even if this rumour doesn't pan out it would be nice to see if there is room for a Cora-Nady swap, maybe with a couple of lower-level prospects switching places to even it all out. The Mets have Victor Diaz in waiting, and could definitely deal Nady without taking a hit in their starting lineup.

#1029 glennhoffmania


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Posted 31 January 2006 - 11:48 PM

Sorry guys I left out the part about Manaya getting Livan Hernandez also. Or at least being inerested in him as a significant part of the mix.
You're right without him it doesn't seem like much of a deal , but you have to remeber that Vidro is only two years removed from All-star type numbers and he is a Manaya type player / Hispanic..... I really have faith in at least some formation of this deal going down. This guy who gave me the info has been in on everything this offseason and is really convinced something is really in the works , and that Manaya is really hot after vidro.

Doesn't Soryano make Vidro very expenadble anyway?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


That certainly makes it more plausible from the Mets' perspective, but I don't get why the Nats would do this. Livan, Vidro and Bergman for Clement and Cora? If Vidro's worth anything, it seems like a pretty crappy deal for them.

#1030 Alacoldart

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Posted 31 January 2006 - 11:51 PM

Another nice benefit of this deal, and one that would reduce the risk factor in trading both Clement and Wells, is that it would free up dollars for Roger on the off chance that he decides he wants to pitch again, and do so in Boston.....

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Clemens hasn't said whether or not he intends to come back in '06, though his BP session for Houston is very telling of where his loyalties lay. I think the Sox would have to knock his socks (pardon the pun) off to get him out of Texas and the Yankees will be able to match any offer Boston throws out there and could easily free-up a little money by dealing a couple guys like Small and Bubba Crosby and maybe even Pavano.

If the Sox deal Clement AND Wells, it will probably be to put Paps in the rotation. As soon as Rajah commits to pitching again, they'll undoubtedly make him and offer but will probably work under the impression that he won't be interested enough to make the trek. What a rotation that would be, though.

#1031 Lucen


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Posted 31 January 2006 - 11:51 PM

Matsui, though...where would he go?

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I didn't see Matsui mentioned in CET's post at all. While I'm sure Minaya wants to dump that contract, if he's that hot for Vidro and thinks he can land him and Hernandez, I don't think he'd push it TOO hard. Though, if it becomes a deal breaker, I think I'd bite the bullet and take on that contact to get Milledge. It's only a year, if I recall correctly. Take him on and either DFA him or cut him. That might just be me though.

I'd love to see this deal as suggested though. I think it makes enough sense for each team that it's plausible, even if some of the details might need to be ironed out.

#1032 SoxFanSince57


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Posted 31 January 2006 - 11:55 PM

Jason Bergman will be 25 in September. He was a rookie who threw only 19 innings (2.75 ERA) with the National when he was brought up. Jose Vidro (2B) is 32 with career numbers of .365; .467; and .302. It would seem that a lot would hinge on who the prospect is that the Mets would get. IMO it is crazy move to trade Lastings Milledge, and Xavier Nady for these guys. The Mets need starting pitching a lot more that a 2B. This sounds like a very poor deal for the Mets.

If “Boston is the most reluctant” trading partner, then the PTBNL must be coming from Boston and must be very good. Why else would they object to Lastings Milledge and Xavier Nady for Matt Clement and Alex Cora unless 1) they have a deal working for Wells or Clement; or 2) have worries about pitching depth if Clement goes?

#1033 Alacoldart

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Posted 31 January 2006 - 11:56 PM

I didn't see Matsui mentioned in CET's post at all.  While I'm sure Minaya wants to dump that contract, if he's that hot for Vidro and thinks he can land him and Hernandez, I don't think he'd push it TOO hard.  Though, if it becomes a deal breaker, I think I'd bite the bullet and take on that contact to get Milledge.  It's only a year, if I recall correctly.  Take him on and either DFA him or cut him.  That might just be me though.

I'd love to see this deal as suggested though.  I think it makes enough sense for each team that it's plausible, even if some of the details might need to be ironed out.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Could the Mets offer his contract to a Japanese team? And I really don't see the Red Sox taking on that contract only to eat it. They've already done that once this off-season with Lowell, but at least there is a sense that he will rebound and use the wall to regain his stroke. Matsui's been a disappointment in the US since Day 1 and has not shown many signs of getting any better.

