141 replies to this topic

[Hairps]

The New York Mets have agreed to a trade for two-time Cy Young Award winner Johan Santana, giving up four prospects to acquire the left-handed ace of the Minnesota Twins, according to two high-ranking Twins officials with knowledge of the talks and a person close to Santana.

The deal is pending the Mets and Santana reaching agreement on a six- or seven-year contract extension and that Santana passes a physical; they have been granted a 48 to-72-hour window to do so. Santana has a no-trade clause that he will waive if agreement is reached on a contract extension.

The Mets paid a high price in prospects to land Santana, agreeing to send the Twins outfielder Carlos Gomez and pitchers Phil Humber, Deolis Guerra and Kevin Mulvey.

Source: http://www.usatoday....s-santana_N.htm

Edited by Hairps, 01 February 2008 - 07:15 PM.

[RedSoxinIsrael]

Our offer was better than the Mets offer.

But who cares, we get to keep the prospects, save the money, watch Santana go to the NL and not have to worry about the Yanks getting him (in FA or trade).

Finally we can move on with the offseason.

[86spike]

The Twins are the big losers here. That's not a very good return, all things considered.

I suspect that sending him to the NL was a relatively important factor to them.

And as much as I wanted Santana... this result is OK, too.

[bosox1025]

The Twins must have wanted him out of the AL or Boston wasn't as interested as we were lead to believe.

Gomez, Humber, Mulvey and Guerra? I admit I don't know much about Mulvey or Guerra but I find it hard to believe that offer trumps the supposed Red Sox proposals.

Keeps him away from the Yankees and out of the AL which is a victory but having wasted an embarrassing amount of hours refreshing various websites for news, this result leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

[Yazdog8]

The Twins must have wanted him out of the AL or Boston wasn't as interested as we were lead to believe.

Gomez, Humber, Mulvey and Guerra? I admit I don't know much about Mulvey or Guerra but I find it hard to believe that offer trumps the supposed Red Sox proposals.

Keeps him away from the Yankees and out of the AL which is a victory but having wasted an embarrassing amount of hours refreshing various websites for news, this result leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

That depends if the Red Sox hadn't modified their proposals as they felt other teams were dropping out of the bidding.

Either way, Johan is out of the AL and out of Yankee hands, so maybe now we can get on with figuring out where Coco is going and how we get another reliable power arm for the pen.

[SoxScout]

That depends if the Red Sox hadn't modified their proposals as they felt other teams were dropping out of the bidding.

FWIW, Gammons has said this is not the case as it is just not how Theo does business.

[HighHeat]

Our offer was better than the Mets offer.

This is not necessarily true.

First, we don't really know what the Sox offered, only what was reported. It was reported several times at the winter meetings that the Sox and Twins had a "done deal." What do we know, really?

Second, the Mets system was not/is not as strong as the Sox system, but those players represent prospects #2, #3, #4 and #7 on John Sickels top 20 list for the Mets. For better or worse, the Twins are getting the cream of the Mets crop, and they are moving Santana somewhere that they won't have to face him regularly.

For the record, I prefer the packages I've heard rumored to have been offered by the Sox, but I also know our prospects better and there is significant bias in my judgement.

Edited by HighHeat, 29 January 2008 - 04:23 PM.

[templeUsox]

Wow. That's an awful return for Johan Santana. You really can't understate how poorly of a job Bill Smith played his hand here. They ended up getting no premium prospects for the best pitcher in baseball. Only the most ardent optimist can tell me that Carlos Gomez, who has tools but no polish, qualifies as a premium prospect. Truly an awful deal for the Twins.

[jsinger121]

Wow. That's an awful return for Johan Santana. You really can't understate how poorly of a job Bill Smith played his hand here. They ended up getting no premium prospects for the best pitcher in baseball. Only the most ardent optimist can tell me that Carlos Gomez, who has tools but no polish, qualifies as a premium prospect. Truly an awful deal for the Twins.

