299 replies to this topic

[yankeelurker]

I believe the yanks. They did not want to give up Hughes. But, I think they salivated over JOhan. Once they made the tough decision to include Hughes the trade never materialized. They probably figured that the Twins are just too afraid to deal him to the yanks. If the Twins are going to deal with the Yanks, Yanks will have to overpay and blow the market out of the water.

That's the only explanation. If they didn't feel the yankees pitchers weren't good enough, then the Yanks would have never been involved in the first place.

The Yankees package is superior to the Red Sox in every reported incarnation. I can't see how anyone can argue quantity over quality for a HOF pitcher. Now, if Sox would do Ellsbury and Lester, that's a different story.

Say what you want, but a trade of him even to Boston wouldn't be greeted with the complaints and sneers of the fan base. People still tend to think of the Red Sox as a regular team, not a financial superpower that can acquire anything it wants. If Santana goes to the Sox, and they do a $150 million deal, it will be official however. There will be two bully teams in baseball. The Red Sox will have become the Yankees.

[twototango]

Hank says Yankees offcially out...

http://www.nytimes.c...amp;oref=slogin

What is it with all these "I"s and "Me"s? Is there a bigger douchebag in professional sports at this point than Hank Steinbrenner?

Nobody believes Hank at all. Nor should they. When the Red Sox are close to a deal for Santana, the Yankees will crawl back into the sweepstakes. It shouldn't be a suprise to anybody when, not if, that happens.

Edited by twototango, 04 December 2007 - 08:12 PM.

[Rockin Robbin]

Hank will use the "Minnesota contacted us" argument to explain why they will likely increase their offer and resume talks in the coming days.

[yankeelurker]

What is it with all these "I"s and "Me"s? Is there a bigger douchebag in professional sports at this point than Hank Steinbrenner?

Nobody believes Hank at all. Nor should they. When the Red Sox are close to a deal for Santana, the Yankees will crawl back into the sweepstakes. It shouldn't be a suprise to anybody when, not if, that happens.

Since he owes the team, it is I and Me.

A bit bombastic, but since he signs the checks, and it is HIS team, don't you think? He is speaking like a normal person, not someone trained or coached. He obviously isn't a trained media professional.

He thinks of the Yankees as him, and the yankees as his team.

Is he incorrect?

[P'tucket, rhymes with...]

Since he owes the team, it is I and Me.

A bit bombastic, but since he signs the checks, and it is HIS team, don't you think? He is speaking like a normal person, not someone trained or coached. He obviously isn't a trained media professional.

He thinks of the Yankees as him, and the yankees as his team.

Is he incorrect?

Truer words were never spoken, although I don't think that's what you meant.

Except for the thing about his father owning the team, this is completely correct.

[yankeelurker]

Truer words were never spoken, although I don't think that's what you meant.

Except for the thing about his father owning the team, this is completely correct.

He is his father. I think George had a brain transplant. I love The Boss II.

LOL.

Yanks should try and pry sheets for IPK, Horne.

[jarules1185]

Since he owes the team, it is I and Me.

A bit bombastic, but since he signs the checks, and it is HIS team, don't you think? He is speaking like a normal person, not someone trained or coached. He obviously isn't a trained media professional.

He thinks of the Yankees as him, and the yankees as his team.

Is he incorrect?

He's just being honest and saying the things that people usually leave unsaid as implicitly true. Its shitty negotiating tactics because it is overly revealing and it can potentially insult the other team, but I dont think its some kind of evil complex.

[jayhoz]

I believe the yanks. They did not want to give up Hughes. But, I think they salivated over JOhan. Once they made the tough decision to include Hughes the trade never materialized. They probably figured that the Twins are just too afraid to deal him to the yanks. If the Twins are going to deal with the Yanks, Yanks will have to overpay and blow the market out of the water.

That's the only explanation. If they didn't feel the yankees pitchers weren't good enough, then the Yanks would have never been involved in the first place.

The Yankees package is superior to the Red Sox in every reported incarnation. I can't see how anyone can argue quantity over quality for a HOF pitcher. Now, if Sox would do Ellsbury and Lester, that's a different story.

Say what you want, but a trade of him even to Boston wouldn't be greeted with the complaints and sneers of the fan base. People still tend to think of the Red Sox as a regular team, not a financial superpower that can acquire anything it wants. If Santana goes to the Sox, and they do a $150 million deal, it will be official however. There will be two bully teams in baseball. The Red Sox will have become the Yankees.