#1034 Rough Carrigan


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Posted 31 January 2006 - 11:57 PM

Jay Bergmann:

http://thebaseballcu...-bergmann.shtml

24 year old who has been very successful in the minors, and in a short stint in the majors, since being converted to a reliever during the 2004 season. I'm for any deal that is basically Clement for Milledge, who should be able to fill replace Trot in right field in 2007 if hes here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


From John Sickels' 2006 book:
" . . low to mid 90's fastball. I should have paid more attention to how well he pitched after converting to relief during the second half of '04. He made further progress in '05 sharpening his command and refining a cut fastball to go with his regular fastball and changeup . . . Command is still an issue: his walk rate remains rather high an dhe will need to cut down on those free passes if he wants to keep an ERA lower than 3.00. Nevertheless, he's made such progress in the last year and a half that I don't want to rate him lower than GradeC+"

#1035 Lucen


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Posted 31 January 2006 - 11:58 PM

Could the Mets offer his contract to a Japanese team? And I really don't see the Red Sox taking on that contract only to eat it.  They've already done that once this off-season with Lowell, but at least there is a sense that he will rebound and use the wall to regain his stroke.  Matsui's been a disappointment in the US since Day 1 and has not shown many signs of getting any better.

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It would be similar to Lowell in that it would be the price you had to pay to get Milledge. It's enough of a price on top of Clement to stop and think before pulling the trigger, but in the end I try to get the Mets to subsidize a portion of it (1 mill, 2 maybe?) but probably do it.

Matsui wasn't mentioned though, so debating it is probably a moot point. :)

#1036 E5 Yaz


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Posted 01 February 2006 - 12:00 AM

let's see if i got this right. the mets, who were holding back on lastings milledge in a deal for manny ramirez, are willing to trade him in a deal that nets them llivan hernandez and jose vidro?

the nats have a problem at 2B, with soriano demanding to play there and vidro coming back. plus, the DO have jim bowden as the GM. but i can't imagine they believe llivan and vidro are equal to clement and cora.

sorry, seems like wish fulfillment to me

#1037 g0wave

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Posted 01 February 2006 - 12:03 AM

If this is true, it's a good deal for the Sox.  Milledge is the 4th outfielder and platoons with Trot, can play CF if need be, and Nady isn't a bad pickup either, but he'd be the 5th outfielder.  Could this be a sign they have plans to move Trot?  Or perhaps they haven't given up on moving Manny?  I certainly hope they're keeping Manny around, but with a 5th outfielder, it seems like they're preparing to move someone.

I do have a question.  Why would they throw in money if he pitches over 150 innings, rather than if he doesn't throw that many?  Was that a typo, or is there a reason they'd want money if he went over?

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Milledge won't go straight from AA to Boston this year; he's 21 and they'd park him in Pawtucket for the season. In the meantime they've just committed to 4 years of Crisp in CF. Nady would be the 4th outfielder.

Boston's reluctance regarding this deal is easy to understand -

Current starters are:

Schilling, Beckett, Wells, Clement, Arroyo, Wake, Papelbon

Wells wants to be traded and likely will be leaving us with 6 starters if you count Papelbon. Clement being traded takes us down to 5 forcing us to to rely on Paps and putting us in a position that one injury puts us in a tough spot. I don't think they want to force Lester although I'm sure we'd be fine with Dinardo or another starter filling in a few spots if needed.

Nonetheless, I'd do the deal but I understand the caution and hey, maybe Minya will throw us another prospect :)

Edited by g0wave, 01 February 2006 - 12:36 AM.


#1038 Rough Carrigan


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Posted 01 February 2006 - 12:15 AM

If the real reason for Theo leaving was that the team was taking too much of a win it now, sign the big name free agent posture and not trying to build young for the future, wouldn't he very much want to do this deal?

#1039 Deweys New Stance

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Posted 01 February 2006 - 12:54 AM

It just seems obvious that Matsui has to be part of this discussion for there to be any hesitation on the part of Boston. I know Matsui is an albatross, but unless I'm mistaken he's only a one-year, $8 mm albatross. Perhaps the version that has Livan Hernandez going to New York has the Sox on the hook for roughly half of his contract, and perhaps there's another version where Livan stays in DC, and the teams split Matsui's contract three ways (like the way Mike Hampton's deal got spread around several years ago).

#1040 Harry Hooper


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Posted 01 February 2006 - 12:56 AM

Sox may be holding back as they really want to stick to not having Papelbon in the rotation right out of the gate. Wells, stay or go, is then the issue.