If none of these prospects mount to anything he will have a very short tenure as a GM.

[Buzzkill Pauley]

The Twins must have wanted him out of the AL or Boston wasn't as interested as we were lead to believe.

Gomez, Humber, Mulvey and Guerra? I admit I don't know much about Mulvey or Guerra but I find it hard to believe that offer trumps the supposed Red Sox proposals.

Keeps him away from the Yankees and out of the AL which is a victory but having wasted an embarrassing amount of hours refreshing various websites for news, this result leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

I expect the Twins were handcuffed by the enormous contract extension that Santana wanted. I'd have to imagine both the Yankees and Red Sox offers were contingent on Santana agreeing to a 5-year or less extension -- up to 6 years max. Since he was apparently willing to hold out for a longer number of years at top money, the Mets had the perfect opportunity to swoop in with an MLB-ready 5-tool position player as well as their top pitching prospect -- not something either AL club seemed willing to do. We'll see which package turns out to have the most long-term value, but I'm satisfied with this result.

[Paradigm]

Phil Hughes > this entire package. The same is true for Ellsbury, and possibly even Lester and Lowrie.

I still think the best deal the Twins could have received was Santana for Hughes, and any other players from the Yankees would have been icing on top.

But HighHeat makes the best point: we don't know what the Yankees or Sox ever offered, only what was rumored and reported.

[WalletTrack]

Three months of speculation ends with a "eh" and a *shrug*.
Sox and Yanks end up the winners here with Johan out of the AL.
Of course its pending still the deal just can't frigging end can it.

[DieHardSoxFan1]

My first thought is that the Sox' offer was better

If the deal being reported by USA Today is indeed accurate -- Humber, Mulvey, Guerra and Gomez for Johan Santana -- then the New York Mets just absolutely stole the best pitcher in baseball.

Since the Winter Meetings in early December, you got the sense that both the Sox and Yankees wanted the other to make the deal for Santana. Whichever team traded for Santana would not only have to surrender 3-4 very good minor leaguers in return, but it would also have to give Santana the richest contract ever awarded to a pitcher.

Edited by DieHardSoxFan1, 29 January 2008 - 04:34 PM.

[Sea Dog]

If none of these prospects mount to anything he will have a very short tenure as a GM.

You could say that with any trade he would have struck. Lester's had his ups and downs for parts of two seasons, and we know Crisp is magic with the glove but can be awful at the plate. After that, the Red Sox offered two prospects. Here, they get four prospects, which might be what they preferred from the start if they couldn't get Hughes.

[templeUsox]

Since the Winter Meetings in early December, you got the sense that both the Sox and Yankees wanted the other to make the deal for Santana.

No I didn't. I got the sense that both teams didn't want the other to get Santana, but neither wanted Santana as well.

[ScubaSteveAvery]

You could say that with any trade he would have struck. Lester's had his ups and downs for parts of two seasons, and we know Crisp is magic with the glove but can be awful at the plate. After that, the Red Sox offered two prospects. Here, they get four prospects, which might be what they preferred from the start if they couldn't get Hughes.

Except with Lester and Crisp you get two players who have showed success in the majors. Crisp has even won a GG and if cancer hadn't derailed Lester he might be a better pitcher than now. With four total prospects, there is a chance none of them sniff the big leagues and end up being fringe players or career minor leaguers. That is a big risk to take for a rookie GM trading the best pitcher in the league.

Edit: My personal thoughts on the deal is that the Mets are big winners and Smith is the big loser. I think for Santana, you have to get at least one slam dunk prospect/player in return, and Smith got none.

Edited by ScubaSteveAvery, 29 January 2008 - 04:43 PM.