You can't honestly believe this horse shit. The much more obvious answer from a baseball perspective is that the Twins did not feel that the yankees offer represented enough value to agree to trade Johan Santana to them. If the Twins end up trading Santana to the Sox they will have deemed the Sox offer superior to the yankees offer. It really is that simple. You need to come to grips with the fact the Twins are evaluating the talent involved in these potential trades differently than you. If it helps you sleep at night then feel free to believe that the baseball ops guys in the Twins organization are dumber than you are.

Why in the world would the Twins be afraid to send him to the yankees and not afraid to send him to the defending Word Series champs who have a superior pitching staff and a bona fide ace?

Your premise makes absolutely no sense what so ever.

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

Ian Kennedy had better turn out to be a stud or the decision to forego Johan simply to hold onto him is going to look mighty foolish.

I've not seen Ian, but from everything I've read, I just can't understand how the MFYs didn't include him. I mean the MFYs aren't like any other team. They shouldn't need to worry about developing 3rd or 4th starters - they should worry about getting #1s like Johan.

[Rough Carrigan]

Actually a lot of reports seemed to say essentially that the Twins think Melky's value is not that great at all so a deal of Hughes + Melky + lesser prospect is essentially a deal totally dependent on Hughes for value. Any injury encountered, any rut of mediocrity fallen into adjusting to new coaches and a new team or whatever and they've got almost nothing for their ace.

The third guy in the deal had to be good because the second guy offered wasn't seen as anything special.

[yankeelurker]

You can't honestly believe this horse shit. The much more obvious answer from a baseball perspective is that the Twins did not feel that the yankees offer represented enough value to agree to trade Johan Santana to them. If the Twins end up trading Santana to the Sox they will have deemed the Sox offer superior to the yankees offer. It really is that simple. You need to come to grips with the fact the Twins are evaluating the talent involved in these potential trades differently than you. If it helps you sleep at night then feel free to believe that the baseball ops guys in the Twins organization are dumber than you are.

Why in the world would the Twins be afraid to send him to the yankees and not afraid to send him to the defending Word Series champs who have a superior pitching staff and a bona fide ace?

Your premise makes absolutely no sense what so ever.

Only Red Sox fans and Bill Smith (maybe) think that the Red Sox package is better than the Yanks package. Let's be honest about it. Hughes is the best piece --by far-- that is mentioned in connection with Santana. Not close. Lester is not as highly regarded as Hughes. We have established that.

The Twins can say the Yankees package is not enough, but then can't trade him to the Sox for a lesser package. That's ridiculous.

Would you trade Hughes and Melky for Coco and Lester?

That's what it comes down to. Considering the talent and the ceiling of the players, the Yankees' base is better. I too questions whether the Melkman can play CF fulltime, that's a legit gripe, but Coco is overpriced and can't hit. Lester isn't a better prospect than Hughes.

The other minor leaguers like Lowrie do have some flaws. Lowrie isn't the center piece, you have got to be kidding me. From what I have heard from Heyman on the radio, he says other executives feel that the Yankes package, because of Hughes, is superior.

Do you honestly believe that the Sox offer is better?

The best argument you have is spreading risk and yadda, yadda, yadda. For Johan Santana you aren't giving up a player with any all-star potential.

This is the Schilling deal all over again. When the Yankees walk in the store, the price is more. That's fine. Smith can do whatever he wants. Yanks will be fine.

You just have to tell me how the second best pitching prospect in all of baseball and the starting CF on a 93 win team isn't superior to what the Sox are offering.

There is debate as to the value of Coco v Melky. There is no argument that Hughes is a better get than Lester.

So, this deal is for Jed Lowrie?

Essentially the deal for the Sox is John Lester for Johan Santana. Everything else is a spare part.

That's a farce.

Edited by yankeelurker, 04 December 2007 - 10:32 PM.

[Rough Carrigan]

We can debate Melky Cabrera's value but you can't really say that part of his value is having been centerfielder for a 93 win team. Will his next team get the value of ARod's hitting cleanup or Jeter setting the table?

I would bet that if the #1 guy in the group offered by the mfy's was a position player that the Twins would be less worried about him not panning out and less worried about being sure that they got value from the third guy.

[Oil Can Dan]

There's just so much wrong in that post that I don't even know where to begin. Or what the point of responding is. BUT:

Would you trade Hughes and Melky for Coco and Lester?

How isn't the question "Would you trade Hughes, Melky & POS '2nd tier prospect' for Coco, Lester, Masterson & Lowrie"?

Talk about "farce"...

[86spike]

What is it with all these "I"s and "Me"s? Is there a bigger douchebag in professional sports at this point than Hank Steinbrenner?

I still think the two-headed monster of James Dolan and Isiah Thomas have him beat, but he's doing his best to catch up!

As for the 'Hughes is the best piece!!!!!!!!!' argument... you're right that Hughes is the best name mentioned. But Hughes is coming with Melky Cabrera and a midling prospect. That's all NY is offering.