Theo said he wanted to sit down with Wells in ST. I suspect that timeline may be moved up, so that the FO will know whether Wells will accept being in Boston for 2006.

A potential alternative is having Papelbon in the rotation as the #5, but as an old-style #5, meaning he gets skipped as off-days allow. Schilling & Co. go on 4-days rest, which G38 says is his preference. That would cut down on Papelbon's innings somewhat.

#1041 sox junky

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Posted 01 February 2006 - 12:56 AM

Sorry guys I left out the part about Manaya getting Livan Hernandez also. Or at least being inerested in him as a significant part of the mix.
You're right without him it doesn't seem like much of a deal , but you have to remeber that Vidro is only two years removed from All-star type numbers and he is a Manaya type player / Hispanic..... I really have faith in at least some formation of this deal going down. This guy who gave me the info has been in on everything this offseason and is really convinced something is really in the works , and that Manaya is really hot after vidro.

Doesn't Soryano make Vidro very expenadble anyway?

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Just curious if this is the same guy who told you about the Arroyo-Beam deal for Reed and Ohman deal? That one didn't happen.

#1042 Nomars Last Twitch

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Posted 01 February 2006 - 01:30 AM

Just curious if this is the same guy who told you about the Arroyo-Beam deal for Reed and Ohman deal?  That one didn't happen.

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THAT was from that fake rumor website. Please don't accuse CET of throwing out bulls**t, he really does have a source.

#1043 Alacoldart

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Posted 01 February 2006 - 01:36 AM

It just seems obvious that Matsui has to be part of this discussion for there to be any hesitation on the part of Boston.  I know Matsui is an albatross, but unless I'm mistaken he's only a one-year, $8 mm albatross.  Perhaps the version that has Livan Hernandez going to New York has the Sox on the hook for roughly half of his contract, and perhaps there's another version where Livan stays in DC, and the teams split Matsui's contract three ways (like the way Mike Hampton's deal got spread around several years ago).

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I'm with Dewey on this one. And if the Mets were willing to eat any of Matsui's contract, I would think there'd be a few teams in the league interested in his services either at SS or 2B. The Reds strike me as one team, since their current option at short is Aurilia. Yes, they want pitching, but you never know what they're going to do. I think that the Mets could give a couple million back, but don't see them going much higher and certainly not for half the contract.

If the Sox could turn around and deal Matsui with an arm prospect, I'd say do it. But there's no guarantee they can and I can't see this FO basically throwing away the better part of $8 million just to get a top prospect.

#1044 67WasBest


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Posted 01 February 2006 - 01:37 AM

I too share the concern about lessening the depth of our rotation. Is it possible the recent discussins between the FO and Wells are to guage whether there is any chance he returns here in 06? And if so, I would guess the hesitation to do the deal is because he answered in the negative. If that is the case, would they do the deal and backfill Clement with Weaver, or just go with Papelbon (with Dinardo as 6th option and Lester as 7th)?

I'd take on more risk for 2006 if we could obtain Milledge.

#1045 woofer

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Posted 01 February 2006 - 01:39 AM

let's see if i got this right. the mets, who were holding back on lastings milledge in a deal for manny ramirez, are willing to trade him in a deal that nets them llivan hernandez and jose vidro?

the nats have a problem at 2B, with soriano demanding to play there and vidro coming back. plus, the DO have jim bowden as the GM. but i can't imagine they believe llivan and vidro are equal to clement and cora.

sorry, seems like wish fulfillment to me

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I agree with you as far as it seems a little too good to be true as reported. If the Sox had to take on Matsui, it would make a little more sense. However, I don't think it was ever established that Manny did not get traded to the Mets because the Mets were unwilling to include Milledge. I think the Sox wanted Milledge + a lot more for Manny, and the Mets were unwilling to do that. That is not evidence that Milledge (a guy yet to have a full season in AA) is untouchable.

This price does seem a little low. Crossing my fingers.

#1046 Gambler7

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Posted 01 February 2006 - 01:39 AM

THAT was from that fake rumor website. Please don't accuse CET of throwing out bulls**t, he really does have a source.


No it was not. He said it was from a very good source and the guy is affiliated with a major newspaper and had a remarkably good off-season. It's a legit question to ask.

#1047 woofer

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Posted 01 February 2006 - 01:40 AM

I too share the concern about lessening the depth of our rotation.  Is it possible the recent discussins between the FO and Wells are to guage whether there is any chance he returns here in 06?  And if so, I would guess the hesitation to do the deal is because he answered in the negative.  If that is the case, would they do the deal and backfill Clement with Weaver, or just go with Papelbon (with Dinardo as 6th option and Lester as 7th)?