[PedroSpecialK]

I have a very hard time thinking that the Mets fleeced the Twins. The Twins and Terry Ryan (who's still in the organization), along with the current GM Smith, have been among the best evaluators of pure talent in the game for the past decade, so I don't think they'd trade the best pitcher in the world for 4 pieces of drek. Gomez has tools but is not polished, not to mention being rushed by the Mets. With their current OF pretty much set outside of a CF, I can see the Twins starting him in AA and allowing him to continue on a normal development path. Pelfrey adds another arm to the Twins' wealth of pitching prospects, while Guerra and Mulvey both have decent ceilings. I still think the Sox' package was better, but for the Twins' purposes this may end up being the right deal.

edit: and this is assuming the Sox' package was as reported, which I also have a hard time believing if this is the deal the Twins accepted. The more I think about it, the less I like this deal for the Twins. For the next few years I feel like I have to give Ryan/Smith the benefit of the doubt if only because of their track record. If none of these players (or one, even) comes to fruition as a major leaguer, some heads will roll in the Twin Cities.

Edited by PedroSpecialK, 29 January 2008 - 04:51 PM.

[Jeff Van GULLY]

I think that the Twins saw Gomez and Ellsbury as almost a wash and really didn't like Masterson that much vis a vis Humber. It is the only explanation that I can think of. Other than the Sox lowering the offer. Perhaps Lowrie + Masterson was not even a combo offered to the Twins in the final bidding.

I seem to remember that the Twins wanted near major league talent, oh well...

Edited by Jeff Van GULLY, 29 January 2008 - 04:45 PM.

[j44thor]

The real beauty of this will be the next 72hrs while the Mets steal some of the Giants thunder with the media.
That and the chances are pretty good Johan will be pitching against the MFY for the forseeable future.

[opes]

FWIW, the Twins recieved the Mets #2,3,4, and 7 top ten prospects

1.Fernando Martinez, of
2.Deolis Guerra, rhp
3.Carlos Gomez, of
4.Kevin Mulvey, rhp
5.Eddie Kunz, rhp
6.Brant Rustich, rhp
7.Philip Humber, rhp
8.Jon Niese, lhp
9.Nathan Vineyard, lhp
10.Robert Parnell, rhp

EDIT: Meh, I missed HighHeats inclusion of this info in his post. My apologies.

Edited by opes, 29 January 2008 - 05:19 PM.

[Yazdog8]

I seem to remember that the Twins wanted near major league talent, oh well...

The Twins new ballpark is scheduled to open in 2010, that's when they are looking to be really competitive. The theory is that when they're out of their horrible Metrodome lease, they'll be able to spend a bit more $$$.

[satyadaimoku]

Sweet. This is the best case scenario as far as I'm concerned. Adding Santana would have been such a Yankee move, especially if the deal involved Ellsbury. I like this team so much more with Jacoby than Johan. Equally importantly, now the Yankees don't get him. Thank you, New York Mets.

[Pumpsie]

Sweet. This is the best case scenario as far as I'm concerned. Adding Santana would have been such a Yankee move, especially if the deal involved Ellsbury. I like this team so much more with Jacoby than Johan. Equally importantly, now the Yankees don't get him. Thank you, New York Mets.

I totally agree, satya. This is good for the Sox, good for baseball, good for everybody. Best case scenario, indeed. The NL needs to get more competitive for top players and the Mets, being the NL's richest franchise, have to lead the way. Now, this raises the bar for other NL teams to spend some money.

I'm happy that we get to keep our kids. I like Ellsbury and Masterson especially. And I think Lester is going to improve a lot this year. Now, we also have lots of pieces we can trade for anything we need.

I couldn't be happier about this turn of events.

[PrimusSucks626]

I'm happy with this. The Red Sox didn't need Santana, and I've always thought there were more useful things we could be getting with Crisp.

Like, say, a catching prospect.

[Sea Dog]

I totally agree, satya. This is good for the Sox, good for baseball, good for everybody. Best case scenario, indeed.

I would hold off on the "good for baseball" part. There weren't many teams that could afford Santana's salary demands, and all thre in the bidding here just so happened to be New York and Boston teams. While Pohlad is a cheapskate who doesn't pony up for players when he needs to -- or for that matter, a new stadium when he foots taxpayers with the bill -- the whole Santana did highlight one of baseball's problems.