Melky Cabrera would be a 4th OFer on the Twins. They cannot play a guy with his defensive limitations in CF now that they have Delmon Young and Michael Cuddyer at the corners. Minnesota would still have to find a CFer and Melky would be dead weight because he doesn't hit well enough to start at a corner OF position in the bigs.

Melky's got negative value for the Twins.

[EvilEmpire]

Ian Kennedy had better turn out to be a stud or the decision to forego Johan simply to hold onto him is going to look mighty foolish.

I've not seen Ian, but from everything I've read, I just can't understand how the MFYs didn't include him. I mean the MFYs aren't like any other team. They shouldn't need to worry about developing 3rd or 4th starters - they should worry about getting #1s like Johan.

Well, the Yankees have been struggling with starting pitching for quite a few years now. Banking on one big name each year sure as hell hasn't worked out for them. At this point I can understand why they don't want to trade away depth.

[jsinger121]

Well, the Yankees have been struggling with starting pitching for quite a few years now. Banking on one big name each year sure as hell hasn't worked out for them. At this point I can understand why they don't want to trade away depth.

Yes but the big name pitchers they got were all past their prime like Randy Johnson and Kevin Brown. This is Johan Santana, a 29 yr old lefty in the prime of his career who is a difference maker. Ian Kennedy is not a difference maker and should not be a deal breaker.

[jayhoz]

Well, the Yankees have been struggling with starting pitching for quite a few years now. Banking on one big name each year sure as hell hasn't worked out for them. At this point I can understand why they don't want to trade away depth.

Doesn't this point of view clearly explain why the Twins might (note I say might) value the Red Sox package more highly than the yankees offer?

[yankeelurker]

Yanks are out of it. They are just not committed to dealing Hughes. Boston is going to have a great team.

Kind of funny isn't it. Yanks are holding onto their prospects and Sox are spending like drunken sailors.

[Rockin Robbin]

After spending the amount on money New York did on Posada, Rivera and A-Rod I'd say they are on that ship drinking as well.

[jayhoz]

Yanks are out of it. They are just not committed to dealing Hughes. Boston is going to have a great team.

Kind of funny isn't it. Yanks are holding onto their prospects and Sox are spending like drunken sailors.

Wait.....woah....hold up. I thought the Red Sox were presenting a package of players that was inferior to what the yankees are offering? If that is the case how are the yankees being frugal and the Red Sox spending like drunken sailors?

[TheoShmeo]

Yanks are out of it. They are just not committed to dealing Hughes. Boston is going to have a great team.

Kind of funny isn't it. Yanks are holding onto their prospects and Sox are spending like drunken sailors.

At this point, no one has pulled the trigger and while the Yankees appear to be out of the Santana race, no one should be surprised if they change their minds and wind up with Santana. But if the Sox end up with one of the top pitchers in baseball, I don't think that many baseball fans without an agenda will view that as spending like a drunken sailor. Instead, it will be viewed as a move that will give the Sox one of the best rotations -- on paper at least -- in recent memory.

Also, what makes you say that the Yankees are not committed to dealing Hughes? If the reports we've read are to be believed, the Yankees made Hughes available and the sticking point was what they would give up in addition to Hughes.

Edited by TheoShmeo, 04 December 2007 - 11:35 PM.

[yankeelurker]

Wait.....woah....hold up. I thought the Red Sox were presenting a package of players that was inferior to what the yankees are offering? If that is the case how are the yankees being frugal and the Red Sox spending like drunken sailors?

The Ian Kennedy package is better than what the twins are getting. The Hughes package is clearly superior.

But, Smith miscalculated. He is going to end up with a lesser deal for it. Yanks aren't being frugal, they are just not going to pay more than what someone else does. Yanks called Smith's bluff. They are out of it.

Is Smith going to do a lesser deal?

Yanks don't need Johan Santana. Neither do the Red Sox. Those two teams should be in the 90 plus win category anyway. A Ben Sheets would be fine for the Yanks if he is healtlhy come playoff time.

Yanks should keep their youth, it's cheap, with a high ceiling, and they can use the saved money to help out in the bullpen or buy CC Sabathia next year.

[Sam Ray Not]

Yanks are out of it. They are just not committed to dealing Hughes. Boston is going to have a great team.

Kind of funny isn't it. Yanks are holding onto their prospects and Sox are spending like drunken sailors.

Hm, I guess if you consider holding firm on Lowell @ 3/$37.5M or Schilling at 1/$13M "drunken." Even when you factor in 5/$110M (or whatever) for Santana, we're still taking on roughly half of the overall financial burden the Yankees took on in reupping the 32-year-old A-Rod. Meanwhile, we may well be holding onto our two top young guys (still holding my breath) while saving $8-10M over the next couple of years in CF.