I'd take on more risk for 2006 if we could obtain Milledge.

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Nice 1,000th post. I still think Wells has every intention of coming back, but maybe you are reading the tea leaves right.

#1048 sox junky

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Posted 01 February 2006 - 01:43 AM

THAT was from that fake rumor website. Please don't accuse CET of throwing out bulls**t, he really does have a source.

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Jeez... I'm not accusing anyone of anything. Alright, maybe I'm accusing you of being oversensitive. :)

Anyways, I could have sworn CET wrote about this deal (Arroyo, etc for Reed, etc) in members only and said this guy who told him had been pretty accurate. I think he described him in much the same way.

I'm sure CET has a source and I'm sure this source has told him these things. I'm questioning the accuracy of the source, not CET. But, whatever... As CET has said, "you can believe it or not." This seems way too good to be true so I choose to not believe it.

#1049 k-factory

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Posted 01 February 2006 - 01:54 AM

The only reason I see Boston being the team holding this deal up (assuming this is legit--and I am not questioning CET here, just seems too good to be true) is that they realize that they also have to deal Wells and then they have to hope Paps can last a full season and that Beckett and Schilling are healthy.  Gambles I would take to get a guy like Milledge, but gambles nonetheless.

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Maybe this is a big reason Theo wants to talk to Wells as mentioned in the Globe Article, hopefully to convince him to stay here. If Theo can do that he likely pulls the trigger (assuming there is even a deal on the table).

It is plausible for all parties:

Mets: going all in since Pedro and Glavine ain't getting any younger. Vidro replaces Matsui to boost the offense. Bergmann is another piece in the long line of new bullpen arms. But Livan has to be the linchpin in this deal. No way Minaya gives up his top prospect unless it nets him a solid reliable piece for the 06 campaign (you would think). Plus, at the risk of profiling, Vidro and Hernandez fit a particular trend in Minaya's offseason pursuits.

Nationals: This team is in a holding pattern that could get ugly. The sale of the team has been delayed as MLB negotiates a stadium deal. They've got to stay competitive and have some appeal for that elusive buyer while at the same time pare payroll. Taking a declining Vidro off the books has to be appealing but replacing Livan with Clement is a head scratcher. Cora is probably a good throw-in because anything is an upgrade over Guzman and if the Nats trade Soriano at the deadline like they should, Cora could take over 2B. In the end though, they would have to be getting something more than just the freedom from Vidro's contract you would think.

Boston:
Pros: Great prospect that fits within the philosophy of stacking the farm with talent, getting younger etc.
Decent 4th OF that can back up CF.
Potentially risky pitcher off the books, making room for Arroyo or Papelbon in rotation.

Cons: Thinning the rotation.
Question marks with Wells wanting to be traded.
Already have a very good CF in the minors and 4 years of a darn good CF in the bigs.
Already have a decent 4th OF in Mohr with good splits against lefties and is a much better defensive player than Nady.
Additional compensation.

:) The hesitation is justified in my book. Till the Wells thing is resolved at least. Obviously a very tempting deal if its out there.

#1050 Alacoldart

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Posted 01 February 2006 - 02:07 AM

The hesitation is justified in my book. Till the Wells thing is resolved at least. Obviously a very tempting deal if its out there.

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I disagree. If Wells still wants out and they can trade Clement for greater value, Papelbon slides neatly into the 5th spot. Maybe the Nats will take Matsui since, as you say, anything is an upgrade over Guzman. Maybe that's why the deal hasn't happened yet, because DC and NY are debating over how much (if any) of Matsui's contract will be paid by the Mets and how much (if any) of Clement's contract will be paid by the Red Sox.

Whenever that kind of money changes hands, it tends to bog down negotiations. All that said, I'm still not convinced that this deal is anywhere near happening. Not that I don't trust that CET believes his source is reliable or anything, but just that it looks a little lopsided for a certain team in Flushing, even with Hernandez, unless they can get rid of Matsui in the process.

Wells is a non-factor in the decision to make the trade, however...or he at least should be. Sliding Paps into the rotation if Boomer is traded leaves a spot open for Vermilyea (thus not needing to offer him back to Toronto), DiNardo, or Van Buren, not to mention the chance Lester or Hansen could win it in Spring Training.