[PooNani]

thank fucking god. twins had the chance to really set themselves up for the future and blew it.

[opes]

I would hold off on the "good for baseball" part. There weren't many teams that could afford Santana's salary demands, and all thre in the bidding here just so happened to be New York and Boston teams. While Pohlad is a cheapskate who doesn't pony up for players when he needs to -- or for that matter, a new stadium when he foots taxpayers with the bill -- the whole Santana did highlight one of baseball's problems.

Could you elaborate more on why you dont think this is good for baseball? Theres plenty of teams that could afford it. Look at the major contracts in the past few years, and tally em up. I count 9 teams could afford if if they so desired, aka trades, salary dump, 3 wishes, etc - MFY, Sox, Mets, Angels, Cubs, Mariners, Dodgers, Phillies, and Giants.
The problem was the trading cost the twins wanted.
I dont like to make such an outrageous claim, but I would think had he not been traded, those 9 teams would have been in a crazy bidding war.
I agree Pohlad is a cheapskate. But the twins, A's, and others play a different game.
Its still good for baseball, because the twins get something out of it, rather than 1 pick after the Mets or someone else gets him in FA.
Bottom line- Twins get picks, and stay a cheap team. The Mets get a great lefty to compete in the NL. And the Yanks and Sox stay even keel. Better competition = Good for baseball.

[Papis Walkoff]

The Twins must have wanted him out of the AL or Boston wasn't as interested as we were lead to believe.

Gomez, Humber, Mulvey and Guerra? I admit I don't know much about Mulvey or Guerra but I find it hard to believe that offer trumps the supposed Red Sox proposals.

Keeps him away from the Yankees and out of the AL which is a victory but having wasted an embarrassing amount of hours refreshing various websites for news, this result leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

It's a terrible trade for the Twins. Humber and Mulvey were dissapointments in the Mets farm system. Somez is a nice player....don't know much about Guerra....but the Twins turned down Hughes/Cabrerra/+++ and Ellsbury/Lowry/Masterson?? For this?? I'm glad this is over and I'm GLAD the Sox weren't successful. Although I like Santana, the thought of him making 25M and Beckett making 10M was never a comfortable feeling for me. Just thinking about Ellsbury in centerfield makes me !

[bankshot1]

. The Yankees will very likely make the playoffs for the foreseeable future.

(from a just locked thread)

That's Cashman's bet, but with the Tigers getting stronger and Seattle (if they get Bedard) getting stronger, unless the kids mature and pitch well in '08, the runner-up in the AL East is not guaranteed post-season spot, and he may not collect.

IMO the Mets and Sox won today,

MFY-too soon to tell.

Twins-lost.

[glennhoffmania]

I tried posting this on the main board but the thread was locked:

Any team that is excited about not landing the best pitcher in baseball with a package comparable to the Mets were offering is either poor or stupid.

I totally agree. I don't see the upside of not getting another stud SP to go along with Beckett, Dice-K and a couple of the kids for the next few years. This whole idea of wanting to see the kids mature in Boston seems so pointless to me. The goal is to win games, and Boston would seem to be a better team with Santana than with Ellsbury/Lowrie/Masterson/whatever. If I was an Oakland or Cleveland fan, and signing Santana would drastically limit future moves due to payroll constraints, I'd agree that it would be a bad move. But for a team that is already spending approximately $150m in payroll, I don't see how losing out on him should be viewed as some sort of victory.

[David Laurila]

....but the Twins turned down Hughes/Cabrerra/+++ and Ellsbury/Lowry/Masterson??...

Reportedly. It is possible that these offers were never officially on the table. They may have been, but we don't know that.

[NomarRS05]

Great deal for the Mets, and good deal for the Red Sox because Santana doesn't put the Mets into the upper-eschelon. This very well may put them over the edge in the N.L., but their 2-4 starters in the playoffs aren't good enough to hang with the beasts in the A.L. like Detroit, New York, Boston or even Anaheim or Cleveland. John Maine isn't elite, Pedro and El Duque are on their last legs and Oliver Perez makes for a great candidate to get trounced in a World Series start ALA Jeff Francis.