Looks to me like that drunken sailor may have parlayed like fifty bucks into a wild night of passion with Jessica Alba and Melissa Theuriau...

[EvilEmpire]

Yes but the big name pitchers they got were all past their prime like Randy Johnson and Kevin Brown. This is Johan Santana, a 29 yr old lefty in the prime of his career who is a difference maker. Ian Kennedy is not a difference maker and should not be a deal breaker.

Randy Johnson, Kevin Brown, Javy Vasquez, Irabu, Pavano, Jeff Weaver, Contreras...sure most of them weren't big names, but most years the Yankees have been going after the biggest name available with piss poor results. I agree that Santana is about as close to a sure thing in the prime of his career as possible. At least until he blows his arm out taking out the trash. Under the circumstances, I can see why the Yankees value Kennedy as they do. And I agree. I'm not at all confortable giving up two good pitchers and a serviceable outfielder who seems like he can hang in Yankeeland for a guy that will get signed to what will likely be a five or six year contract at 20M+ per.

Doesn't this point of view clearly explain why the Twins might (note I say might) value the Red Sox package more highly than the yankees offer?

Certainly, assuming the Twins take the Red Sox package. I think the Twins are rational actors that will do what they think is best according their needs and based on the level of risk they want to assume. If Theo pulls it off he's a total stud though. When I see what Boston is offering I can't help but think of those 4-1 and 5-1 fantasy league deals where only one elite talent gets moved. The ones that always get protested and then upheld by the commissioner. They really piss me off. And Theo's will too, if he closes the deal.

And for the record, I am fully cognizant and aware that this isn't fantasy baseball being played. I'm just saying.

[Doctor G]

If the Yankees pull back Hughes as they claim to be doing doesn't this put pressure on him to be something more than a solid fourth starter. likewise doesn't Kennedy have to be better than Mussina at least . I really think it will be a lot tougher this year for Hughes at least.

Edited by Doctor G, 05 December 2007 - 12:02 AM.

[The_Powa_of_Seiji_Ozawa]

This is the Schilling deal all over again. When the Yankees walk in the store, the price is more. That's fine. Smith can do whatever he wants. Yanks will be fine.

That train left the station a long time ago. What did the Yankees give up for Bobby Abreu? What did the Yankees give up for Raul Mondesi (who was a good player at the time, who was averaging over 20HR and 20SB for 7 straight years, and a great defender)? What did the Yankees give up for Roger Clemens the first time? Those are just a few that come to mind.

You just have to tell me how the second best pitching prospect in all of baseball and the starting CF on a 93 win team isn't superior to what the Sox are offering.

If Hughes is the "second best pitching prospect in all of baseball" then who is the best, Joba? Oh no, that's right, it's Ian Kennedy. Silly me.

Who cares that Melky was the starting CF on a 93 win team. It's pretty meaningless. Maybe they had 93 wins in spite of Melky.

There is debate as to the value of Coco v Melky.

No, unless you're talking present salary, there is no debate. Coco is better than Melky. Melky's offensive upside is what Coco already accomplished in Cleveland. Defensively, Coco is superior. Melky has a much stronger arm, which comes in handy when he has to throw balls that roll past him to the wall, balls that Coco likely would have caught.

[badger]

But if the Sox end up with one of the top pitchers in baseball, I don't think that many baseball fans without an agenda will view that as spending like a drunken sailor.

This whole exchange is hilarious. Firstly, I would think that most baseball fans would view this as one of the richest teams in baseball buying a player - which isn't too far from the truth. The Sox are one of the only suitors - not due to their superior prospects - but because they are one of the few teams that can meet Santana's contract demands.

The number of Yankees fans crying about the relative value of their prospects without looking at what the Twins needs are is certainly funny - but not as funny as statements that amount to -- "fine - we don't need Santana - I'm taking all my toys and going home!" or the even funnier "The Sox are spending money like drunken sailors. Sure - let them waste money making Santana the richest pitcher in baseball - he isn't worth it!" (after watching their team sign the richest position player in baseball, the richest reliever in baseball and the richest catcher in baseball).

Jeez - no wonder why the rest of the baseball world is getting sick of the whole Sox-Yanks arms race. It is mind numbing - please stop.

As a Sox fan, I am just glad to see that there isn't a boob like Hank at the helm - conducting negotiations through the New York Post, making ridiculous deadlines, and insulting the other parties involved in any potential deal. Both teams have tremendous resources, but the way the Sox do business when contrasted to the recent Yankees negotiations gives me confidence that the Sox have a plan and will likely use their resources much more wisely than an organization led by an impetuous nincompoop.

[Walpole Joe's Neighbor]

How predictable is the reaction here? You just knew if the Sox got Santana (which isn't even confirmed) that you'd hear all sorts of revisionist history in this thread. The general dynamic of Sox and Yankees fans hasn't changed much actually. Yes there would be some Sox fans saying "we don't need him" but take a look at the posts and from the beginning there has been an overwhelming consensus that they should get Santana if they could. If the Yanks had got him or somehow still do get him most SOSH folks here would concede that this was clearly bad news for the Sox if not saying "we're screwed". And the whole "our package of prospects were better than yours" sounds like the worst kind of whining. The bottom line is that your front office, namely Hankenstein handled this whole thing very poorly. There was no need for all the posturing and setting deadlines and all that stuff. I'm not saying they should or shoudln't have included Kennedy in the deal or Tabatha or whoever, but just that the peripheral stuff certainly didn't help matters at all.

[EvilEmpire]

No, unless you're talking present salary, there is no debate. Coco is better than Melky. Melky's offensive upside is what Coco already accomplished in Cleveland. Defensively, Coco is superior. Melky has a much stronger arm, which comes in handy when he has to throw balls that roll past him to the wall, balls that Coco likely would have caught.

There is plenty of reasoned debate on this topic all over the place here. Framing it without taking into account salary, cost control, the fact that Coco is five years older than Melky...well, I'm not sure how productive that is. No question that Coco is better defensively.
There is also no question that in the last two year of MLB play, Coco had an OPS+ of 77 and 83. Melky had an OPS+ of 95 and 89. Since those were Melky's age 21 and 22 seasons, and his only MLB experience, I think its a little premature to suggest that his offensive upside is a known quantity at this point.

But again, this has been discussed ad nauseam around here. It inevitably comes down to which variables a team wants to value more.

edit: spelling

Edited by EvilEmpire, 05 December 2007 - 01:04 AM.

[newyorker]

As a Yankee fan I am not displeased how this is working out. I posted days ago, when it appeared that the Yankees would get Santana that i would rather they did not. I did not want to give up Hughes (and you cannot get a pitcher like Santana without giving up talent). I am pretty excited about Hughes' upside and would like to see, for better or worse, how it plays out while pitching for the Yankees. Cabrera may be a good CFer, or he may only be a 4th outfielder....it will take more than a couple of years by age 23 to tell me that. But trading him means we sign an overpriced Jones or Rowand or put Damon back in CF, neither of which I want to see. I have no high expectations for Kennedy, although I would like to be pleasantly surprised,

Of course the RS will be quite formidable with Santana and the rest, but I can easily bite the bullet for a yr or two in order to see Hughes, Kennedy, Joba and the rest develop. Maybe in 3 yrs I will look back and wish we had made the deal. Or I might be really glad we did not. Who knows.

But the journey will be enjoyable. That is something I could not always say the past few years watching one hired gun after another fall short.

[Wingack]

Seems to me all the "noise" discussion they are trying to get rid off the main board has all gotten dumpted into this thread.

[Foulkey Reese]

Seems to me all the "noise" discussion they are trying to get rid off the main board has all gotten dumpted into this thread.

You could always post some pictures of Bobcats...

[Wingack]

You could always post some pictures of Bobcats...

I am gaining a reputation . The bobcat pictures and Jacoby Ellsbury jokes over at NYYF is a much more enjoyable read than the last few pages of this thread.

Edited by Wingack, 05 December 2007 - 12:49 AM.

[Foulkey Reese]

"To tell you the truth, toward the end, Minnesota negotiated in good faith. They really did," Steinbrenner said. "I have no problem with them."

Wow, that's so mature of him to not have a problem with the Twins trying to get a good return for one of the best pitchers on the planet.

But during the beginning they weren't negotiating in good faith?

http://www.sportslin.../story/10512297

Edited by Foulkey Reese, 05 December 2007 - 12:57 AM.

[EvilEmpire]

Wow, that's so mature of him to not have a problem with the Twins trying to get a good return for one of the best pitchers on the planet.

But during the beginning they weren't negotiating in good faith?

http://www.sportslin.../story/10512297

This guy is going to be hard to live with. Instead of a tyrant like his pop, he sounds more like a fan.

A young, emotional fan.

Unfortunately, I imagine the NY media will just eat it up and say enough nice about him to keep the man talking. I expect to see a lot of stories with the words "candor" and "refreshingly honest" type nonsense in them.

It sucks.

[Rockin Robbin]

Rotoworld:

The Boston Herald indicates that the Red Sox and Twins may be through talking for the night.