I'm surprised a team like Philadelphia that is on the cusp already didn't go out and grab him. Oh well, he's just another National Leaguer now.

[Myt1]

Reportedly. It is possible that these offers were never officially on the table. They may have been, but we don't know that.

It's also possible that you're all figments of my imagination, too, but shouldn't we go with the best information currently available? I think there's a greater level of likelihood than "may have been," no?

I can't agree with the people claiming the Sox won here. They had a chance to give up decent talent for a superstar, and it didn't come to fruition.

[Foulkey Reese]

So what's the best Twins forum to gauge fan reaction to all of this?

Edited by Foulkey Reese, 29 January 2008 - 06:11 PM.

[Todd Benzinger]

There are news reports linked in the locked Santana/mets thread and the Santana/news thread that report that the well-known Lester/Crisp and Ellsbury packages were still in play (although with different players, possibly, in the back-end of the deals). It seems that for whatever reason, the Twins preferred the Mets package.

Really doesn't make much sense, if that's the case... But that is the best info we have.

I do think that it's possible that Masterson AND Lowrie weren't both included in both deals, though...

Edited by Todd Benzinger, 29 January 2008 - 06:09 PM.

[mad]

How do you not get the teams #1 prospect when your trading the best pitcher in baseball?

[flymrfreakjar]

Reportedly. It is possible that these offers were never officially on the table. They may have been, but we don't know that.

Olney was just on ESPN saying that the Sox's offers had indeed dwindled and that while they were still packaged around Lester/Coco/Ellsbury, the other players in the deal had changed. Apparently this was enough to make the Twins turn to the Mets.

[twoBshorty]

I'm in Minnesota right now and the reaction to this trade among the fanbase is not terribly positive. "Hey, guess what, we just traded Santana to the Mets for shit!" was the yell I just heard out on the sidewalk, and I think it sums the general feeling up pretty well. These fans were sure he was going to Boston or the Yankees.

[Wingack]

It's interesting to see that on the whole Yankee fans, Red Sox fans, and Mets fans are all happy tonight.

[jschip1]

I tried posting this on the main board but the thread was locked:
I totally agree. I don't see the upside of not getting another stud SP to go along with Beckett, Dice-K and a couple of the kids for the next few years. This whole idea of wanting to see the kids mature in Boston seems so pointless to me. The goal is to win games, and Boston would seem to be a better team with Santana than with Ellsbury/Lowrie/Masterson/whatever. If I was an Oakland or Cleveland fan, and signing Santana would drastically limit future moves due to payroll constraints, I'd agree that it would be a bad move. But for a team that is already spending approximately $150m in payroll, I don't see how losing out on him should be viewed as some sort of victory.

I had convinced myself for a while that I would rather the Sox keep the prospects (Ellsbury, Lester, whoever else) than trade for Santana, but now that he is going to the Mets I realize that I was deluding myself. I would much rather have Santana than any of those prospects to make the Red Sox starting rotation easily the best in the game.

And the fact that there are so many teams that would have been willing and able to offer Santana a big contract, not just the Yankees and Red Sox, as was noted above, makes me think this has no bearing on "what's best for baseball." I wish the Sox would have snagged him.

Edited by jschip1, 29 January 2008 - 06:44 PM.

[nvalvo]

It's interesting to see that on the whole Yankee fans, Red Sox fans, and Mets fans are all happy tonight.

Twins fans, on the other hand...

[Doctor G]

This trade will sell a lot more season tickets in NY than in Minny. there really doesn't seem to be any way the Mets don't meet Santana's price. In retrospect, if Hughes really was on the table the Twins certainly blew it. This might not be good for baseball on the whole, but it is definitely great for baseball in New York and Boston, and even to a certain extent Philly.