Neither the Twins nor the Red Sox seem to be feeling much sense of urgency here. The Red Sox still don't actually need to make the deal, and the Twins may figure better offers will come along later, though they risk upsetting Johan Santana if they continue to leave everything up in the air. The Herald is also reporting that the Red Sox have told Ryan Kalish’s agent that his client’s name never came up in talks with the Twins, even though he was rumored for most of the day to be in Boston's new 5-for-1 proposal.

If Boston is the only major player still involved in these negotiations and have made several proposals in which Minnesota can choose from that include players they feel are superior to those of New York or any other team, then is what preventing this deal from being finalized? The longer these discussions go on between Boston and Minnesota without a deal being finalized, the more you have to think that either Boston is not as committed to this as we believe or Minnesota is not all that content with their packages and are hoping somebody else jumps in to the mix.

As for that other pitcher on the trade market, Johan Santana, it’s an increasingly inexplicable subject, since it appears the Twins are in no hurry to conduct business on the matter. That could all change overnight with one phone call but the Red Sox organization appears at the moment to be as curious as anyone else what the Twins’ next move will be.

http://www.bostonher...sports/red_sox/

Edited by Rockin Robbin, 05 December 2007 - 02:07 AM.

[yankeelurker]

That train left the station a long time ago. What did the Yankees give up for Bobby Abreu? What did the Yankees give up for Raul Mondesi (who was a good player at the time, who was averaging over 20HR and 20SB for 7 straight years, and a great defender)? What did the Yankees give up for Roger Clemens the first time? Those are just a few that come to mind.

If Hughes is the "second best pitching prospect in all of baseball" then who is the best, Joba? Oh no, that's right, it's Ian Kennedy. Silly me.

Who cares that Melky was the starting CF on a 93 win team. It's pretty meaningless. Maybe they had 93 wins in spite of Melky.
No, unless you're talking present salary, there is no debate. Coco is better than Melky. Melky's offensive upside is what Coco already accomplished in Cleveland. Defensively, Coco is superior. Melky has a much stronger arm, which comes in handy when he has to throw balls that roll past him to the wall, balls that Coco likely would have caught.

Coco can't hit. He has fallen off the map the last two years.

Hughes was considered with Homer Bailey the second best prospect in baseball coming into the year. He was hurt, and he didn't have same velocity when he came back (more accurately, couldn't sustain), but late in the year showed tremendous ability. Is this any doubt?

I would still put Hughes above Bucholz in the prospect rankings, don't ya think? Hughes is further along and actually has pitched in the playoffs and was a part of the rotation for the yanks.

Hughes gave up 64 hits in 72.1 innings and his BAA was .235. whip 1.28.

Mind you that was coming off two LEG injuries, and that had him losing 2-3 MPH off his fastball, and unable to throw over 90 MPH after the 4th inning because he got tired. And, he walked more people than expected.

In the playoffs, he picked up the yanks only win.

For a guy who turned 21 in june, that's pretty good. Need more evidence?

Hughes in the minors:

Hughes has never posted a WHIP over 0.91, which came in 21 starts last year at Double-A Trenton. Over the course of the 237.1 innings pitched in his minor league career (coming into 2007), Hughes had a 21-7 record, 2.13 ERA, 269:54 K to BB clip, and of course, a WHIP of 0.86.

The more I look at Hughes, the more I want him to stay. Especially if that velocity returns to his minor league level pre-leg injury level.

And on coco:

Coco hit .268 with a .330 obp and a .382 slugging percentage.

Melky .273, .327 and .391

Virtually identical.

One player is a 28 year old CF who has declined in two years and has no arm, but has good range.

The other is a switch hitting 23 year old with one of the best CF arms in the league, average range at best in CF.

One is 5 years younger and still developing. The other one shows no signs of recapturing his two years in Cleveland which make you wonder if he had some help doing it (wink, wink).

Crisp can't hit folks. Melky struggles with plate discipline. He at least can spray the ball to all fields.

Who do you want again?

Edited by yankeelurker, 05 December 2007 - 02:22 AM.

[Jack Sox]

Seriously, yankeelurker, the nyyfans bs needs to stop and it needs to stop now.

I'm sure Phil Hughes struggled with his "LEG" injuries this past season. Meanwhile, Jon Lester struggled with cancer. Now, read this again, I'm not saying for a second that Hughes isn't regarded as the better prospect. All I'm saying is the whole dismissal of Lester's major league performance in relation to Hughes getting a pass for his fucking "LEG" injuries is just absurd.

Take off the blinders or don't post.

I'm not even going to bother with the rest of your shit.

[yankeelurker]

Seriously, yankeelurker, the nyyfans bs needs to stop and it needs to stop now.