Edited by Doctor G, 29 January 2008 - 06:31 PM.

[Boggs26]

So I'm happy with this. I think Santana on the Sox would have been awesome, but I'll be just as happy to watch some of our prospects finally make it in the majors for the Sox. Right now the biggest question in my mind is this - When do we start the "Santana in the NL projections" thread. Seriously, how insanely good will Santana be in the National League...we may see some absurd numbers out of him next year and that in and of itself could be fun to watch...

[Yazdog8]

So what's the best Twins forum to gauge fan reaction to all of this?

The Star-Tribune has an insider blog. Already a large amount of posts...mostly negative.

http://nc.startribun...?p=320#comments

[swany]

The Star-Tribune has an insider blog. Already a large amount of posts...mostly negative.

http://nc.startribun...?p=320#comments

If you want to avoid some of the crazies, you could also check the comments at sethspeaks.net once he posts (should be pretty soon). I know a lot of people in MN and I'm yet to hear anyone that is happy about the trade.

[January]

I'm not familiar with the Mets farm, but this is all I could find.

Fernando Martinez

So the Mets top prospect is a AA outfielder? For comparison, here is the guy who was a throw in on the Gagne trade. Engle Beltre

I'm actually curious, as I'm sure there is something I could learn here.

From the trade:

Deolis Guerra
Carlos Gomez
Kevin Mulvey
Philip Humber

I does seem like Hughes > entire package like Corsi said.

Note: The Mets advance people REALLY quickly. Makes it really hard to say anything from the stats.

[kazuneko]

That depends if the Red Sox hadn't modified their proposals as they felt other teams were dropping out of the bidding.

Either way, Johan is out of the AL and out of Yankee hands, so maybe now we can get on with figuring out where Coco is going and how we get another reliable power arm for the pen.

according to Adam Rubin (who was just interviewed on Sportscenter) when the Twins called to ask for the Yanks final offer they were told they Yanks were no longer interested. When they then called the Sox apparently they also recieved less in response (he actually suggested the Sox were already aware that the Yanks would not be in the bidding) than has been previously rumored.
If this is true, it seems like that it is possible neither the Yanks or Sox' previously rumored deals were still available and as a result the Twins were left with no choice but to accept the Mets substantially less impressive offer.
Unbelievably bad GMing by Smith.

[Rough Carrigan]

according to Adam Rubin (who was just interviewed on Sportscenter) when the Twins called to ask for the Yanks final offer they were told they Yanks were no longer interested. When they then called the Sox apparently they also recieved less in response (he actually suggested the Sox were already aware that the Yanks would not be in the bidding) than has been previously rumored.
If this is true, it seems like that it is possible neither the Yanks or Sox' previously rumored deals were still available and as a result the Twins were left with no choice but to accept the Mets substantially less impressive offer.
Unbelievably bad GMing by Smith.

He thought Mr. Hankee would crumble and give up even more than their initial offer and somehow, maybe by plying him with DVD's of The Ghost Whisperer, Cashman kept him in check.

[Lynchie]

This is the best for us in my opinion. I'm so glad they did not want to give up all those chips for a 29 year old commanding that kind of dough. The NL lineups should help make him some good personal seasons I would venture to say. His salary will be mighty and he'll be a mighty force in their rotation. It pleases me that he is not in the ALE as well.

Edited by Lynchie, 29 January 2008 - 07:00 PM.

[kazuneko]

He thought Mr. Hankee would crumble and give up even more than their initial offer and somehow, maybe by plying him with DVD's of The Ghost Whisperer, Cashman kept him in check.

Its a shame really. Up until the point when he decided to not take Steinbrenner's Hughes offer Smith had played things beautifully. By leaking the Jacoby rumors he had gotten the Yanks to cave on the prospect that it seems like he most wanted (Hughes) then, inexplicably he thought he could get more and then sat on two good offers for so long that both the Sox and the Yanks moved on.
The man got greedy and it will probably cost him his career.