I'm sure Phil Hughes struggled with his "LEG" injuries this past season. Meanwhile, Jon Lester struggled with cancer. Now, read this again, I'm not saying for a second that Hughes isn't regarded as the better prospect. All I'm saying is the whole dismissal of Lester's major league performance in relation to Hughes getting a pass for his fucking "LEG" injuries is just absurd.

Take off the blinders or don't post.

I'm not even going to bother with the rest of your shit.

Blinders?

I think Lester has been pretty good from what I have seen. Who said dismissive?

Did Lester's cancer prevent him from having a great year? No one has ever said that he is limited right now. His velocity etc. was ok. He seemed healthy when he came back. I wish him well. Lester is healthy from what I gather and looks to be a good prospect.

Hughes struggled with his legs because he couldn't push off and generate power like he used too. I am not giving anyone a pass. You are your numbers.

Weird complaint. I don't know where it's coming from. Who said Lester had a bad year, or bad numbers?

The reason Hughes' legs are mentioned is to explain the loss of velocity from his minor league days. If you want to say Lester wasn't sharp because he had so much time off for chemo, that's certainly logical. But, he was pretty good when he came back.

Just weird...

[Jack Sox]

Wow, editing the Lester bits out of your last post? Classy.

I'm done.

sorry, everyone else.

Edited by Jack Sox, 05 December 2007 - 03:09 AM.

[billy ashley]

Coco can't hit. He has fallen off the map the last two years.

Hughes was considered with Homer Bailey the second best prospect in baseball coming into the year. He was hurt, and he didn't have same velocity when he came back (more accurately, couldn't sustain), but late in the year showed tremendous ability. Is this any doubt?

I would still put Hughes above Bucholz in the prospect rankings, don't ya think? Hughes is further along and actually has pitched in the playoffs and was a part of the rotation for the yanks.

Hughes gave up 64 hits in 72.1 innings and his BAA was .235. whip 1.28.

Mind you that was coming off two LEG injuries, and that had him losing 2-3 MPH off his fastball, and unable to throw over 90 MPH after the 4th inning because he got tired. And, he walked more people than expected.

In the playoffs, he picked up the yanks only win.

For a guy who turned 21 in june, that's pretty good. Need more evidence?

Hughes in the minors:

Hughes has never posted a WHIP over 0.91, which came in 21 starts last year at Double-A Trenton. Over the course of the 237.1 innings pitched in his minor league career (coming into 2007), Hughes had a 21-7 record, 2.13 ERA, 269:54 K to BB clip, and of course, a WHIP of 0.86.

The more I look at Hughes, the more I want him to stay. Especially if that velocity returns to his minor league level pre-leg injury level.

And on coco:

Coco hit .268 with a .330 obp and a .382 slugging percentage.

Melky .273, .327 and .391

Virtually identical.

One player is a 28 year old CF who has declined in two years and has no arm, but has good range.

The other is a switch hitting 23 year old with one of the best CF arms in the league, average range at best in CF.

One is 5 years younger and still developing. The other one shows no signs of recapturing his two years in Cleveland which make you wonder if he had some help doing it (wink, wink).

Crisp can't hit folks. Melky struggles with plate discipline. He at least can spray the ball to all fields.

Who do you want again?

Not much logic here:

Franklin Morales played in 3 games for Col during the play offs, he must be 3 times better than Hughes.

Crisp has at one point been a good hitter, in fact it wasn't that long ago. He's also one of the best defensive CFs in baseball. Crisp has been (wink wink) hurt/ dealing with nagging injuries the past two seasons (not that I expect him to be much more of a hitter)

Melky has never hit well for any amount of time, he's also not a good fielder.

You know you're right, Hughes is a fantastic prospect but I'd be willing to wager no one here would have ever thought otherwise had you never posted.


-Also you seem to forget about all the other pieces the Twinkies would get in this deal.

[RedSoxinIsrael]

What do Yankee fans here say about the report that the Yankees turned down a Hughes-Cabrera-Marquez-Hilligoss offer?

[thomasbp]

What do Yankee fans here say about the report that the Yankees turned down a Hughes-Cabrera-Marquez-Hilligoss offer?

If that story is true (considering the source I have a lot of doubt) then I suspect Cashman has more influence than most people think. The only reason to reject that deal from the yankees perspective is either 1) it came after a Hank announced "deadline" (which would be just plain old stupid) or 2) Money.

On that note it does seem like the money aspect of trading for Santana is being largely ignored. Six years 20 mil+ is an awful lot to commit for a pitcher. Its hard enough to stomach if you pay big bucks and a lot of years to a free agent that underperforms (Jason Giambi says hi), it would be extremely tough to pay big bucks to a guy you traded for, watch him underperform while the guy(s) you trade away have great years for a different team.

[twototango]

What do Yankee fans here say about the report that the Yankees turned down a Hughes-Cabrera-Marquez-Hilligoss offer?

Cashman is a moron if he denied that proposal. Somehow I think he's smarter than that, and there is more to this story. Look at the source.

[jon abbey]

wow, I've never even heard of Hilligoss. if that's true and Boston ends up with him, that's depressing (and does put a fair amount of pressure on Hughes going forward, IMO).

[bankshot1]

What do Yankee fans here say about the report that the Yankees turned down a Hughes-Cabrera-Marquez-Hilligoss offer?

I'm not a Y-fan, but given that it was the first night of Hanukkah, I's say that someone lost their dreidel, and needed something to spin.

[Manny10]

One is 5 years younger and still developing

Really, developing?

I still dont understand this logic in regards to Melky by yankee fans cabrera has never shown any signs of doing anything good with the bat at any point in time.


Melky
20 AA
426 AB
275 322 411 with 11 SB

21 MLB
280 360 391 12 sb

22 MLB
273 327 391 13 sb

Vernon Wells
21 AAA
492 AB
243 311 432

22 AAA
413 AB
281 328 453

23 MLB
608 AB
275 305 457

24 MLB
678 AB
317 359 550


Corey Patterson
20 AA
261 329 491

23 MLB
329 AB
298 329 511 16 sb

24 MLB
631 AB
266 320 452 32 sb

Coco Crisp
22 AA
355 AB
301 366 428 26 sb

23 AAA
225 AB
360 426 511 20 sb

24 MLB
491 AB
297 344 446 20 sb

25 MLB
594 AB
300 345 465 16 sb

David Dejesus
23 AA/AAA
286 AB
308 398 472

24 MLB
363 AB
287 360 402

25 MLB
461 AB
293 359 445

All the above players are center fielders of varying skill levels and as you can see their minor league numbers above AA compared pretty favoroubly to their future major league numbers regardless of the age they were when they put them if you dont believe me look at andruw jones, nick markakis, jeter, chris young. they all showed glimpses be it slugging or on base percentage wise. Melky on the other hand has never eclipsed a 360 obp above AA, has barely hovered around a 400 slugging percentage, has never stolen more than 20 bases, does not compare at all to any of these players defensively but somehow we are supposed to believe that since hes "young" somehow hes magically going to produce numbers he hasnt at any point in his proffesional baseball career?

Coco on the other hand has proved in both the Minors and Majors he could approach or succeed the mid 400's slugging wise, play outstanding defense in center and left, be a force on the bases an impact which yankee fans truly underestimate in regards to coco and overate in the case of melky. recently coco has not shown slugging wise he can be counted on to approach the mid 400's slugging wise but the reason we as redsox fans and yankees fans harp on this is because he HAS key word HAS shown he can be counted on to produce at that level where as melky hasn't ever shown that, but because of his young age somehow gets a free pass in that regard. on a purely observational level the difference between two really isnt all that close either. Coco is an extremely fast person, which has a massive impact both defensively(range) and offensively 28 stolen bases this year 22 last and on the bases. Melky on the other hand has fringy speed for a center fielder, does not get good reads or take good routes to the ball, and most importantly is pretty filled out for being so young and his quickness and agility are very lacking(have you ever seen melky make one sliding or diving catch and I dont mean tumbling or tripping). yes he has a great arm no one denies that, but he is average(being nice) range wise and with his body type I can only see that declining.

[mt8thsw9th]

I would still put Hughes above Bucholz (sic) in the prospect rankings, don't ya think? Hughes is further along and actually has pitched in the playoffs and was a part of the rotation for the yanks.

Here is the problem, Buchholz reached innings pitched limits because he remained healthy all season, he wasn't an option for the Red Sox down the stretch and in the playoffs for this reason, and that they weren't as desperate as the Yankees for starting pitching.

[NYCSox]

Not quite sure where to put this - Joel Sherman today in the NY Post

How good is this Yankee package? Hughes is the surest thing, and he has a questionable work ethic and more of an injury history at 21 than Santana at 28. There are many baseball people who like Kennedy more than Hughes, but just as many who think he is a fifth starter. It is possible that outside of a strong Yankee lineup that protects him, Cabrera would be a fourth outfielder. The idea that all of these players are going to play well for a long period for the Yanks is folly, whereas barring catastrophic injury Santana is close to a sure thing.

Joel Sherman is a dirty Red Sox fan

[Foulkey Reese]

That's the first that I've heard about Hughes having a "questionable work ethic"

Very interesting, seems like somebody has an axe to grind